Shadowing doctors "against HIPPA"?

[GregoryMD]

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So I had spoken with a physician today who was willing to allow me to shadow him, but when I tried to schedule it with the office manager, she was immediately standoffish, as if I was a terrible person for even bringing up shadowing if I wasn't already a medical student.

She kept telling me because of insurance reasons, HIPPA, or something, unless you're a student at a medical school you're not allowed to shadow. I tried to politely inform her I was aware of HIPPA, but that students are required to shadow before even gaining acceptance into medical school. The physician had even okayed it, and she just kept treating it as if I was lying to her and making up excuses as to why she couldn't ask the physician (When I had just spoken to him in the same office).

Eventually she agreed to call whatever organization their office was affiliated with, and she called me back later in the day. She had to make it a point that "I was right, you can't shadow". I was kind of flabbergasted, I didn't think I had done anything to warrant her rudeness.

Has anyone encountered such difficulty? I understand now that it was because of the company that runs some of the private practices over here, the ACP of Tucson to be precise. Are these kinds of rules common? How is one supposed to find organizations that are okay with shadowing? I've shadowed other physicians before, I used to be a certified EMT, and the physician even made a point to pick times where there wouldn't be the types of physicals patients may be uncomfortable with. It just seems kind of silly in a field where teaching is required.

 

[NYEMMED]

So I had spoken with a physician today who was willing to allow me to shadow him, but when I tried to schedule it with the office manager, she was immediately standoffish, as if I was a terrible person for even bringing up shadowing if I wasn't already a medical student.

She kept telling me because of insurance reasons, HIPPA, or something, unless you're a student at a medical school you're not allowed to shadow. I tried to politely inform her I was aware of HIPPA, but that students are required to shadow before even gaining acceptance into medical school. The physician had even okayed it, and she just kept treating it as if I was lying to her and making up excuses as to why she couldn't ask the physician (When I had just spoken to him in the same office).

Eventually she agreed to call whatever organization their office was affiliated with, and she called me back later in the day. She had to make it a point that "She was right, you can't shadow". I was kind of flabbergasted, I didn't think I had done anything to warrant her rudeness.

Has anyone encountered such difficulty? I understand now that it was because of the company that runs some of the private practices over here, the ACP of Tucson to be precise. Are these kinds of rules common? How is one supposed to find organizations that are okay with shadowing? I've shadowed other physicians before, I used to be a certified EMT, and the physician even made a point to pick times where there wouldn't be the types of physicals patients may be uncomfortable with. It just seems kind of silly in a field where teaching is required.

To be honest I have never heard of this... I have had to deal with rude office clerks as a medical student and Intern though (that never changes). I have shadowed before medical school, and currently had a pre-med shadowing in an office I rotated through. The patients had to be asked if it was ok, however that would then include you in their HIPPA agreement, not exclude you. If the patient themselves agreed to have you in the room as a pre-med, then all should be good to go.

 

[GregoryMD]

To be honest I have never heard of this... I have had to deal with rude office clerks as a medical student and Intern though (that never changes). I have shadowed before medical school, and currently had a pre-med shadowing in an office I rotated through. The patients had to be asked if it was ok, however that would then include you in their HIPPA agreement, not exclude you. If the patient themselves agreed to have you in the room as a pre-med, then all should be good to go.

Yeah that's what I thought. It was similar when I volunteered in an ER a few years back as well. I suppose it is the Arizona Community Physician's group that has this "insurance liability", however, the manner in which the office clerk gave me this information (i.e.: Neener, neener, I was right and you can't do anything about it scum) I'm inclined to call the ACP and explain my situation to them. If I provide them with some of my medical background, the physician's hours in which he agreed that there would be a mitigation of privacy issues, and my understanding of HIPPA, they might make an exception.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

So I had spoken with a physician today who was willing to allow me to shadow him, but when I tried to schedule it with the office manager, she was immediately standoffish, as if I was a terrible person for even bringing up shadowing if I wasn't already a medical student.

She kept telling me because of insurance reasons, HIPPA, or something, unless you're a student at a medical school you're not allowed to shadow. I tried to politely inform her I was aware of HIPPA, but that students are required to shadow before even gaining acceptance into medical school. The physician had even okayed it, and she just kept treating it as if I was lying to her and making up excuses as to why she couldn't ask the physician (When I had just spoken to him in the same office).

Eventually she agreed to call whatever organization their office was affiliated with, and she called me back later in the day. She had to make it a point that "She was right, you can't shadow". I was kind of flabbergasted, I didn't think I had done anything to warrant her rudeness.

Has anyone encountered such difficulty? I understand now that it was because of the company that runs some of the private practices over here, the ACP of Tucson to be precise. Are these kinds of rules common? How is one supposed to find organizations that are okay with shadowing? I've shadowed other physicians before, I used to be a certified EMT, and the physician even made a point to pick times where there wouldn't be the types of physicals patients may be uncomfortable with. It just seems kind of silly in a field where teaching is required.

This has happened with me before. Sometimes the physician may not be aware of the rules on outsiders shadowing through his organization. However, she didn't have to be rude with you about it.

 

[NYEMMED]

Yeah that's what I thought. It was similar when I volunteered in an ER a few years back as well. I suppose it is the Arizona Community Physician's group that has this "insurance liability", however, the manner in which the office clerk gave me this information (i.e.: Neener, neener, I was right and you can't do anything about it scum) I'm inclined to call the ACP and explain my situation to them. If I provide them with some of my medical background, the physician's hours in which he agreed that there would be a mitigation of privacy issues, and my understanding of HIPPA, they might make an exception.

The only thing you get by not trying is the answer staying a NO. Give it a shot. If it dosent work out, find another doctor. (It might be that companies' policy)

 

[TexasSurgeon]

So I had spoken with a physician today who was willing to allow me to shadow him, but when I tried to schedule it with the office manager, she was immediately standoffish, as if I was a terrible person for even bringing up shadowing if I wasn't already a medical student.

She kept telling me because of insurance reasons, HIPPA, or something, unless you're a student at a medical school you're not allowed to shadow. I tried to politely inform her I was aware of HIPPA, but that students are required to shadow before even gaining acceptance into medical school. The physician had even okayed it, and she just kept treating it as if I was lying to her and making up excuses as to why she couldn't ask the physician (When I had just spoken to him in the same office).

Eventually she agreed to call whatever organization their office was affiliated with, and she called me back later in the day. She had to make it a point that "She was right, you can't shadow". I was kind of flabbergasted, I didn't think I had done anything to warrant her rudeness.

Has anyone encountered such difficulty? I understand now that it was because of the company that runs some of the private practices over here, the ACP of Tucson to be precise. Are these kinds of rules common? How is one supposed to find organizations that are okay with shadowing? I've shadowed other physicians before, I used to be a certified EMT, and the physician even made a point to pick times where there wouldn't be the types of physicals patients may be uncomfortable with. It just seems kind of silly in a field where teaching is required.

You can try doctors that aren't affiliated with organizations like this (private practice) to see if you can shadow them.

 

[Sephy]

Sounds like something fishy is going on here. I shadowed tons of physicians and they had no problem with it. Sounds like the administrative people don't know what the heck they are talking about.

 

[circulus vitios]

I shadowed at a hospital and I had to sit through a 10 minute lecture/quiz on HIPPA.

 

[TXKnight]

The office manager is just being overly cautious, and possibly even a B****. If the patient gives the doctor permission for you to be present (and you don't disclose pt info to anyone), I believe no HIPPA violation has occurred. Even then, exceptions exist in the code

 

[GUH]

Lame-ass HIPAA excuses based on organizational policies were the main reason I was unable to shadow a DO.

It happens. Find someone else and move on

 

[scarecrow90]

Strange. I've never encountered this problem. I shadowed a podiatrist for years and this never came up. Whenever I observed surgery, however, I always had to sign a piece of paper listing me as an observer and I had to get the patient's signature, too. It was great because I got to introduce myself to the patients and meet with them for a little bit.

As others have mentioned, I feel as if this lady is either just being overly cautious or a complete wench. Try to find a different physician or have the physician talk directly to the office administrator would be my advise. Then again, pursuing another doc might be the most wise option since you don't want to inflame any tensions in that office/ask the doc for too much.

 

[kami333]

I've ran into the same issue at one hospital, my conversation with the clinical experience coordinator was much nicer than yours but the outcome was the same. He told me I couldn't due to liability reasons, he said they did allow premeds up until a few years ago but now only allow those currently enrolled in a clinical program (med, nursing or some other allied health program). Ended up finding something else.

 

[GregoryMD]

Thanks for the responses. I've already started the search for another as I don't want to ask the doctor for too much. I do know of an anesthesiologist who has a bit more autonomy in his practice, just waiting on a call back. It's just a shame because I'm moving in a little over a month and I wanted to be a bit more productive in the mean time. The ACP is closed until Monday, so I can't even fact check the office manager's claim either.

 

[scarecrow90]

Thanks for the responses. I've already started the search for another as I don't want to ask the doctor for too much. I do know of an anesthesiologist who has a bit more autonomy in his practice, just waiting on a call back. It's just a shame because I'm moving in a little over a month and I wanted to be a bit more productive in the mean time. The ACP is closed until Monday, so I can't even fact check the office manager's claim either.

May I ask why, if you're moving in a month, you are trying to find a doc to shadow now? Why don't you start looking into physicians wherever it is you'll be after the move? 😉

 

[TexasSurgeon]

May I ask why, if you're moving in a month, you are trying to find a doc to shadow now? Why don't you start looking into physicians wherever it is you'll be after the move? 😉

Cause he wants to be productive!

 

[chiddler]

Had similar problem. Asked for advice, didn't find anything useful.

Just find a private organization and ask the doc there. Or maybe find somewhere with a volunteer program. Volunteer there, THEN ask for shadowing privileges?

Either way, I don't think hospitals will be negotiating with premeds.

 

[GregoryMD]

May I ask why, if you're moving in a month, you are trying to find a doc to shadow now? Why don't you start looking into physicians wherever it is you'll be after the move? 😉

I'm looking into new ones now for after the move. This doc was one I had been trying to arrange the past few weeks. Prior to finishing school, I wasn't able to do it on the days they would've allowed me since I was in class at the time. Though after following up, this office manager gave me difficulty. A month is too soon to find a new one here (The anesthesiologist I mentioned earlier was also something in sort of a limbo right now).

I realize even if I was able to shadow this doc right now, I'd only get around ~20 some hours with him, but I've yet to find a DO to shadow. Most of my shadowing hours are with MDs, and since my decision to go DO, I've just kept running into these small offices that are anti-students =/

 

[primadonna22274]

A lot of places are very paranoid about having HIPAA violations and won't allow shadowing. I had plenty of pre-PAs ask if they could shadow me and my administrator would not allow it, but when I worked in an ER many years later (in another state) it was cool after the shadowee went through the proper channels with HR.
keep asking, you will find someone.

 

[survivordo]

Never had this issue but every organization/office certainly has the right to make their own rules as they see fit. It's a pain (and sounds like the office manager was being annoying, get used to them going on their little power trips) but just move on and try to find something else.

Survivor DO

 

[EnergyDrink]

I think that as long as the physician asks the patient, HIPAA doesn't really come into play.

 

[StudyShy]

I got this at the hospital I work at. The nursing manager went on about HIPPA, and I have the same HIPPA training that she does. Kind of funny. She just didn't want to deal with me or understand what I was trying to do.

 

[Mehd School]

As long as the patient gives verbal consent, no HIPAA violation will occur. With that said, there are obviously situations that you have no business being present for ... ie a pelvic or prostate exam.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

As long as the patient gives verbal consent, no HIPAA violation will occur. With that said, there are obviously situations that you have no business being present for ... ie a pelvic or prostate exam.

Not a really convincing argument when telling the med school that the doctor is affiliated with that you promise to follow HIPAA. Some schools are just anal like that

 

[milosavljevic]

Does anyone know the reasoning behind why pre-medical students wanting to shadow physicians is any different than nursing school students shadowing nurses on their rotations?

I have faced a lot of the same problems the OP has faced in terms of being told about how I would be violating HIPAA if I tried to shadow the physician. It seems like neither nursing students nor pre-med students have official certification that would allow them to work in a patient setting, so why do I always get told that pre-med students are violating HIPAA, but then I see all these nursing students observing patients? 😕

 

[TriagePreMed]

typical office clerk trying to exert the only little bit of power they have in their pathetic lives. Next time don't bother talking to them too much if they get complicated. Just talk to the physician directly.

 

[Chibix]

I shadowed a physician recently. I got a list of all the D.O. alumini from an osteopathic school, that were still located in arizona. I just email all the ones in my area and a few answered back. (Maybe you can try that?) One doctor had me speak to the office manager to schedule a time to shadow him. She said I had to go to a specific location because shadowing had to be done "off the books" unless you're in med school. (I don't get this, are med school students still shadowing doctors? A lot of them mention this.). Another response for shadowing in the OR simply sent me a confidentiality agreement that I had to sign and send back, then she emailed me the time to show up. Easy peasy. 🙂 The ones that mentioned the medical student thing or HIPPA did seem like they didn't want to be bothered.

Sent from my C5155 using SDN Mobile

 

[scarecrow90]

Cause he wants to be productive!

Ooh... yeah, I am not that productive lol. XD

I'm looking into new ones now for after the move. This doc was one I had been trying to arrange the past few weeks. Prior to finishing school, I wasn't able to do it on the days they would've allowed me since I was in class at the time. Though after following up, this office manager gave me difficulty. A month is too soon to find a new one here (The anesthesiologist I mentioned earlier was also something in sort of a limbo right now).

I realize even if I was able to shadow this doc right now, I'd only get around ~20 some hours with him, but I've yet to find a DO to shadow. Most of my shadowing hours are with MDs, and since my decision to go DO, I've just kept running into these small offices that are anti-students =/

(This may be a stupid question on my part, but...) Are you using the American Osteopathic Association's website to find DOs? That may help if you aren't. Here's the link just in case:

http://www.osteopathic.org/osteopathic-health/find-a-do/Pages/default.aspx

Don't worry, though! You'll find a DO who will help you out! 🙂

 

[Instatewaiter]

So I had spoken with a physician today who was willing to allow me to shadow him, but when I tried to schedule it with the office manager, she was immediately standoffish, as if I was a terrible person for even bringing up shadowing if I wasn't already a medical student.

She kept telling me because of insurance reasons, HIPPA, or something, unless you're a student at a medical school you're not allowed to shadow. I tried to politely inform her I was aware of HIPPA, but that students are required to shadow before even gaining acceptance into medical school. The physician had even okayed it, and she just kept treating it as if I was lying to her and making up excuses as to why she couldn't ask the physician (When I had just spoken to him in the same office).

Eventually she agreed to call whatever organization their office was affiliated with, and she called me back later in the day. She had to make it a point that "I was right, you can't shadow". I was kind of flabbergasted, I didn't think I had done anything to warrant her rudeness.

Has anyone encountered such difficulty? I understand now that it was because of the company that runs some of the private practices over here, the ACP of Tucson to be precise. Are these kinds of rules common? How is one supposed to find organizations that are okay with shadowing? I've shadowed other physicians before, I used to be a certified EMT, and the physician even made a point to pick times where there wouldn't be the types of physicals patients may be uncomfortable with. It just seems kind of silly in a field where teaching is required.

As a shadower you become part of the healthcare team. Hipaa applies but doesn't preclude you from doing that.

Talk to the attending again. Let him/her know and she will probably get around it. There is nothing magical about what happens to you the day you step foot in medical school in terms of Hipaa.

Ps it's HIPAA not HIPPA.

Also hipaa is a joke. We talk to patients in semiprivate rooms where there is nothing between them and the other patient in the room (and their entire extended family) except a curtain all the time. It is just for the lawyers and the pencil pushers who think there is anything resembling privacy in medicine.

 

[dsoz]

As long as the patient gives verbal consent, no HIPAA violation will occur. With that said, there are obviously situations that you have no business being present for ... ie a pelvic or prostate exam.

The very first patient on the very first day of my shadowing experience had an elevated PSA. The physician told the guy to turn around, drop trou, and put elbows on the table. The physician then proceeded to do the prostate exam... Starting off, he said to me "hey dsoz, come over here and look at these hemorrhoids, aren't they gorgeous?" I was like "ummm, yah..."

The next time I went to shadow, the first patient was in to get some warts removed from his junk. The physician asked me to assist. Hold it this way, turn it that way, lift it up so I can get that one underneath. Can you say awkward. That was the first time I held someone else's family jewels.

I went home and told my wife. She said, "You better be careful, the next time you may encounter a pelvic exam..."

The next time I went to shadow (a different physician), he told me "this first patient is a pelvic exam, why don't you just stay out in the hall."

To the OP: Good luck in your quest to shadow. It really helped me to decide to leave a stable career and take this leap of faith into medicine.

dsoz

 

[Nsn7]

I shadowed a physician recently. I got a list of all the D.O. alumini from an osteopathic school, that were still located in arizona. I just email all the ones in my area and a few answered back. (Maybe you can try that?) One doctor had me speak to the office manager to schedule a time to shadow him. She said I had to go to a specific location because shadowing had to be done "off the books" unless you're in med school. (I don't get this, are med school students still shadowing doctors? A lot of them mention this.). Another response for shadowing in the OR simply sent me a confidentiality agreement that I had to sign and send back, then she emailed me the time to show up. Easy peasy. 🙂 The ones that mentioned the medical student thing or HIPPA did seem like they didn't want to be bothered.

Sent from my C5155 using SDN Mobile

Hello, I was just wondering what school you got the D.O alumi list from. I'm also from Arizona and so far I havent had any luck with finding someone to shadow.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Its a Major problem at my local hospital. After they heard I was shadowing a surgeon, they quickly made a policy stating that no one was allowed to shadow at the hospital due to liability and HIPPA concerns. Nobody has shadowed up there since....I was up there for over 2 years and nothing happened. Don't know what the big freak out was over.

 

[darklabel]

This is also a big problem in teaching hospitals and government hospitals (like the VA)

Took me 6 months to shadow and A LOT of the "go around"

 

[ClaytonB543]

🙂

 

[Back 5]

HIPAA doesn't preclude you from shadowing, but some corporate policies do. Find another physician OP and move on.

 

[spleencakes]

I've also had similar issues. I pretty much sat down one day and called up basically every DO office I could find. Unfortunately, many of them were in groups, and aside from the vast majority of my calls just not being returned (yeah, cold calling might not be the best idea, compared to walking in with a resume), I had quite a few tell me that I couldn't shadow due to HIPAA. This was all from HR and office managers and such. Most of the doctors who actually returned my call were totally fine with having me shadow, but then they would have me set stuff up through HR, and I'd get denied at that point. It usually wasn't any use trying to convince the office staff either. I have a weird feeling that some of the people I talked to were taking the "better safe than sorry" route with letting some random person shadow, as opposed to having legitimate concerns about privacy. Or it's easier to just say no... There were certain places where I was transferred to a billion different people within the hospital, and some people were saying I'd need to set up something through HR, but HR kept telling me to contact the specific department, and when I called back and forth, I eventually got people telling me that shadowing wasn't allowed. =/ Took me months just to set up a shadowing schedule after finding someone who would let me. I may have left a message basically telling them that nobody else in the area would call me back, and I really really really needed the opportunity. The office manager was nice enough to call me back, and she really worked with me to set up a schedule, despite all the phone tag. Maybe the begging worked! Best bet would probably be to keep looking, and try private practices if you aren't having luck with larger places. From personal experience, I feel like it's easier to deal with a small office staff than a huge HR department with a whole ton of rules and regulations.

 

[whatbout2morrow]

I guess it wouldn't be as much of a problem if you work in the medical field and undergo annual HIPAA certification.

 

[kami333]

I have a weird feeling that some of the people I talked to were taking the "better safe than sorry" route with letting some random person shadow, as opposed to having legitimate concerns about privacy. Or it's easier to just say no...

Look at it from their perspective, what do they (office staff, admins, HR) gain from letting a premed shadow? There's a very fine line between going out of your way to be helpful and creating a headache that wasn't a part of your original job description.

"Official" programs like nursing externships or accepting students who are already part of the program can be used as a recruiting/screening tool so both parties can benefit but a random premed? At best it's the physician and premed having a good networking opportunity, worst case the clinic/hospital/institution gets a reputation as an easy place to shadow and are swamped by requests, and even worse someone goofs and heavy stuff goes down (aka incidents that involve lawyers and government entities).

 

[Chibix]

I made a mistake, I actually contacted two schools. The DO school was A.T.Still University. I got a list from them of alumni still in Arizona. I forgot to mention that I also cold called different departments (psych, surgery, and IM) from University of Arizona medical center. The trauma surgery department called me back. I can give you the email of the woman who sets up shadowing there if you like?

This was supposed to be a reply to Nsn7. Mobile doesn't seem to quote.

 

[kami333]

I made a mistake, I actually contacted two schools. The DO school was A.T.Still University. I got a list from them of alumni still in Arizona. I forgot to mention that I also cold called different departments (psych, surgery, and IM) from University of Arizona medical center. The trauma surgery department called me back. I can give you the email of the woman who sets up shadowing there if you like?

That's how I got my DO shadowing experience, the school had a link to their clinical shadowing program on their website and I was able to squeeze in while their students were on summer break. It was also a good way to get familiar with the school and show my interest in attending.

 

[MedWonk]

So I had spoken with a physician today who was willing to allow me to shadow him, but when I tried to schedule it with the office manager, she was immediately standoffish, as if I was a terrible person for even bringing up shadowing if I wasn't already a medical student.

She kept telling me because of insurance reasons, HIPPA, or something, unless you're a student at a medical school you're not allowed to shadow. I tried to politely inform her I was aware of HIPPA, but that students are required to shadow before even gaining acceptance into medical school. The physician had even okayed it, and she just kept treating it as if I was lying to her and making up excuses as to why she couldn't ask the physician (When I had just spoken to him in the same office).

Eventually she agreed to call whatever organization their office was affiliated with, and she called me back later in the day. She had to make it a point that "I was right, you can't shadow". I was kind of flabbergasted, I didn't think I had done anything to warrant her rudeness.

Has anyone encountered such difficulty? I understand now that it was because of the company that runs some of the private practices over here, the ACP of Tucson to be precise. Are these kinds of rules common? How is one supposed to find organizations that are okay with shadowing? I've shadowed other physicians before, I used to be a certified EMT, and the physician even made a point to pick times where there wouldn't be the types of physicals patients may be uncomfortable with. It just seems kind of silly in a field where teaching is required.

That sounds like my experience. If not for scribing, I'd have very little in the way of shadowing type experience. Everytime I'd ask I'd get the runaround from the office manager/human resources and if I ever got to speak to a physician they were usually very standoffish and would "It's nothing personal, but...". The teaching hospital near me explicitly states on their volunteering page that shadowing isn't allowed unless you're a health professions student. I eventually got a couple of shadowing experiences, but it took a lot of frustration, phone calls, and emails to squeeze out 10 hours.

One shadowing experience was less than pleasant (shadowed a resident who abandoned me in an auditorium during grand rounds), the other one was super cool (NICU). I would say that, though, I learn more through working in a healthcare setting in close contact with physicians than through my shadowing experiences, and I end up observing the same things I would have through shadowing.

 

[pyrrion89]

How is one supposed to find organizations that are okay with shadowing?

In my experience, teaching hospitals are much more open to shadowing. Physicians who are also medical school instructors are also much more comfortable shadowing, and the organizations with which they are affiliated are also more open to pre-med kids shadowing. I just emailed lots of physicians at UCSF and eventually a few replied and let me shadow.

My only experience with HIPAA was the physician saying, "Yeah, just don't talk about the patients' names when we're outside the office."

 

[Nsn7]

I made a mistake, I actually contacted two schools. The DO school was A.T.Still University. I got a list from them of alumni still in Arizona. I forgot to mention that I also cold called different departments (psych, surgery, and IM) from University of Arizona medical center. The trauma surgery department called me back. I can give you the email of the woman who sets up shadowing there if you like?

This was supposed to be a reply to Nsn7. Mobile doesn't seem to quote.

Yeah, that would be great! Can you please PM her email?

 

[Nsn7]

I made a mistake, I actually contacted two schools. The DO school was A.T.Still University. I got a list from them of alumni still in Arizona. I forgot to mention that I also cold called different departments (psych, surgery, and IM) from University of Arizona medical center. The trauma surgery department called me back. I can give you the email of the woman who sets up shadowing there if you like?

This was supposed to be a reply to Nsn7. Mobile doesn't seem to quote.

Yeah, that would be great! Can you please PM me her email?