Selling Leave

Started by Clap MD
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Clap MD

Clap MD

Surgery Resident
Verified Member
Air Force
Physician
7+ Year Member
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Alright, I wanted to run this by the more experienced members here to see if there is something I’m missing, because this seems like an obvious choice—and I’ve learned to be skeptical of those...

Current plan: start terminal leave at the end of May, and start residency July 1. Sell excess leave.

I always hear that selling back leave is not the smart thing to do because you only get your base pay (vs the pay+allowances that you get if you use it as terminal leave). But in my case (and probably applies to most of us), it’s not like I can take more terminal leave and make money somewhere else for the additional month that I’m waiting for residency to start. In that case, sure, it would make sense. But as it is I’d essentially be giving up $6771 in leave—$184.26 daily base pay x 49 x 0.75 (it’s taxed at 25%)— to take a longer vacation between AF and residency.

This job isn’t so bad that I can’t work a few more days to pocket that kind of money.

Is there something I’m missing here? Does anyone here have experience doing this?
 
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narcusprince said:
Selling leave is a joke as an attending when you can make 1500-2000 a day.
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Absolutely, and I wish I was in that kind of position. Then terminal leave to start an attending job would be a no-brainer.

Perrotfish said:
Honestly I think it's a non issue anyway. They get to decide how much terminal leave you can take, and I don't know of anyone who got authorized more than a month's worth.
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True.
 
Figured out why no one does this...

I was looking at my ADSO completion date as my set DOS, but there is nothing saying it must be so. I can just push the DOS out by the additional time and be on terminal leave--netting about 5k more than if I sold it back, and still have my final out when I need it to be in June.
 
Clap MD said:
Figured out why no one does this...

I was looking at my ADSO completion date as my set DOS, but there is nothing saying it must be so. I can just push the DOS out by the additional time and be on terminal leave--netting about 5k more than if I sold it back, and still have my final out when I need it to be in June.
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1). Because they can revoke your terminal leave and force you to actually work until your DOS, even if you have a handshake agreement that says otherwise.

2). Because terminal leave usually ends with a 3-5 day checkout. Not a big deal if you are on vacation/job hunting but a huge deal if you need to interrupt your first week of residency to go back to your old command and sign forms

Residency doesn't have a lot of give and it's a huge red flag if you wither show up late or need emergency time off right away. Don't risk a massive f--k up for a few thousand dollars.
 
#1 does worry me, but everyone I've talked to that started terminal and went off to their airline jobs never got called back. I understand that's only their experience and anything can happen. Being owned by the line and somewhat sheltered from the MDG makes me less worried about it.

Re: #2, Guidance I got from the local MPF was that once I did my final-out prior to starting terminal leave, that was my last interaction with the base. Maybe this is a difference in branches? If that was bad info, I'll be RTB for at least a day during my first month of residency anyway as my ADSO isn't up until 13 July.

Your final point is well taken.
 
Clap MD said:
#1 does worry me, but everyone I've talked to that started terminal and went off to their airline jobs never got called back. I understand that's only their experience and anything can happen. Being owned by the line and somewhat sheltered from the MDG makes me less worried about it.

Re: #2, Guidance I got from the local MPF was that once I did my final-out prior to starting terminal leave, that was my last interaction with the base. Maybe this is a difference in branches? If that was bad info, I'll be RTB for at least a day during my first month of residency anyway as my ADSO isn't up until 13 July.

Your final point is well taken.
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BTW if I was going off to a job I would absolutely risk extending my DOS. One of our.docs at my command is getting out and doing exactly that. Just not for residency.
 
Just don't pick up your phone once on terminal leave and they can't mess with you. They're not going to send someone to come collect you.
 
sonofva said:
Just don't pick up your phone once on terminal leave and they can't mess with you. They're not going to send someone to come collect you.
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The medical director when I was a resident told me that he had moved twice in the IRR and never notified anyone. He said the same about not answering the phone. Your post just made me think of a funny image of the repo man showing up and taking your car, with you in it!
 
I know someone in the army whom signed a dd214 left the army started a civilian surgery residency. The bean counters found she had more obligation pulled her back for 1 more year..... Talk about burned.
 
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SeminoleFan3 said:
Did this come as a surprise to her? Seems like someone should know exactly how much time they have left.
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ADSO calculations can be complicated, and the only universal truth is that if at any time an error is discovered, the servicemember will either serve the time or (very rarely) give money back.

You mix a couple different types of obligations (HPSP, HSCP, USUHS, FAP, academy, ROTC, whatever, inservice vs outservice residency, inservice vs outservice fellowship), sprinkle in things like the FTOS fellowship MSP loophole or early MSP contracts, partial GMO payback with "greater of" obligation remaining post-residency ... it's a maze.

It's important to remember that ADSOs are determined by statute and policies set forth by NAVADMINs / big Navy, not letters composed by E5s in the personnel office, signed in good faith, and shuffled around in a blue folder to get "forwarded recommending approval" by O6s in the command suite. We call them "contracts" but they're not.
 
There was a GI at Lejeune who had everyone (SL, PERS, himself) convinced that he'd done 20. He was prior, had reserve time and broken service. Right before he was supposed to retire, he was found to be short a year. His relief had orders canceled and it caused a cascade of billeting changes. Interesting times. A year later it lead to a different guy getting forced to Lejeune and 3 years after that, the chief at Bethesda was forced to go right after picking up O6.
 
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Thanks everyone for chiming in. FWIW my ADSC calculations are pretty simple, just HPSP and the current ASP. Not sure if other branches have this feature, but on one of our MPF websites you can find your ADSC broken down into the reason (PCS, ASP, HPSP etc...) and the date each expires. Helpful for planning.
 
pgg said:
ADSO calculations can be complicated, and the only universal truth is that if at any time an error is discovered, the servicemember will either serve the time or (very rarely) give money back.

You mix a couple different types of obligations (HPSP, HSCP, USUHS, FAP, academy, ROTC, whatever, inservice vs outservice residency, inservice vs outservice fellowship), sprinkle in things like the FTOS fellowship MSP loophole or early MSP contracts, partial GMO payback with "greater of" obligation remaining post-residency ... it's a maze.

It's important to remember that ADSOs are determined by statute and policies set forth by NAVADMINs / big Navy, not letters composed by E5s in the personnel office, signed in good faith, and shuffled around in a blue folder to get "forwarded recommending approval" by O6s in the command suite. We call them "contracts" but they're not.
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Ok. I was thinking HPSP with no complicating factors.
 
pgg said:
ADSO calculations can be complicated, and the only universal truth is that if at any time an error is discovered, the servicemember will either serve the time or (very rarely) give money back.

You mix a couple different types of obligations (HPSP, HSCP, USUHS, FAP, academy, ROTC, whatever, inservice vs outservice residency, inservice vs outservice fellowship), sprinkle in things like the FTOS fellowship MSP loophole or early MSP contracts, partial GMO payback with "greater of" obligation remaining post-residency ... it's a maze.

It's important to remember that ADSOs are determined by statute and policies set forth by NAVADMINs / big Navy, not letters composed by E5s in the personnel office, signed in good faith, and shuffled around in a blue folder to get "forwarded recommending approval" by O6s in the command suite. We call them "contracts" but they're not.
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But who finds the errors? And what if my error finder makes an error, who can I appeal to? Who can you get a definite answer from?

This is my greatest fear: finding out I shat in the wrong toilet, or something, and now I owe 3 more years. It's not like I haven't seen it. My Intern year's Ortho rotation involved me watching an embittered Captain scream obscenities at the hospital CO (then an admiral) because the military was insisting he owed two more years despite (he said) having no evidence that he agreed to any obligation.
 
:shrug:

A friend of mine was notified of his extended / actual ADSO when he dropped his retirement papers and some person checked the math and saw he still owed a couple years. They were correct: given the medical pays he received, on the schedule he received them, he owed more time. The memos he signed to get them didn't supercede or replace the NAVADMIN and implementation guidance; they were just wrong. After lawyers and a Congressman got involved he was allowed to repay some bonus money and retire on time. That's probably the best possible outcome one can expect.

There's just no getting around the fact that we serve at the pleasure of the President and it's over when the service says it's over. I think everyone acts in good faith. The confusion is another consequence of the way management of the Medical Corps is done using policies, terms, forms, priorities, and rules appropriate for the line. We are an afterthought to the system.

You need only look at your fitness reports, which include a N/A section on tactical performance, or your LES, where medical pays show up as "save pay" or other incomprehensible nonsense.

The answer is to stay in contact with the higher powers (not the E5 in your local admin office) and get explicit confirmation of your ADSO every so often. Certainly prior to and after any multiyear pay commitments. On the Navy side, I've always found the special pay people at BUMED to be responsive. Caveat emptor.
 
narcusprince said:
I know someone in the army whom signed a dd214 left the army started a civilian surgery residency. The bean counters found she had more obligation pulled her back for 1 more year..... Talk about burned.
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This story is going to give someone a nightmare. Guaranteed.
 
Perrotfish said:
But who finds the errors? And what if my error finder makes an error, who can I appeal to? Who can you get a definite answer from?

This is my greatest fear: finding out I shat in the wrong toilet, or something, and now I owe 3 more years. It's not like I haven't seen it. My Intern year's Ortho rotation involved me watching an embittered Captain scream obscenities at the hospital CO (then an admiral) because the military was insisting he owed two more years despite (he said) having no evidence that he agreed to any obligation.
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what. a. nightmare.

j4pac said:
This story is going to give someone a nightmare. Guaranteed.
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yup.
 
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