Self Fund Residency?

[NotAProgDirector]

This implies that a residency can be self funded if the person funding it does not require a visa (not sure about the OP, but many US-IMGs/DOs would not need a visa)

First, for the record, I think that self-funding a residency, or having residency be a "paying" position like medical school, is a horrible idea. Residents are doing work -- they are adding value to the hospital. They should be paid.

But the question asked was whether it would be permissible to self fund (or "creatively fund") a residency spot. In review of the ACGME rules, there's nothing that specifically forbids it. There is a vague rule that there need to be enough "resources" to support the program, and presumably the ACGME would specify that salary support constitutes such a resource. So although there is no specific rule, I think it's basically implied.

In any case, the last time this was tried, it didn't end well.

I, too, will be bowing out of this discussion. It's clear that the OP and I are now talking past each other.

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[Law2Doc]

The reason people accept 80-100 hour weeks is because there is such a shortage of these positions. They're able to abuse to the point of diminishing value their residents.
.

Actually people accept the 80 hour work week because there's a ton of material to learn and if you want to achieve some level of competence in 3-7 years you need to work long hours to get there. As you get more senior in residency you actually may dislike the work hour limits because there's often things you want to stick around for that you can't participate in because you will go over hours. If you wanted to work fewer hours for longer years, hospitals would actually probably be fine with that but it would be a foolish choice for most residents.

 

[Psai]

So you paid $200k in taxes meaning you probably earned $500,000+ a year and you still believe the government should subsidize your education?

Jeez.

Where do you think the government gets money from? Physicians pay much more into the system than we get. Let's not play games.

 

[FaisalResidency]

This is a thread for people that have not been able to get a residency in the US and alternative ways and the companies that are trying to disrupt the system to allow more people into the system.

I started this thread for those people and not for people that are already in the system to **** on us.

There are thousands of able medical doctors sitting in the US that aren't able to get a residency program and we need discussion about ideas to help them, not to be told i'm a foreigner
and a loser and I should get a job at taco bell.

Thanks!

 

[Law2Doc]

...
There are thousands of able medical doctors sitting in the US that aren't able to get a residency program and we need discussion about ideas to help them...

We have a system for matching people into residencies that is carefully regulated and also partially taxpayer subsidized. The only avenue in is through this system. And that's reasonable -- the US system is already one of the most open to foreign educated people, so it's a pretty generous system. So IMHO It's not really productive to complain about how the US system could be changed to let in all the people who haven't been able to get in the conventional way.

It might however be productive to figure out a good non-doctor plan B for the "thousands of able medical doctors" who aren't going to get training spots. That is where your focus ought to be. Figure out some ancillary path where you guys can use your background, but don't need the training. Create the next web-MD or UpToDate or e-medicine. Create a USMLE or MCAT review course or material. Get a job teaching at an offshore med school. There have to be opportunities out there more productive than hoping someone will revamp all of US residency funding and admission to let you in.

 

[FaisalResidency]

We have a system for matching people into residencies that is carefully regulated and also partially taxpayer subsidized.

When its 90% paid for by US taxpayers to the tune of $15 billion a year and the system is not producing enough professionals within an industry to have
50 million people without nearby access to physicians the system is broken and needs to be changed by entrepreneurs, not bureaucrats and the people
currently benefiting from the shortage.

 

[Law2Doc]

When its 90% paid for by US taxpayers to the tune of $15 billion a year and the system is not producing enough professionals within an industry to have
50 million people without nearby access to physicians the system is broken and needs to be changed by entrepreneurs, not bureaucrats and the people
currently benefiting from the shortage.

Again, some of us believe it IS producing enough professionals, they are just maldistributed. And we believe there's no easy fix for this. And this is where your argument forever fails, because if there is no agreement in medicine even of a shortage, let alone how to fix it, there's no way taxpayers are ever going to be asked to pony up more. And again, whether the US system is broken or not is really not a productive use of your time. See my post above. This is not getting changed in any time span that will ever help you personally even if we were all on the same page on what needs fixing. So be more productive - figure out something else you can do with your education. See my post above. Don't be a broken record hung up on the same verse. Don't seize onto the first sentence/tangent of my post above when the latter sentences are where most value to you personally lie. Figure out your plan B.

 

[Kazaki]

Just wondering if anyone has ever self-funded their residency? I heard of some gulf states arabs doing it so they can get residency positions as the money seems to have dried up there?

Anyone know or read anything about this?

To answer this in short. Yes. Saudi pays programs to accept its (horribly ****) national students. They do not take part in the match, even if they do, they're pretty much guaranteed a position. Case Western neurology is a leading example, which is why I do not respect anyone in that program.

 

[Psai]

To answer this in short. Yes. Saudi pays programs to accept its (horribly ****) national students. They do not take part in the match, even if they do, they're pretty much guaranteed a position. Case Western neurology is a leading example, which is why I do not respect anyone in that program.

PGY-4


Rana Abusoufeh, M.D.
Ayham Alkachroum, M.D.
Bayan Almarwani, M.D.
Omar Alsinaidi, M.D.
Hatim Attar, M.D.
Alireza Bozorgi, M.D.
Yogesh Gujrati, M.D.
Vishakhadatta Kumaraswamy, M.D.
Yasir Saleem, M.D.
Junaid Siddiqui, M.D.
Mahmoud Shaqfeh, M.D.
Thananan Thammongkolchai, M.D.


lmao when the current resident list looked like this, I didn't even bother applying to that program.

 

[AdmiralChz]

OP, why should US residencies accept sub-par applicants with dubious training? Fairness? Physician shortage? Can you imagine the backlash if these "physicians" were implicated in severe sentinel events or medical errors resulting in deaths? It would be a liability to even have them around. There's a reason WHO certifies legit foreign medical schools to cut down on bad physicians from entering the field. If you want a US residency you have to follow the rules just like everyone else. There are legitimate schools in almost every country - make sure you graduate from one.

 

[FaisalResidency]

Again, some of us believe it IS producing enough professionals, they are just maldistributed. And we believe there's no easy fix for this. And this is where your argument forever fails, because if there is no agreement in medicine even of a shortage, let alone how to fix it, there's no way taxpayers are ever going to be asked to pony up more. And again, whether the US system is broken or not is really not a productive use of your time. See my post above. This is not getting changed in any time span that will ever help you personally even if we were all on the same page on what needs fixing. So be more productive - figure out something else you can do with your education. See my post above. Don't be a broken record hung up on the same verse. Don't seize onto the first sentence/tangent of my post above when the latter sentences are where most value to you personally lie. Figure out your plan B.

So the ACGME believes there is a shortage, the AAMC believes there is a shortage but only you don't believe it?

 

[Kazaki]

PGY-4


Rana Abusoufeh, M.D.
Ayham Alkachroum, M.D.
Bayan Almarwani, M.D.
Omar Alsinaidi, M.D.
Hatim Attar, M.D.
Alireza Bozorgi, M.D.
Yogesh Gujrati, M.D.
Vishakhadatta Kumaraswamy, M.D.
Yasir Saleem, M.D.
Junaid Siddiqui, M.D.
Mahmoud Shaqfeh, M.D.
Thananan Thammongkolchai, M.D.


lmao when the current resident list looked like this, I didn't even bother applying to that program.

Haha. Just to be clear I am an IMG, I'm not bashing every IMG out there, and there probably are a good number of amazing doctors that graduate from the Middle East.
*clears throat* But probably not enough to fill an entire class of a residency program.
Peace out.

 

[mpdoc2]

PGY-4


Rana Abusoufeh, M.D.
Ayham Alkachroum, M.D.
Bayan Almarwani, M.D.
Omar Alsinaidi, M.D.
Hatim Attar, M.D.
Alireza Bozorgi, M.D.
Yogesh Gujrati, M.D.
Vishakhadatta Kumaraswamy, M.D.
Yasir Saleem, M.D.
Junaid Siddiqui, M.D.
Mahmoud Shaqfeh, M.D.
Thananan Thammongkolchai, M.D.


lmao when the current resident list looked like this, I didn't even bother applying to that program.

Realistically most of the competitive residency programs are filled with students whose name are foreign sounding as the most competitive students at the top programs don't have Anglo-Saxon names but are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants from other countries. Many of the names mentioned above are not even Arab or middle-eastern but Indian, so I'm sure not all of those grads are from Saudi-Arabia.

Don't be a bigot, get used to foreign sounding names in medicine, as that is the majority of physicians (unless you're in a hole in the middle of no-where).

 

[Psai]

Realistically most of the competitive residency programs are filled with students whose name are foreign sounding as the most competitive students at the top programs don't have Anglo-Saxon names but are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants from other countries. Many of the names mentioned above are not even Arab or middle-eastern but Indian, so I'm sure not all of those grads are from Saudi-Arabia.

Don't be a bigot, get used to foreign sounding names in medicine, as that is the majority of physicians (unless you're in a hole in the middle of no-where).

You ready to get off that high horse? Most top residency programs are filled with people with normal sounding names.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So the ACGME believes there is a shortage, the AAMC believes there is a shortage but only you don't believe it?

Both of those organizations have a vested interest in there being a shortage, so no I don't care what they think. It would be like the dairy farmer's association saying that we aren't drinking enough milk - suspect at best.

 

[mpdoc2]

You ready to get off that high horse? Most top residency programs are filled with people with normal sounding names.

Get out of your little redneck Drumpf supporting incestual cesspool of a town and realize we're not in the 1950s. BTW SDN isn't as private as you think. I wouldn't be espousing these bigoted thoughts right before I apply for residency if I were you.

 

[ItsAboutThePatient]

Hey ya all I'm about to drop a truth bomb on all of you. Under the socialist Obama regime, America is a total debter nation with no primary production, massive trade deficits, and a massive federal deficit. As far as I'm concerned if Saudi Arabia is writing checks to American institutions in exchange for services we should embrace that in every way possible. This kind of arrangement is a win-win; we get money for something and they get better docs.

Vote Trump in 2016, and keep the Saudis close. They are good friends to have.

PS: yes, this post was intentionally over the top but srsly crooked hillary is a train wreck

 

[gutonc]

You ready to get off that high horse? Most top residency programs are filled with people with normal sounding names.

You ready to stop being a racist a**hat?

 

[Mad Jack]

There are groups lobbying Congress, Labor groups and the ACGME at this moment to allow this. I think the point some people are missing is that an essential freeze in government funding has artificially inhibited the number of
positions available for MD's to enter a residency program to practice medicine.

If someone offers to pay the tuition at Harvard Business School, Yale Medical School or Stanford Law school are they buying their position?

Not at all. The institution whether a hospital or practice has to interview and assess the individual just as any program would and then decide whether the individual is acceptable.
As there are increasingly limited government funds, Graduate Medical EDUCATION cannot be free to future physicians any longer except to those that receive what I would call
a medicare "scholarship" to their residency.

I hope this clarifies my position that I feel is very logical and is truly a meritocracy but not one limited by cartel type behaviour on the part of institutions that artificially
reduces the supply of qualified physicians that can practice in this country.

And if they fail, they don't come back for year two, just like Med School, Law School etc. Consider Graduate Medical EDUCATION to be an education and not a
job.

Cheers!

Except it is not an education in the college sense, it is an apprenticeship. You don't pay for apprenticeships, you get paid for them per the law of the United States. Apprentuceships are, by legal definition, educational training programs in which you provide a valuable service in exchange for training and income. They are different than both internships and paid educational training. This is a big part of why you can't fund your own residency- you would be breaking not only ACGME rules but US labor laws.

 

[Mad Jack]

You are correct that this situation is illegal and a program director being bribed would cause ACGME to shut down the program.

What I'm discussing is an entire wholesale change in the funding of Graduate Medical Education to more of an extension of a paid Medical School rather than a job in which an employer has to lose
money unless they're subsidized by the government.

Because residents can bill for services, paid education is not allowed. If residents paid tuition, they would be considered students and thus legally unable to bill for services. Student clinicians cannot bill Medicare, be they nurses, PTs, OTs, or medical students. This would result in graduate medical education costing not only the 200k/year that each resident currently costs the government, but also the 100-200k in services that residents can currently have billed as long as attendings are overseeing them. This would make an internal medicine residency cost 900k-1.2 million, a price that would seriously limit the number of physicians willing to pay their way into medical education, reducing rather than increasing the number of physicians in the workforce.

 

[Mad Jack]

This is a thread for people that have not been able to get a residency in the US and alternative ways and the companies that are trying to disrupt the system to allow more people into the system.

I started this thread for those people and not for people that are already in the system to **** on us.

There are thousands of able medical doctors sitting in the US that aren't able to get a residency program and we need discussion about ideas to help them, not to be told i'm a foreigner
and a loser and I should get a job at taco bell.

Thanks!

You can create whatever thread you want, but the system exists in its current form for a reason. Our profession loathes the sort of changes you seem to think are fantastic ideas because they would have consequences that are very easy for us to see. But such consequences are very easily dismissed by those desperate for a spot such as yourself.

 

[Mad Jack]

You ready to get off that high horse? Most top residency programs are filled with people with normal sounding names.

I've worked at a very highly ranked IM program. We had a lot of first and second gen residents with traditional names. Asians and Middle Eastern Caucasians occupy a very large number of US MD spots and they aren't exactly named John Smith and Jane White.

 

[AdmiralChz]

Yikes this thread has gotten off the wheels big time... Woof.

 

[Psai]

Get out of your little redneck Drumpf supporting incestual cesspool of a town and realize we're not in the 1950s. BTW SDN isn't as private as you think. I wouldn't be espousing these bigoted thoughts right before I apply for residency if I were you.

I don't understand this comment. Drumpf? What are you babbling about? Nice try with the whole attempting to censor people on the internet with vague threats tho

You ready to stop being a racist a**hat?

Where's the racism bro? Lots of foreigners = undesirable program
Thought you were a pd or something so you should know but I guess you're just another typical ivory tower type who obsesses over political correctness

 

[deleted245139]

PGY-4


Rana Abusoufeh, M.D.
Ayham Alkachroum, M.D.
Bayan Almarwani, M.D.
Omar Alsinaidi, M.D.
Hatim Attar, M.D.
Alireza Bozorgi, M.D.
Yogesh Gujrati, M.D.
Vishakhadatta Kumaraswamy, M.D.
Yasir Saleem, M.D.
Junaid Siddiqui, M.D.
Mahmoud Shaqfeh, M.D.
Thananan Thammongkolchai, M.D.


lmao when the current resident list looked like this, I didn't even bother applying to that program.

Say what you will but I know several of those on this list personally and they are fantastic doctors.

 

[mpdoc2]

Say what you will but I know several of those on this list personally any they are fantastic doctors.

He's just a $hitty EM resident at a $hitty program jealous of those that are in better programs/specialties. Go have sex with your family Psai.

 

[Raryn]

Where's the racism bro? Lots of foreigners = undesirable program
Thought you were a pd or something so you should know but I guess you're just another typical ivory tower type who obsesses over political correctness

It's true, lots of graduates of med schools outside the US can be a sign of an undesirable program, as it is a sign that they may have had difficulty recruiting US grads. But the post said that *foreign names* means an undesirable program, not *foreign medical schools*. Lots and lots of US MD graduates are 1st-2nd-3rd generation immigrants with names traditional to their culture, myself included. To somehow imply that these students are a sign of a crappy program is to be an ignorant fool at best or a racist asshat at worst.

 

[Psai]

Sigh. You guys are all so busy trying to feel good about yourselves that you didn't get the point. Absolutely no racism intended. But congrats on being nonracists I guess thumbs up for everyone here that supports immigrants

 

[deleted245139]

He's just a $hitty EM resident at a $hitty program jealous of those that are in better programs/specialties. Go have sex with your family Psai.

Haha i mean... I happen to be an EM attending... But I appreciate the sentiment

 

[mpdoc2]

Sigh. You guys are all so busy trying to feel good about yourselves that you didn't get the point. Absolutely no racism intended. But congrats on being nonracists I guess thumbs up for everyone here that supports immigrants

It's like Trump saying he's supports black people. Team Trump and his supporters crack me up with their idiocy: http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...-trump-poll-number-brianna-keilar-sot-tsr.cnn

 

[Psai]

It's like Trump saying he's supports black people. Team Trump and his supporters crack me up with their idiocy: http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...-trump-poll-number-brianna-keilar-sot-tsr.cnn

wtf does trump have to do with this thread? you are really obsessed with that guy though, you should see someone about that

 

[mpdoc2]

wtf does trump have to do with this thread? you are really obsessed with that guy though, you should see someone about that

Ok since you're probably inbred and too slow to understand most things I'll spell it out for you. Trump's first words were (Mexicans are rapists) and he has espoused racists and bigoted views since he started running for president. Since you're also espousing the same racists views I'm equating you to him. Does that clear things up for you?

 

[BigRedBeta]

the limitation is beyond that - the site has to have enough patients/cases of specific types to go around to makes sure you get enough "experience" out of the residency, the ACGME determines how many residents can be adequately trained at a specific site

sometimes they might approve say 20 spot, but only give enough funding so it ends up being 15, then maybe the hospital decides to fund another 2, bringing it to 17. But they could never go past 20. And if they did they would likely lose accreditation because then the argument is that the education is compromised for all if they have say 25 residents when they were approved for 20.

it also raises ethical questions of like bribery

like, did the program take you because you are the most qualified or did you essentially bribe them?

so the issues aren't just purely funding

That would likely land them on probation, as the only program I ever heard of doing so fell afoul of the ACGME and ended up on probation due to a violation of the institutional requirements. Years ago, this was allowed, but not these days.

II.B. Financial Support for Residents: Sponsoring and participating sites must provide all residents with appropriate financial support and benefits to ensure that they are able to fulfill the responsibilities of their educational programs.

Late to the conversation but these caught my eye - There are institutions that could have more GME spots based on patient volumes but don't have the funding. Not sure if it is still the case, but the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences used to not independently fund GME positions - they made the decision that they would only have as many post training spots as CMS would fund, which I think is somewhere around 700, and not a single one more. That meant expanding any residency program was a zero-sum game with any department that wanted to add residents or a fellowship needed to take the spot from another specialty and justify why they deserved the spot. A few specialties like pediatrics could expand because resident funding was put up by the Children's Hospital. But the limitations were self imposed and there is a reasonable chance that programs there would have jumped at the opportunity to create a spot with external money.

Second, the language "appropriate financial support" is vague. I looked into do an EMS fellowship, which as a Pediatric Critical Care trained physician was unusual. The majority of people completing that fellowship are out of adult EM and typically the funding is taken care of by hiring the fellow as an ED attending and then paying for the fellowship costs (and PGY-# salary) out of their revenue generation from the patients they see in 3-5 ED shifts/month. Perhaps that's more just a matter of internal accounting but it was a big enough deal that it scuttled my chances at pursuing the fellowship because the financing was too difficult to figure out for all the programs I talked to.

Third, I know people personally who have managed to secure additional research years in fellowship because their foreign government was willing to handle the money so the institution was able to create the spot without altering their finances. I think you'd be surprised at what some major academic medical centers in this country are willing to accept for $$$.

 

[hamstergang]

Absolutely no racism intended.

You said the names on that list were not 'normal.' Racism isn't the right term, but it's not far off.

This isn't about being politically correct for thr sake of it, it's about showing some minimal level of respect to people who happen to come from a culture different than your own.

 

[Mad Jack]

Late to the conversation but these caught my eye - There are institutions that could have more GME spots based on patient volumes but don't have the funding. Not sure if it is still the case, but the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences used to not independently fund GME positions - they made the decision that they would only have as many post training spots as CMS would fund, which I think is somewhere around 700, and not a single one more. That meant expanding any residency program was a zero-sum game with any department that wanted to add residents or a fellowship needed to take the spot from another specialty and justify why they deserved the spot. A few specialties like pediatrics could expand because resident funding was put up by the Children's Hospital. But the limitations were self imposed and there is a reasonable chance that programs there would have jumped at the opportunity to create a spot with external money.

Second, the language "appropriate financial support" is vague. I looked into do an EMS fellowship, which as a Pediatric Critical Care trained physician was unusual. The majority of people completing that fellowship are out of adult EM and typically the funding is taken care of by hiring the fellow as an ED attending and then paying for the fellowship costs (and PGY-# salary) out of their revenue generation from the patients they see in 3-5 ED shifts/month. Perhaps that's more just a matter of internal accounting but it was a big enough deal that it scuttled my chances at pursuing the fellowship because the financing was too difficult to figure out for all the programs I talked to.

Third, I know people personally who have managed to secure additional research years in fellowship because their foreign government was willing to handle the money so the institution was able to create the spot without altering their finances. I think you'd be surprised at what some major academic medical centers in this country are willing to accept for $$$.

The fellowship world is very different than the residency world. There is a lot more room for alternative funding, many programs aren't ACGME accredited, and research years have basically no ACGME guidelines, as additional research years are optional program supplements.

Another thing you are missing is that program funding is determined independently for each specialty- you are approved for, for instance, 18 IM spots, 5 surgery spots, and 8 FM spots, not 31 spots you can arbitrarily assign to whatever specialty you choose as an institution.

 

[Psai]

You said the names on that list were not 'normal.' Racism isn't the right term, but it's not far off.

This isn't about being politically correct for thr sake of it, it's about showing some minimal level of respect to people who happen to come from a culture different than your own.

What is wrong with all you people? I don't know what their cultures are and I really don't care enough to try to figure it out to disrespect them. The point was that the residency program is likely undesirable. Looking at names is a quick and dirty way to help determine whether US MDs avoid a program, used as an indirect estimate of quality. I'm from an immigrant family. Many of my friends are immigrants. Are any of you? Let's stop playing this silly game, thanks.

 

[Raryn]

The fellowship world is very different than the residency world. There is a lot more room for alternative funding, many programs aren't ACGME accredited, and research years have basically no ACGME guidelines, as additional research years are optional program supplements.

Another thing you are missing is that program funding is determined independently for each specialty- you are approved for, for instance, 18 IM spots, 5 surgery spots, and 8 FM spots, not 31 spots you can arbitrarily assign to whatever specialty you choose as an institution.

Program accreditation is independent, funding isn't.

That is, the # of spots funded by CMS was capped in 1997 on a per-institution level. That institution can move the funds around between program to program no problem. CMS puts no quotas on how much of the money goes to any given field.

Completely separately, ACGME accredits the programs individually. The IM RRC approves 18 spots, the surgery RRC 5, whatever. Those are maximums. The program can go up to that maximum if they have the money for it, or have any reasonable number of residents/fellows below that maximum. So if your cardiology fellowship is approved by the ACGME for 9 spots (3/year) but the institution gives only enough money for 6, they only fill 6. If the division then gets a research grant or decides to fund the extra spot/year out of clinical revenue, they can bring it up to 9.

Many programs may have the patient volume to train more people and are approved for such from the ACGME, but don't actually put people in those spots because of a lack of money. This isn't super uncommon. Last I talked with my PD, my fellowship could practically double in size and still stay within our ACGME quota, but we don't because we'd have no way to pay those fellows.

 

[hamstergang]

What is wrong with all you people? I don't know what their cultures are and I really don't care enough to try to figure it out to disrespect them. The point was that the residency program is likely undesirable.

Your point has nothing to do with our complaints. You said their names were not normal -- that's disrespectful even if you didn't put effort into making that evaluation.

 

[Psai]

Your point has nothing to do with our complaints. You said their names were not normal -- that's disrespectful even if you didn't put effort into making that evaluation.

People were whining about it even before I said normal. Most people in America are named Michael or Sally. Get over it.

 

[mpdoc2]

People were whining about it even before I said normal. Most people in America are named Michael or Sally. Get over it.

Get out of your hicktown and realize that we're not in the 1950s.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/14/mohammed-retakes-top-spot-in-english-baby-names/

 

[Law2Doc]

So the ACGME believes there is a shortage, the AAMC believes there is a shortage but only you don't believe it?

AGAIN, the AAMC has publically stated (in 2005, Google it) that US grads should fill ALL US healthcare needs -- they ONLY want more spots AFTER we drive everyone else out of the system by increasing US med school enrollment, some years from now. They are not your allies in this. They view you as not part of their solution to any shortage. So it's bizarre you keep harking back to them as part of your argument. Anyway (for the third time) if increasing residency slots or self funding is your only path to a spot, I'd say time to focus on a plan B. Everything else you are saying here is redundant/futile and a colossal waste of your time.

 

[Raryn]

People were whining about it even before I said normal. Most people in America are named Michael or Sally. Get over it.

Approximately one quarter of the US population is a first (born outside the US) or second (child of someone born outside the US) generation immigrant, myself included. Out of that quarter, the population skews disproportionately young, in particular the 2nd generation immigrants. If I had to guess, probably 30-35% of the 22-30 year olds in this country are 1st-2nd generation immigrants. Most of them come from places where Michael and Sally are not particularly common names.

In addition, for a wide variety of reasons (including parental demographics, cultural emphasis, whatever), I'd go further to estimate that that 30-35% is disproportionally represented amongst medical school applicants/matriculants. That's more of a stretch based on anecdotal experience and one could argue that it isn't the case for all schools (especially public/state schools in areas where there aren't that many immigrants), but even if you were to lowball it at 30% of graduating US medical students are 1st/2nd generation, that means just by random chance there could be a number of residency programs filled with nothing but US graduates all named things like Ahmed, Sanjay, and Yelena.

Basically, names tell you nothing about the resident other than perceived ethnicity. You could have a residency that is mostly South Asian where it is extremely competitive and all the students went to top 10 US schools... or you could have a residency that is mostly South Asian where everyone is an IMG from India/Pakistan. You could have a residency that is entirely Caucasian where all of them went to Carib schools, or you could have one where they all went to whatever elite institutions you can think of.

By stating that ethnic name must equal crappy program, that's ignorance. Or racism. Take your pick.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I think its time for this thread to be closed.