Serious question

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I completely disagree with you. You can certainly cure all kinds of conditions and diseases though diet alone.

And what experience, exactly, in nutritional immunology research and the management of chronic disease do you have in order to make such a statement?

Oh wait.

I am looking at the supplemental and wondering if I should even apply... I don't have any biomedical, public health or research experience. Is anyone else applying without this kind of experience?

That explains it.

Diet can be a helpful adjunct treatment in managing SOME disease (manage, not cure). But it is not a cure except in a tiny, tiny minority.
 
The last few comments have solely targeted quack nutrition, not legitimate clinical nutrition. Being a part of research and study in nutrition, as well as seeing first-hand it's use in a clinical setting, doesn't mean I know everything; not even close. However, it has opened me up to a lot more than what the average person sees, or reads, or watches. Allopathic medicine gets little to no education in nutrition, and I'm not sure the depth of veterinary nutrition one receives in school. But to say nutrition serves no purpose except as a healthful adjunct is just flat wrong, I'm sorry.

Since when is cutting a mass out and saying, "yup, cured!" any better medicine than tweaking diet to help a severely obese individual with type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome lose a significant amount of weight, live longer, and reverse their disease? Or allow the individual with Crohn's to manage their situation strictly through food changes instead of immunosuppresants, antibiotics, steroids, and anti-inflammatory meds?
 
The last few comments have solely targeted quack nutrition, not legitimate clinical nutrition. Being a part of research and study in nutrition, as well as seeing first-hand it's use in a clinical setting, doesn't mean I know everything; not even close. But, it has opened me up to a lot more than the average person sees, or reads, or watches. Allopathic medicine gets little to no education in nutrition, and I'm not sure the depth of veterinary nutrition one receives in school. But to say nutrition serves no purpose except as a healthful adjunct is just flat wrong, I'm sorry.

Since when is cutting a mass out and saying, "yup, cured!" any better medicine than tweaking diet to help a severely obese individual with type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome lose a significant amount of weight, live longer, and reverse their disease? Or allow the individual with Crohn's to manage their situation strictly through food changes instead of immunosuppresants, antibiotics, steroids, and anti-inflammatory meds?

As someone whose research is on Crohn's disease, I can guarantee you the bolded is a pipe dream.

With t2d, that is again using diet as an adjunct treatment for management. Not a cure.

That by no means makes diet is unimportant. Or supplements and the like. I fully support it and have several years experience specifically in nutritional immunology in the context of IBD, the latter of which being my main research thrust. But when people start saying diet cures everything...no. Just no.
 
The last few comments have solely targeted quack nutrition, not legitimate clinical nutrition. Being a part of research and study in nutrition, as well as seeing first-hand it's use in a clinical setting, doesn't mean I know everything; not even close. However, it has opened me up to a lot more than what the average person sees, or reads, or watches. Allopathic medicine gets little to no education in nutrition, and I'm not sure the depth of veterinary nutrition one receives in school. But to say nutrition serves no purpose except as a healthful adjunct is just flat wrong, I'm sorry.

Since when is cutting a mass out and saying, "yup, cured!" any better medicine than tweaking diet to help a severely obese individual with type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome lose a significant amount of weight, live longer, and reverse their disease? Or allow the individual with Crohn's to manage their situation strictly through food changes instead of immunosuppresants, antibiotics, steroids, and anti-inflammatory meds?

Nobody is saying that diet can't help with certain conditions... but the number of conditions it legitimately helps with is very, very small. Yes, you can treat a type 2 diabetic via nutrition and exercise PROVIDED they will follow through with it. However, you still need insulin and diabetic medications in order to get the patient to a point where diet can be of help.

Diet can be used in conjunction with treatment, but diet is not a sole treatment alone for really any condition... with my being able to slightly give a minor exception to type 2 diabetes.

Diet will not be the "future of medicine" simply because you can not cure diseases through diet alone. The alone part being very important here.
 
"here's the secret your doctor doesn't want you to know!"

I'm friends with a guy on facebook who is constantly posting "medical medium" posts. Totally worth a read if you need a laugh. did you know that lemons cleanse the liver and garlic is the only antibiotic that should ever be used???
 
Nobody is saying that diet can't help with certain conditions... but the number of conditions it legitimately helps with is very, very small. Yes, you can treat a type 2 diabetic via nutrition and exercise PROVIDED they will follow through with it. However, you still need insulin and diabetic medications in order to get the patient to a point where diet can be of help.

Diet can be used in conjunction with treatment, but diet is not a sole treatment alone for really any condition... with my being able to slightly give a minor exception to type 2 diabetes.

Diet will not be the "future of medicine" simply because you can not cure diseases through diet alone. The alone part being very important here.
You can cure some diseases. But they are the diseases that are caused by nutritional deficiencies.

Diet and nutrition are important. I didn't say that they weren't. But to say that they cure disease is an overreach at best. Some people truly believe in the quack medicine, too. Also, putting diabetes into remission is not a cure. Cutting out a mass can be curative. Big difference.
 
I'm friends with a guy on facebook who is constantly posting "medical medium" posts. Totally worth a read if you need a laugh. did you know that lemons cleanse the liver and garlic is the only antibiotic that should ever be used???
It cures parvo, too 😉
 
I remember driving on my way home for Christmas break, and I passed a cattle feed lot. There were cattle crowded together eating on one side of the holding area, and on the other side there were 3 decaying corpses laying in the snow. I have no idea what meat company those cattle were going to, and since there is no way for me to know for sure, that's just not something I want to support. That was before I became I vegetarian, but I haven't eaten beef since then.


I went to undergrad in western Nebraska and pass around seven feedlots between there and Denver. I have never seen a dead cow in any of them in 4.5 years. It's not the norm. You also have to consider the shear statistic of it. If feedlot processes 1000 cattle a month and only three die in the waiting process, that's pretty freaking good and suggests something else going on with the cow besides neglect.
 
I mean what's wrong with lemons and garlic and coconut oil though :sorry: I get that you guys don't think these things can cure major diseases but I don't think that means they're dismissible I think they have real benefits for people and can even lead to healthier individuals. Speaking for myself and some others I know, I sort of feel like when people in the scientific community totally dismiss people who talk about these things it may turn people further away from solely trusting traditional medicine
 
I just don't like when "health trends" move away from being sustainable - quinoa, avocado, etc.


In other news, I don't know if any of you have heard, but bananas are totally f***ed.
 
I think some people would say that the meat industry may not exactly be sustainable either though. But I hear what you are saying. What's up with bananas no I haven't heard
 
I mean what's wrong with lemons and garlic and coconut oil though :sorry: I get that you guys don't think these things can cure major diseases but I don't think that means they're dismissible I think they have real benefits for people and can even lead to healthier individuals. Speaking for myself and some others I know, I sort of feel like when people in the scientific community totally dismiss people who talk about these things it may turn people further away from solely trusting traditional medicine

I think the point being made was related to when things like lemon, garlic, coconut oil, and apple cider vinegar are wrongly elevated to being considered miracle cures for anything and everything. They certainly do have real health benefits, and that's not being dismissed by anyone here I don't think. The reality is, though, that one cannot cure parvo with garlic or cancer with coconut oil. Unfortunately, some people who are distrusting of modern medicine and/or less than scientifically literate think that you can. Worse, said people will act on that "knowledge" to the detriment of themselves or their animals. That is the issue the comments above are getting at, and it certainly is a very real problem.
 
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I mean what's wrong with lemons and garlic and coconut oil

How about hemolytic anemia and pancreatitis, amongst other things.

Actually, in a pinch, the lemons may help with your garlic toxicity anemia pet... If you can get that sick pet to actually ingest lemons. Huh... You might be onto something.
 
I think the point being made was related to when things like lemon, garlic, coconut oil, and apple cider vinegar are wrongly elevated to being considered miracle cures for anything and everything. They certainly do have very real health benefits, but the reality is that one cannot cure parvo with garlic or cancer with coconut oil. Unfortunately, some people who are very distrusting of modern medicine and/or less than scientifically literate think that you can. Worse, said people will act on that knowledge to the detriment of themselves or their animals. That is the issue the comments above are getting at.
I definitely understand what you mean I just meant that sometimes the attitudes of both sides just lead to more people on each extreme which in our unfortunate case as doctors or future doctors would mean more people who are very distrusting of modern medicine
 
How about hemolytic anemia and pancreatitis, amongst other things.

Actually, in a pinch, the lemons may help with your garlic toxicity anemia pet... If you can get that sick pet to actually ingest lemons. Huh... You might be onto something.
Oh wait no I didn't mean for pets I thought we were talking about human medicine :hilarious:
 
Well this is the **** we deal with everyday. I don't know how many times I need to tell people to stop ****ing putting in x,y,z in the ****ing dog's ears. I don't care how ****ing "holistic" you think it is. It is NOT helping, in fact it is making it worse. And if you actually used a legit antiparasitic rather than ****ing garlic, maybe we wouldn't have the goddam ear infections that you will never treat properly and hence the dog essentially needs to have the ear canal surgically removed as a salvage procedure so they are no longer painful. See, when you deal with this level of stupidity, there is no compromising. I need to advocate for the patient and make these people stop. It's harmful.

If something isn't likely to be harmful, I don't really care what people do. Once we have the problem figured out, I don't care if people want to try this or that to see if it is helpful for the patient. But refusal to actually help the pet with evidence based medicine because of some wonky self-conviction is unacceptable. My job is to advocate for the patient. If that is othering/alienating to a certain clientele, I don't really care. I can't help everyone in the manner that they want to be helped. They can find someone else holier than myself.
 
I think some people would say that the meat industry may not exactly be sustainable either though. But I hear what you are saying. What's up with bananas no I haven't heard

Meat is also not sustainable at this moment. I agree. I was just using super on trend examples. Lol.

So the bananas you typically find in the supermarket are all clones of each other worldwide. They have almost no genetic diversity. There are other varieties of bananas that are not mass produced (Apple-bananas, and things like plantains, etc) So before 1965, people were all eating a better banana, that has since gone extinct. Now, the bananas we eat/buy are severely threatened by a Panamanian disease called Tropical Race 4, which has already caused mass banana crop problems. Eventually (very soon) we will have to find/develop a new banana to commercially produce. It's craziness but very interesting. I'm on my phone, but I'll post links to sources.
 
Meat is also not sustainable at this moment. I agree. I was just using super on trend examples. Lol.

So the bananas you typically find in the supermarket are all clones of each other worldwide. They have almost no genetic diversity. There are other varieties of bananas that are not mass produced (Apple-bananas, and things like plantains, etc) So before 1965, people were all eating a better banana, that has since gone extinct. Now, the bananas we eat/buy are severely threatened by a Panamanian disease called Tropical Race 4, which has already caused mass banana crop problems. Eventually (very soon) we will have to find/develop a new banana to commercially produce. It's craziness but very interesting. I'm on my phone, but I'll post links to sources.
Fascinating! I'll have to look up more about this!
Well this is the **** we deal with everyday. I don't know how many times I need to tell people to stop ****ing putting in x,y,z in the ****ing dog's ears. I don't care how ****ing "holistic" you think it is. It is NOT helping, in fact it is making it worse. And if you actually used a legit antiparasitic rather than ****ing garlic, maybe we wouldn't have the goddam ear infections that you will never treat properly and hence the dog essentially needs to have the ear canal surgically removed as a salvage procedure so they are no longer painful. See, when you deal with this level of stupidity, there is no compromising. I need to advocate for the patient and make these people stop. It's harmful.

If something isn't likely to be harmful, I don't really care what people do. Once we have the problem figured out, I don't care if people want to try this or that to see if it is helpful for the patient. But refusal to actually help the pet with evidence based medicine because of some wonky self-conviction is unacceptable. My job is to advocate for the patient. If that is othering/alienating to a certain clientele, I don't really care. I can't help everyone in the manner that they want to be helped. They can find someone else holier than myself.
I get what you're saying. I'm sure the position you're in is insanely frustrating and I do like hearing yours and other doctor's perspectives on these things because I realize I haven't had to deal with these issues at that level
 
Also, bluenose, there's a certain amount of venting here that isn't done in front of the client. I educate my clients why I am not a fan of garlic or lemon or whatever and explain disease processes. Usually, they make the right decision themselves. There is a certain amount of belief in treatments that are actually harmful and those I'm a little more aggressive with. Also, homeopathy is complete bunk and I really don't like that they use an alcoholic base for pets occasionally.
 

I went to undergrad in western Nebraska and pass around seven feedlots between there and Denver. I have never seen a dead cow in any of them in 4.5 years. It's not the norm. You also have to consider the shear statistic of it. If feedlot processes 1000 cattle a month and only three die in the waiting process, that's pretty freaking good and suggests something else going on with the cow besides neglect.
To add onto this @hazelmoo, it's not entirely unheard of for a humanely euthanized animal of that size to be left in place for a few days, especially if it's cold out. Without knowing what was going on at all, you can only speculate. For all we know, those 3 animals had horrendous foot rot that the vet couldn't manage within the owner's budget. They were unable to walk elsewhere without extreme pain, so they were euthanized on the spot. Who knows. Usually, you'd walk them elsewhere, but like I said, we have no idea what the situation was or how long they'd been there. Plus, asking beef to cooperate with you is not exactly the easiest thing to do.
 
I definitely understand what you mean I just meant that sometimes the attitudes of both sides just lead to more people on each extreme which in our unfortunate case as doctors or future doctors would mean more people who are very distrusting of modern medicine
I had one more thing to say to this. Sometimes, we *have* to take a hard stance or it legitimizes treatments that may be harmful or prevent good, solid treatments from taking place. For instance, your dog has a mast cell tumor (MCT) and someone told you that coconut oil slathered on it would cure it without harmful things like chemo and surgery. We know that's not the case and that in certain cases, MCT is cured by excision. If it means that you place your dog in danger of metastatic disease as a result, I am going to tell you it is a bad plan and I'm not okay with that.
 
To add onto this @hazelmoo, it's not entirely unheard of for a humanely euthanized animal of that size to be left in place for a few days, especially if it's cold out. Without knowing what was going on at all, you can only speculate. For all we know, those 3 animals had horrendous foot rot that the vet couldn't manage within the owner's budget. They were unable to walk elsewhere without extreme pain, so they were euthanized on the spot. Who knows. Usually, you'd walk them elsewhere, but like I said, we have no idea what the situation was or how long they'd been there. Plus, asking beef to cooperate with you is not exactly the easiest thing to do.
The other thing that I think people miss in the PETA style advertising is that there's 0 benefit to a farmer/feedlot owner to dead cows. There's no benefit to causing the cows unnecessary stress. They don't grow that way. It's detrimental to the owner to treat the cows poorly because that loses money. That's not to say that abuse doesn't happen, because well, some humans are jerks. But using abuse by a few to damn the whole animal production system is like saying that people shouldn't have pets because some jerks abuse their dogs.
 
Which I'm pretty sure is another thing that PETA would agree with

That is definitely one of their stances. Ingrid Newkirk compares pet ownership to slavery when asked about it.
 
That is definitely one of their stances. Ingrid Newkirk compares pet ownership to slavery when asked about it.
I'm at work so I don't have the time to find this on the interwebs but mental image:

Kitty stretching towards the camera with a paw outstretched and a lazy yawn and the caption "I'm a slave... for you" (You know the music lyric) then the kitten hisses, turns and attacks a ball of string before bouncing off camera, just to peek it's head around the corner with a new caption "Now feed me and clean my litter box before my nap."
 
The whole decision is actually quite misleading. They did not say it is as dangerous as smoking or asbestos. They said they are as certain it causes cancer as they are smoking and asbestos cause cancer. Group 1 carcinogens just have a high degree of certainty of being linked to cancer. It's a terrible ranking system. Based on certainty, not how dangerous.

Read this after putting a double bacon pizza in the oven..... well it will still taste delicious!

Even though it turned out to not be as dangerous, the fact that almost everything that tastes good can cause cancer, diabetes, etc. is depressing.

*goes and eats raw green beans with nothing on them* 🙁

Well actually they're kinda good xD

....wait? Will green beans kill us too? o.0

Wait...wait...I know how to solve this problem. I just won't eat anything. Ever again. That will totally work, right? (I'm joking 😛

Seriously though I hope at least the veggies I eat are not putting me at higher disease risk.
 
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I'm at work so I don't have the time to find this on the interwebs but mental image:

Kitty stretching towards the camera with a paw outstretched and a lazy yawn and the caption "I'm a slave... for you" (You know the music lyric) then the kitten hisses, turns and attacks a ball of string before bouncing off camera, just to peek it's head around the corner with a new caption "Now feed me and clean my litter box before my nap."

Day made. Best use of a Britney Spears song ever.
 
Even though it turned out to not be as dangerous, the fact that almost everything that tastes good can cause cancer, diabetes, etc. is depressing.

*goes and eats raw green beans with nothing on them* 🙁

Well actually they're kinda good xD

....wait? Will green beans kill us too? o.0

Wait...wait...I know how to solve this problem. I just won't eat anything. Ever again. That will totally work, right? (I'm joking 😛

Seriously though I hope at least the veggies I eat are not putting me at higher disease risk.

You are constantly being berated with radiation from pretty much everything around you and the sun. Lol. So cancer shmancer, right? Lol
 
My wife was asked by her pharmacy school if I was going to become a vegetarian after getting into vet school. I went the other direction and started harvesting naturally organic meat.
 
You are constantly being berated with radiation from pretty much everything around you and the sun. Lol. So cancer shmancer, right? Lol
Yeah seriously. Even your cell phone emits some amount of radiation. Every so often it seems like people get freaked out and word spreads not to keep them in your pockets.
 
Yeah seriously. Even your cell phone emits some amount of radiation. Every so often it seems like people get freaked out and word spreads not to keep them in your pockets.
Or sleep with your phone by your head, or eat a banana, or watch your dinner cook in the microwave, or walk in the sun..... And so on. Lol
 
something that people might want to consider. It is an integral part of vet med to understand the food industry. Most schools tour your through an abattoir - it was a major part of our grade for the rotation it was on. You will have to learn large animal/food animal medicine in order to pass the NAVLE. If that makes you uncomfortable, you might want to think about it.

And if you go to school in the UK (Or at least Glasgow still does), you become licensed to work in one.
I had to know all the public health things, laws, how to properly kill and cut down, and all the processes in between. Toured many abattoirs.
Pretty good with a captive bolt gun now....we shall see how useful that is down the line...

Oh and...bacon.
I had a maple bacon doughnut today. It was amazing.
 
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