Serious question: why do applicants go to the Caribbean over DO?

[ATPsynthase123]

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So I was perusing the SGU forum, and I am honestly surprised people apply to these places. Especially if they have even been on SDN, we trash Caribbean schools like they are they plague!

Like any bit of googling and you will discover the 50% match rate, the high rate of attrition, and the low student morale. Why do people not do this?

Do they desire the supposed "prestige" of an MD? Do they want to be a doctor so bad that they are willing to ignore blatant warnings? Are they just misinformed? Do they believe DOs are quacks?

Like the old pre-AMSA president at my university applied to 3 schools with a 3.4/26 our two state MD schools programs and SGU. Last I heard she was starting her second year at SGU. I honestly wonder if she even knew what a big mistake she made?

How can people who could possibly save your life be so ignorant? I honestly don't get it.


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[getfat]

While there is a large number of students like you mentioned, there is a significant portion that were forced to go Caribbean due to red flags on their application or constraints (financial, time, etc) that prevented retaking classes.

Personally, I can't knock these people either because if I don't have an acceptance by spring I could be applying to at least the top four as well .

 

[ATPsynthase123]

While there is a large number of students like you mentioned, there is a significant portion that were forced to go Caribbean due to red flags on their application or constraints (financial, time, etc) that prevented retaking classes.

Personally, I can't knock these people either because if I don't have an acceptance by spring I could be applying to at least the top four as well .

Financial? SGU has outrageous tuition doesn't it? Like more than DO school


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[radian313]

So I was perusing the SGU forum, and I am honestly surprised people apply to these places. Especially if they have even been on SDN, we trash Caribbean schools like they are they plague!

Like any bit of googling and you will discover the 50% match rate, the high rate of attrition, and the low student morale. Why do people not do this?

Do they desire the supposed "prestige" of an MD? Do they want to be a doctor so bad that they are willing to ignore blatant warnings? Are they just misinformed? Do they believe DOs are quacks?

Like the old pre-AMSA president at my university applied to 2 schools with a 3.4/26 our two state MD schools programs and SGU. Last I heard she was starting her second year at SGU. I honestly wonder if she even knew what a big mistake she made?

How can people who could possibly save your life be so ignorant? I honestly don't get it.


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I sincerely hope this isnt a troll post so I'll give you the benefit of doubt and give you a serious answer.

Lets be fair at one point many years ago, going to a school like SGU wasnt that bad a deal because the numbers made it out to be that way. The current status quo relies on that reputation of pumping out about 500 or doctors from a school like SGU. I think their starting class has close to a 1000 students. Lots of students simply dont make it through the 5 semesters on the island, they fail out, they get homesick etc. That said, why do they it? Word of mouth, reputation around certain geographic locations such as NY and NJ. Don't get me wrong, SGU and other comparable schools do produce good doctors/students who can make through. But thats WHO CAN make it through because it is very hard from what I here. Not saying schools in the USA have it any easier, its simple math. These for profit schools often bank on the principle that many students who are average or below average simply wount make it for XYZ reason and are the reason why they are still alive. What was once an OKAY proposition is now a dangerous outcome for many. Folks are simply misinformed to some degree and bank on the idea "I will work my butt off", yeh thats all great, but the environment is often not the best at times for this. So in short, misinformation, word of mouth, and yes the truth is, the people who do make it through, are doing alright.

 

[FCMike11]

A lot of people are impatient and the Caribbean schools have biannual admissions - you don't have to wait, at the very least, a year and timing isnt really important.

Also, can bypass a lot of the volunteering and other things to really polish up your app.

Just some things I've seen people say.

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[ATPsynthase123]

I sincerely hope this isnt a troll post so I'll give you the benefit of doubt and give you a serious answer.

Lets be fair at one point many years ago, going to a school like SGU wasnt that bad a deal because the numbers made it out to be that way. The current status quo relies on that reputation of pumping out about 500 or doctors from a school like SGU. I think their starting class has close to a 1000 students. Lots of students simply dont make it through the 5 semesters on the island, they fail out, they get homesick etc. That said, why do they it? Word of mouth, reputation around certain geographic locations such as NY and NJ. Don't get me wrong, SGU and other comparable schools do produce good doctors/students who can make through. But thats WHO CAN make it through because it is very hard from what I here. Not saying schools in the USA have it any easier, its simple math. These for profit schools often bank on the principle that many students who are average or below average simply wount make it for XYZ reason and are the reason why they are still alive. What was once an OKAY proposition is now a dangerous outcome for many. Folks are simply misinformed to some degree and bank on the idea "I will work my butt off", yeh thats all great, but the environment is often not the best at times for this. So in short, misinformation, word of mouth, and yes the truth is, the people who do make it through, are doing alright.

Thanks! And this isn't a troll response. If I wanted to troll I'd post it in the SGU forum lol. I'm honestly curious. Like as much as we post the stats about how terrible the schools are, you'd think awareness would be higher. I guess that willful ignorance is a prominent trait there.


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[lnguyen1412]

Many people choose SGU as their last resort anyway. However, I have come to know many doctor that SGU produced, and they are all great doctors.

Going to SGU maybe a good options ten years earlier, but it is certainly not a good option NOW. I don't think they neglect any warning they received, it's just they feel they absolutely have to become a doctor no matter what, even with the serious red-flag on their apps. That's their last resort.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Many people choose SGU as their last resort anyway. However, I have come to know many doctor that SGU produced, and they are all great doctors.

Going to SGU maybe a good options ten years earlier, but it is certainly not a good option NOW. I don't think they neglect any warning they received, it's just they feel they absolutely have to become a doctor no matter what, even with the serious red-flag on their apps. That's their last resort.

But I mean, it's literally a coin flip of whether you will ever become a doctor. That isn't good odds at all. You'd think that they would get a reality check before they applied to the Caribbean


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[lnguyen1412]

But I mean, it's literally a coin flip of whether you will ever become a doctor. That isn't good odds at all. You'd think that they would get a reality check before they applied to the Caribbean


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Some of them did not realize the odds though. Because the simple version of what they heard is: "If you try hard enough, you can become a doctor." Apparently, even if you tried hard enough, you might not become a doctor at all. Career choose its people, not people choose their career.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

But I mean, it's literally a coin flip of whether you will ever become a doctor. That isn't good odds at all. You'd think that they would get a reality check before they applied to the Caribbean


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I also think SDN represents a minority of med school applicants. As great a resource as it is, I'm willing to bet the vast majority of applicants to Caribbean schools have never heard of SDN.

 

[summergirl]

Oversea medical schools are a pretty big thing here in Canada. Mostly because it is next to impossible to get into MD here without an extremely high GPA (3.8+). We can apply to USMD but that's very difficult as well since we are internationals. As a group, Canadian students living in Canada don't really know much about DO schools, and many people don't really trust that they can easily be successfully matched as a DO graduate. It's really not our fault, I mean you'd be wary too if you only read about a particular degree online that requires hundreds of thousands of dollars and doesn't really exist in your country. So if you live in Canada and wish to go to medical school, but can't get into North American MD schools due to your GPA (which can be impossible to fix depending on your situation), then it is very likely that you will pick oversea schools over DO because at least you would have met several successful Caribbean graduates matching and practicing, whereas you probably never met a DO graduate before.

 

[lnguyen1412]

Oversea medical schools are a pretty big thing here in Canada. Mostly because it is next to impossible to get into MD here without an extremely high GPA (3.8+). We can apply to USMD but that's very difficult as well since we are internationals. As a group, Canadian students living in Canada don't really know much about DO schools, and many people don't really trust that they can easily be successfully matched as a DO graduate. It's really not our fault, I mean you'd be wary too if you only read about a particular degree online that requires hundreds of thousands of dollars and doesn't really exist in your country. So if you live in Canada and wish to go to medical school, but can't get into North American MD schools due to your GPA (which can be impossible to fix depending on your situation), then it is very likely that you will pick oversea schools over DO because at least you would have met several successful Caribbean graduates matching and practicing, whereas you probably never met a DO graduate before.

I heard Canadian students go to Caribbean school have easier time to match, is it true? I just want to know because we cannot classified them as US-IMGs

 

[summergirl]

I heard Canadian students go to Caribbean school have easier time to match, is it true? I just want to know because we cannot classified them as US-IMGs

I can't imagine why we'd have an easier time matching. It is easier to match in the US than in Canada as a Caribbean grad (even if you are Canadian), since many Caribbean schools send you to the US to do some of your rotations. But, we would be matching as CAN-IMG, which is much much worse than US-IMG because we need a visa. Our other choice would be to match as an IMG back to Canada, which has a very small selection of programs to begin with. So, it's tough either way.

 

[austintr]

But I mean, it's literally a coin flip of whether you will ever become a doctor. That isn't good odds at all. You'd think that they would get a reality check before they applied to the Caribbean


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Like others have mentioned, many applicants haven't heard of SDN and get all of their info from word of mouth, etc. I think the Caribbean also appeals to people with high aptitude and low drive/priorities not exactly consistent with getting into medical school. People realize they can get in somewhere without trying all that hard, potentially achieve MD status, and it's all good from there. Also there's probably a bit of hubris/self-serving bias and people think they are the exception and would never fail out/fail boards/not match. People don't like to doubt themselves, and a healthy level of self-doubt generally is lacking in a population that makes such shortsighted decisions.

But, at the end of the day, if someone wants to roll the dice on their future because of X reason or Y reason, they're entitled to.

Also, they probably are misinformed about DO's. I know I was for a long time, even though I had one as my primary care doc and worked with several others. And "people who could possibly save your life" may be a bit of a stretch. Most of these applicants are still well within the usual age range of making poor decisions...22 year olds, generally speaking, aren't mature. I don't consider someone with zero medical training and probably little experience in an observation role, someone who could "save my life" until they're well through medical school. Just my 0.02 though!

 

[austintr]

So I was perusing the SGU forum, and I am honestly surprised people apply to these places. Especially if they have even been on SDN, we trash Caribbean schools like they are they plague!

Like any bit of googling and you will discover the 50% match rate, the high rate of attrition, and the low student morale. Why do people not do this?

Do they desire the supposed "prestige" of an MD? Do they want to be a doctor so bad that they are willing to ignore blatant warnings? Are they just misinformed? Do they believe DOs are quacks?

Like the old pre-AMSA president at my university applied to 3 schools with a 3.4/26 our two state MD schools programs and SGU. Last I heard she was starting her second year at SGU. I honestly wonder if she even knew what a big mistake she made?

How can people who could possibly save your life be so ignorant? I honestly don't get it.


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Also, your white supremacist/anti-Semitic/anti-whatever else avatar triggers me. One must appreciate the quality of it though...that is one rare Pepe.

 

[Ho0v-man]

One must also consider that even in the late 90s, Carib vs DO wasn't a big deal. Think about how many of those students may have mentors or family members who went to the island and now are very successful physicians.

One of my mentors is an alum from a no name Carib school. His license isn't even valid in all 50 states. He tried to talk me out of going DO.




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[getfat]

Financial? SGU has outrageous tuition doesn't it? Like more than DO school


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SGU isn't the only option a lot of them go to random caribbean island school of American medicine. By financial I was talking about the strain of retaking classes or graduate school in order to become competitive for DO school. In my state, there is a credit limit for obtaining financial aid. Plus schools down here punish retaking (2.5 cost per credit) classes.

Some people see no other option. Either move forward with caribbean or go work in a cubicle.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ego, impatience, lack of research, desperation, and misinformation pretty much sums it up. Ten years ago the Carib was a fantastic option and I wouldn't fault anyone for going that route, but 2016 is not 2006.

 

[Marrowist]

The beaches mon!

 

[738177]

I heard Canadian students go to Caribbean school have easier time to match, is it true? I just want to know because we cannot classified them as US-IMGs

I doubt that's true.
But i do think that the caliber of Canadian students going to the reputable Caribbean schools might be higher than an average US student going there. This might translate them to scoring better on steps etc. I have a few friends that made it out of the Caribbean (n=4) but these guys were Canadian med school rejects with highly competitive DO stats. The one person i know who didn't match from the Caribbean went to Windsor University after a couple of years of undergrad.

As a Canadian if i was pursuing med, i'd still go to Ireland/Aus over Caribbean. Those schools give you >60% chance of matching back to Canada (+ whatever the chance is of matching in the states). Seems like a much better option considering that the cost would be similar.

 

[ilovegrapesoda]

.

 

[Marrowist]

I wonder how many thousands of times, and hundreds of hours have been spent debating this same thing on the forum each year?

 

[FCMike11]

Honestly I really don't get the whole "DO is far better than Caribbean" thing. I have family members and have seen PLENTY of resident profiles who went to SGU (can't vouch for any other Carib school) who are extremely successful and who praise their school. So I really don't know why people are so against it (besides $$$).

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[Two Sides]

Maybe to avoid "What's a DO?", they don't have the grades for DO schools, to have an MD after their name, or to get into medical school sooner.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Honestly I really don't get the whole "DO is far better than Caribbean" thing. I have family members and have seen PLENTY of resident profiles who went to SGU (can't vouch for any other Carib school) who are extremely successful and who praise their school. So I really don't know why people are so against it (besides $$$).

Because half of the starting class will be dismissed for academic performance by the end of year 2. Then when match time comes, only half of the remaining group will ever match.

You'd be essentially going 500K in debt for a 1/4 chance to become a doctor. not the best odds.

DO schools conversely have 5-8% attrition (almost identical to MD) and a 99% overall placement for being 300K in debt.


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[kelminak]

They simply haven't done enough research or are completely desperate. That's the end of this. If they put in the time to look into both DO and Carib, they'd know going DO dramatically better now.

Honestly I really don't get the whole "DO is far better than Caribbean" thing. I have family members and have seen PLENTY of resident profiles who went to SGU (can't vouch for any other Carib school) who are extremely successful and who praise their school. So I really don't know why people are so against it (besides $$$).

This could be an insightful read for you if you have the time.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

They simply haven't done enough research or are completely desperate. That's the end of this. If they put in the time to look into both DO and Carib, they'd know going DO dramatically better now.



This could be an insightful read for you if you have the time.

Eye opening read, I knew it was bad, but had no idea it was this bad!


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[sdhere1234]

Here's the thing with Caribbean schools.

They accept students who don't belong in med school in the first place. I believe (and have seen tons of friends/classmates do it) that if you can succeed in a US MD/DO school, you can succeed at a school like SGU (succeed = graduate in 4 years and get a match somewhere, specialty aside)

Keep in mind the 50% match rate counts EVERY single offshore school, some that you've never even heard of. If you use match results from only the big 4, or even let's just say SGU, completing your 4 years and passing your boards the first time with average stats will most likely (way higher than 50%) land you a match. Once again, the attrition rate is high because the people who drop out have no business being there in the first place, but these schools know that it's just free money so they cash in.

Thing is, YOU have to know what you're getting yourself into before going offshore. If you're educated about the risks, rewards, and know that your back's against the wall and you control your own fate, then it's an option to consider once everything else has failed.

This post isn't supporting going the Caribbean route, just looking at it from another perspective. Let's face it, there are thousands of graduates every year who match and hundreds even who match into competitive specialties such as neurosug, ortho, ent, etc.

 

[lnguyen1412]

After reading everything on that blog, I was terrified and was glad that I chose to decline my admission at carribean schools. I don't want to be miserable like that. That is scary.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Here's the thing with Caribbean schools.

They accept students who don't belong in med school in the first place. I believe (and have seen tons of friends/classmates do it) that if you can succeed in a US MD/DO school, you can succeed at a school like SGU (succeed = graduate in 4 years and get a match somewhere, specialty aside)

Keep in mind the 50% match rate counts EVERY single offshore school, some that you've never even heard of. If you use match results from only the big 4, or even let's just say SGU, completing your 4 years and passing your boards the first time with average stats will most likely (way higher than 50%) land you a match. Once again, the attrition rate is high because the people who drop out have no business being there in the first place, but these schools know that it's just free money so they cash in.

Thing is, YOU have to know what you're getting yourself into before going offshore. If you're educated about the risks, rewards, and know that your back's against the wall and you control your own fate, then it's an option to consider once everything else has failed.

This post isn't supporting going the Caribbean route, just looking at it from another perspective. Let's face it, there are thousands of graduates every year who match and hundreds even who match into competitive specialties such as neurosug, ortho, ent, etc.

Nice try SGU recruiter


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[sdhere1234]

Nice try SGU recruiter


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SMH no wonder everyone hates you on reddit.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Not trying to blow up the internet here or anything, but why are DOs preferred over IMGs? The biggest complaint about DOs seems to be clinical education. While the "million dollar mistake" has a horrible clinical educational experience I wouldn't wish on anyone, he and all other IMGs still do all of their rotations at acgme residencies. That's more than can be said about a lot of DO schools. (I'm not complaining as this benefits me and I love my school. I'm just genuinely curious.)


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[ATPsynthase123]

SMH no wonder everyone hates you on reddit.

You're indirectly defending the Caribbean scam schools. It's terrible to delude people that "the smart ones" always place. News flash, the smart ones go to a US school. If you go to a Caribbean school there is only a 25% chance you will ever become a physician (50% make it to clinicals, and 50% ever match). The data that NRMP publishes is what you should go by, not the stuff SGU or Saba publish. Of course SGU is going to claim they have amazing match rates, because if they didn't no one would attend there. The "data" they publish exists only to further scam the misinformed and deluded, and only someone as equally deluded would even consider defending these schools


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[sdhere1234]

You're indirectly defending the Caribbean scam schools. It's terrible to delude people that "the smart ones" always place. News flash, the smart ones go to a US school. If you go to a Caribbean school there is only a 25% chance you will ever become a physician (50% make it to clinicals, and 50% ever match). The data that NRMP publishes is what you should go by, not the stuff SGU or Saba publish. Of course SGU is going to claim they have amazing match rates, because if they didn't no one would attend there. The "data" they publish exists only to further scam the misinformed and deluded, and only someone as equally deluded would even consider defending these schools


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Lmao the "data" you're reading takes into account ALL Caribbean schools. You're delusional if you think you have a 25% chance to match if you attend SGU. You asked a question and I responded. Don't get mad cause you don't agree.I explicitly said I don't support going overseas, but clearly it's worked and still does for thousands and thousands of grads who match every year.

I guess I'll tell my friend who matched into categorical gen surg last year and my friend this year with 23 gas invites that they should have considered other options 😉

 

[ATPsynthase123]

Not trying to blow up the internet here or anything, but why are DOs preferred over IMGs? The biggest complaint about DOs seems to be clinical education. While the "million dollar mistake" has a horrible clinical educational experience I wouldn't wish on anyone, he and all other IMGs still do all of their rotations at acgme residencies. That's more than can be said about a lot of DO schools. (I'm not complaining as this benefits me and I love my school. I'm just genuinely curious.)


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If you read the whole article he talks about how they essentially screwed him out of surgery rotations and piece milled his clinical education together on the fly. Like he did a Psych rotation in Baltimore, then immediately had to pack up and move to Miami for a rotation in the ghetto of Miami. Some DO schools do that to you, but most seem to at least assign you a core site for 3rd year and you spend almost all of your time in that hospital/general area. Plus most DO schools don't admit a bunch of people knowing they will flunk out by the end of year 2.

I wonder how much of the IMG avoidance by PDs comes from seeing them as people who make poor/shortsighted decisions, or seeing that they basically went to the Full Sail University version of medical school?


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[ATPsynthase123]

Lmao the "data" you're reading takes into account ALL Caribbean schools. You're delusional if you think you have a 25% chance to match if you attend SGU. You asked a question and I responded. Don't get mad cause you don't agree.I explicitly said I don't support going overseas, but clearly it's worked and still does for thousands and thousands of grads who match every year.

I guess I'll tell my friend who matched into categorical gen surg last year and my friend this year with 23 gas invites that they should have considered other options 😉

Hey, I'm glad that happened to your friends, but that is certainly not the norm. That's how they sell you on it though. IF they do match, they are going to low quality programs that US students don't even want (go a head and tell me how your buddy is actually doing categorical surg at Hopkins). I think your delusional if you even consider the Caribbean a viable option. Double if you spew this garbage on here where some young ill informed premed would read it and believe you.

Willful ignorance and deceptiveness are not traits that a future physician ought to have. Keep that in mind while you defend these scam artists.


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[sdhere1234]

Hey, I'm glad that happened to your friends, but that is certainly not the norm. That's how they sell you on it though. IF they do match, they are going to low quality programs that US students don't even want (go a head and tell me how your buddy is actually doing categorical surg at Hopkins). I think your delusional if you even consider the Caribbean a viable option. Double if you spew this garbage on here where some young ill informed premed would read it and believe you.

Willful ignorance and deceptiveness are not traits that a future physician ought to have. Keep that in mind while you defend these scam artists.


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You act as if US MD grads (let alone DO) just walk into gen surg at hopkins LOL.

You asked why students go to the Caribbean over DO.

Your answer is because it allows them to become a practicing physicians just like osteopathic schools do if they put in the work. End of story.

 

[Goro]

It's worth sharing my thoughts on this again:


The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success one faces by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with grade replacement for these candidates.

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu

TL😀R Carib students value MD > DO, and/or don't wish to engage in the hard work of app repair, in addition to the deficits mentioned above.

So I was perusing the SGU forum, and I am honestly surprised people apply to these places. Especially if they have even been on SDN, we trash Caribbean schools like they are they plague!

Like any bit of googling and you will discover the 50% match rate, the high rate of attrition, and the low student morale. Why do people not do this?

Do they desire the supposed "prestige" of an MD? Do they want to be a doctor so bad that they are willing to ignore blatant warnings? Are they just misinformed? Do they believe DOs are quacks?

Like the old pre-AMSA president at my university applied to 3 schools with a 3.4/26 our two state MD schools programs and SGU. Last I heard she was starting her second year at SGU. I honestly wonder if she even knew what a big mistake she made?

How can people who could possibly save your life be so ignorant? I honestly don't get it.


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[Alienman52]

One must also consider that even in the late 90s, Carib vs DO wasn't a big deal. Think about how many of those students may have mentors or family members who went to the island and now are very successful physicians.

One of my mentors is an alum from a no name Carib school. His license isn't even valid in all 50 states. He tried to talk me out of going DO.




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What was his argument? Lol

 

[Alienman52]

Honestly I really don't get the whole "DO is far better than Caribbean" thing. I have family members and have seen PLENTY of resident profiles who went to SGU (can't vouch for any other Carib school) who are extremely successful and who praise their school. So I really don't know why people are so against it (besides $$$).

 

[Ho0v-man]

What was his argument? Lol

He tried to convince me that it was harder to specialize as a DO vs IMG. He went to school specifically for FM because his dad owns an FM practice and there is a community based FM residency about an hour away (which was taken over by a DO school a few years back). He did residency there. He probably thinks he could have gotten into plenty of other fields since he crushed his steps and is clearly just a very intelligent guy. He was well insulated from most of the problems of being an IMG because he was aiming lower than most would with his scores. It just goes to show that physicians are not necessarily experts on this stuff.

He also mentioned that some docs see DO on the name badge or a consult and question it. He never has that problem. I've seen that plenty and it's not untrue. I remember one interventional cardiologist say he thought DOs were basically orangutans. To sum up his argument: If you're an MD and you suck, it's seen as just one bad apple/a fluke. If you're a DO and suck, it's because you're a stupid DO. Conversely, if an MD or DO is awesome, nobody checks the credentials. It's assumed that you're an MD. It's not fair, but it is reality.


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[ATPsynthase123]

He tried to convince me that it was harder to specialize as a DO vs IMG. He went to school specifically for FM because his dad owns an FM practice and there is a community based FM residency about an hour away (which was taken over by a DO school a few years back). He did residency there. He probably thinks he could have gotten into plenty of other fields since he crushed his steps and is clearly just a very intelligent guy. He was well insulated from most of the problems of being an IMG because he was aiming lower than most would with his scores. It just goes to show that physicians are not necessarily experts on this stuff.

He also mentioned that some docs see DO on the name badge or a consult and question it. He never has that problem. I've seen that plenty and it's not untrue. I remember one interventional cardiologist say he thought DOs were basically orangutans. To sum up his argument: If you're an MD and you suck, it's seen as just one bad apple/a fluke. If you're a DO and suck, it's because you're a stupid DO. Conversely, if an MD or DO is awesome, nobody checks the credentials. It's assumed that you're an MD. It's not fair, but it is reality.


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Like I've said since day one, you don't go into medicine for the prestige of the credentials. You go into medicine to help people. If you are that concerned with the prestige a particular degree gives you (im not saying you are), then you are better off staying out of medicine. Healthcare does not need anymore egotistical elitists.

You can put TURD after my name for all I care. Degree type is irrelevant so long as I am a fully functioning physician. And as long as I am a fully functioning physician, I will be the best one I can be. If an MD colleague wants to talk down on my degree and intelligence, then you'd better bet I'll do every thing in my power to out-perform him and make him look like a damn fool.

However, the situations you describe rarely happen in the real world. At least where I live DOs and MDs are basically indistinguishable. Even the old school docs see DOs as equals. The only people I have ever seen that make a big fuss over MD vs DO are dumb premeds who have no idea what they are talking about. And why really cares about the opinion of that d*ck in Organic Chem anyways? Lol


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[munchmeat]

DO schools are more competitive than any Caribbean school. Some students don't have a choice, and they really want to be doctors.

 

[Ho0v-man]

However, the situations you describe rarely happen in the real world. At least where I live DOs and MDs are basically indistinguishable. Even the old school docs see DOs as equals. The only people I have ever seen that make a big fuss over MD vs DO are dumb premeds who have no idea what they are talking about. And why really cares about the opinion of that d*ck in Organic Chem anyways? Lol


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Agree with most of your post except this part. It is rare, but not as rare as some seem to think. I mainly see it with older specialists. They also usually tend to think noncompetitive specialty=***** and most DOs are PC docs so.




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[ATPsynthase123]

Agree with most of your post except this part. It is rare, but not as rare as some seem to think. I mainly see it with older specialists. They also usually tend to think noncompetitive specialty=***** and most DOs are PC docs so.




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Well who cares about the opinions of a crotchety old cardiologist anyways? Lol


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[Ho0v-man]

Well who cares about the opinions of a crotchety old cardiologist anyways? Lol


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You will when they keep second guessing your diagnoses as it creates more work for you.


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[ATPsynthase123]

You will when they keep second guessing your diagnoses as it creates more work for you.


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By the time I'm in full practice 7ish years from now, I'd hope that most of these people will have retired. Most of the physicians who will be at the old crotchety stage by the time I'm in practice were in med school when DO was getting popular. From what I've seen they carry very little if any bias.


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[LutGholein]

Considering that it objectively is more difficult to get into your standard DO program versus your standard Caribbean program-- it stands to reason that this explains the funneling of students into their respective programs. Take into consideration that the merger will effectively shut out many of these US IMGs-- I don't know why people would set up extra crucibles for themselves and go offshore.

 

[precisiongraphic]

I think some of it is denial and they think they'll be the exception who doesn't flunk/get forced out and will graduate with a high step score and multiple good matches.

Some (based on posts here on SDN) have parents/mentors who are MDs and who not only think DOs are a lesser degree (or at least less useful) and those people convince the person that they'll be ok going offshore. They may also know Carib grads who are good docs and matched (even 10+ years ago) and disregard the current match system and its effect on IMGs. Given that some of these MDs may have pull/connections, their offspring may indeed get better matches because sometimes knowing powerful people is helpful. Also MD offspring would have the $$$ to handle the tuition.

 

[IslandStyle808]

So I was perusing the SGU forum, and I am honestly surprised people apply to these places. Especially if they have even been on SDN, we trash Caribbean schools like they are they plague!

Like any bit of googling and you will discover the 50% match rate, the high rate of attrition, and the low student morale. Why do people not do this?

Do they desire the supposed "prestige" of an MD? Do they want to be a doctor so bad that they are willing to ignore blatant warnings? Are they just misinformed? Do they believe DOs are quacks?

Like the old pre-AMSA president at my university applied to 3 schools with a 3.4/26 our two state MD schools programs and SGU. Last I heard she was starting her second year at SGU. I honestly wonder if she even knew what a big mistake she made?

How can people who could possibly save your life be so ignorant? I honestly don't get it.


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Its because the bulk majority (like 80%) of people who you talk to about getting into medical school are total *****s about the process. I think this was true in my journey when I spoke with pre-med advisors, physicians, academic PhDs, family friends etc. I was lucky I had one smart MD physician (also one smart DO physician), one smart friend, and SDN as well as enough of a brain (I'm not that smart either) to figure out what was the right path. Currently in a DO school and doing above average. So I am thankful to those who advised me and SDN.