Separate exam

[Shino’s Beetles]

Just a thought but do you guys believe podiatry schools having their own admissions exam (instead of the MCAT) would be beneficial overall. The reason I say this is because I feel it would remove the bottom of the barrel scores by having our own competitive exam even if it’s not as difficult as the MCAT (think PCAT, DAT, GRE and OAT). If scores can’t be translated across different exams it creates it own niche and it removes the ‘this is a back up’ mentality. Just rambling ideas but I wanted to know others thoughts.

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[heybrother]

The schools were free to not admit those bottom of the barrel applicants. They just wouldn't have stayed in business if they did. Having podiatry students take the MCAT is just a form of marketing - in the majority of instances its not about achievement or excellence. Students who wanted to be MD/DO are taking a test and ultimately discovering they aren't going to be a doctor - then an email is showing up saying "your dreams can still come true!" You can create another test, but the schools will still accept -any- score when it comes time to pay rent and you'll actually be clouding the path to a field that is already desperately short on applicants - now the student has set time/money aside for and sign up for another test. The test will have to be created and validated, but so few people will take it that it will have to be expensive (like podiatry boards are) because there will be fewer people kicking in money to pay for it.

7-8 years ago I wondered why the schools didn't just set a minimum bar at 24-25 - tell people, "you're in ... once you get our minimum score". It wouldn't have worked. I was, and you potentially are, deluding yourself into imagining this is something that it isn't. This is a very flawed process and profession. It ultimately can be very satisfying, but it has an inordinate amount of stupid hoops to jump through.

 

[FutureDPM123]

I feel this would shrink the applicant pool even further. At least with the MCAT requirement, more people are qualified. And most of the research shows MCAT/GPA positively correlates with success on medical school board exams.

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

No way this would ever happen or even help. As we moving closer and closer to having to take the USMLE, MCAT is here to stay for sure.

 

[heybrother]

We've been "moving closer" to taking the USMLE for years. There was a rumor back when I was applying (so... 8+ years ago) that the California schools might have selectively taken the USMLE and done poorly (the results were not released). One of my class president/representative type people said the podiatry powers that be had bought an old version of the USMLE to try and explore it as possibility. It isn't going to happen. My podiatry class consistently scored below our DO counterparts who sat in the same classroom. Word on the street is the quality of applicant has decreased since then. Our APMLE boards are pitiful / 1st order questions and yet the pass rate is often absurdly low at several of the schools. Most podiatry students would not be able to pass the USMLE - their test is an order of magnitude more difficult. Do not be fooled by the MD forum posters here discussing their 90th percentile scores. For every 90th percentile person there is a 10th percentile. Passing the USMLE would not achieve parity - as I indicated above - MD/DO use these tests as tools for demonstrating achievement and excellence - not as a simple pass fail like podiatry. Orthopedic applicants crush these exams to prove they are competitive. The orthopedists who point out we don't take the USMLE would just as gladly point out their applicants score 50 points higher on average than our applicants if it ever came to it. Ultimately a pass on the USMLE isn't going to resolve questionable training or our absurdly low ABFAS pass rates.

 

[AttackNME]

It's idealistic to think every working man or woman is doing what they do because that's what they've always wanted to do all their life. There are few professions that draw mainstream attention, where little kids grow up wanting to be a ________. Podiatry, for many, is not one of them (yes there are people who grew up wanting to do this but not many), but it is a profession that a lot of people will learn to love and appreciate.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Do you see Podiatry ever simplifying the process of becoming a practicing pod? Like cutting the amount of boards one needs or only having 1 etc?

The schools were free to not admit those bottom of the barrel applicants. They just wouldn't have stayed in business if they did. Having podiatry students take the MCAT is just a form of marketing - in the majority of instances its not about achievement or excellence. Students who wanted to be MD/DO are taking a test and ultimately discovering they aren't going to be a doctor - then an email is showing up saying "your dreams can still come true!" You can create another test, but the schools will still accept -any- score when it comes time to pay rent and you'll actually be clouding the path to a field that is already desperately short on applicants - now the student has set time/money aside for and sign up for another test. The test will have to be created and validated, but so few people will take it that it will have to be expensive (like podiatry boards are) because there will be fewer people kicking in money to pay for it.

7-8 years ago I wondered why the schools didn't just set a minimum bar at 24-25 - tell people, "you're in ... once you get our minimum score". It wouldn't have worked. I was, and you potentially are, deluding yourself into imagining this is something that it isn't. This is a very flawed process and profession. It ultimately can be very satisfying, but it has an inordinate amount of stupid hoops to jump through.

 

[Jacquejam1234]

Do you see Podiatry ever simplifying the process of becoming a practicing pod? Like cutting the amount of boards one needs or only having 1 etc?

I have always wondered. Are you a pre pod or a podiatry student??

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

We've been "moving closer" to taking the USMLE for years. There was a rumor back when I was applying (so... 8+ years ago) that the California schools might have selectively taken the USMLE and done poorly (the results were not released). One of my class president/representative type people said the podiatry powers that be had bought an old version of the USMLE to try and explore it as possibility. It isn't going to happen. My podiatry class consistently scored below our DO counterparts who sat in the same classroom. Word on the street is the quality of applicant has decreased since then. Our APMLE boards are pitiful / 1st order questions and yet the pass rate is often absurdly low at several of the schools. Most podiatry students would not be able to pass the USMLE - their test is an order of magnitude more difficult. Do not be fooled by the MD forum posters here discussing their 90th percentile scores. For every 90th percentile person there is a 10th percentile. Passing the USMLE would not achieve parity - as I indicated above - MD/DO use these tests as tools for demonstrating achievement and excellence - not as a simple pass fail like podiatry. Orthopedic applicants crush these exams to prove they are competitive. The orthopedists who point out we don't take the USMLE would just as gladly point out their applicants score 50 points higher on average than our applicants if it ever came to it. Ultimately a pass on the USMLE isn't going to resolve questionable training or our absurdly low ABFAS pass rates.

Seems like apma is really pushing for it at the last national passing some kinda resolution and even the apmsa signed on. Idk if this is true but based from the md/do forums there may be moves to make the USMLE pass/fail. (But I have zero knowledge if thats true or just sdn chatter)That could be a game changer. Next 5 years could be interesting in the world of medical education.

May not change their opinions of pods being good surgeons. But could certainly hurt their 'non-physician" argument.

 

[DannyPhantom113]

Honestly, I think that theres the school of thought that "if you give a student a requirement they'll rise to the occasion" like, idk too much into the California school taking the boards, but if they went in knowing it wasnt going to affect their residency that would affect the way they studied and prepared and took the test. But an arguement can be made if an incoming first year is told upfront their placement depends on a score on the USMLE and not the APMLE, it would cause the student to study differently.

As for the entry exam, it should stay MCAT. Theres about 50 thousand students that apply to medical school, only 40% of which making it. Instead of telling the other 60% to take a new test marketing just has to increase to them

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

Honestly, I think that theres the school of thought that "if you give a student a requirement they'll rise to the occasion" like, idk too much into the California school taking the boards, but if they went in knowing it wasnt going to affect their residency that would affect the way they studied and prepared and took the test. But an arguement can be made if an incoming first year is told upfront their placement depends on a score on the USMLE and not the APMLE, it would cause the student to study differently.

As for the entry exam, it should stay MCAT. Theres about 50 thousand students that apply to medical school, only 40% of which making it. Instead of telling the other 60% to take a new test marketing just has to increase to them

Agreed if I knew i just spent two years of tuition down the drain and the rest of my career depended on that exam. Give me a month or 2 to study and I might not score ortho levels. But I'd damn sure score community family medicine level at least. And thats enough to be a #realdoctor. After surviving didactics I think most pod students have figured out how to study. An important skill they may not have had in undergrad that landed them in pod school in the first place.

 

[AttackNME]

It might be interesting to see if comparing how podiatry students do on the USMLE helps distinguish themselves from other applicants for residencies, much like gpa and passing boards would serve but honestly, I think the only thing good to come out of requiring podiatry students to take the USMLE is so that they can complain about the same stupid test with their allopathic colleagues.

 

[de Ribas]

Agreed if I knew i just spent two years of tuition down the drain and the rest of my career depended on that exam. Give me a month or 2 to study and I might not score ortho levels. But I'd damn sure score community family medicine level at least. And thats enough to be a #realdoctor. After surviving didactics I think most pod students have figured out how to study. An important skill they may not have had in undergrad that landed them in pod school in the first place.

Exactly, plus what I hear is that current best way of getting prepared for USMLE is not MD school curriculum but B&B, Zanki decks and other resources available to everyone. If DPMs would be required to take USMLE, they would hit these same resources and do well enough on it. With P/F system at MD and some DO schools they can care less about GPA and grades and hit Zanki and B&B starting first month and focus on USMLE only. That's what some of DOs do at my school that I know.

 

[deleted480308]

With as much as pods try to identify with md/do I cannot imagine them giving up the mcat

 

[DannyPhantom113]

The other thing to look at is why? Who would a new test benefit? We would still need Chem, Bio, Orgo, English etc as pre-reqs (like MD/DOs) and our curriculum would remain similar to them as well (Biochem/Physiology, Anatomy etc). Theres honestly no real need for a new entry exam

 

[Osminog]

The other thing to look at is why? Who would a new test benefit? We would still need Chem, Bio, Orgo, English etc as pre-reqs (like MD/DOs) and our curriculum would remain similar to them as well (Biochem/Physiology, Anatomy etc). Theres honestly no real need for a new entry exam

Because it'd maybe help remove the stereotype of the person who goes to podiatry school just because he took the MCAT and got a horrendously low score. A lot of podiatry matriculants have 20th-30th percentile MCAT scores; they're being compared with all of the DO/MD applicants taking the MCAT, and their poor performance makes them looks bad. On a podiatry-specific entrance exam (taken only by people applying to podiatry school), perhaps these same matriculants would have 80th or 90th percentile scores. Their test performance would no longer be directly compared with the performance of people applying to osteopathic or allopathic programs, and this would perhaps give a new sense of legitimacy and independence to the field of podiatry.

 

[Shino’s Beetles]

The other thing to look at is why? Who would a new test benefit? We would still need Chem, Bio, Orgo, English etc as pre-reqs (like MD/DOs) and our curriculum would remain similar to them as well (Biochem/Physiology, Anatomy etc). Theres honestly no real need for a new entry exam

If I’m not mistaken those pre-reqs are similar to those needed in other biological science disciplines and professional schools. To Osminog’s point this is exactly why I made the thread. Everyone seems to feel the direction should be more towards allopathic standards in both entrance exams and boards. That may or may not be the best direction. As it pertains to a sizable applicant pool, it would probably be best to first introduce a Podiatric specific exam in conjunction to the MCAT then remove the MCAT as an acceptable entrance requirement. I guess it depends if the field is looking towards being another allopathic like discipline or its own independent (yet standardized) field. Also if DPMs we’re taking the USMLE wouldn’t that make more of an unnecessary comparison to MD/DO?

 

[DannyPhantom113]

Because it'd maybe help remove the stereotype of the person who goes to podiatry school just because he took the MCAT and got a horrendously low score. A lot of podiatry matriculants have 20th-30th percentile MCAT scores; they're being compared with all of the DO/MD applicants taking the MCAT, and their poor performance makes them looks bad. On a podiatry-specific entrance exam (taken only by people applying to podiatry school), perhaps these same matriculants would have 80th or 90th percentile scores. Their test performance would no longer be directly compared with the performance of people applying to osteopathic or allopathic programs, and this would perhaps give a new sense of legitimacy and independence to the field of podiatry.

But my point is that the comment would still be the same. So what is this exam going to do, ask "easier" questions from Biology, Psychology, Biochem, Orgo, Chem etc? Or is it going to omit certain subjects, which would still pretty much be needed for that knowledge in podiatry school? Theres just too many questions I think in there to justify helping students "feel better about their score". Plus, theres never a guarantee that even if this exam exists then the scores for incoming students would be higher, a new baseline would need to be created. And, just on a personal note, it would cost more money to take in addition to the MCAT if Pod isnt your first choice

 

[DannyPhantom113]

But my point is that the comment would still be the same. So what is this exam going to do, ask "easier" questions from Biology, Psychology, Biochem, Orgo, Chem etc? Or is it going to omit certain subjects, which would still pretty much be needed for that knowledge in podiatry school? Theres just too many questions I think in there to justify helping students "feel better about their score". Plus, theres never a guarantee that even if this exam exists then the scores for incoming students would be higher, a new baseline would need to be created. And, just on a personal note, it would cost more money to take in addition to the MCAT if Pod isnt your first choice

Content*

 

[Weirdy]

Taking away the MCAT does nothing to help the field grow.

If anything, taking away the MCAT further de-legitimizes the field as a whole.

It's bad enough we have low stat applicants applying simply for the sake of "surgery" without accepting both the pros and cons of the field.

It looks even worse when people realize we don't even take the MCAT and yet are trained to take a blade to a patient.

Even if stats are low currently, taking away a bar that is already set high only takes us several steps back in terms of having other professions take us seriously. Everyone knows what the MCAT is. If you replace this with another hocus pocus exam drummed up by the powers that be, do you really think they'd take us seriously at all? The notion itself is ridiculous.

Having to take the MCAT to get into DPM programs already filters out applicants who are unwilling to go through the work to get there.

 

[Weirdy]

Because it'd maybe help remove the stereotype of the person who goes to podiatry school just because he took the MCAT and got a horrendously low score. A lot of podiatry matriculants have 20th-30th percentile MCAT scores; they're being compared with all of the DO/MD applicants taking the MCAT, and their poor performance makes them looks bad. On a podiatry-specific entrance exam (taken only by people applying to podiatry school), perhaps these same matriculants would have 80th or 90th percentile scores. Their test performance would no longer be directly compared with the performance of people applying to osteopathic or allopathic programs, and this would perhaps give a new sense of legitimacy and independence to the field of podiatry.

Lowering the bar with another exam would not prevent this from happening.

It would only increase the chance that someone lazy who is unwilling to study for a hard exam like the MCAT would jump ship to this profession if it has an easier exam to surpass with guaranteed surgical training and medical school level curriculum.

I know you are still a pre-med just about to start medical school, but we have standards to uphold to prevent ******* kids from hurting patients and dragging our profession further into the mud. You would do the same for your profession would you not?

MD/DO schools have the MCAT for a reason: it is to set the bar for a minimum competancy. Even if DPM scores are lower overall, why should we continue to lower the standards? Having someone take the MCAT and do worse than an MD/DO prospect, is better than giving them a participation trophy through a completely different exam that has no pedigree. Some improvement is better than stepping backwards.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

MCAT is here to stay..good or bad..its a filtering system that does work.

Application pool past 2-3 years have been better imo..of course not where we want them but we do occasionally see plp applying to pod schools with 505+ MCAT...so its going but will get better. As far the USMLE step 1 goes, only time will tell but if we are given the courses that are tested on step 1 not taught in pod schools like ob/gyn and a bit more on psy stuff..with study break and qbank..its def possible to do well. But again, time will tell.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Pod schools in the past have taken the DAT and I believe to GRE. I think it’s a good thing for the MCAT to stay, as many have said, it filters out the people who were not passionate about medicine. Most people who take the MCAT go into it with the intention of MD school, and failing that, DO school. Even if Pod schools take horrendously low MCAT scores, the person who apply a with that low of an MCAT score is still passionate at some level for medicine, otherwise they would do something else.

I personally view Podiatry school as a last chance at becoming a doctor for about 80% of the premeds. The other 20% had stats for DO, but wanted the surgery.

I 100% think a premed should do DPM over Caribbean medical school. While there are people who don’t think DPMs are doctors, in a clinical sense, it’s the closest thing to an MD/DO.

It’s weird too, most of the people that bash Podiatry are DOs who don’t understand the training, DOs being a group of doctors that have historically been misunderstood in the medical community. Ironic.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I just don’t understand why Pod schools take such low MCAT scores. There has to be a floor somewhere, but there are accepted students who have gotten 484s with acceptances and scholarships. For the opportunity to be a doctor. And yet you have people sending themselves to the Caribbean with a 50% chance of actually making it.

 

[NTT123]

DPM schools also have high performing students who have high MCAT/GPA, but the majority high performing students are either not interested in Podiatric Medicine or do not know about this career pathway.

When you compare MCAT and GPA between MD/DO/DPM, you will have to consider the overall pool and matriculation size. DPM pool size is very small compare to MD or DO.

MD/ DO sizes are large enough to hide the “ lesser stellar apples” in their matriculation data. However, it doesn’t mean those lower stats DO/MD students will not be successful doctors or are any less of a doctor compared to higher stats students. The same applies for DPM students.

2017-2018 MD schools have 51,680 applicants pool.

2017-2018 DO schools have 20,836 applicants pool.

2017-2018 DPM schools have 844 applicants pool.

The DPM pool size is not even 1% compare to MD (844/51680= 0.016%). In 2017-2018, MD Schools have 50,836 more students they can choose from than DPM schools. DO schools have 19,992 more applicants they can choose from compared to DPM schools.

Using MCAT as a comparison.

MD school from 2017-2019, matriculated 41,174 students into their schools.
- MCAT below 501: 3390 students
- MCAT below 497: 1053 students. It means there are roughly 500 matriculated MD students each year that have MCATs similar to DPM students, yet the DPM pool is less than 1% compare to MD. Avg DPM matriculated size is around 5-600 students.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf

DO school from 2017-2018, matriculated 7,191 students into their schools.

- MCAT below 500: 1892 (35.8% in new MCAT scale)
- MCAT below 24(old MCAT): 1169 (39.1% in old MCAT scale)
- Mean matriculated MCAT: 503, SD 5.35. Bottom 25% has MCAT less than 497.64
- Mean matriculated old MCAT 25.62, SD: 4.38. Bottom 25% has MCAT less than 21.24.( 493-494)
- Old MCAT 21.24 estimated = new MCAT 493-494.

- Therefore, roughly 25% of DO students had MCATs similar to the avg DPM student. It means every 1 in 4 DO students have similar MCATs to a DPM student, yet DO schools have nearly 20,000 more applicants to choose from compare to DPM.

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=4f072597_8

(Table 6)

DPM school from 2017-2018, they matriculated 600 students into their schools.
- Mean matriculated MCAT= 494

https://www.aacpm.org/wp-content/uploads/Matriculant-MCAT-Average-2015-2018.pdf

So when a few unprofessional MD/DO students (which mostly are great student doctors) or pre-meds come to this forum mocking low MCATs ( especially in the other thread that got locked), just remember ~500 MD students each year and 1 in 4 DO students scored the same MCAT as DPM students.

Typically, those students are obsessed with making others feel inferior because they are insecure of themselves.

On the other hand, DPM students don’t need to short sell ourselves. Work hard, study hard, and be the best doctor you can be. Podiatric Medicine plays a crucial role in healthcare.

And yes, DPM schools will continue use the MCAT. Certain DPM school have already matriculated mean MCATs over 500. It will be the norm for all DPM matriculants in the future.

 

[Shino’s Beetles]

DPM schools also have high performing students who have high MCAT/GPA, but the majority high performing students are either not interested in Podiatric Medicine or do not know about this career pathway.

When you compare MCAT and GPA between MD/DO/DPM, you will have to consider the overall pool and matriculation size. DPM pool size is very small compare to MD or DO.

MD/ DO sizes are large enough to hide the “ lesser stellar apples” in their matriculation data. However, it doesn’t mean those lower stat DO/MD students will not be successful doctors or are any less of a doctor compared to higher status students. The same applies for DPM students.

2017-2018 MD schools have 51,680 applicants pool.

2017-2018 DO schools have 20,836 applicants pool.

2017-2018 DPM schools have 844 applicants pool.

The DPM pool size is not even 1% compare to MD (844/51680= 0.016%). In 2017-2018, MD Schools have 50,836 more students they can choose from than DPM schools. DO schools have 19,992 more applicants they can choose from compared to DPM schools.

Using MCAT as a comparison.

MD school from 2017-2019, matriculated 41,174 students into their schools.
- MCAT below 501: 3390 students
- MCAT below 497: 1053 students. It means there are roughly 500 matriculated MD students each year that have MCATs similar to DPM students, yet the DPM pool is less than 1% compare to MD. Avg DPM matriculated size is around 5-600 students.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf

DO school from 2017-2018, matriculated 7,191 students into their schools.

- MCAT below 500: 1892 (35.8% in new MCAT scale)
- MCAT below 24(old MCAT): 1169 (39.1% in old MCAT scale)
- Mean matriculated MCAT: 503, SD 5.35. Bottom 25% has MCAT less than 497.64
- Mean matriculated old MCAT 25.62, SD: 4.38. Bottom 25% has MCAT less than 21.24.( 493-494)
- Old MCAT 21.24 estimated = new MCAT 493-494.

- Therefore, roughly 25% of DO students had MCATs similar to the avg DPM student. It means every 1 in 4 DO students have similar MCATs to a DPM student, yet DO schools have nearly 20,000 more applicants to choose from compare d to DPM.

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=4f072597_8

(Table 6)

DPM school from 2017-2018, they matriculated 600 students into their schools.
- Mean matriculated MCAT= 494

https://www.aacpm.org/wp-content/uploads/Matriculant-MCAT-Average-2015-2018.pdf

So when a few unprofessional MD/DO students (which are mostly great student doctors) or pre-meds come to this forum mocking low MCATs ( especially in the other thread that got locked), just remember ~500 MD students each year and 1 in 4 DO students scored the same MCAT as DPM students.

Typically, those students are obsessed with making others feel inferior because they are insecure of themselves.

On the other hand, DPM students don’t need to short sell ourselves. Work hard, study hard, and be the best doctor you can be. Podiatric Medicine plays a crucial role in healthcare.

And yes, DPM schools will continue use the MCAT. Certain DPM school have already matriculated mean MCATs over 500. It will be the norm for all DPM matriculants in the future.

Thank you for this. This was definitely needed. Hopefully then there will be a trend upwards in scores.

https://www.aacpm.org/wp-content/uploads/Matriculant-MCAT-Average-2015-2018.pdf

If anyone knows where I can find trends of MCAT/GPA for pod schools before 2015 that would be great.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

DPM schools also have high performing students who have high MCAT/GPA, but the majority high performing students are either not interested in Podiatric Medicine or do not know about this career pathway.

When you compare MCAT and GPA between MD/DO/DPM, you will have to consider the overall pool and matriculation size. DPM pool size is very small compare to MD or DO.

MD/ DO sizes are large enough to hide the “ lesser stellar apples” in their matriculation data. However, it doesn’t mean those lower stat DO/MD students will not be successful doctors or are any less of a doctor compared to higher status students. The same applies for DPM students.

2017-2018 MD schools have 51,680 applicants pool.

2017-2018 DO schools have 20,836 applicants pool.

2017-2018 DPM schools have 844 applicants pool.

The DPM pool size is not even 1% compare to MD (844/51680= 0.016%). In 2017-2018, MD Schools have 50,836 more students they can choose from than DPM schools. DO schools have 19,992 more applicants they can choose from compared to DPM schools.

Using MCAT as a comparison.

MD school from 2017-2019, matriculated 41,174 students into their schools.
- MCAT below 501: 3390 students
- MCAT below 497: 1053 students. It means there are roughly 500 matriculated MD students each year that have MCATs similar to DPM students, yet the DPM pool is less than 1% compare to MD. Avg DPM matriculated size is around 5-600 students.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf

DO school from 2017-2018, matriculated 7,191 students into their schools.

- MCAT below 500: 1892 (35.8% in new MCAT scale)
- MCAT below 24(old MCAT): 1169 (39.1% in old MCAT scale)
- Mean matriculated MCAT: 503, SD 5.35. Bottom 25% has MCAT less than 497.64
- Mean matriculated old MCAT 25.62, SD: 4.38. Bottom 25% has MCAT less than 21.24.( 493-494)
- Old MCAT 21.24 estimated = new MCAT 493-494.

- Therefore, roughly 25% of DO students had MCATs similar to the avg DPM student. It means every 1 in 4 DO students have similar MCATs to a DPM student, yet DO schools have nearly 20,000 more applicants to choose from compare d to DPM.

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=4f072597_8

(Table 6)

DPM school from 2017-2018, they matriculated 600 students into their schools.
- Mean matriculated MCAT= 494

https://www.aacpm.org/wp-content/uploads/Matriculant-MCAT-Average-2015-2018.pdf

So when a few unprofessional MD/DO students (which are mostly great student doctors) or pre-meds come to this forum mocking low MCATs ( especially in the other thread that got locked), just remember ~500 MD students each year and 1 in 4 DO students scored the same MCAT as DPM students.

Typically, those students are obsessed with making others feel inferior because they are insecure of themselves.

On the other hand, DPM students don’t need to short sell ourselves. Work hard, study hard, and be the best doctor you can be. Podiatric Medicine plays a crucial role in healthcare.

And yes, DPM schools will continue use the MCAT. Certain DPM school have already matriculated mean MCATs over 500. It will be the norm for all DPM matriculants in the future.

Great post.

People tend to forget how small the DPM applicant pool is...either when applying to a program or those matching every year ( usually <600) compared to the md/do world.

 

[de Ribas]

DPM schools also have high performing students who have high MCAT/GPA, but the majority high performing students are either not interested in Podiatric Medicine or do not know about this career pathway.

When you compare MCAT and GPA between MD/DO/DPM, you will have to consider the overall pool and matriculation size. DPM pool size is very small compare to MD or DO.

MD/ DO sizes are large enough to hide the “ lesser stellar apples” in their matriculation data. However, it doesn’t mean those lower stat DO/MD students will not be successful doctors or are any less of a doctor compared to higher status students. The same applies for DPM students.

2017-2018 MD schools have 51,680 applicants pool.

2017-2018 DO schools have 20,836 applicants pool.

2017-2018 DPM schools have 844 applicants pool.

The DPM pool size is not even 1% compare to MD (844/51680= 0.016%). In 2017-2018, MD Schools have 50,836 more students they can choose from than DPM schools. DO schools have 19,992 more applicants they can choose from compared to DPM schools.

Using MCAT as a comparison.

MD school from 2017-2019, matriculated 41,174 students into their schools.
- MCAT below 501: 3390 students
- MCAT below 497: 1053 students. It means there are roughly 500 matriculated MD students each year that have MCATs similar to DPM students, yet the DPM pool is less than 1% compare to MD. Avg DPM matriculated size is around 5-600 students.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321508/data/factstablea23.pdf

DO school from 2017-2018, matriculated 7,191 students into their schools.

- MCAT below 500: 1892 (35.8% in new MCAT scale)
- MCAT below 24(old MCAT): 1169 (39.1% in old MCAT scale)
- Mean matriculated MCAT: 503, SD 5.35. Bottom 25% has MCAT less than 497.64
- Mean matriculated old MCAT 25.62, SD: 4.38. Bottom 25% has MCAT less than 21.24.( 493-494)
- Old MCAT 21.24 estimated = new MCAT 493-494.

- Therefore, roughly 25% of DO students had MCATs similar to the avg DPM student. It means every 1 in 4 DO students have similar MCATs to a DPM student, yet DO schools have nearly 20,000 more applicants to choose from compare d to DPM.

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...-profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=4f072597_8

(Table 6)

DPM school from 2017-2018, they matriculated 600 students into their schools.
- Mean matriculated MCAT= 494

https://www.aacpm.org/wp-content/uploads/Matriculant-MCAT-Average-2015-2018.pdf

So when a few unprofessional MD/DO students (which are mostly great student doctors) or pre-meds come to this forum mocking low MCATs ( especially in the other thread that got locked), just remember ~500 MD students each year and 1 in 4 DO students scored the same MCAT as DPM students.

Typically, those students are obsessed with making others feel inferior because they are insecure of themselves.

On the other hand, DPM students don’t need to short sell ourselves. Work hard, study hard, and be the best doctor you can be. Podiatric Medicine plays a crucial role in healthcare.

And yes, DPM schools will continue use the MCAT. Certain DPM school have already matriculated mean MCATs over 500. It will be the norm for all DPM matriculants in the future.

Great post. Thanks for doing all this work. I posted similar information about 1 year ago. You nailed it.

Isn't average MCAT score in the most recent Handbook for AZPOD is like 498 and 499 at Temple? If it is, I think it is very decent. It is slowly rising.

Let's not forget about thousands of MDs who either didnt take or had poor MCATs went to Carib and are practicing in US, and thousands of other FMGs who never seen MCAT at all.

 

[NTT123]

Great post. Thanks for doing all this work. I posted similar information about 1 year ago. You nailed it.

Isn't average MCAT score in the most recent Handbook for AZPOD is like 498 and 499 at Temple? If it is, I think it is very decent. It is slowly rising.

Let's not forget about thousands of MDs who either didnt take or had poor MCATs went to Carib and are practicing in US, and thousands of other FMGs who never seen MCAT at all.

2017: Azpod :498, CSPM: 499, Temple: 499.
2018: CSPM: 502, Western 498 (They are only schools published datas on their website. Waiting for new students information book for 2018 datas)

Yep there is about more than 1/4 of practicing physicians in the US are IMG. Those doctors usually have the stigma of low MCAT/GPA and some schools don't even require MCAT. But they work hard, now they are contributing to the society and providing patients care. This applies to DPM students as well.

"International medical graduates (IMGs) play a vital role in the US health care system. These graduates represent 26% of physicians in practice and 24% of residents in specialty programs."

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