Shadiness of writing two LOI's

[riverwoman1040]

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I’m currently on waitlists at three schools, two of which will still add to my file. At this point, if I was accepted to any of them, I would definitely attend. Assuming that if accepted to one school, I would remove myself from other waitlists, how shady would it be to send multiple letters of intent? There’s no way I would be turning down an acceptance to either school after writing the LOI, but it still feels a little dishonest to me. Thoughts?

 

[ganesha123]

hey..this is what I say..send a LOI to both schools, and as soon as you get one acceptance withdraw from the other ASAP!! most people would say..hey that is unfair to the schools..but I think it is only unfair if you get accepted to one school and go to another...but since you are willing to go to whichever school accepts you first I think it is okay.....

 

[bigdog8829]

f* the shadiness. i'd do it. i'm on one waitlist right now, and after may 30 i plan to send loi out as well. also to 2 schools.
as long as you'd honestly go and withdraw at the others, i see no harm done.

 

[riverwoman1040]

Thanks for the input! I do have a preferance between the two schools, but I don't think my chances of getting into the prefered school are all that great, so at this point I'd be willing to commit to the other one just so I can go somewhere.

 

[emaj1n]

I think sending a LOI to two schools is fine. After all, it's a letter of intent. If accepted, you will attend. I don't think there is anything dishonest about it.

Just be willing to accept, right away, whoever offers you first. Hanging on for a day or two could, in my book, constitute a little shadiness (in other words, "let's give the other school just a little more time").

 

[kidthor]

In my opinion, it's still ethical if you don't say to every school that they are your top choice. If you say to each school that they are a great fit for you and if they accept you you'll withdraw everywhere else and absolutely attend, then (in my opinion) you're just fine!

 

[pjl2505]

i concur, do it

 

[riverwoman1040]

I think sending a LOI to two schools is fine. After all, it's a letter of intent. If accepted, you will attend. I don't think there is anything dishonest about it.

Just be willing to accept, right away, whoever offers you first. Hanging on for a day or two could, in my book, constitute a little shadiness (in other words, "let's give the other school just a little more time").

If by some freak chance, I were to get into both schools before I had a chance to withdraw from one (not planning on trying to make this happen) nothing bad would happen, right?

 

[notdeadyet]

If by some freak chance, I were to get into both schools before I had a chance to withdraw from one (not planning on trying to make this happen) nothing bad would happen, right?

Well, you'd prove yourself to be a liar.

This is why you may send many Letters of Interest ("I'd love to go to your medical school") but only one Letter of Intent ("You are my top choice medical school"). It's not just semantics.

You can get crafty and write your Letter of Intent in such a way that you can weasel out of an acceptance, but it is unethical. You can blame the system and the medical schools and all of that, but at the end of the day, it's still deceptive.

Write compelling Letters of Interest to two of the schools, telling them why you think they're such excellent medical schools and why you'd love to go there. Then write one Letter of Intent to your favorite medical school, telling them that they are your first choice and you will immediately withdraw all open applications upon acceptance.

 

[postbacker]

Well, you'd prove yourself to be a liar.

This is why you may send many Letters of Interest ("I'd love to go to your medical school") but only one Letter of Intent ("You are my top choice medical school"). It's not just semantics.

You can get crafty and write your Letter of Intent in such a way that you can weasel out of an acceptance, but it is unethical. You can blame the system and the medical schools and all of that, but at the end of the day, it's still deceptive.

Write compelling Letters of Interest to two of the schools, telling them why you think they're such excellent medical schools and why you'd love to go there. Then write one Letter of Intent to your favorite medical school, telling them that they are your first choice and you will immediately withdraw all open applications upon acceptance.

Is this distinction you are making between the 2 types of letters the universally accepted and understood distinction with a definite difference, and do you use the term "intent" vs "interest" prominently in the letter so nobody can misconstrue? Is this written somewhere?

Or is this your own personal standard? Because I am having a hard time understanding it unless it is the rule...

 

[pennybridge]

why don't you just send both a letter saying that you will attend the first school to offer you an acceptance. It's honest, simple, to the point, and you will get to find out which school wants you more.

 

[notdeadyet]

Is this distinction you are making between the 2 types of letters the universally accepted and understood distinction with a definite difference, and do you use the term "intent" vs "interest" prominently in the letter so nobody can misconstrue? Is this written somewhere?

You can do a search on SDN and you'll find lots of discussion about the difference between the two letters. Both are written often enough that Adcoms are going to recognize them for what they are.

You can significantly gush on what we're referring to here as a Letter of Interest, which at the end of the day just says how much you'd love to come to a medical school. This is different from a Letter of Intent, which says that a school is your top choice and upon acceptance, you will withdraw from all other schools. You say that explicitly, which lets the school know that you will not be accepted by them but consider other offers.

It's totally possible to try to game the Adcoms and write a Letter of Intent that just looks like a Letter of Interest ("Psych! I never actually said you were my #1, so I can send out dozens!") but it's dishonest.

Or is this your own personal standard? Because I am having a hard time understanding it unless it is the rule...

You can do a search if it's still unclear. At the end of the day, how honest people want to be with the process is an individual decision. But when folks start trying to game the system and bend the rules on things like Letters of Intent/Interest, they make them that much less effective for the next round of applicants.

So if you think the system is flawed and hard to go through, part of the reason is that applicants before you has made it so. Don't be That Guy.

 

[notdeadyet]

why don't you just send both a letter saying that you will attend the first school to offer you an acceptance. It's honest, simple, to the point, and you will get to find out which school wants you more.

Personally, I'd mail gushy letters of interest before I'd signal to them that you'll just take any school that will have you. Medical schools want to feel like you'd really love to attend their school and be a proactive member of their entering class. I don't think letting them know that you'll get in to bed with the first caller is going to be all that effective.

 

[postbacker]

You can do a search on SDN and you'll find lots of discussion about the difference between the two letters. Both are written often enough that Adcoms are going to recognize them for what they are.

You can significantly gush on what we're referring to here as a Letter of Interest, which at the end of the day just says how much you'd love to come to a medical school. This is different from a Letter of Intent, which says that a school is your top choice and upon acceptance, you will withdraw from all other schools. You say that explicitly, which lets the school know that you will not be accepted by them but consider other offers.

It's totally possible to try to game the Adcoms and write a Letter of Intent that just looks like a Letter of Interest ("Psych! I never actually said you were my #1, so I can send out dozens!") but it's dishonest.

You can do a search if it's still unclear. At the end of the day, how honest people want to be with the process is an individual decision. But when folks start trying to game the system and bend the rules on things like Letters of Intent/Interest, they make them that much less effective for the next round of applicants.

So if you think the system is flawed and hard to go through, part of the reason is that applicants before you has made it so. Don't be That Guy.

I am at least 2 years away from crossing this bridge, and hopefully I will not face this waitlist dilemma. I play by the rules, but I just need to know what the "official and written" rules are without inventing any new ones in my own head or simply relying on the opinions of others who really have no better idea than me...similarly I will never reveal anything damaging in my background on an app that is not specifically requested, but there are plenty of folks on SDN who think that is dishonest or unethical as I learned in another thread today...

 

[tiddelypom]

just fyi I talked to the pre-med advisor at Stanford and she said LOIs were a myth that pre-meds made up, and that no med school would hold you to what you said in a letter to them. She's been the pre-med advisor for decades and helps people get in to med schools all the time, so I think I'm gonna trust her...

Writing to a school to tell them you're still really really interested is still a GREAT idea, it makes you a more appealing person to accept off of their waitlist because you're more likely to come (and then their stats will be better), but in truth a LOI means nothing more than "I really like your med school."

So by all means, send them both and don't feel shady, just be honest about your interest in the schools!
Best of luck!!

 

[postbacker]

just fyi I talked to the pre-med advisor at Stanford and she said LOIs were a myth that pre-meds made up, and that no med school would hold you to what you said in a letter to them. She's been the pre-med advisor for decades and helps people get in to med schools all the time, so I think I'm gonna trust her...

Writing to a school to tell them you're still really really interested is still a GREAT idea, it makes you a more appealing person to accept off of their waitlist because you're more likely to come (and then their stats will be better), but in truth a LOI means nothing more than "I really like your med school."

So by all means, send them both and don't feel shady, just be honest about your interest in the schools!
Best of luck!!

I was actually starting to question my own logic, especially when notdeadyet capitalized "Letter of Intent" - looked quite official in caps - but as I suspected, another urban legend bites the dust on SDN.

 

[notdeadyet]

To each their own, folks. A Letter of Intent, by definition, is one in which you tell a school that they are your #1 choice and you will withdraw any other open applications. Sending out multiple ones is a lie, plain and simple.

You can call it a white lie. You can blame it on the system. You can say that everyone does it. But at the end of the day, your word is no good.

Again, the fact that folks lie like this is the reason that I think that LOI's have so little impact. Why should an AdCom take them too seriously, since so many people lie on them? Oh, for the days when someone's word had some value. That must've been pretty sweet.

 

[notdeadyet]

And for all the newbies out there, do a hunt on Letter of Intent. You'll see there's pretty good consensus on what it is and isn't. It's easy to get confused, since folks throw around the term LOI, which is obviously confusing.

"I love your school!"- Tell to many

"Your school is my #1 choice"- Tell to one

Anything else and you've totally sold out before even graduating college. Sad days...

 

[notdeadyet]

I play by the rules, but I just need to know what the "official and written" rules are without inventing any new ones in my own head or simply relying on the opinions of others who really have no better idea than me...

The rules are easy: don't lie. Then you're in good shape.

similarly I will never reveal anything damaging in my background on an app that is not specifically requested, but there are plenty of folks on SDN who think that is dishonest or unethical as I learned in another thread today...

Hmmm... I think those folks must be a vocal minority. You want to sell yourself. The only lines to draw are ones of your word.

This is where the Interest/Intent comes from. Telling a school that you just plain liked that you loved them is okay. Telling more than one school that they are your #1 choice and you are going to go there before any other is not.

A Letter of Interest is like asking someone on a date. A Letter of Intent is asking someone to marry you.

 

[pennybridge]

Personally, I'd mail gushy letters of interest before I'd signal to them that you'll just take any school that will have you. Medical schools want to feel like you'd really love to attend their school and be a proactive member of their entering class. I don't think letting them know that you'll get in to bed with the first caller is going to be all that effective.

so it's ok be less than honest as long as it's with a lie of omission?

I think schools will understand that people need to start making plans about where to live, etc. especially if they have a family and kids (schools blah blah) and don't have the luxury of waiting around until August to know whether they need to look for an apartment in New York or Virginia or California (which they have to find and move into in one week).

The idea is that we're supposed to be mature adults, treating the whole thing like a big game isn't the mature thing to do, it's what kids with no concept of consequences do.

 

[notdeadyet]

Writing to a school to tell them you're still really really interested is still a GREAT idea, it makes you a more appealing person to accept off of their waitlist because you're more likely to come (and then their stats will be better), but in truth a LOI means nothing more than "I really like your med school."

What you are describing is a Letter of Interest, not a Letter of Intent. If anyone is still confused, do a search.

By the way, any correspondece to med schools are non-legally binding. No one is going to put you in premed jail for promising a school that you'll attend if accepted when you don't. You can also make up being a rape survivor or losing your parents or volunteering at an AIDS clinic in South Africa; no premed jail. But lying is just plain bad.

 

[pennybridge]

A Letter of Interest is like asking someone on a date. A Letter of Intent is asking someone to marry you.

so what's the secondary? foreplay?

 

[notdeadyet]

so it's ok be less than honest as long as it's with a lie of omission?

What are you talking about? I have no idea what thread postbacker is talking about.

If you are asked on an app, "Have you been convicted of a felony?" and you have been convicted of a misdemeanor, some folks say you should tell a school. I don't think you have to, as you weren't asked. I don't consider this a lie of ommission.

 

[postbacker]

And for all the newbies out there, do a hunt on Letter of Intent. You'll see there's pretty good consensus on what it is and isn't. It's easy to get confused, since folks throw around the term LOI, which is obviously confusing.

"I love your school!"- Tell to many

"Your school is my #1 choice"- Tell to one

Anything else and you've totally sold out before even graduating college. Sad days...

Pretty smug and sanctimonious stuff, pal...there is so much misinformation on SDN, I would advise "newbies" to be very careful with accepting the consensus of the SDN peanut gallery as gospel.

For instance, most SDNers seem to firmly believe that schools routinely "track" and "blacklist" applicants who turn down acceptances and reapply in subsequent year(s) when, in truth, it simply does not happen - there is no tracking system, no organized blacklists - not that it has never happened to some sad sack, but when it has it is usually the case where the applicant has unnecessarily revealed this information in his PS and thus brought it to the attention of medical schools which may follow up with questions and may also choose to give the applicant a pass.

 

[notdeadyet]

so what's the secondary? foreplay?

Given by how shocked I've been by how quickly premeds seem to knock them out or just do them by rote, I'd say that's a pretty fair analogy.

 

[notdeadyet]

Pretty smug and sanctimonious stuff, pal...

I'm sorry if it's coming across as smug and sanctimonious. I'm trying to make it as simple as possible.

LYING = BAD

If folks are talking about sending out multiple Letters of Intent, either they don't understand the term (at least as it's used here) or they don't mind lying.

there is so much misinformation on SDN, I would advise "newbies" to be very careful with accepting the consensus of the SDN peanut gallery as gospel.

I'm advising folks to use SDN search so that they understand the terms they're using here (which obviously folks don't).

Any discussion of whether it's right or wrong is kind of silly, as it's pretty basic: you either think it's okay to lie to get what you want or you don't.

As for examples of procedure, advice on SDN can be dodgy. Folks will talk about how much good a Letter of Intent/Interest will do, which varies a lot by school. But the definitions for what the words mean is important or else folks are talking about entirely different things, which has happened for much of the thread here.

 

[deleted128318]

.

 

[pennybridge]

I have no idea what's goin on

Wanna get high?

you're a towel.

 

[pennybridge]

What are you talking about?

this: OP's situation is that he/she will go to the first school that accepts her. Not sure what his/her reasoning is, but I assumed it was something legitimate like wanting to settle in before things get hectic.

just sending letters of interest to the two schools probably won't get much of a reaction because, you know, you applied, paid, and interviewed there, it's pretty much assumed you're interested in the school.

sending a "maturely worded" letter explaining that you just want some certainty and as such will matriculate at the first school to offer acceptance would be what I would recommend. for starters it's honest, secondly it's extremely pro-active and I'm under the impression that med schools like balls and in all likelihood could only help. A school isn't going to trash your waitlisted app just because of a letter that probably won't ever even get to the Dean.

 

[riverwoman1040]

LYING = BAD

If folks are talking about sending out multiple Letters of Intent, either they don't understand the term (at least as it's used here) or they don't mind lying.

I'm advising folks to use SDN search so that they understand the terms they're using here (which obviously folks don't).

Any discussion of whether it's right or wrong is kind of silly, as it's pretty basic: you either think it's okay to lie to get what you want or you don't.
quote]


Notdeadyet-

I don't think you fully understand my situation here. You seem to be very convinced that I'm lying, which is not really the case. Here is the kind of thing I was thinking of writing:




Dear med school that has decided to continue to torment me by placing me on your waitlist:

Since my interview, I have done X, Y, and Z to improve my application.

I love your program, and if accepted I will drop everything, sell my soul, and come to your school.

Sincerely,
Riverwoman



In all honesty, my first choice school rejected me months ago, so I would not tell either school that they are my first choice. However, I did really like both schools, and would be thrilled to be admitted to either. Due to other things going on in my life, and the fact that I’m not at the top of the waitlist at my favorite waitlist school, I would in fact be willing to attend any school that gave me an acceptance early in the summer. I don’t believe that the removal of the phrase “Your school is my first choice” changes this from a letter of intent to a letter of interest, but I may be wrong.

Now clearly I can’t go to both of these schools, but if I withdraw my application before being admitted, the LOI will have had no effect. I would not be turning down an acceptance, and therefore would not be acting dishonestly.

Thanks for the debate, I’m pretty sure I just talked myself into doing it 😉

Just out of curiosity, how late in the year would you be willing to switch schools to honor a LOI written earlier in the application cycle? A month before classes start? A week? A day? If your answer is that at some point you would withdraw your application, you’d be doing essentially the same thing that I am.

 

[ryandote]

I was actually starting to question my own logic, especially when notdeadyet capitalized "Letter of Intent" - looked quite official in caps - but as I suspected, another urban legend bites the dust on SDN.

Bit the dust? from a pre-med advisor?

 

[ryandote]

In all honesty, my first choice school rejected me months ago, so I would not tell either school that they are my first choice. However, I did really like both schools, and would be thrilled to be admitted to either. Due to other things going on in my life, and the fact that I'm not at the top of the waitlist at my favorite waitlist school, I would in fact be willing to attend any school that gave me an acceptance early in the summer. I don't believe that the removal of the phrase "Your school is my first choice" changes this from a letter of intent to a letter of interest, but I may be wrong..

Now clearly I can't go to both of these schools, but if I withdraw my application before being admitted, the LOI will have had no effect. I would not be turning down an acceptance, and therefore would not be acting dishonestly.

Thanks for the debate, I'm pretty sure I just talked myself into doing it 😉

Just out of curiosity, how late in the year would you be willing to switch schools to honor a LOI written earlier in the application cycle? A month before classes start? A week? A day? If your answer is that at some point you would withdraw your application, you'd be doing essentially the same thing that I am.

A typical Letter of Intent would say that you "WILL go to the school if accepted." Not that you "will go to the school if accepted ... first." At least, I feel like that has been the traditional definition of a Letter of Intent. "Intent" signifies that you intend to go there, not that a school is your first choice.

To make things simpler, lets drop the confusing title "Letter of Intent" and just call it your "Letter."

If you write in the letter: "I WILL go to your school if I am accepted." - than you ought to go that school. If you write in the letter: "I will go to your school if you accept me first." - then you should feel fine going to whichever school accepts you first.

Your conscience ought to be your guide....and your conscience led you to question whether it was ethical to tell two schools that you "WILL go there if accepted."

$.02

 

[notdeadyet]

A typical Letter of Intent would say that you "WILL go the school if accepted." Not that you "will go to the school if accepted ... first." At least, I feel like that has been the traditional definition of a Letter of Intent. "Intent" signifies that you intend to go there, not that a school is your first choice.

To make things simpler, lets drop the confusing title "Letter of Intent" and just call it your "Letter."

If you write in the letter: "I WILL go to your school if I am accepted." - than you ought to go that school. If you write in the letter: "I will go to your school if you accept me first." - then you should feel fine going to whichever school accepts you first.

Your conscience ought to be your guide....and your conscience led you to question whether it was ethical to tell two schools that you "WILL go there if accepted."

Said much more clearly (and tersely) than I've been doing. I think I've just been confusing folks. My apologies...

 

[ryandote]

Just out of curiosity, how late in the year would you be willing to switch schools to honor a LOI written earlier in the application cycle? A month before classes start? A week? A day? If your answer is that at some point you would withdraw your application, you’d be doing essentially the same thing that I am.

I may be beating a dead horse, but here goes. I wrote plenty of letters expressing extreme interest in schools and telling them that I would love to go there. However, I saved my "Letter of Intent" for a single school that I absolutely will go to if accepted (even the day before class starts).

That's why I didn't write any "Letters of Intent" back in December, before I knew how things would wash out. Bottom line: if you tell a school that you WILL go there if accepted.... you should go there if accepted.

 

[eekonomics]

I'm sorry if it's coming across as smug and sanctimonious. I'm trying to make it as simple as possible.

LYING = BAD

If folks are talking about sending out multiple Letters of Intent, either they don't understand the term (at least as it's used here) or they don't mind lying.

I'm advising folks to use SDN search so that they understand the terms they're using here (which obviously folks don't).

Any discussion of whether it's right or wrong is kind of silly, as it's pretty basic: you either think it's okay to lie to get what you want or you don't.

As for examples of procedure, advice on SDN can be dodgy. Folks will talk about how much good a Letter of Intent/Interest will do, which varies a lot by school. But the definitions for what the words mean is important or else folks are talking about entirely different things, which has happened for much of the thread here.

But what if this is your situation: you have two medical schools that are of equal standing in your mind. You would love to go to either and are waitlisted at both. There is no ethical hoodwinking going on here if you tell each school, "If accepted, I would rescind any other outstanding applications and come to your school." Nowhere in that statement is this statement binding to one school, and I think the schools are savvy enough to know that this "agreement" is contingent upon speedy acceptance.

However, you are right notdeadyet, that if an applicant tells two schools that they are each her number one choice when in fact there is not parity between them, this is fundamentally unethical. But even if two schools are tied for one, sending two letters of intent is justified because, at the end of the day, it is true that both schools are "number one".

Given that there are no true rules for playing this game - even the influence of LOIs, as you say, vary from school to school - I think anything you write to medical schools is justified as long as it is truthful. Now human beings excel in making untruthful comments seem truthful (cue in politicians) but that's up to the individual conscience to sort through.

What do you think?

 

[ADeadLois]

In all honesty, my first choice school rejected me months ago, so I would not tell either school that they are my first choice. However, I did really like both schools, and would be thrilled to be admitted to either. Due to other things going on in my life, and the fact that I’m not at the top of the waitlist at my favorite waitlist school, I would in fact be willing to attend any school that gave me an acceptance early in the summer. I don’t believe that the removal of the phrase “Your school is my first choice” changes this from a letter of intent to a letter of interest, but I may be wrong..

Now clearly I can’t go to both of these schools, but if I withdraw my application before being admitted, the LOI will have had no effect. I would not be turning down an acceptance, and therefore would not be acting dishonestly.

Thanks for the debate, I’m pretty sure I just talked myself into doing it 😉

Just out of curiosity, how late in the year would you be willing to switch schools to honor a LOI written earlier in the application cycle? A month before classes start? A week? A day? If your answer is that at some point you would withdraw your application, you’d be doing essentially the same thing that I am.

It's still dishonest. If you tell more than one school that you will attend and withdraw from other schools if offered acceptance, you are lying to one or the other.

 

[ryandote]

But what if this is your situation: you have two medical schools that are of equal standing in your mind. You would love to go to either and are waitlisted at both. There is no ethical hoodwinking going on here if you tell each school, "If accepted, I would rescind any other outstanding applications and come to your school." Nowhere in that statement is this statement binding to one school, and I think the schools are savvy enough to know that this "agreement" is contingent upon speedy acceptance.

However, you are right notdeadyet, that if an applicant tells two schools that they are each her number one choice when in fact there is not parity between them, this is fundamentally unethical. But even if two schools are tied for one, sending two letters of intent is justified because, at the end of the day, it is true that both schools are "number one".

Given that there are no true rules for playing this game - even the influence of LOIs, as you say, vary from school to school - I think anything you write to medical schools is justified as long as it is truthful. Now human beings excel in making untruthful comments seem truthful (cue in politicians) but that's up to the individual conscience to sort through.

What do you think?

Personally, I think we ought to toss the "Letter of Intent" title because we all have different ideas of what it is. If you tell a school they are your "#1" choice, that implies that you will go there if accepted. However, I think that's still a little wishy. I could see a person rationalizing a "#1" statement and still feeling okay about backing out.

However, there is no implication or mis-nuance if you say " I will go to your school if I am accepted." Period. I can't think of a way that could be mis-interpreted.

 

[riverwoman1040]

Personally, I think we ought to toss the "Letter of Intent" title because we all have different ideas of what it is. If you tell a school they are your "#1" choice, that implies that you will go there if accepted. However, I think that's still a little wishy. I could see a person rationalizing a "#1" statement and still feeling okay about backing out.

However, there is no implication or mis-nuance if you say " I will go to your school if I am accepted." Period. I can't think of a way that could be mis-interpreted.

So you are then ethically obligated to attend that school under any circumstances? Would you still feel you had to switch schools if you had accepted an offer elsewhere, and got an acceptance from your first school at 11:59 the night before classes start?

 

[postbacker]

However, there is no implication or mis-nuance if you say " I will go to your school if I am accepted." Period. I can't think of a way that could be mis-interpreted.

These letters are not legal contracts or blood oaths. After May 15, schools are desperately trying to fill their incoming classes as quickly as possible - all schools have massive waitlists - no matter what you tell them in your letter, if once offered a spot off the waitlist you refuse it, they will hang up and turn around and offer it to the next person on the waitlist so fast your head will spin without so much as giving you and your letter a second thought.

Too much is being made on this thread of the lawyerly wording of these letters. And I also think way too much faith is being placed in the influence these letters have in the process - I doubt that any of these letters matter at all.

 

[ADeadLois]

These letters are not legal contracts or blood oaths. After May 15, schools are desperately trying to fill their incoming classes as quickly as possible - all schools have massive waitlists - no matter what you tell them in your letter, if once offered a spot off the waitlist you refuse it, they will hang up and turn around and offer it to the next person on the waitlist so fast your head will spin without so much as giving you and your letter a second thought.

Too much is being made on this thread of the lawyerly wording of these letters. And I also think way too much faith is being placed in the influence these letters have in the process - I doubt that any of these letters matter at all.

You're right...but it's still dishonest.

 

[ADeadLois]

So you are then ethically obligated to attend that school under any circumstances? Would you still feel you had to switch schools if you had accepted an offer elsewhere, and got an acceptance from your first school at 11:59 the night before classes start?

You're not obligated to do anything. Go ahead and send two LOIs if you want. No one can stop you and you'll get away with it. The point that we're trying to make it is that it you are lying if you say to two different schools that you will attend and withdraw from other schools accepted. The time when you honor your intent to attend the school is irrelevant.

 

[ryandote]

So you are then ethically obligated to attend that school under any circumstances? Would you still feel you had to switch schools if you had accepted an offer elsewhere, and got an acceptance from your first school at 11:59 the night before classes start?

Yes. If I stipulated a drop-dead date in my letter, then I would feel no obligation to attend after the drop dead date. In my personal situation, my top choice school starts 2 weeks before my current school. I won't have to make that leap, but that was planned into my situation. If they started the same day, I probably would have stipulated a drop-dead date.

As it is, I will probably have moved to my current school by the start-date of my top choice school, and hopefully my wife will have found a job. However, if I am called the day that school starts, I will get on a plane to my top choice. (and my poor wife will have to quit her job.) That's what I mean when I wrote "if I am accepted to your school, I will go."

 

[ryandote]

These letters are not legal contracts or blood oaths. After May 15, schools are desperately trying to fill their incoming classes as quickly as possible - all schools have massive waitlists - no matter what you tell them in your letter, if once offered a spot off the waitlist you refuse it, they will hang up and turn around and offer it to the next person on the waitlist so fast your head will spin without so much as giving you and your letter a second thought.

Too much is being made on this thread of the lawyerly wording of these letters. And I also think way too much faith is being placed in the influence these letters have in the process - I doubt that any of these letters matter at all.

It's also not a legal contract when I state in my application that I have 4 publications in Cell. But I don't have 4 publications in Cell, and so I didn't say that.

As for too much faith being placed in the influence of these letters, I completely agree. That's why it's not worth being dishonest or unethical to me.

I would just like to clarify that I am making these judgements based on a set of personal morals. Then again, I'm a Mormon, so my morals may be questionable. Seriously, though, this is all in the spirit of exchanging ideas. 🙂

 

[riverwoman1040]

It's also not a legal contract when I state in my application that I have 4 publications in Cell. But I don't have 4 publications in Cell, and so I didn't say that.

As for too much faith being placed in the influence of these letters, I completely agree. That's why it's not worth being dishonest or unethical to me.

I would just like to clarify that I am making these judgements based on a set of personal morals. Then again, I'm a Mormon, so my morals may be questionable. Seriously, though, this is all in the spirit of exchanging ideas. 🙂

Just to clarify- I don't think that these letters are going to make or break me in this process. I know that they may or may not help, but at this point I’m willing to take any help that I can (ethically) get.

Also, no one disagrees with the fact that lying is wrong. That is the precise reason that I'm trying to make sure I won't be lying.

Just to argue semantics:

I would say that I will attend if I am accepted.
I will, in fact attend the school that accepts me.
Since I will be withdrawing from the other school, I will not be accepted.
Therefore, my original statement of “I will attend if accepted,” is still true.

Sorry, I’m amused at this point. I had no idea that there would be so many responses to this.

 

[ryandote]

Just to clarify- I don't think that these letters are going to make or break me in this process. I know that they may or may not help, but at this point I'm willing to take any help that I can (ethically) get.

Also, no one disagrees with the fact that lying is wrong. That is the precise reason that I'm trying to make sure I won't be lying.

Just to argue semantics:

I would say that I will attend if I am accepted.
I will, in fact attend the school that accepts me.
Since I will be withdrawing from the other school, I will not be accepted.
Therefore, my original statement of "I will attend if accepted," is still true.

Sorry, I'm amused at this point. I had no idea that there would be so many responses to this.

What if they accept you the same day, or before you get a chance to withdraw? What if they decide to accept you based on what you write (i.e., "I will come to your school if accepted") and then you withdraw before they make the weekly call???

What if you were on an adcom, and you found out that an applicant sent the letter you describe to TWO schools? (I'm not asking whether you would accept that person, but rather if would you feel lied to?)

Do what you will, but this is a fairly interesting study on comparative ethics. I do give you a few bonus "honesty points" if you really plan on withdrawing from the other as soon as you get an acceptance. (Instead of just spraying intent letters to up your appeal, and then deciding as the acceptances roll in.) However, these bonus "honesty points" do not upgrade you to "fully honest" status.

 

[postbacker]

It's also not a legal contract when I state in my application that I have 4 publications in Cell. But I don't have 4 publications in Cell, and so I didn't say that.

Not even close to comparable to the issue on letters of intent. What you put on the application is subject to factual verification - to lie or misrepresent yourself on the application is clearly subject to the harshest sanctions. Letters of interest/intent are not part of the application. For all intents and purpose, the application is akin to a "legal contract." These letters are not.

If someone is inclined to write any of these "letters" to express undying interest in attending a school, I say go for it. These are not contracts or blood oaths or irreversible pledges, and the schools understand it (many schools discourage them to begin with). If you do write one, it would be foolish to put "drop dead dates" and other "if/then" conditional contortions in them. And it would be foolish to write a lawyerly, weasel-worded conditional letter of interest that does anything to dilute one's strongest possible expression of interest - some of you folks are getting all tied into knots over these letters for purported ethical reasons that exist in your heads alone - nothing wrong with that, but don't try to impose your confused ethics on others.

Furthermore, you are NOT under any obligation to attend any school just because you sent them a strongly and unambiguously worded letter of intent - for practical purposes, consider financial aid - say in the OPs case she sent identical letters to these 2 schools, and they both offered her a spot, however one with substantially better finaid? Do you think she would be obligated to accept the first offer over the transom?

Now my hypothetical holds true notwithstanding official rules against holding a waitlist offer (and accepting that offer) along with continuing to hold any other waitlist positions after May 15 - I am not an expert on the official rules of waitlisting - I assume that once offered a waitlist spot, there is some reasonable amount of time that one has to reply (is it immediately? is it orally enforceable, or is it in writing? is it 24 hours? is it a week? is there an AMCAS rule governing all schools, or are schools free to make up their own waitlist rules? anybody know?), and it would seem reasonable that upon the applicant's acceptance of a waitlist offer that the applicant must concurrently withdraw all other waitlist positions, but does anybody know for sure? Can someone point to actual AMCAS rules? This should not be a matter of SDN speculation - it should be spelled out in the rules.

But the central question of the thread is on the ethics of the wording in the letters. If as some people imply on this thread these letters have "gotten out of control" there would be immediate changes made in AMCAS that would clearly define "intent" and "interest" and would dictate usage and sanctions for the conduct of applicants. Otherwise, it looks like Thunderdome to me...I am not advocating "anything goes," so let your conscience be your guide, but don't get all tied up into knots over this...

 

[ExistentialistPhilosopher]

To the OP,

In my humble opinion, I don't think anything bad will happen to you if you do this (go to jail, get sued, have your name on some sort of worldwide blacklist), especially if you do promptly withdraw from the other school once you gain an acceptance. After all, your letters will say you will attend IF accepted. If you are accepted off the waitlist by one school, while the other school is still deliberating, I think you can withdraw from the deliberating school (that has NOT accepted you yet) and still have held true to the terms of your letter. It is a little shady and complicated, but I don't necessarily think you'd be lying by doing so.

However, I think to be completely honest, you shouldn't say to both schools that they're your top choice. Clearly only one of them is. I do also think that if you gain an acceptance from the school that's NOT your top choice, a part of you will be tempted to wait on the top choice school, just in case. Do you really want to close out that option by writing two LOIs?

Otherwise, if you're sure you will attend either school if accepted, feel free to go ahead and try this, as long as you hold true to it. Although I doubt most schools will really double-check or care if you choose not to attend even after an LOI and subsequent acceptance, you'll have lost personal integrity if you don't follow through on what you wrote. One of the only legitimate reasons I can think of for breaking a letter of intent is if you are offered a very poor financial aid package (e.g., all loans, for example), even if you and your family situation demonstrates significant need. Granted, if you have no other acceptances, you may have no other choice, but otherwise, I would say that is one of the only circumstances under which breaking an letter of intent is justifiable in terms of personal integrity. I'm sure there are other legitimate reasons, too (family situation abruptly changed, student must defer for an important reason, etc). Unexpected things do strike sometimes and throw our lives off-course.

You may also change your mind last-minute about which school you'd rather attend and end up breaking an LOI that way. After all, we're all human and make mistakes. But if you know yourself well, you can try to avoid that by reflecting carefully about what you really want. Anyways, whatever you decide to do, good luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

In my humble opinion, I don't think anything bad will happen to you if you do this (go to jail, get sued, have your name on some sort of worldwide blacklist), especially if you do promptly withdraw from the other school once you gain an acceptance. After all, your letters will say you will attend IF accepted. If you are accepted off the waitlist by one school, while the other school is still deliberating, I think you can withdraw from the deliberating school (that has NOT accepted you yet) and still have held true to the terms of your letter. It is a little shady and complicated, but I don't necessarily think you'd be lying by doing so.

If multiple schools to which you write the letter choose to accept you based on your word, you have committed a lie. Such a letter technically has all the elements of a contract and you will have breached the contract when you reject their offer even though you indicated you would drop all others and go. Of course no school will ever legally enforce such a contract (because they have no damages -- they can just go to the next person on the waitlist, so it's simply not worth their time) but enforcement isn't really the issue. People don't measure their acts based on repercussions, they measure them based on doing right versus wrong. You want to go through the process with your integrity intact.

In law people use "letters of intent" all the time and frequently they are binding precursors to transactions. So that is not a term made up by SDN. Which is why many people on here are suggesting that if you want to play by the rules, you should write more fluffy, less definitive "letters of interest", which don't go as far as tell a school that if they accept you you will withdraw all other offers and/or attend, but basically again emphasize how much you love the school and hope to be accepted, but don't take that next binding step. There's a world of difference between saying I love your school versus I will absolutely attend. You only want to say the latter statement to one place, if you mean it. Do adcoms really care which you send? Probably not -- they want to only accept people who show interest. But you certainly can lose your integrity, maybe develop a bad reputation with certain people by lying. As a character said in the movie Scarface, in this world all you really have is your word and your balls, and you don't break them for anything.

 

[ExistentialistPhilosopher]

If multiple schools to which you write the letter choose to accept you based on your word, you have committed a lie. QUOTE]

I'm not disagreeing with you, Law2Doc, but the OP is not suggesting that s/he would send two LOIs to entertain multiple offers of acceptance. If that's the case, then the OP would be going back on his/her word, and that is truly a loss of personal integrity. However, the OP is stating that s/he would follow through on withdrawing from the other schools upon receiving an acceptance from one of the schools. I'm not saying that this isn't shady or risky, but there's no lying here. By sending in an LOI to a school stating s/he would attend if accepted, the OP is not forfeiting his/her right to withdraw her application PRIOR to the school granting that acceptance.

However, I would agree in stating that simply writing a letter of intent to one school or writing two letters of interest are the better options. After all, what if one day the OP checks his/her email, only to find that both schools have offered acceptance within hours of each other, before the OP has had a chance to formally withdraw from the other? Then the OP is forced into a position of going back on his/her word. Hence, the risk. So to the OP, I'd say, think long and hard about the decision. It's not as though there will be consequences to going back on your word (there most likely won't), but you'll want to be able to see yourself as someone who can hold true to your promises to the best of your ability. Good luck!

 

[ryandote]

Not even close to comparable to the issue on letters of intent. What you put on the application is subject to factual verification - to lie or misrepresent yourself on the application is clearly subject to the harshest sanctions. Letters of interest/intent are not part of the application. For all intents and purpose, the application is akin to a "legal contract." These letters are not.

If someone is inclined to write any of these "letters" to express undying interest in attending a school, I say go for it. These are not contracts or blood oaths or irreversible pledges, and the schools understand it (many schools discourage them to begin with). If you do write one, it would be foolish to put "drop dead dates" and other "if/then" conditional contortions in them. And it would be foolish to write a lawyerly, weasel-worded conditional letter of interest that does anything to dilute one's strongest possible expression of interest - some of you folks are getting all tied into knots over these letters for purported ethical reasons that exist in your heads alone - nothing wrong with that, but don't try to impose your confused ethics on others.

Furthermore, you are NOT under any obligation to attend any school just because you sent them a strongly and unambiguously worded letter of intent - for practical purposes, consider financial aid - say in the OPs case she sent identical letters to these 2 schools, and they both offered her a spot, however one with substantially better finaid? Do you think she would be obligated to accept the first offer over the transom?

Now my hypothetical holds true notwithstanding official rules against holding a waitlist offer (and accepting that offer) along with continuing to hold any other waitlist positions after May 15 - I am not an expert on the official rules of waitlisting - I assume that once offered a waitlist spot, there is some reasonable amount of time that one has to reply (is it immediately? is it orally enforceable, or is it in writing? is it 24 hours? is it a week? is there an AMCAS rule governing all schools, or are schools free to make up their own waitlist rules? anybody know?), and it would seem reasonable that upon the applicant's acceptance of a waitlist offer that the applicant must concurrently withdraw all other waitlist positions, but does anybody know for sure? Can someone point to actual AMCAS rules? This should not be a matter of SDN speculation - it should be spelled out in the rules.

But the central question of the thread is on the ethics of the wording in the letters. If as some people imply on this thread these letters have "gotten out of control" there would be immediate changes made in AMCAS that would clearly define "intent" and "interest" and would dictate usage and sanctions for the conduct of applicants. Otherwise, it looks like Thunderdome to me...I am not advocating "anything goes," so let your conscience be your guide, but don't get all tied up into knots over this...

Have we beat this one to death yet? Just in case we haven't....

Letters of intent/interest are ABSOLUTELY part of your application. They go in your file, and the adcom theoretically uses them to make decisions about you. Incidentally, I don't think that the ethics that have been discussed in this thread are in any way confused.

Nobody is encouraging "lawerly, weasely contortions." They are, in fact, encouraging the complete truth. Of course there aren't any AMCAS guidelines for these "letters." Once again, nobody is talking about "playing by the rules" or "consequences of getting caught if you don't follow non-existent guidelines." They are, in fact, talking about the right thing to do, namely being honest. I don't want to turn this into a subjective/objective morality discussion, but the principle of honesty in dealings with your fellows should be fairly universal.

Let me be clear: I am not telling the OP that her current plan would break any rules or obligate her in any way. I'm telling her it may not be honest. (If you'll note, that was the OP's original question...there are obviously no AMCAS rules about these "letters" or I could just link to a specific spot in the rules.