Sexist comments

[HurricaneMB]

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nevermind

 

[Blackstars]

Do you want a cookie?

 

[vietcongs]

I was angry at one old evil attending who asked me pimp questions, which I got wrong once. Then he told me "I think you should become a nurse instead."

I wonder if he tells the guys that when they can't answer to his pimping!

He also made another female med student cry because he biotched her out about something then told her she'd never get into a peds residency with her level of intelligence.

A-holes like that make me even more determined. Never show weakness.

 

[ChunkyLover69]

I was angry at one old evil attending who asked me pimp questions, which I got wrong once. Then he told me "I think you should become a nurse instead."

Pimp questions? and you got them wrong?... what in the world are you talking about.

As for hurricane, I think your being too subjective. Jokes are placed on everyone. No one is actually preventing you from doing the type of surgery you would like to. No one is stopping you. If you want to do neuro, then stop whinning and do it.

 

[tom_jones]

I am by no means the miltant feminst type who picks apart every comment looking for sexist undertones

Yes you are

 

[Optimistic]

I hear those comments on daily bases in my surgery rotation. But I dont get offended because I know they do really mean well. I also feel like they are not discouraging me from becoming surgeon but are trying to tell me the real advantages and disadvantages of choosing this field .Also I guess it also depends on the way they say it. However I do understand how it could be annoying after a while...But most surgeons I have worked are very nice and professional and love to teach and over all I am lovin my rotation 🙂

 

[sambo]

I was angry at one old evil attending who asked me pimp questions, which I got wrong once. Then he told me "I think you should become a nurse instead."

Pimp questions? and you got them wrong?... what in the world are you talking about.

As for hurricane, I think your being too subjective. Jokes are placed on everyone. No one is actually preventing you from doing the type of surgery you would like to. No one is stopping you. If you want to do neuro, then stop whinning and do it.

Pimping= attendings asking residents and med students questions (medically related), and usually belittling them when they answer incorrectly. You must be new to the field.

 

[EctopicFetus]

This topic makes me want to laugh.. Jeez to the person who only got one question wrong during the "pimping" session. Believe me, if you only got one wrong then you are a stud. More than that and you should seriously drop out of school right now. People need to develop some thick skin. NO one said this s*** would be easy. You will be belittled dont cry about it. Suck it up and learn this s*** so your attending can see what a stud/studette you are.

 

[Willamette]

I was angry at one old evil attending who asked me pimp questions, which I got wrong once. Then he told me "I think you should become a nurse instead."

I wonder if he tells the guys that when they can't answer to his pimping!

He also made another female med student cry because he biotched her out about something then told her she'd never get into a peds residency with her level of intelligence.

A-holes like that make me even more determined. Never show weakness.

This is one guy who'd laugh his a$$ off if he got told he should've been a nurse instead! It's even funnier that way, and I'd have something to "brag" about when we're all sitting around waiting for conference and bitching about how all surgeons are jacka$$es...
The problem is, I'm a pretty big and mean looking guy, and even the ortho-dorks seemed like they'd rather just leave me alone. Oh well, at least I got called all sorts of non-PC stuff when I was in the navy (kinda makes anything derogatory that comes from these science-nerd types seem bush-league, you know?).

Willamete

 

[ericdamiansean]

nevermind

and your point is? 😉

 

[Optimistic]

nevermind

Gotta be more stronger and confident than that to become a surgeon ... I guess 😛

 

[ericdamiansean]

Gotta be more stronger and confident than that to become a surgeon ... I guess 😛

Nah, it's not tat necessary these days..someday, surgeons will be replaced by them robots

 

[Optimistic]

Nah, it's not tat necessary these days..someday, surgeons will be replaced by them robots

I highly doubt that day is ever gonna come 🙂

 

[ericdamiansean]

I highly doubt that day is ever gonna come 🙂

That's why you are Optimistic

 

[roja]

Telling a female student she should be nurse is incredibly sexist. And it is something that any school with even a half assed lawyer would start to sweat at if they heard it. In this day and age, it has NO PLACE in academia.

Comments like this should be passed on to the course director.

As to thick skins, this is such a bullsh*t concept that the job of attendins is to belittle. I tend to call it the 'small penis syndrome' but I have met enough female attendings that try and compensate for thier own insecurities by belittling students.

Attendings are there to TEACH. if you new it all, then you sure as hell wouldn't need to go to med school. And there are adult ways to say to a student that is giving a poor performance that they need to step it up. its unprofessional and ridiculous that some accept this as 'normal'.

Thank god my school didn't try and be some small minded high school. They expected MS to behave professionally adn the same from attendings and residents.


/rant

 

[toofache32]

Telling a female student she should be nurse is incredibly sexist... In this day and age, it has NO PLACE in academia.

/rant

How about baking me a pie?

 

[roja]

Sure.. I think I have a little arsenic to sprinkle on top. 🙂

 

[stormjen]

But most surgeons I have worked are very nice and professional and love to teach and over all I am lovin my rotation 🙂

Most of the surgeons were nice? Where did you rotate, lol...

 

[Leukocyte]

nevermind

Nevermind???? No, you should mind. This is against the LAW. We are in the US and people here have rights. If this micro-dicked/Small- breasted "attending" is a FMG, then I think you should give him/her "a lesson in US Criminal Law 101"......THE HARD WAY.

 

[daisygirl]

Sure.. I think I have a little arsenic to sprinkle on top. 🙂

 

[Boomer]

If this micro-dicked/Small- breasted "attending" is a FMG,

Comparing this line, to your signature, all I can say is: HUH?

You sound like the pot discussing the kettle re: FMGs......

 

[delchrys]

wow, you folks really can turn a potentially informative thread into crap pretty quickly.

My girlfriend and my sister are both in med school (as well as my best friend, and his wife is in her internship). the gf is in a top allopathic program, graduating this May, and the rest are in or graduated from DO school.

all three of the women mentioned in the above paragraph have deal with incredibly sexist crap. first, the fact that they are called "nurse" virtually every day they work in a hospital. granted, no harm is done there, as none of them have egos that sensitive or overblown, but it shows the underlying sexism that pervades the patients and the staff.

second, the nurses, while generally friendly to them, always seem to have a few bad apples who truly hate female physicians and especially female med students for having "broken rank" with them or some BS. so that makes their lives (the lives of the women i love) that much harder.

third, there are the sexist comments that amount to blatant harrassment by the male surgeons and other male physicians with whom they work. my girlfriend is the one i will draw the following examples from:

working on a surgery rotation, performing a procedure that requires someone to hold the patient's testicles off to the side for the attending to do what he needed to do, the attending asked my gf to hold them off to the side, and then remarked loudly, directing his comment for the entertainment of another male physician in the room "i'll bet you've done that before".

Then there's her advisory dean, who gives her the full-body up-and-down visual inspection every time she meets with him. he ultimately has an incredible amount of control over her future in medicine, and that just makes his behavior all the more inappropriate and illegal.

i could list more, but female med students who have been through some years of training and rotations can undoubtedly affirm that these stories are commonplace events that they just "get used to".

fact is, no one should have to get used to that stuff. and what makes me so mad is that so many women just get accustomed to it and don't want to 'make waves'. sure, so they put up with it, keep their mouths shut, and let it keep happening to every woman who comes after them. every physician and physician-in-training has an obligation to the profession and to all patients everywhere to work to make the "culture" of medicine one that is healthy and considerate. when someone acts in such a repulsively unprofessional and illegal manner, and the subject of such negative behavior does NOTHING to stop it, they are just as guilty of perpetuating the problem as the jackass who is being the sexist pig.

 

[Ypo.]

fact is, no one should have to get used to that stuff. and what makes me so mad is that so many women just get accustomed to it and don't want to 'make waves'. sure, so they put up with it, keep their mouths shut, and let it keep happening to every woman who comes after them. every physician and physician-in-training has an obligation to the profession and to all patients everywhere to work to make the "culture" of medicine one that is healthy and considerate. when someone acts in such a repulsively unprofessional and illegal manner, and the subject of such negative behavior does NOTHING to stop it, they are just as guilty of perpetuating the problem as the jackass who is being the sexist pig.

You talk pretty big. Instead of blaming the victim for perpetuating the problem-why don't you give us all some useful advice about how to effectively 'stop' it with out just causing waves for our futures? And I mean REALLY stop it-because if I'm going to make a big deal about something and risk everything I've worked for, I want to make sure I have a good shot at correcting the problem. There are plenty of cases in the world that could be more easily proved. How the heck are we supposed to say "Oh, the dean just 'looks' at me sexually?" and prove it in court or change anything for female residents?
The best thing to do in that situation is to just stare at him right back-give him the once over-let him have the impression that he can be made vulnerable, too. If you are comfortable doing so, tell him directly "I feel that the way you are looking at me is inappropriate." But that's not really something you can prove easily in a court of law, so why bother? Most likely, the jerk will learn to leave you alone, but pick his next victim more carefully (ie pick someone who won't stand up to themselves), so what good will it do for those who follow you?

The case where there was verbal sexual harassment (in the operating room) is something worth complaining about-as there was a whole room of people who heard it.
I don't think any woman ever 'gets used to it' (sexual harassment) but we do learn to pick our battles carefully. I resent you blaming the victim. Its one thing if you decide to be a martyr and possibly damage your future and education-its another thing when you blame someone else for not assuming the responsibility of some jerk's actions and protect all the countless people that may follow in their place. That is like telling Hitler's mom its all her fault for not getting an abortion. For crying out loud, medical school and training is hard enough.

 

[Leukocyte]

Comparing this line, to your signature, all I can say is: HUH?

You sound like the pot discussing the kettle re: FMGs......

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh.....I am an IMG (not a FMG). 😡 .....

Seriously thought, FMG, AMG, MarsMG, VenousMG, PlutoMG.......This attending, and his sick kind, should be reminded that people (students, nurses, the janitor,.......) are not HIS slaves. There are RULES that he has to abide with. If he wants/enjoys crossing those rules, them he should be humbled......Again, THE HARD WAY. Lets see how tough he is when he is in "the can", bending over to a big dude with a mullot telling him "yeah baby, It would feel more real if you wear lipstick for me this time."

 

[Optimistic]

Most of the surgeons were nice? Where did you rotate, lol...

I dont know if it is appropiriate to mention the name of the hospital. But this is my first rotation and I was scared to death before I started. The place is just out of this world, every one is happy, the surgeons, scrub nurses , anesthesiologists everybody....almost as if prozac is in the air. I dunno I am just glad I got to work with such a great team. I am glad I got to work with such amazing physicians ....you know the kind of physicians that most of us wanted to be like before we started med school. 🙂

 

[delchrys]

yposhelly:

you hit the nail on the head when you touched on the suggestion that a woman who gets a sexual once-over from a male in a leadership role simply and directly tell him that the behavior is inappropriate. he may resent her after that, but he will also be terrified of pushing her across some invisible line that might lead to a lawsuit if he has a brain in his head at all.

the analogy you made was a poor choice, though. perhaps the appropriate analogy to the woman med student/resident who is treated in a sexually-harrasive way and does nothing to prevent similar future acts by the same man would maybe be the rape victim who doesn't report her rape...or do you think that the rape victim is not to be held in any way accountable for the [coach/teacher/priest/whoever]'s future rape victims?

hospital administration doesn't want negative publicity and netiher the physician nor the hospital wants a costly lawsuit defending even allegations that might lose. a lawsuit, or the realistic threat of legal action, certainly would have a positive effect on the long-term correction of this problem.

of course, if everyone did things the way you are acting like women in these situations should, then police would never arrest anyone, since it's so much hassle and doesn't stop crime from happening, and no one would ever take a job in medicine, since most patients are not compliant and everyone ends up dying anyways.

 

[Ypo.]

yposhelly:

you hit the nail on the head when you touched on the suggestion that a woman who gets a sexual once-over from a male in a leadership role simply and directly tell him that the behavior is inappropriate. he may resent her after that, but he will also be terrified of pushing her across some invisible line that might lead to a lawsuit if he has a brain in his head at all.

the analogy you made was a poor choice, though. perhaps the appropriate analogy to the woman med student/resident who is treated in a sexually-harrasive way and does nothing to prevent similar future acts by the same man would maybe be the rape victim who doesn't report her rape...or do you think that the rape victim is not to be held in any way accountable for the [coach/teacher/priest/whoever]'s future rape victims?

hospital administration doesn't want negative publicity and netiher the physician nor the hospital wants a costly lawsuit defending even allegations that might lose. a lawsuit, or the realistic threat of legal action, certainly would have a positive effect on the long-term correction of this problem.

of course, if everyone did things the way you are acting like women in these situations should, then police would never arrest anyone, since it's so much hassle and doesn't stop crime from happening, and no one would ever take a job in medicine, since most patients are not compliant and everyone ends up dying anyways.

😕 I didn't understand what you were trying to say in the second paragraph. Also, I thought I was using your analogy. One of my points was that I don't feel women experiencing sexual harassment or rape SHOULD act in any way except that which is best for them.

Delchrys-although I respect your opinion, and I can understand where you are coming from-I disagree with you. In other words, YES, I don't think a victim should be held accountable in any way for the actions (either present or future) of her rapist. Personally, I think it is unfair to say it is the victims responsibility to ensure the aggressor does not repeat the crime. To me that is no different than saying "their mother should have raised them better than that, so its her fault."

You have a long way to go before you understand the psychology of victims of sexual harassment. Do you realize how strong an element of denial and shock is there? Often, it takes talking to someone else before the person even realizes what they've been through. And its not an easy subject for many people to broach. Who likes to talk about moments when they felt disempowered? Perhaps this is one of the reasons you don't understand why many women fail to react the way you think they should. I personally had to go thru sexual harassment before I learned how to react 'efficiently'. The only reason I would know to give the advisor dean the eye right back is because I've been through it.
This is why I don't judge others-because I've been judged under similar circumstances, and it was one of the most painful and humiliating aspects of the whole ordeal. Its just another example of society blaming the woman (sorry to sound feminist, here).

Once I get out into the work force, you can bet your sweet @$$ nobody is going to talk to me like that more than once, but I tend to be more forceful than the average female. This attitude hasn't always helped me or been the best in the past, either. Also, if I were raped, I would step forward and prosecute for many reasons, one of them being so that it would happen again (your point, I believe). But that is just me. I would do this out of concern for others safety and anger at the agressor, but not out of any moral obligation I would feel. I know I'm not in a position to judge anyone else. If you have ever been sexually harassed, or raped, then you should know how difficult it is to step forward. The only responsibility the victim has at that point, in my opinion, is his/her mental health and personal safety. If prosecuting is what makes them feel better-good. If they don't feel like talking about sexual harassment in front of strangers-and that makes the whole experience more traumatizing for them - its their prerogative.

I also have to doubt that complaining or threatening with lawsuit is always as effective as you say. Oftentimes, it just gives the woman an unpleasant reputation, and doesn't really solve the problem. I would like to believe otherwise.

You see, you have to think about the underlying social dynamics that fuel verbal sexual harassment in the workplace (and other places). I don't want to get into this, really, but I'm sure you get my drift. Sexual harassment will be very difficult to eradicate before these underlying dynamics are dealt with-you can't just squash them. It is true that we need to always do our best to send a strong message against institutionalized sexism, because letting it exist just reinforces bad behavior and makes it stronger.

Rape is very different from sexual harassment. I do think that violent crimes should be reported, and prosecuted. But, I still don't hold victims accountable. Thats just me. Thats just how I feel.

But look, I do understand your opinion-this is just a personal stance for me. My main point was that you shouldn't just sit there and judge from your high horse without at least giving some good advice. Which I'm still waiting to hear, BTW. I liked your whole "stand up and fight" attitude-but then you left us hanging. We haven't even gone through bootcamp, yet, so how are we supposed to fight?

Whew, that was a mouthful-and probably nobody will ever read it, anyways. Did this thread even start out seriously? As far as I could tell, the OP never asked a real question, and you and I are the only ones trying to turn it into a real discussion.

 

[delchrys]

i agree with much of what you have to say, shelly. i guess i just tend to get prickly when i hear someone (or read someone, as the case may be) defend a victim to does not act to correct the situation because "the poor victim is such a victim that society can't expect anything from them and should just be happy that the victim was able to stand up and walk after such a traumatic event". that enables "victimology" to take root where you have a person who would have brushed off the event as minor instead take it to heart and see themself as a victim. empowerment is all about NOT ascribing to a victimologist view of their situation, and instead taking control and through the act of taking control shedding the cloak of the victim in favor of the garb of a free and strong person.

don't misunderstand my view or the harsh way i come across as truly blaming the victim for being a victim--i have been a victim in my life, and i have known many who have suffered much worse than i ever could imagine at the hands of others. the one key to solid recovery is to accept reality and then act to take control. i'm being nonspecific because that is the nature of the beast--what i see as making me a victim in the past is not what i'd see as doing that now; and whatever hurts me will impact someone else in a totally different way. so i don't resent the truth that some folks just have a hard time coping with certain circumstances, and i don't begrudge them that. i just think that when it become a "rule of thumb" that victims are to be handled with kid gloves that it encourages weakness instead of the much-needed strength.

am i making sense?

 

[Ypo.]

i agree with much of what you have to say, shelly. i guess i just tend to get prickly when i hear someone (or read someone, as the case may be) defend a victim to does not act to correct the situation because "the poor victim is such a victim that society can't expect anything from them and should just be happy that the victim was able to stand up and walk after such a traumatic event". that enables "victimology" to take root where you have a person who would have brushed off the event as minor instead take it to heart and see themself as a victim. empowerment is all about NOT ascribing to a victimologist view of their situation, and instead taking control and through the act of taking control shedding the cloak of the victim in favor of the garb of a free and strong person.

don't misunderstand my view or the harsh way i come across as truly blaming the victim for being a victim--i have been a victim in my life, and i have known many who have suffered much worse than i ever could imagine at the hands of others. the one key to solid recovery is to accept reality and then act to take control. i'm being nonspecific because that is the nature of the beast--what i see as making me a victim in the past is not what i'd see as doing that now; and whatever hurts me will impact someone else in a totally different way. so i don't resent the truth that some folks just have a hard time coping with certain circumstances, and i don't begrudge them that. i just think that when it become a "rule of thumb" that victims are to be handled with kid gloves that it encourages weakness instead of the much-needed strength.

am i making sense?

Yes, I hear what you are saying.
I just felt the need to step in there and advocate for the 'victims' a little bit. Its true that we shouldn't baby the victim of the crime so much that they end up being further weakened by the whole experience-they have had some degree of control taken away from them by the ordeal-they need to feel they have gained some control back. This means they need to be able to make their own decisions on how they choose to deal with their situation- You can't force a personal, political or social agenda on them at that moment-they are going thru enough as it is. However, I see nothing wrong with tactfully mentioning that they could potentially be saving someone else from going through what they did by stepping forward, but to not lay further blame at their feet - many victims feel a sense of shame-or like they may be somehow to blame.

I'm sorry if I came across harshly. What you said was intelligent, it sounds like we are pretty much in agreement-I wanted to emphasize my point because I felt it was an important one.

Between the two of us I think we have presented a pretty balanced view point. Who knows, maybe someday a rape victim will stumble across this thread and it will help. 🙄

"too much...time on my hands..."

 

[MedicinePowder]

suck it up. if it's some random doctor/staff making a-hole remarks to you, then you have a case and that doc/staff needs to get rimmed by administration, but getting tossed by the attending comes with the territory. it's a rite of passage.

 

[delchrys]

and if being forced to sleep with your attending "came with the territory"?

quite honestly, if a superior harrasses my woman and she indicates to him to stop and he continues, he'd be wise to watch himself on his walk to the parking lot, because THAT comes with the territory when a person tries to mess with another man's woman. call me primitive if you like, but violence DOES solve some problems.

it never will get to that point for me in the real world, though. my gf knows how to set boundaries for other men, and does so in a firm but not ridiculous way, and they get the point and back off. it's a learned skill, and so many women are bred to "just suck it up" that it's also a rare skill. but, if you not only approve of but actually continue to foster institutionalized harrassment and sexual discrimination, well then, i certainly don't expect you to understand why others don't see it as necessary or preferable to a mature, professional environment.

c'est la vie.

 

[Ypo.]

suck it up. if it's some random doctor/staff making a-hole remarks to you, then you have a case and that doc/staff needs to get rimmed by administration, but getting tossed by the attending comes with the territory. it's a rite of passage.

Are you talking to me? I'm not currently the victim of sexual harassment, neither am I in medical school - I'm just trying to get there and not looking forward to 'sucking it up' harassment once I do get there.

But thank you for the high-quality advice-I'll be sure to file it away carefully. 🙄 In the reject pile.

 

[MedicinePowder]

first of all, with the rites of passage i meant that attendings may make condescending remarks, which i say comes with territory, and yes you need to suck up. if you want to change the culture and institution of this revered profession, become a lawyer or do politics. it was never implied that something as atrocious as to sleep with an attending comes with the "terriotry".

 

[delchrys]

(a) "condescending remarks" and sexual harassment are two different things; the examples i gave were of the latter;
(b) i AM becoming a lawyer and will be one in a few months;
(c) politics is part of the plan, along with health care reform and health law;
(d) any inappropriate or illegal behavior is atrocious, not just the behavior you personally find unacceptable; and
(e) you'll understand when you have a daughter and she has to put up with that crap.

 

[toofache32]

Why did we ever let girls become doctors in the first place? Next thing you know they'll wanna vote...

 

[jdaasbo]

"What's wrong with being sexy?!!?"

-Nigel Tufnel

 

[Boomer]

quite honestly, if a superior harrasses my woman and she indicates to him to stop and he continues, he'd be wise to watch himself on his walk to the parking lot, because THAT comes with the territory when a person tries to mess with another man's woman. call me primitive if you like, but violence DOES solve some problems.

(d) any inappropriate or illegal behavior is atrocious, not just the behavior you personally find unacceptable

Wow....interesting words. Must be a law student in Austin, eh? Based on the primitive streak and violence threats.....just guessing that UT's the only school that fits.

p.s. Not condoning any form of harassment here.....just pointing out something I found interesting.

Something though, about two wrongs not making a right comes to mind....and your theoretical physical attack on a physician would be equally illegal as any sexual harassment.

 

[delchrys]

ahh, yes, the beauty of context. did you read the very next line after that ostensible threat of violence?

whatever, this has gone from expressing opinion to childish personal attacks, to which i admit i have been a party. but i for one will now step away and do something productive with my time.

 

[Ypo.]

ahh, yes, the beauty of context. did you read the very next line after that ostensible threat of violence?

whatever, this has gone from expressing opinion to childish personal attacks, to which i admit i have been a party. but i for one will now step away and do something productive with my time.

Amen.