Shortest programs

[77kelly77]

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What schools have the lower averages for program completion? I read that U of Pittsburgh aims for six years (not sure how often it happens). Are there any other schools that try to avoid a protracted stay?

 

[xanthines]

Well, every school tries to avoid a protracted stay! I guess it all depends on their definitition, huh? 🙂

Duke's average is around 7 years with 6 years being not so uncommon. They compress the all the basic science stuff into about 14 months.

Case Western (my school) is now requiring all students to write some type of scholarly work, ie thesis, at the end of the second year. For MSTP students, this just means we start the PhD phase that much earlier. It remains to be seen if this shortens time spent in the program, though.

That's all I know of, other than Pitt.

-X

What schools have the lower averages for program completion? I read that U of Pittsburgh aims for six years (not sure how often it happens). Are there any other schools that try to avoid a protracted stay?

 

[mdphd2b]

What schools have the lower averages for program completion? I read that U of Pittsburgh aims for six years (not sure how often it happens). Are there any other schools that try to avoid a protracted stay?

Although our website says we "aim" for six years, no one in my 6 years here at Pitt has ever done this! Probably not in the recent past either!

Most students get their PhD's in 4-5 years, so it's definitely an 8-9 year program. We also have some 6-10yr PhD students once in awhile, which means their MD/PhD took well over 10 years, but luckily those are outliers.

In my class, we've all moved on to G4. About half of the class before ours moved on to G5. Don't be deceived by a 6-year "aim" at Pitt!

The only other school I know of is VCU who claims theire program lasts 6.5 years, mainly b/c they cut out MS-IV for them.

 

[tedrik]

Columbia goes for an average of 7, but the directors are very encouraging when it comes to putting in the extra work necessary to get out earlier.

 

[Habari]

Just a note: the graduation times program give are often what they 'aim for', i.e. 7 years or 7.5 years. This may not reflect the current average - sometimes it is off by ~1.5 years! Some programs may claim that there are changes in the program structures that are not reflected in their current graduation time average, and state that the current averages are not relevant. While this may be the case (there will most likely be a modest decrease in time), unless you see clear areas where consideration has been given to time issues, or larger institutional cultural changes, I would be somewhat skeptical. Simply inquire specifically about current times if it matters to you (it really should to some extent, in my opinion).

It is more important that there is institutional acknowledgement in the md/phd program and within the medical and graduate school that length of time in an md/phd program is something to be considered and regulated in some manner. It is up to you to find out how aggressive or hands off they are about it, and what you are comfortable with. Notable programs have been rebuked for both allowing students to languish in grad school resulting in extremely long graduation times, and others have been chastized for pushing their students out innapropriately. Intelligent people have myriad opinions about how much regulation is too much, and whether md/phd students should be treated differently from graduate or medical students.

Finally, it is up to you as a student, to some degree, to be vigilant about these issues - while good programs will note where you are and how you are doing, there is no hour glass with your name on it at a program offices desk. Realize that every student is different and stays in a program for shorter or longer times for various reasons, some factors are within their control, and some are without. Perhaps we hold these truths to be self-evident, but nevertheless I thought it would be worth mentioning.

 

[drbp]

What schools have the lower averages for program completion? I read that U of Pittsburgh aims for six years (not sure how often it happens). Are there any other schools that try to avoid a protracted stay?

You should ask every program you are interested in the average time for a student to complete the program. When they give you a number, ask them how recently and with how many students that number was calculated. Don't let them ignore this statistic! Most programs will give you a match list of the most recent class, all they have to do is tell you when each of those students started, and you know your answer.

This was a major factor for me when choosing programs. The MSTP at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine has a relatively large program, with a reasonable average. The latest number I have heard is between 7 and 8 years - the exact number doesn't matter because an individual is either graduating in 7 or 8, not somewhere in between.

Besides hearing that number, it seems reasonable. I am on track for 7, as are most of my classmates. A few unlucky folks, or those that took time off to start families, etc. plan to finish in 8. I know of at least 3 people who finished in 6.

 

[Newquagmire]

Case Western (my school) is now requiring all students to write some type of scholarly work, ie thesis, at the end of the second year. For MSTP students, this just means we start the PhD phase that much earlier.

Does Case compress preclinical into 1.5 years too? What constitutes a "scholarly work" and how do the students actually find enough time to publish?

 

[kassie]

I don't know who is the shortest because it depends on the length of graduate work.

In my school (Stony Brook) it also depends on the graduate department. Things seem to have been getting shorter here as the director is very involved in our progress and checking in to make sure things are moving. The most common is 7-8 if you don't change labs or have a personal conflict.

For example, I am graduating in May. In the class graduating this year, 2 are 8 with one who is finishing in 7 and one in 6 years and one who is much later, maybe a 10. Next year there are a 3 8 years, 2 7 years, and one 9th year.

I hope this helps

 

[GradTX]

How does previous graduate work at another institution effect time to graduation? I'm about to graduate with an M.S. in molecular and cellular biology. I'm guessing that most places are too snobby to let outside courses count.

 

[CaipirinhaQuinho]

Here are what some directors told me.

UVa has an average of 7.2 years
Penn's is 7.52 years

 

[ears]

What schools have the lower averages for program completion? I read that U of Pittsburgh aims for six years (not sure how often it happens). Are there any other schools that try to avoid a protracted stay?

I'm a recently completed MD/PhD. I took a long time (11 years), partly by my own choice(s). Even so, my program was not the most helpful in helping me move along. My totally unsolicited thoughts on this issue:

• Programs know that applicants care about this number, and so they... let's call it "massage" this number to make themselves more attractive. Caveat emptor.
• It's not really clear how much the numbers in question would apply to your situation, which is what you really care about. There are lots of variables in how long an MD/PhD takes, and the program-dependent ones change all the time (the director changes, the coordinator changes, individual departments make changes, etc.).
• If you're serious about doing an MD/PhD, pretty much anywhere, you must be prepared for the possibility that it could take nine years (or longer). There are things you can do to reduce that chance, there are things the program can do to reduce that chance, but if you're doing a true research-based PhD, you could end up spending a long time in the lab. If this possibility distresses you, you need to think hard about whether an MD/PhD is for you.
• That said, a good program is committed to facilitating the process to reduce that possibility. How will you recognize such a program? They will point to specific, concrete things they do to move people along. The students in the program will tell you that they feel encouraged and/or pressured to move things along. They'll also tell you that the MD/PhD program steps in to help them in conflicts with their department, and helps protect them.
• Let me also add that taking a long time with an MD/PhD actually isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world. It depends on what you're doing, where you're going, and how you like to live. How fast people a program gets its students out only matters to you if it matters to you, you know?

Good luck with this high-stakes decision that you have to make with woefully insufficient data (one of many in your career).

 

[beary]

Iowa's average is 7.5 years, and in my experience that is right on. Just about exactly half the people do it in 7 and half the folks do it in 8. In all the years I have been here (7), I am aware of 2 folks doing it in 6 and only 2 taking longer than 8.

 

[Ultra7]

How does previous graduate work at another institution effect time to graduation? I'm about to graduate with an M.S. in molecular and cellular biology. I'm guessing that most places are too snobby to let outside courses count.

Unfortunately, I don't think previous graduate work would help much. You're right that outside courses probably won't count, but even if you did get some credit, graduate classes actually account for a relatively small amount of time anyways. What is really going to determine the length of the program is the amount of time your thesis project takes.
Previous grad work might help you indirectly by making you more efficient in lab, if you gained some practical experience during your masters program. It also might help you a bit indirectly by decreasing the amount of time needed to study and prepare for class exams and your prelim.

 

[GradTX]

Unfortunately, I don't think previous graduate work would help much. You're right that outside courses probably won't count, but even if you did get some credit, graduate classes actually account for a relatively small amount of time anyways. What is really going to determine the length of the program is the amount of time your thesis project takes.
Previous grad work might help you indirectly by making you more efficient in lab, if you gained some practical experience during your masters program. It also might help you a bit indirectly by decreasing the amount of time needed to study and prepare for class exams and your prelim.

One would think that a thesis and 3 or 4 publications would count for something. 😉 However, I think I have learned a lot about picking a good PI and a project that can be completed in a reasonable amount of time. Oh how we learn from our mistakes...

 

[Pittance]

Pitt's aim is 7 years and that only counts those who finish! It used to be 8 years until they knocked off 6 months of core curriculum that the "PhD only" candidates take and another 6 months from students prior (summer) research experience. Alas this pressures students to stick with their mentor even if they'd rather start over with another...

 

[xanthines]

Does Case compress preclinical into 1.5 years too?

Yes. Our second year goes from July to December. We then study for Step I and then take it in Feb (I think?). Then we spend the rest of the year working on that thesis. Since I'm MSTP, I get start on the quals and whatever else I have to do for that PhD. I think with a lot of hard and luck, 6 years is relatively doable with the average coming closer to 7 than 8. That's just my half-assed researched prediction, though. 😉

What constitutes a "scholarly work" and how do the students actually find enough time to publish?

Scholarly work? Beats me! I don't think the thesis has to be published for graduation, though. The PhD for us MSTP students has to be of publishable quality of course, and most departments have varying degrees of publication requirements. Again, we are exempt from the thesis requirement because of that whole PhD thing.

-X

 

[Newquagmire]

Oh, I misunderstood the *all* students to mean all MSTP students. Apparently it refers to the medical students!