Seriously, SHAME on UCSF for promoting an UNPAID full-time postdoctoral program

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The northeast is expensive, cold, and uptight.

The south is poor, obsolete, and ignorant.

Florida is just plain old crazy. With bugs the size of gators.

The midwest is basically the south except the weather is worse, the people are fatter, and the houses are more expensive.

The southwest is hot, meth-infused, and the only cuisine to eat is Texican.

The northwest is pretentious, rainy, and nearly as expensive as California.

California may be pricy like New York, nutty like Florida, and poorly educated like Mississippi, but there's a reason everyone wants to live here and those who do want to stay. Maybe it's the weather, maybe it's the water, maybe it's because we can be smug *******s towards the rest of the country, but damn I love this place!

🙄🙄🙄

I am going to assume that you were being facetious and were not deliberately trying to be offensive here, but still.


There is NO single aspect of living in California that cannot also be obtained elsewhere in the country. Believe it or not, many other states are also bordered by an ocean. Other cultures? Yep, those exist in other states, too, as do all types of ethnic cuisines. You do not have to live in CA to experience good weather (which isn't a universally agreed-upon construct, btw - 70 degrees and sunny is not something that I want to experience every day of the year). It is very tiresome, to say the least, when Californians make broad generalizations and assumptions about other places. It is even more tiresome when people are openly dismissive and condescending about the majority of the country.

I am not even a little bit sympathetic to people (and I'm not referring to any specific SDN poster here) who dilute the integrity of our field by shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars for mediocre training, taking subpar internships, and then flooding the job market to the point that sites can actually get away with offering unpaid positions - all because they are simply unwilling to leave the state like the rest of us.
 
Where is the evidence that substantiates claims about quality of care from graduates of for-profit institutions being significantly different than graduates from funded programs? This seems to be frequently taken for granted here, but I'm unaware of any research investigating this question.

It makes sense to me that this would be a good place to start if we want to do something to change the situation.
 
Can we stop bashing people from California or blaming one group for the current state of affairs? The truth is that our field is oversaturated in many locations, including many parts of the northeast, CA, Chicago, NYC, Florida. Even Alaska has over 100 applicants for internship. The development in unpaid postdocs, especially in reputable med schools like UCSF, is harmful to all of us in this field. This affects all of us negatively and is likely to continue to expand with the proliferation of for profit schools everywhere in the country. By the way, CA is not the only state that has barely paid postdocs or unpaid postdocs, although there are more in numbers in CA. I've seen ads for postdocs that pay 15K in other states too.
 
Terrible place to start. Sounds great, however, it is very complicated research, logistically. What are your outcome measures? How do you get them?

Here's what we know:

- PsyD students, in general, are far more likely to take non APA approved internships (to the tune of around 50%).

- PsyD graduates are far more likely to fail the EPPP at least one time


- PsyD graduates have lower undergrad and GRE scores, as a group


- PsyD graduates appear willing to take on 6 figure debt for a job that averages ~60K per year

- PsyD graduates are more likely to take unpaid internships and postdocs.

-PsyD programs are more likely to be funded almost entirely by loans

- PsyD faculty tend to have fewer publications, grant support, and/or credentials to be faculty at a university. Kind of like a medical school hiring the local private practice doc to teach.

- PsyD programs (a few in particular) are contributing disproportionately to the internship match imbalance.

- The flooding of the field for the sake of profit/existence currently being engaged in by PsyD programs is resulting in unpaid internships, postdocs, moves to eliminate the internship experience, moves to eliminate postdoc, and lobbying to lower requirements in general. As PsyDs now make up more than 50% of new graduates in clinical psychology, all funded by loan money, we are changing the average psychologist to someone with a substandard (as compared to what psychology was) educational background with 6 figure debt, limited exposure to experts in training, and, I believe, a different mindset compared to what we were. By different mindset, I think these people are more readily accepting of being labeled as "midlevel" practitioners, and more likely to be anti-science, or, rather, not good at scientific thinking. Basically, they are glorified, marginally, social workers. This is all happening so that people at professional schools can play at being university faculty and stock holders, deans, administration at these schools can profit. They are able to do this because they can always find someone ignorant enough to pursue a doctorate at whatever cost. We cannot expect that supply of students to run out. Psychology is a popular major. Lots of marginal students available to enroll in a "doctorate" program. Thus, as a field, we must shut them down. At this point, it's going to require graduates of those programs to support and help us to shut them down, as they now, politically, comprise a large percentage of our field. Malignancy is the proper term here.

Regarding focusing on clinical outcomes research, if all of the above doesn't result in an inferior practitioner, why bother having standards at all? Also consider the future development of the field. The parameters as they are, you are necessarily going to drive the brighter students from psychology. That can't be good long term.

Amen 👍
 
Where is the evidence that substantiates claims about quality of care from graduates of for-profit institutions being significantly different than graduates from funded programs? This seems to be frequently taken for granted here, but I'm unaware of any research investigating this question.

It makes sense to me that this would be a good place to start if we want to do something to change the situation.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/tep/4/2/116/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

http://sgo.sagepub.com/content/3/2/2158244013489689.short

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/tep/6/1/1/

That's a start.

It's not that everyone in such programs is a poor student, and it's not that offering a psyd or joining the ncspp magically makes your school bad. Rather, schools willing to take a wide range of people and dozens upon dozens of applicants, including people who could be logistically predicted to do poorly in training, internship placement, and the eppp later based on available data, are going to offer a particular kind of degree--those same "wide range" people are also the people who think research is icky and math is hard, and want to do bat**** crazy therapy instead of actual science (several examples are evident from strolls through the archives of this forum, frankly...).
 
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Terrible place to start. Sounds great, however, it is very complicated research, logistically. What are your outcome measures? How do you get them?

Here's what we know:

- PsyD students, in general, are far more likely to take non APA approved internships (to the tune of around 50%).

- PsyD graduates are far more likely to fail the EPPP at least one time


- PsyD graduates have lower undergrad and GRE scores, as a group


- PsyD graduates appear willing to take on 6 figure debt for a job that averages ~60K per year

- PsyD graduates are more likely to take unpaid internships and postdocs.

-PsyD programs are more likely to be funded almost entirely by loans

- PsyD faculty tend to have fewer publications, grant support, and/or credentials to be faculty at a university. Kind of like a medical school hiring the local private practice doc to teach.

- PsyD programs (a few in particular) are contributing disproportionately to the internship match imbalance.

- The flooding of the field for the sake of profit/existence currently being engaged in by PsyD programs is resulting in unpaid internships, postdocs, moves to eliminate the internship experience, moves to eliminate postdoc, and lobbying to lower requirements in general. As PsyDs now make up more than 50% of new graduates in clinical psychology, all funded by loan money, we are changing the average psychologist to someone with a substandard (as compared to what psychology was) educational background with 6 figure debt, limited exposure to experts in training, and, I believe, a different mindset compared to what we were. By different mindset, I think these people are more readily accepting of being labeled as "midlevel" practitioners, and more likely to be anti-science, or, rather, not good at scientific thinking. Basically, they are glorified, marginally, social workers. This is all happening so that people at professional schools can play at being university faculty and stock holders, deans, administration at these schools can profit. They are able to do this because they can always find someone ignorant enough to pursue a doctorate at whatever cost. We cannot expect that supply of students to run out. Psychology is a popular major. Lots of marginal students available to enroll in a "doctorate" program. Thus, as a field, we must shut them down. At this point, it's going to require graduates of those programs to support and help us to shut them down, as they now, politically, comprise a large percentage of our field. Malignancy is the proper term here.

Regarding focusing on clinical outcomes research, if all of the above doesn't result in an inferior practitioner, why bother having standards at all? Also consider the future development of the field. The parameters as they are, you are necessarily going to drive the brighter students from psychology. That can't be good long term.

Post of the year
 
The southwest is hot, meth-infused, and the only cuisine to eat is Texican.

The southwest is hot if you're not from there (and only in certain parts of the southwest). Also note that everyone there treats AC seriously, and usually have great AC units. It is less meth infused than many other areas (*cough, florida, appalachia*) and Texican is not really a cusine, but a language. If you're referring to Tex-Mex, that is a specific cuisine, and you might not know the right way to find it. Tex-Mex, Mexican, and Southwest cuisine, as a native Texan, are three distinct types of food in my mind.
 
Back to the legality of all of this...In order for a internship/postdoc to comply with federal regulations, the employer cannot derive any immediate advantage and the postdoc/intern does NOT replace a regular employee. Can you argue that an unpaid full-time postdoc at UCSF is not providing a huge service to hospital? Even if you are getting a couple of hours of supervision, you are still seeing a full caseload of patients, and thus are already violating federal law. Because they have such a large postdoc/internship program in every part of the hospital (primary care, substance abuse, trauma), this is also likely reducing the number of full-time psychologists they will hire in the future. Whenever there is some budget cut, the administrators will just hire additional unpaid staff as opposed to full-time licensed psychologists.

"The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded; "

I think these programs would shut down if someone actually sued them. Joanna is the first person to have sued and she just literally received back pay (the article I read was from august 2013). The UCSF postdoctoral program (faculty-staff assistance) is now offering a stipend to postdoctoral fellows. I saw an add for the program a while back.
 
Can we stop bashing people from California or blaming one group for the current state of affairs? The truth is that our field is oversaturated in many locations, including many parts of the northeast, CA, Chicago, NYC, Florida. Even Alaska has over 100 applicants for internship. The development in unpaid postdocs, especially in reputable med schools like UCSF, is harmful to all of us in this field. This affects all of us negatively and is likely to continue to expand with the proliferation of for profit schools everywhere in the country. By the way, CA is not the only state that has barely paid postdocs or unpaid postdocs, although there are more in numbers in CA. I've seen ads for postdocs that pay 15K in other states too.

x2. People in this field seem to think that "it won't happen here" but this unpaid post-doc situation will be almost everywhere eventually. Another worrisome fact is that I know of a few high quality medical school pre-doctoral internships, such as Wayne State School of Medicine, that have dicontinued their training because interns just don't generate profit anymore due to insurance rate cuts.

For all those saying that medical fields are having troubles commensurate with psychology, can you tell me any unmatched psychiatry residents or any unpaid fellowships for physicians, particularly psychiatrists?
 
Can we stop bashing people from California or blaming one group for the current state of affairs? The truth is that our field is oversaturated in many locations, including many parts of the northeast, CA, Chicago, NYC, Florida. Even Alaska has over 100 applicants for internship. The development in unpaid postdocs, especially in reputable med schools like UCSF, is harmful to all of us in this field. This affects all of us negatively and is likely to continue to expand with the proliferation of for profit schools everywhere in the country. By the way, CA is not the only state that has barely paid postdocs or unpaid postdocs, although there are more in numbers in CA. I've seen ads for postdocs that pay 15K in other states too.

Amen. There's a defined anti-CA stance in this board (actually it's just erg) and my post was simply to stir the hornet's nest. Notice how I also mocked CA in my post and yet everyone responded so seriously...jeez. Plenty of top quality programs at CA to go with the garbage, and yes we are the land of nuts and fruits. But then, every place has its pros and cons.

Except Florida. Sorry Jon but seriously, every time someone eats someone's face or stores grandma's body in self-storage or smears feces on someone else it always happens in Florida.
 
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/tep/4/2/116/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

http://sgo.sagepub.com/content/3/2/2158244013489689.short

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/tep/6/1/1/

That's a start.

It's not that everyone in such programs is a poor student, and it's not that offering a psyd or joining the ncspp magically makes your school bad. Rather, schools willing to take a wide range of people and dozens upon dozens of applicants, including people who could be logistically predicted to do poorly in training, internship placement, and the eppp later based on available data, are going to offer a particular kind of degree--those same "wide range" people are also the people who think research is icky and math is hard, and want to do bat**** crazy therapy instead of actual science (several examples are evident from strolls through the archives of this forum, frankly...).

Thanks for all of this in one tidy post (and all the work you're doing in this area)! 👍
 
I believe it would be best instead of bashing all of the Psy.D. Programs, it would be best to get rid of the blatantly for profits such as Argosy, Alliant, and Forest Institute. Then strengthen the existing University Psy.D. programs and make them somewhat more research based. But yes people will pursue doctorates at all costs, that does not necessarily make all Psy.D.s useless. I think I'm just somewhere in the middle of all of this.
 
I'm just wondering what the purpose of the PsyD is now that we have balanced PhD programs.
 
I'm just wondering what the purpose of the PsyD is now that we have balanced PhD programs.

I mean I understand where you are coming from, but I mean we can make the PsyD more useful as a profession. I'm not saying I have all the answers, but we have to start somewhere.
 
Now that anyone can get a PsyD or PHD from these lower tier schools, the degree itself has become meaningless. People who go to top programs (both PhD and PsyD) that are funded still do pretty well, even though they are facing stiffer competition each year. The 2nd tier (mostly professional school grads) generally do not complete accredited internships, a portion never get licensed (sometimes 50% of graduates), another portion ends up with unpaid or minimum wage postdocs. Many end up with a similar salary to MFT's, but with 150K plus in debt. The top students from these programs (maybe 5-10% top of class) end up doing fine. The value of our degree has declined dramatically, especially now that there is a huge market for unpaid postdocs and internships. I haven't heard of this happening in any field (PhD's in the social sciences, humanities do not take on unpaid postdocs).
 
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Now that anyone can get a PsyD or PHD from these lower tier schools, the degree itself has become meaningless. People who go to top programs (both PhD and PsyD) that are funded still do pretty well, even though they are facing stiffer competition each year. The 2nd tier (mostly professional school grads) generally do not complete accredited internships, a portion never get licensed (sometimes 50% of graduates), another portion ends up with unpaid or minimum wage postdocs. Many end up with a similar salary to MFT's, but with 150K plus in debt. The top students from these programs (maybe 5-10% top of class) end up doing fine. The value of our degree has declined dramatically, especially now that there is a huge market for unpaid postdocs and internships. I haven't heard of this happening in any field (PhD's in the social sciences, humanities do not take on unpaid postdocs).

Well we all have to band together and change this somehow.
 
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