SGU vs SABA & Cost

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I got into SGU and SABA for this Fall. SGU is my #1 preference, but Saba's lower cost is quite appealing. I calculated that over the 4 years, it's about 130,000$ cheaper at Saba. Is SGU's huge price tag worth it? 130,000$ difference with interest over a 10-20 year loan makes it about a 250,000$ difference... eek. Just scares me.

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You're already fighting an uphill battle at this point cost shouldn't be a worry you need to go to a school that gives you the best chance to match in 4 years and thats SGU
 
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Have you already tried to get into a US school?
Yes, I'm 30 (non-trad, taken MCAT 4 times, done with the MCAT...lol)... I've tried all routes basically and need to start something already... I'm happy with SGU or Saba, just a toss up for me really. Both have their pros/cons.
 
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I got into SGU and SABA for this Fall. SGU is my #1 preference, but Saba's lower cost is quite appealing. I calculated that over the 4 years, it's about 130,000$ cheaper at Saba. Is SGU's huge price tag worth it? 130,000$ difference with interest over a 10-20 year loan makes it about a 250,000$ difference... eek. Just scares me.

The odds of you ever becoming a doctor or at best 50/50, with these two schools. Over the next few years those numbers will get worse.

Now imagine that loan amount and you not ever being a doctor.
 
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Yes, I'm 30 (non-trad, taken MCAT 4 times, done with the MCAT...lol)... I've tried all routes basically and need to start something already... I'm happy with SGU or Saba, just a toss up for me really. Both have their pros/cons.

How many times have you tried? I myself tried 3x times (with multiple MCAT retakes > 3 times) and am finally in a DO school (at 32 years).
 
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The odds of you ever becoming a doctor or at best 50/50, with these two schools. Over the next few years those numbers will get worse.

Now imagine that loan amount and you not ever being a doctor.

How are my odds 50%? Never heard this before...Enlighten me. Caribe schools are all about the student's performance. If I kill step 1, all A's, then are my odds still 50/50? Nope...
 
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How many times have you tried? I myself tried 3x times (with multiple MCAT retakes > 3 times) and am finally in a DO school (at 32 years).

I applied 4 times... I did two masters. School's didn't look at my application because my low science gpa in undergrad pulled down my graduate gpa. I thought about DO, my uncle is a DO, I did my first masters at a DO school, and I highly respect their education system, but I'm not really into the DO philosophy and rather have an MD. That's why Carib schools are really my only option.
 
How are my odds 50%? Never heard this before...Enlighten me. Caribe schools are all about the student's performance. If I kill step 1, all A's, then are my odds still 50/50? Nope...

If you don't flunk out etc., as a fresh US-IMG (whether from a Caribbean school or not), your chances of landing a primary care residency is 70-80%.
 
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How are my odds 50%? Never heard this before...Enlighten me. Caribe schools are all about the student's performance. If I kill step 1, all A's, then are my odds still 50/50? Nope...
1) Every Carib student engages in the delusion that they will "kill Step I". You took the MCAT 4x. This is not in the history of people who "kill Step I".
2) SGU and their ilk will do everything in their power to dismiss you because they take in more students than they have rotation slots for. This is their business model. It's continuously fed by desperate, gullible marks such as yourself, alas. Based upon multiple SDNers who have been through that thresher, the attrition rate at Carib schools is around 25-50%.
3) Quoting the wise gyngyn:

"The point here isn't that there are successful Carib grads. The point is how many additional obstacles to success you face by going to a Carib school.

The pool of US applicants from the Caribbean is viewed differently by Program Directors. The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are. Some PD's are in a position where they need to, or can afford to take risks too! So, some do get interviews.

Bad grades and scores are the least of the deficits from a PD's standpoint. A strong academic showing in a Caribbean medical school does not erase this stigma. It fact it increases the perception that the reason for the choice was on the above-mentioned list!

Just about everyone from a Caribbean school has one or more of these problems and PDs know it. That's why their grads are the last choice even with a high Step 1 score.

There was a time when folks whose only flaw was being a late bloomer went Carib, but those days are gone. There are a number of spots at US schools with grade replacement for these candidates."

It's likely you'll be in the bottom half or two thirds of the class that gets dismissed before Step 1. The business plan of a Carib school depends on the majority of the class not needing to be supported in clinical rotations. They literally can't place all 250+ of the starting class at clinical sites (educational malpractice, really. If this happened at a US school, they be shut down by LCME or COCA, and sued.

The Carib (and other offshore) schools have very tenuous, very expensive, very controversial relationships with a very small number of US clinical sites. You may think you can just ask to do your clinical rotations at a site near home. Nope. You may think you don't have to worry about this stuff. Wrong.

And let's say you get through med school in the Carib and get what you need out of the various clinical rotation scenarios. Then you are in the match gamble. I don't need to say a word about this - you can find everything you need to know at nrmp.org.

You really need to talk to people who made it through Carib into residency, and hear the story from them. How many people were in their class at the start, how many are in it now? How long did it take to get a residency, and how did they handle the gap year(s) and their student loans? How many residencies did they apply to, how many interviews did they get, and were any of the programs on their match list anything like what they wanted?

A little light reading:

Million $ Mistake

Medical School at SGU
 
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I applied 4 times... I did two masters. School's didn't look at my application because my low science gpa in undergrad pulled down my graduate gpa. I thought about DO, my uncle is a DO, I did my first masters at a DO school, and I highly respect their education system, but I'm not really into the DO philosophy and rather have an MD. That's why Carib schools are really my only option.

No it isn't. There are multiple things I don't believe within the DO philosophy and even in the MD philosophy. Physicians have a large amount of autonomy and you can shape the way you practice. What do you see yourself wanting to do in the future? Ask yourself this. If you feel the physician pathway is what you want, then apply DO, get in, put your head down and plow through the stuff that doesn't fit YOUR philosophy. Its more important to be able to match than it is to be a complete fit into the DO or MD philosophy. You need to take the path of least resistance and at this point it is DO, not the Caribbean.
 
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How are my odds 50%? Never heard this before...Enlighten me. Caribe schools are all about the student's performance. If I kill step 1, all A's, then are my odds still 50/50? Nope...

I'll put into perspective what Goro is stating. The attrition at Caribbean school is ridiculous where you will lose 25-40% of your class, depending on your school. The match rate is as stated above around 70-80%. You combine those two numbers together your looking at around a 40-50% chance of succeeding.

Its easy to say you will Ace your courses and kill the step. However, you have taken 2 masters and taken the MCAT 4 times. Based on this your chances of killing your classes and your step are low. I have a similar track record to yourself. In comparison to my classmates, I am somewhat above average and have a B average currently. I am giving it everything I have and this is as far as I go. This is actually better than I thought I would do. You have to realize being in the Caribbean won't magically change your deficits and there will always be be people better than you are that will prevent you from getting an A. Its a reality I have come to terms with.

I don't mean to put you down, but I want you to get a perspective of reality. So find your deficits, increase your grades, and take the MCAT again. If you already have the grades for DO, then go DO.
 
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So much skewed information here... it' sickening. Even more so coming from people who have never even experienced the realities of what carib is and only hear rumors spread through SDN and beyond. I can't even type anything because my posts will get flagged. I am not here to praise carib schools or argue with anyone (there is nothing to argue about) but it's sometimes too much to avoid responding to blatant misinformation.

Goro: #2 "SGU will do everything in their power to dismiss you." Couldn't be further from the truth. Nothing I say will change what you believe despite me being an SGU grad... but for the sakes of others who may read this. SGU allows you to retake courses, offers mandatory services if you are struggling, has tutoring sessions available, psych services available, etc. Attrition rate is undoubtedly higher than at a US school but the reasons for this should be obvious. SGU isn't making any effort to fail you... unless you consider a bell curved exam with poor questions thrown out an effort to fail you. In my time on the island I felt that SGU, if anything, was too lenient offering a 2nd and sometimes 3rd chance to people who failed or those squeaking by with terrible grades. You have a huge class of "sub-qualified" medical students taking medical school level tests ... common sense would tell you more people will fail. SGU isn't actively doing anything to dismiss anyone. They want their students to succeed but it is a business taking advantage of a scenario... and thus it would be silly of them to predict 1000 of their 1000 students will be in clinicals. They run the stats every year and know more or less how many are likely to fail / etc.

Want to know the realities of SGU? Look at the residency match lists or speak to actual SGU grads / students for actual truth and not rumor...
 
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How many times have you tried? I myself tried 3x times (with multiple MCAT retakes > 3 times) and am finally in a DO school (at 32 years).

I went to a USMD school and many of my classmates had gone through 3 or more application cycles (one person had apparently tried 6 times). Full disclosure: I applied to med school more than once and was able to gain admission.
 
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So much skewed information here... it' sickening. Even more so coming from people who have never even experienced the realities of what carib is and only hear rumors spread through SDN and beyond. I can't even type anything because my posts will get flagged. I am not here to praise carib schools or argue with anyone (there is nothing to argue about) but it's sometimes too much to avoid responding to blatant misinformation.

Goro: #2 "SGU will do everything in their power to dismiss you." Couldn't be further from the truth. Nothing I say will change what you believe despite me being an SGU grad... but for the sakes of others who may read this. SGU allows you to retake courses, offers mandatory services if you are struggling, has tutoring sessions available, psych services available, etc. Attrition rate is undoubtedly higher than at a US school but the reasons for this should be obvious. SGU isn't making any effort to fail you... unless you consider a bell curved exam with poor questions thrown out an effort to fail you. In my time on the island I felt that SGU, if anything, was too lenient offering a 2nd and sometimes 3rd chance to people who failed or those squeaking by with terrible grades. You have a huge class of "sub-qualified" medical students taking medical school level tests ... common sense would tell you more people will fail. SGU isn't actively doing anything to dismiss anyone. They want their students to succeed but it is a business taking advantage of a scenario... and thus it would be silly of them to predict 1000 of their 1000 students will be in clinicals. They run the stats every year and know more or less how many are likely to fail / etc.

Want to know the realities of SGU? Look at the residency match lists or speak to actual SGU grads / students for actual truth and not rumor...
No, I just go into the Carbi forum and see all the tales of woe.

Tel that to your classmates who were dismissed. If US students had such an attrition rate, LCME would shut down the school.
"SGU will do everything in their power to dismiss you." Couldn't be further from the truth.
 
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No, I just go into the Carbi forum and see all the tales of woe.

Tel that to your classmates who were dismissed. If US students had such an attrition rate, LCME would shut down the school.
"SGU will do everything in their power to dismiss you." Couldn't be further from the truth.

Oh so because people fail and attrition is high means what you say is true? Hardly...

There are many tales of success too but they are met with hostility and disregard. I lived the experience amongst my 500+ classmates... I went to graduation and saw how many finished / matched / etc. Look at the match data. Common sense ... people complain when they are unhappy. People don't generally post success stories... I wouldn't be here making these posts if what you were saying is true. But it is very false.

Attrition isn't something that the school forces or creates. SGU is a business where "substandard" students are given an opportunity to enter med school. More common sense ... the kids that can't handle it fail out. They aren't deceiving anyone and the quality of education is good. That can't be said for other carib schools but that is the case for SGU.
 
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Oh so because people fail and attrition is high means what you say is true? Hardly...

There are many tales of success too but they are met with hostility and disregard. I lived the experience amongst my 500+ classmates... I went to graduation and saw how many finished / matched / etc. Look at the match data. Common sense ... people complain when they are unhappy. People don't generally post success stories... I wouldn't be here making these posts if what you were saying is true. But it is very false.

Attrition isn't something that the school forces or creates. SGU is a business where "substandard" students are given an opportunity to enter med school. More common sense ... the kids that can't handle it fail out. They aren't deceiving anyone and the quality of education is good. That can't be said for other carib schools but that is the case for SGU.
As I pointed out earlier, if SGU were in the US, it would be shut down by LCME, and then ripped off student would sue it.

Let us know when you match in a categorical position.
 
Instead of being distracted by the "sound and fury" on this thread, here's a nice article to read instead...

Second-Chance Med School

-Skip
 
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As I pointed out earlier, if SGU were in the US, it would be shut down by LCME, and then ripped off student would sue it.

Let us know when you match in a categorical position.

I already did. Im a cat PGY-1 at my #1 choice university program. I lived the experience yet you are here to tell how things are lol...
 
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You are choosing Carib over DO because of "philosophy." Bull****. That's pride talking. You'll rock step 1 after taking the MCAT 4x. That's pride too. If you'd get into a DO school and you choose an overseas MD so your lab coat has the right letters, you've massively overvalued those letters.
 
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I always thought that the Caribbean route was risky, but now that I'm program director and see the staggering number of desperate, failed applicants from the Caribbean, I'm downright scared. And the sad part is that there's nothing, absolutely nothing, we can do about it. We come in here with NRMP stats and facts, and our own experience going through hundreds of rejected applications, and people still won't listen.

If Caribbean is your absolute only choice, then fine. But if you have a shot at a US med school why in the world will you not take that shot? Giving up a DO degree for the Caribbean is a terrible decision.
 
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I think ya'll forgot the main point of this post... SGU vs SABA and Cost... I've already decided to do Carib route for many reasons and have done tons of research- it's really my only option at this point and no one can change that. Call me naive, but I've done my research and talked to tons of grads and current students at both schools, as well as former professors and deans at those schools and I know what I am getting myself into. I originally asked if SGU is worth the massive price tag, not to be harassed by negative nancies.
 
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No one forgot. We were taking one last chance to save you from yourself. Your question isn't answerable. They are both high risk investments.
 
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I think ya'll forgot the main point of this post... SGU vs SABA and Cost... I've already decided to do Carib route for many reasons and have done tons of research- it's really my only option at this point and no one can change that. Call me naive, but I've done my research and talked to tons of grads and current students at both schools, as well as former professors and deans at those schools and I know what I am getting myself into. I originally asked if SGU is worth the massive price tag, not to be harassed by negative nancies.

No one forgot. We were taking one last chance to save you from yourself. Your question isn't answerable. They are both high risk investments.

The question is answerable.

Go to SGU's and Saba's websites. Download their residency placements for the past five years. Now, think about where you want to be when you are done with medical school (geographically). Also, if you have even the remotest idea about what specialty you want to be in, see how the geography and specialty overlap with where you want to go.

Next, find a graduate in that specialty and location that you can speak with. Many will be willing to help you if you ask. "What was the ease of getting an interview?" "Did you have any problems getting 3rd and 4th year clerkships?" "How many programs did you rank?" "Did you match at your #1? #2? #3? (etc.)"

Based on this information, you will be able to do a cost analysis. Saba is a tiny island, small school, with not much else to do. This will be a plus or a minus based on the invidual. Grenada is a larger island that has more amenities.

The extra cost might be more worth it to you - or not - based on these variables. All other criteria are secondary.

Now, you can make your most-informed choice if you've truly narrowed it down to these two schools, and there are absolutely no other options (like taking a year off and re-applying in the U.S.).

Good luck.

-Skip
 
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I think ya'll forgot the main point of this post... SGU vs SABA and Cost... I've already decided to do Carib route for many reasons and have done tons of research- it's really my only option at this point and no one can change that. Call me naive, but I've done my research and talked to tons of grads and current students at both schools, as well as former professors and deans at those schools and I know what I am getting myself into. I originally asked if SGU is worth the massive price tag, not to be harassed by negative nancies.

The price tag isn't absurdly crazy. It is on the upper side of med schools but there are many US schools that are more expensive. If I recall correctly tuition / housing cost 260K all said and done. Honestly living in NYC put a bit of a hurt on my wallet but that was my decision.
 
The price tag isn't absurdly crazy. It is on the upper side of med schools but there are many US schools that are more expensive. If I recall correctly tuition / housing cost 260K all said and done. Honestly living in NYC put a bit of a hurt on my wallet but that was my decision.


For SGU, Tuition for 10 semesters and housing (not food, expenses) for the first two semesters comes out to roughly 340,000$, so just add housing for the last 2 years for clinicals and food/expenses for 4 years and that comes to a total of around 400,000$

Saba- Tuition for 10 semesters and housing (not food, expenses) for first two semesters comes out to roughly 190,000$, so add housing for the last 2 years for clinicals and food/expenses for 4 years and that comes to a total of around 270,000$.

So, about 400k (SGU) vs 270k (saba). Pretty big difference in my opinion
 
No, I am no outlier or unicorn. Just look at the hundreds of matches this year.
Compare the number of matches to those unmatched, and those who were dismissed, failed out, or left. Numbers like those would get an MD or DO school on the mainland closed by their accreditors.

And lastly, the Carib schools are under no legal obligation to tell the truth. This is one of the reasons why they're not in the US. Hence, their numbers cannot be trusted.
 
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I'll reiterate what I said before, going carib is already reducing chances at matching, if thats the case you need to give yourself every advantage you have left so pay the extra money and go to the better school (SGU)
 
Compare the number of matches to those unmatched, and those who were dismissed, failed out, or left. Numbers like those would get an MD or DO school on the mainland closed by their accreditors.

And lastly, the Carib schools are under no legal obligation to tell the truth. This is one of the reasons why they're not in the US. Hence, their numbers cannot be trusted.

This was a wonderful example of contradicting yourself, Goro.

Which is it? The numbers out there should be compared and are so valid that they should cause "accreditors" to close individual schools? Or, whatever numbers are out there can't be trusted because the schools lie?

:confused:

You can lump, or you can split. But, you can't do both at the same time.

-Skip
 
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For SGU, Tuition for 10 semesters and housing (not food, expenses) for the first two semesters comes out to roughly 340,000$, so just add housing for the last 2 years for clinicals and food/expenses for 4 years and that comes to a total of around 400,000$

Saba- Tuition for 10 semesters and housing (not food, expenses) for first two semesters comes out to roughly 190,000$, so add housing for the last 2 years for clinicals and food/expenses for 4 years and that comes to a total of around 270,000$.

So, about 400k (SGU) vs 270k (saba). Pretty big difference in my opinion

I don't know where you are getting your numbers from but they are incorrect at least for SGU. Just go to their website and they post the cost. The tuition for the 4 years is 270K. Add housing and whatnot and say 300K. So not that big a difference between the 2. And definitely not one that should alter your decision.
 
Compare the number of matches to those unmatched, and those who were dismissed, failed out, or left. Numbers like those would get an MD or DO school on the mainland closed by their accreditors.

And lastly, the Carib schools are under no legal obligation to tell the truth. This is one of the reasons why they're not in the US. Hence, their numbers cannot be trusted.

You are right, they don't say exactly how many people start / finish. There is a lot of misinformation out there compounded with people who don't have direct experience spreading more misinformation. That is why I am here giving my first hand experience to people so they can make informed decisions. I really have no clue why you are so adamant about discrediting my experience / the reality of SGU. I am not here advocating people to go to SGU. It is a last resort by all means but to say it is a scam that is screwing people over is a lie. It is a great opportunity for people who have none.

I don't understand the purpose of your accreditation comments. Whether they would or wouldn't be closed in america doesn't change any part of reality. I am from a 3rd world country and there are many steep sidewalks that I am sure would be shut down by OSHA in the USA but that doesn't change the reality of the people walking up and down them. The risk is yours whether you are capable of handling it...
 
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You are right, they don't say exactly how many people start / finish. There is a lot of misinformation out there compounded with people who don't have direct experience spreading more misinformation. That is why I am here giving my first hand experience to people so they can make informed decisions. I really have no clue why you are so adamant about discrediting my experience / the reality of SGU. I am not here advocating people to go to SGU. It is a last resort by all means but to say it is a scam that is screwing people over is a lie. It is a great opportunity for people who have none.

I don't understand the purpose of your accreditation comments. Whether they would or wouldn't be closed in america doesn't change any part of reality. I am from a 3rd world country and there are many steep sidewalks that I am sure would be shut down by OSHA in the USA but that doesn't change the reality of the people walking up and down them. The risk is yours whether you are capable of handling it...
I don't give a damn about your country. I care about desperate Americas being taken advantage of, while I'm having to pay for their Federal loans.
 
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This was a wonderful example of contradicting yourself, Goro.

Which is it? The numbers out there should be compared and are so valid that they should cause "accreditors" to close individual schools? Or, whatever numbers are out there can't be trusted because the schools lie?

:confused:

You can lump, or you can split. But, you can't do both at the same time.

-Skip
I'll leave the direct stats to the wise @gonnif, but ay Carumba! I get my numbers right here from Carib apologists, such as yourself, who have stated that their classes have started with X students. When asked what % have dropped out or been dismissed, the numbers are usually 20-40%. And, Skip, you were asked above the same question, and evaded it.

Next we have to look at how many students these schools take in, and how many rotation spots they have. It's NOT the 1:1 mandated by COCA or LCME. Hence, the nefarious business is to get rid the weakest students.

Then we get to the nitty-gritty of how many of the survivors actually make it to the match. What we see from NRMP is that it's in the 50-80% range.

And what are those matches? How many Prelimary? How many lousy residencies in high crime areas?

This is what we object to. These schools sell a dream, but it's a lie.
 
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This is why the question is unanswerable. The data at both sites is hidden and embellished. The fact that they don't publish it makes it very very likely that it is not favorable info. The info that is out there is not interpretable to the level of precision required for the question. It also assumes that today's information applies to 4-5 years from now.
 
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I don't know where you are getting your numbers from but they are incorrect at least for SGU. Just go to their website and they post the cost. The tuition for the 4 years is 270K. Add housing and whatnot and say 300K. So not that big a difference between the 2. And definitely not one that should alter your decision.

still about a 120k difference overall. With about 6-7% interest over 15 ish years, that's a good 250k difference...
 
still about a 120k difference overall. With about 6-7% interest over 15 ish years, that's a good 250k difference...

No one here will advocate Saba. It's a Canadian-heavy school and it's mostly an unknown to sdn posters. If finances are your main priority then Yes choose Saba.
 
And, Skip, you were asked above the same question, and evaded it.

I've posted plenty of responses. You either ignore them, or don't believe them, or don't want to consider them.

#disingenuous

-Skip
 
still about a 120k difference overall. With about 6-7% interest over 15 ish years, that's a good 250k difference...

This document will probably give you the most accurate difference between SGU and SABA (I know it is dated).

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf

I am no advocate for the Caribbean by any means, but if it is down between the two you should choose SGU. They match better in virtually every field.
 
I don't give a damn about your country. I care about desperate Americas being taken advantage of, while I'm having to pay for their Federal loans.

You don't give a damn about anything you don't want to believe. That much is clear.

Want to know if the matches are prelim, categorical, transitional, in bad areas? Why not just look at the match list? I guess bubble land is better than reality.

And what does high crime rates have to do with anything? Some of the best institutions are in dangerous areas in underserved communities. Not going to get the best experience working with high class concierge patients.
 
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This is why the question is unanswerable. The data at both sites is hidden and embellished. The fact that they don't publish it makes it very very likely that it is not favorable info. The info that is out there is not interpretable to the level of precision required for the question. It also assumes that today's information applies to 4-5 years from now.

Some of the data is vague but the question isn't unanswerable. There are hundreds and hundreds or graduates each year who successfully match. Just reach out to one. The match list is also there... hard evidence.
 
USMLE Step I is 3X harder than MCAT. Even COMLEX is at least twice as hard. If you cannot even get a decent score on MCAT or your undergrad classes, what make you think you will ace USMLE? Just sad to think about how you will face the truth in Caribean.
 
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Some of the data is vague but the question isn't unanswerable. There are hundreds and hundreds or graduates each year who successfully match. Just reach out to one. The match list is also there... hard evidence.

This is not scientific thinking. A success rate requires a numerator and denominator. Without that you have anecdote rather than evidence. Everyone accepts that some folks make it out of SGU and some from SABA. A ROI calculation for risking $300k vs $400k done honestly and not simply to stroke your psyche is not possible with the available data.
 
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And what are those matches? How many Prelimary? How many lousy residencies in high crime areas?
I am continually amazed by the audacity of a non-physician PhD (who teaches basic science at a DO school) repeatedly characterizing ACGME residencies, that lead to board certification and state licensure, as "lousy."

What's also ironic is that with the increase in DO enrollment, it is exactly these residency positions that "his" DO grads will be filling.

What's that old saying about intelligence being knowing how much you do not know?
 
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What's that old saying about intelligence being knowing how much you do not know?

"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it."
Maurice Switzer

-Skip
 
(I'm also reminded of Donald Rumsfield's "known unknowns" speech.)

Point is, so much of this is a "he said/she said" game. I have no agenda to serve. Really. Just the truth. And, in many instances, I wish all sides were more compelled to (1) disclose what they know and (2) be truthful about it.

As far as some of the rhetoric on this forum? Pfft... Don't be so emotionally invested in the decisions of other grown-ups or, to that end, manipulate, ignore, play-dumb, or even outright lie about the "known knowns" and other otherwise indisputable facts in support of whatever agenda you're trying to serve especially if you have zero firsthand knowledge and experience.

-Skip
 
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