• Forums Updates Complete
    Thank you for your patience!

Should All Pharmacy Schools Require Bachelor's Degree?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Should all pharmacy schools require that students have bachelor's degrees by matriculation?


  • Total voters
    34
I think we shouldn't worry too much about saturation. If we think from the perspective of a businessman who wants to start a new school, this would be more clear. If I were to start business, I would ensure that my business is viable for several years in order to make good profits. I wouldn't start a business that is likely to be a failure over time, although it may yield initial success. Likewise, those who want to start a new school too would be highly cautious about the market. Starting and running a school involves huge investment. People who venture to start a new school would definitely analyze the market and only then open up a new school. They are smart to know the fact that even though there may be many applicants at present, the number of applicants will dwindle in future, if saturation becomes a serious problem. This in turn would impact their profits in the long run. Therefore, new schools won't open up as easily as we might imagine. Yet another aspect that a school would consider is reputation. Building a good reputation too is not very easy as it requires quality faculty, high pass rate, good job placements and so on. So starting a new school is not an easy task.

Members don't see this ad.
 
I never said your original statements are wrong, I simply said you were mostly joking and that you didn't provide a solution - both are true. What do you mean it won't do anything? Would you prefer someone with average GPA at a community college and average PCAT with no bachelor's to get accepted, or would you prefer someone with average GPA and a bachelor's from a university with the same PCAT to get accepted? I hope it's the latter.

No, it doesn't, but it adds to the prestige because it adds a level of difficulty to the admission process - medical school admissions is not a joke for most people. Along with a bachelor's, most medical students have competitive GPA from a university while obtaining their bachelor's, competitive MCAT scores, and good EC. I'm proposing the same idea for pharmacy...
It sounds like you are knocking community college. I have been to both a CC and state university. The CC I went to is one of the top in the nation and the natural sciences were a lot harder both in lab and lecture than at my state university. This is also in comparison to upper level Bio. classes I took for a med. tech program at my four year school. Maybe my CC is different, Cornell school of the sciences love recruiting our students, our organic chem. acs exam average is in the 80th percentile compared to national average of 50.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I don't think that saturation is directly affected by the fact that a bachelor's degree is not required for the profession. I would say that the biggest problem in pharmacy, like so many others have mentioned, is the very low standards that many of the pharmacy schools across the nation have. If you're a student coming out of high school and you see an option where you can simply pass basic biology and chemistry classes, take a standardized test and earn a score LOWER THAN THE AVERAGE (read: <50th percentile) person taking that test, and FOUR YEARS LATER earn >$100k a year why would you not do that!?

That said, I don't think that the degree of saturation is as bad as people make it out to be. If you are someone coming into this profession expecting an easy road to a six-figure salary who doesn't put the required extra work in.. you'll likely have problems. Just as in any other profession you have to make the employer want you as an employee over other applicants. IF you are a student who is making good grades in under grad and pharmacy school and networking properly you shouldn't have trouble finding a job. You may not be able to find your dream job of 7-3 M-F in the location of your choosing, but if you are flexible you WILL find a good job.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
I am going into pharmacy because it is only 6 years path. If it became 8 years, I will go into med without any hesitation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I don't think that saturation is directly affected by the fact that a bachelor's degree is not required for the profession. I would say that the biggest problem in pharmacy, like so many others have mentioned, is the very low standards that many of the pharmacy schools across the nation have. If you're a student coming out of high school and you see an option where you can simply pass basic biology and chemistry classes, take a standardized test and earn a score LOWER THAN THE AVERAGE (read: <50th percentile) person taking that test, and FOUR YEARS LATER earn >$100k a year why would you not do that!?

That said, I don't think that the degree of saturation is as bad as people make it out to be. If you are someone coming into this profession expecting an easy road to a six-figure salary who doesn't put the required extra work in.. you'll likely have problems. Just as in any other profession you have to make the employer want you as an employee over other applicants. IF you are a student who is making good grades in under grad and pharmacy school and networking properly you shouldn't have trouble finding a job. You may not be able to find your dream job of 7-3 M-F in the location of your choosing, but if you are flexible you WILL find a good job.
I honestly could not agree any more. It is the low standards that is causing the saturation. Think about it this way, if med schools accepted people with 2.5 gpa and low scores on MCAT, don't you think there would be saturation of doctors too?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I think we shouldn't worry too much about saturation. If we think from the perspective of a businessman who wants to start a new school, this would be more clear. If I were to start business, I would ensure that my business is viable for several years in order to make good profits. I wouldn't start a business that is likely to be a failure over time, although it may yield initial success. Likewise, those who want to start a new school too would be highly cautious about the market. Starting and running a school involves huge investment. People who venture to start a new school would definitely analyze the market and only then open up a new school. They are smart to know the fact that even though there may be many applicants at present, the number of applicants will dwindle in future, if saturation becomes a serious problem. This in turn would impact their profits in the long run. Therefore, new schools won't open up as easily as we might imagine. Yet another aspect that a school would consider is reputation. Building a good reputation too is not very easy as it requires quality faculty, high pass rate, good job placements and so on. So starting a new school is not an easy task.

And from the perspective of greedy "business men," it doesn't matter if students graduate with $200k+ in debts and have no jobs, because they would have already paid their exorbitant tuitions to these new schools by then. I'm not so sure I would agree that we don't really have to worry about saturation issues due to the fact that new pharmacy schools are opening all over. In fact, I would think it's quite the opposite, and many people who are planning to enter the field should certainly consider the saturation issue. Also, more than 50% of new businesses fail within the first 4 years, so that means if they can keep the school opened for a least 5 years or more, then they would have beaten the average (and made a decent profit in the process). This is all to the detriment of the future of the pharmacy profession and those who plan to make a career of it...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It sounds like you are knocking community college. I have been to both a CC and state university. The CC I went to is one of the top in the nation and the natural sciences were a lot harder both in lab and lecture than at my state university. This is also in comparison to upper level Bio. classes I took for a med. tech program at my four year school. Maybe my CC is different, Cornell school of the sciences love recruiting our students, our organic chem. acs exam average is in the 80th percentile compared to national average of 50.

I was careful not to knock on community colleges in my previous posts, as I know some community colleges are quite decent and do provide very good education. However, they are the few, and I think you may have gone to one of those CC. In any case, I'm not referring to those who went to CC and got 4.0 with 80%ile+ PCAT, but those who went to CC with the intention of doing the bare minimum. So, in reference to my previous post: an average student from a typical CC (no bachelor's) or an average student from a typical university (with a bachelor's), who has more educational experience and should be the one accepted into a PharmD program?
 
I don't think that saturation is directly affected by the fact that a bachelor's degree is not required for the profession. I would say that the biggest problem in pharmacy, like so many others have mentioned, is the very low standards that many of the pharmacy schools across the nation have. If you're a student coming out of high school and you see an option where you can simply pass basic biology and chemistry classes, take a standardized test and earn a score LOWER THAN THE AVERAGE (read: <50th percentile) person taking that test, and FOUR YEARS LATER earn >$100k a year why would you not do that!?

The low standards include taking people with abysmal stats with only pre-reqs and no bachelor's. My proposal was to make the standards higher, and that includes requiring a bachelor's. It's an extra step and pushes the profession in the right direction as I've detailed in my previous posts to oldstock.

That said, I don't think that the degree of saturation is as bad as people make it out to be. If you are someone coming into this profession expecting an easy road to a six-figure salary who doesn't put the required extra work in.. you'll likely have problems. Just as in any other profession you have to make the employer want you as an employee over other applicants. IF you are a student who is making good grades in under grad and pharmacy school and networking properly you shouldn't have trouble finding a job. You may not be able to find your dream job of 7-3 M-F in the location of your choosing, but if you are flexible you WILL find a good job.

The degree of saturation is relative to location, and may not be as bad as some of the doom and gloomers are saying on here. However, with respect to the future of the profession, I don't see the saturation issue being addressed. In fact, I would even argue that the degree of saturation is getting worse by the day. What does that mean for the future of the profession and those to graduate 5 or 10 years from now?
 
I am going into pharmacy because it is only 6 years path. If it became 8 years, I will go into med without any hesitation.

Exactly! I'm sure you're not the only one who thinks so...
 
I honestly could not agree any more. It is the low standards that is causing the saturation. Think about it this way, if med schools accepted people with 2.5 gpa and low scores on MCAT, don't you think there would be saturation of doctors too?

Don't forget the bachelor's. Let's compare apples to apples now, so it's more like:

Think about it this way, if med schools accepted people with 2.5 gpa, no bachelors (only pre-reqs), and low scores on MCAT, don't you think there would be saturation of doctors too?
 
Don't forget the bachelor's. Let's compare apples to apples now, so it's more like:

Think about it this way, if med schools accepted people with 2.5 gpa, no bachelors (only pre-reqs), and low scores on MCAT, don't you think there would be saturation of doctors too?


Man, I was not going to post anything after my last post because I thought everything could have been said was already said. But I could not help to say something here. (I recommend you to read again and reflect on what others already said about bachelor should NOT be an absolute requirement for pharmacy school admission).

But I would like to break it down again for you here:

-first, the admission standards and process should be fair and transparent to EVERYONE.

-it should be NOT about creating new barriers just for the sake of barriers. The admission requirements for pharmacy school admission should be about ALL the factors that could help to predict and select the BEST students who most likely to successfully complete the program and pass the board exam after graduation from pharmacy schools. The admission committee should be able to compare students based on standards/admission requirements that are supported by scientific evidence that they are correlated to the success of students in pharmacy schools, and not by opinions to avoid the problem of comparing apples to oranges.

Therefore, the absolute admission requirements should be:

-core pre-pharmacy coursework: which should be relevant to the later study of pharmacy. For example, English composition, general biology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, general physics, calculus, statistics, etc. Without those basic skills and knowledge, one absolutely could be held back or struggling in pharmacy schools.

-PCAT: this is the most important because it is designed (and more and more fine tuned) to test and measure how well a pre-pharmacy students retain basic knowledge from those pre-pharmacy courses, comprehend, analyze and integrate those knowledge with new data/information/knowledge and apply those to solve new problems. In another word, the PCAT is designed and used to gauge the competency and mastery of the prepharmacy knowledge core of the students who are taking the test. Moreover, everyone has to take this same standardized test, whose scores are calculated and scaled according to scientific standards and methods which are supported by scientific research and evidence. Thus it is fair and transparent as to who is better than who as the person that could be a better candidate for pharmacy admission and more likely to be successful in completing the pharmacy program.

-a base GPA: which would be the same for ALL regardless of where or what school they go to. Example, a GPA of 2.0-2.50 would be sufficient. Below this line shows that the students are truly struggling in the school they are attending at.

So, by what I am saying above, a bachelor degree does/is/can NOT:

-relevant or reliable to predict a success of a pre-pharmacy student in pharmacy school. There is no scientific evidence for this (if you disgree, please show us a scientific/peer-reviewed study which is supporting your opinion). After all, pharmacy schools are teaching pharmacy science for God's sake. Their admission process should be scientific as well.

-be used as reliable factor in the comparison of students/candidates for pharmacy admission. Not all bachelor degree are created equal. For example, bachelor degree in history is not as relevant to pharmacy study as a bachelor degree in biochemistry from the same school. A bachelor degree from Harvard is not the same bachelor from Stanford, etc. A bachelor degree, thus, cannot be used to compare students and conclude that who is better candidate than who as we are only comparing apples to oranges. By comparing apples to oranges, the process is neither fair nor transparent.

By those above reasons, a bachelor degree should not be an ABSOLUTE requirement for admission. A bachelor degree, however, could be used as an added/bonus point to one's pharmacy application, but again should not be an absolute requirement for admission.

Simply requiring a bachelor degree for pharmacy school admission is just forcing students to waste more time and money in school learning things that they might never use or are relevant to the study or practice of pharmacy.

In general, an excellent student could accomplish a lot in a very short period of time vs a mediocre student. This is evidently reflected in those early admission to medical schools: e.g. in those BA/MD accelerated programs, those brilliant students would apply to medical schools in their sophomore year of 4-year college (or even right after high school graduation in some programs); if accepted, they are progressing to medical schools and taking medical coursework and receiving a bachelor degree after the second year of medical school and a MD after year 3 and 4. Total years spent: 6 years. (I know this because my cousin did this :) )

By making a bachelor degree an absolute admission requirement for pharmacy school, school will completely miss out the opportunity to identify students with GREAT potentials.

You, early on, said that I was against making bachelor degree an absolute admission requirement because I might not have a bachelor degree, thus here am arguing just for my benefits. I bet you have a bachelor degree. And I bet you are here arguing for your benefits too.

A question: what would those folks who have a master degree and apply for pharmacy school admission think of us? I guess many of them would think that it would be fair to make a master degree a minimum degree required for admission :) Plus, you said above that medical school admission is respected because many medical schools are requiring a bachelor degree for admission, and if we require a bachelor for pharmacy school admission, pharmacy admission and pharmacists would probably be more respected. (hmmm....)

In that spirit, a master degree or PhD as an absolute admission requirement for pharmacy schools would only and greatly enhance the reputation of our pharmacy profession. This is already happening with medical school admission. There are many pre-med students who failed to gain admission to medical schools on the first try have to go on to gain a master degree just to enhance their chance for admission. So why not for pharmacy ??

I now propose making a master degree a minimum degree that is absolutely required for pharmacy school admission !! :)
 
Last edited:
In my humble opinion, admission requirements are different from admission barriers. Many pharmacy schools are requiring a bachelor as an absolute admission requirement, and most I see are pharmacy schools in California that are doing this. This is more like an artificial barrier, just for the sake of preventing and minimizing the increasing number of people from applying to pharmacy schools rather than it is truly needed or a reliable predictor for the success of the applicant later in pharmacy schools. This could be easily explained in terms of economics: this is happening in California because there are probably more applications to their pharmacy schools (on the average) than the average numbers of applications to other pharmacy schools in other states. A lot of Californians probably wants to go to pharmacy schools than other people in other states (this is probably true if we look around :) ) and also wants to stay in California for schools. Thus I think this increasing competition for pharmacy school admission forces schools in California to install those artificial barriers just for the sake of barriers.
 
Last edited:
In my humble opinion, admission requirements are different from admission barriers. Many pharmacy schools are requiring a bachelor as an absolute admission requirement, and most I see are pharmacy schools in California that are doing this. This is more like an artificial barrier, just for the sake of preventing and minimizing people to apply to pharmacy schools rather than it is truly needed or reliable predictor for the success of the applicant later in pharmacy schools. This is easily explained in terms of economics: this is happening in California because there are probably more applications to their pharmacy schools (on the average) than the average numbers of applications to other pharmacy schools in other states. A lot of Californian probably wants to go to pharmacy school (this is probably true if we look around :) ) and also wants to stay in California for schools. Thus I think this forces schools in California to install those barriers for the sake of barriers.

I don't understand why you feel that entering pharmacy should be free of barriers. These barriers help to weed out people, so that only the cream of the crop is selected. I know students from poor families and immigrants who still managed to put themselves through university while working (e.g. me). What is the excuse preventing others from earning a bachelor's degree? Additionally, with my degree I had to take softer sciences where I learned about alternative medicine, research methods, evidence-based medicine, ethics, social issues due to injustice and bias in our society. The extra classes enhanced my college experience and broadened my world view. I honestly think that the more education people receive, the better off the world will be.

As a pharmacy student, I think it would be very important to have additional knowledge outside of the required prerequisites. Competence in the sciences and humanities as achieved with a bachelor's degree might suggest that an applicant is well-rounded. I am sorry but I disagree with your stance and I think a GPA below 3.0 is poor. We have to strive for excellence and not repeatedly settle for Bs and Cs. People should not be able to half-ass their way into pharmacy school while others, like myself, pull all-nighters on a weekly basis to obtain the highest of grades. If anyone cares about the future of pharmacy they would understand why it is necessary to keep standards high and class sizes small.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I don't understand why you feel that entering pharmacy should be free of barriers. These barriers help to weed out people, so that only the cream of the crop is selected. I know students from poor families and immigrants who still managed to put themselves through university while working (e.g. me). What is the excuse preventing others from earning a bachelor's degree? Additionally, with my degree I had to take softer sciences where I learned about alternative medicine, research methods, evidence-based medicine, ethics, social issues due to injustice and bias in our society. The extra classes enhanced my college experience and broadened my world view. I honestly think that the more education people receive, the better off the world will be.

I suggest you read what I said again before putting words in my mouth. I did not say pharmacy schools should be free of barriers.

Barriers are fine as long as they are fair and justified. A bachelor degree as an absolute requirement for admission is neither fair or justified. It is only an opinion which might get realized and artificially installed as a barrier just for the sake of barrier. A barrier for the sake of being a barrier does not help much to select the best candidate for pharmacy school study.

Anyway, did you NOT see I am now proposing making a master degree a minimum degree required for pharmacy school admission ?? :) What is the excuse preventing you or others from earning a master degree or even PhD for pharmacy school admission ?? Medical schools have already done this for their admission.

Also, those folks who got admitted to those early assurance admission for medical schools surely do not have those extra classes and softer science that you have to take for your bachelor degree. Surely, their world view is narrowed and college experience is limited. That, surely, is very bad for the world. Oh wait, we could google everything though (lol)

All joking asides, all I can do is to suggest you to read my arguments again. Please :)


As a pharmacy student, I think it would be very important to have additional knowledge outside of the required prerequisites. Competence in the sciences and humanities as achieved with a bachelor's degree might suggest that an applicant is well-rounded.

I agree. But a bachelor degree being an absolute requirement for admission would prevent others that are equally well-rounded by life experience who are without a bachelor. Let me give you some extreme examples and hope you get the idea: Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Thomas Edison, people that go and serve in the military without a 4-year degree, etc. And how well-rounded that your bachelor degree, let's say in Sociology, compared to another's bachelor degree in Economics, or Biophysics, let alone those are from different schools ?? how would that help to select the one that is the "best" rounded all around ??


I am sorry but I disagree with your stance and I think a GPA below 3.0 is poor
. We have to strive for excellence and not repeatedly settle for Bs and Cs. People should not be able to half-ass their way into pharmacy school while others, like myself, pull all-nighters on a weekly basis to obtain the highest of grades.

You again need to read the whole argument of mine, not to read pieces and/or take words out of context. I am not advocating for poor academic performance to be selected for pharmacy school. I only say that 2.0-2.5 could serve as a baseline as an example, not to be set in stone. This baseline needs to be established based on well-founded and supported scientific evidence that it could help in selecting the better candidates for pharmacy school admission. So if most scientific studies give evidence that 3.5 should be the baseline, I am all for it.

Again, you need to consider the problem of comparing apples and oranges. Let's say everyone now has a bachelor degree before applying for pharmacy schools. How would you compared a 3.0 GPA for a bachelor degree from, let's say, University of Buffalo to a 3.0 GPA for a bachelor degree from, Harvard ?? How could you tell which one is the better candidate given they all have the same everything else, e.g. PCAT scores, excellent recommendations, excellent extracurricular activities, etc ?? How would you tell who was 1/2 ass vs full ass then ??


If anyone cares about the future of pharmacy they would understand why it is necessary to keep standards high and class sizes small.

You go and tell it to the ACPE. It is them who let more and more schools open up. This increases the seats available that the schools need to fill. Which, in turn, lower the standards of admission. Just pure econ 101 here: supply and demand.

Bachelor degree or not bachelor degree does not change the situation of lower standards of admission for pharmacy schools here or the "saturation" of pharmacy job market later in the future. You would see those same "less qualified" people in pharmacy schools even when a bachelor degree is a must for pharmacy school admission. Those people are now just sitting in schools longer for a bachelor degree. If you are mediocre, you are mediocre with or without a bachelor degree. And those mediocre people, after being armed with a bachelor degree, are still admitted into pharmacy schools as those seats are still needed to be filled !! :)

But, then again, I am advocating for higher standards of admission. These must be founded on solid scientific methods and evidence, and not by opinions or feelings. As my current opinion goes for now, I am all for making a master degree or a PhD a minimum degree required for pharmacy school admission :)
 
Last edited:
Barriers are fine as long as they are fair and justified. A bachelor degree as an absolute requirement for admission is neither fair or justified. It is only an opinion which might get realized and artificially installed as a barrier just for the sake of barrier. A barrier for the sake of being a barrier does not help much to select the best candidate for pharmacy school study.

@oldstock I do not understand why you feel a bachelor's degree is in an unfair requirement. The PharmD degree is technically an advanced degree and most graduate and professional programs require that an applicant complete a bachelor's degree prior to pursuing an advanced degree. This is a practice that has been done for years and I do not see any major detrimental effects of integrating this requirement into the field of pharmacy.

Anyway, did you NOT see I am now proposing making a master degree a minimum degree required for pharmacy school admission ?? :) What is the excuse preventing you or others from earning a master degree or even PhD for pharmacy school admission ??

I am not opposed to completing a master's degree if it will get me to where I want to be in life; however there is no requirement to complete a master's degree to matriculate into pharmacy school, so I have chosen to not pursue one. Requiring a PhD in order to attend pharmacy school seems redundant, seeing that the PharmD is a doctorate already. You advocate for scientific studies to be done on whether a bachelor's degree increases the success of applicants; however, I do not think that there is a need to reinvent the wheel. A bachelor's degree, competitive GPA and PCAT score all serve as surrogate endpoints for the future success of candidates. A student who successfully completes a bachelor's degree is well-equipped to handle four years of pharmacy school. A high GPA shows a candidate's dedication to academics and ability to excel in coursework. A high PCAT score shows that the applicant has mastered the topics that have been taught in school and he/she is intelligent enough to move on to learning more difficult subjects. (Note: the rationale behind setting these requirements is just).

But a bachelor degree being an absolute requirement for admission would prevent others that are equally well-rounded by life experience who are without a bachelor.

During these times of saturation, maybe we have to exclude more people from pharmacy school whether they are qualified or not. I would love to be an actress but I have been told that I am not the right weight, height, or skin color to make it, so I moved on and developed my brain so that I could excel in another sector. It might hurt someone's feelings to be rejected, but it helps to build character. You seem to want to see the job market as an idealistic place where there is room for all of us, but the sad fact is that in any given society there will be stratification based on wealth and education and there are a limited number of job opportunities. There are other jobs out there that people should explore instead of flooding this field, especially if there is still time for students to change their course. I still think a GPA under 3.0 is poor whether baseline or not. I know biochemistry, mathematics and physics majors who managed to graduate with honors so why is a 3.0 too much to ask for? If an applicant really wants to attend pharmacy school and they perform poorly in a class, then he/she should get tutoring and retake the class for a higher grade.
I think most admission committees can discern which applicants had a more difficult course load based on the subject being studied and background of the institution the student attended. A biochemical engineering major with a 3.4 GPA is just as attractive as a sociology major with a 3.9 GPA as long as both applicants received good grades in their prerequisite courses, a competitive PCAT score, and satisfied the other requirements. If people want a good-paying and stable job, they should be prepared to work hard and jump over every barrier presented to them.

I am in the process of writing a letter to the proper authorities about this issue, because I do feel strongly about this. I have invested so many years of my life into pursuing pharmacy and it would cause me a great deal of pain to come out of pharmacy school unemployed and hopeless. I may come off as callous, but I believe in facing reality and taking preventative measures when necessary.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Man, I was not going to post anything after my last post because I thought everything could have been said was already said. But I could not help to say something here. (I recommend you to read again and reflect on what others already said about bachelor should NOT be an absolute requirement for pharmacy school admission).

You make it seem as though everyone here agrees with you and that I haven’t read a single one of the responses. I’m not sure if you’re so biased in your opinion that you couldn’t see the truth in front of your eyes or you just choose to ignore them, but neither of your assumptions are true. First, the poll is split (not everyone agrees with you!) and leaning in my favor, in fact! Second, I’ve read every single post and responded to most with a defense along with a solid reason for my position. I’ve outlined several reasons why I am for the requirement of a bachelor’s degree, and not a single person who is against the requirement of a bachelor’s challenged those reasons. I welcome the challenge and am absolutely okay with the fact that there will be people (like you) who choose disagree with me. We can agree to disagree, and that’s absolutely fine with me. However, don’t let your ego and self-righteousness get in the way and come off as though everyone agrees with you – it’s simply not the case.

Please come up with a logical rebuttal for my previous response to you if you’re inclined. If not, my conviction for the bachelor’s requirement stands unless otherwise challenged.

But I would like to break it down again for you here:

-first, the admission standards and process should be fair and transparent to EVERYONE.

-it should be NOT about creating new barriers just for the sake of barriers. The admission requirements for pharmacy school admission should be about ALL the factors that could help to predict and select the BEST students who most likely to successfully complete the program and pass the board exam after graduation from pharmacy schools. The admission committee should be able to compare students based on standards/admission requirements that are supported by scientific evidence that they are correlated to the success of students in pharmacy schools, and not by opinions to avoid the problem of comparing apples to oranges.

I agree it should be fair, and requiring a bachelor’s degree does not take away from the fairness. Like I’ve said before, requiring a bachelor’s degree is not simply “for the sake of barriers,” as one can learn and take away a lot that could apply to the field of pharmacy by gaining a bachelor’s degree. Furthermore, my reason for this was to put the PharmD up to the level of requirements as other doctorate degrees. Note that ramizlol’s post is evidence that my proposal will work in causing people to weigh a PharmD versus other doctorate degrees. S/he said, “I am going into pharmacy because it is only 6 years path. If it became 8 years, I will go into med without any hesitation.” Right after I posted my reason, I can already find evidence in the same thread showing how it would work! Bachelor’s degree requirement, it reads: Pharmacy Saturation Mitigation Mechanism.

Therefore, the absolute admission requirements should be:

-core pre-pharmacy coursework: which should be relevant to the later study of pharmacy. For example, English composition, general biology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, general physics, calculus, statistics, etc. Without those basic skills and knowledge, one absolutely could be held back or struggling in pharmacy schools.

This is what we are currently having, and it’s not working! People with abysmal GPA with only pre-reqs are getting accepted left and right. You can’t say this doesn’t add to the saturation! Furthermore, no one is disagreeing with requiring the re-reqs, I’m just proposing the requirement of a bachelor’s on top of it. Bringing this up is just another digression without getting to the real meat of our discussion.

-PCAT: this is the most important because it is designed (and more and more fine tuned) to test and measure how well a pre-pharmacy students retain basic knowledge from those pre-pharmacy courses, comprehend, analyze and integrate those knowledge with new data/information/knowledge and apply those to solve new problems. In another word, the PCAT is designed and used to gauge the competency and mastery of the prepharmacy knowledge core of the students who are taking the test. Moreover, everyone has to take this same standardized test, whose scores are calculated and scaled according to scientific standards and methods which are supported by scientific research and evidence. Thus it is fair and transparent as to who is better than who as the person that could be a better candidate for pharmacy admission and more likely to be successful in completing the pharmacy program.

Again, no one is disagreeing with the PCAT requirement. However, I will say that it shouldn’t be “the most important,” due to the fact that it’s only PART OF the requirements (like a bachelor’s degree should be). In fact, there are several published research studies that show there are no correlations between performance on standardized exams and the quality of students. I mentioned that to point out the fallacy in your reasoning, despite the fact that it has little to do with our main topic of discussion: The requirement of a bachelor’s degree for matriculation into pharmacy school. Furthermore, you mentioned you did well on the PCAT before, so I’m guessing this is probably a reason why you’re a strong proponent of the PCAT being “the most important” criteria for accepting students into pharmacy school.

-a base GPA: which would be the same for ALL regardless of where or what school they go to. Example, a GPA of 2.0-2.50 would be sufficient. Below this line shows that the students are truly struggling in the school they are attending at.

Are you kidding me?!?! 2.0-2.5 and no bachelor’s?!?! Are you trying to kill the profession by wanting to take on 2.0-2.5 and no bachelor’s? Seriously? This is the most appalling idea you’ve thrown out up to this point!

So, by what I am saying above, a bachelor degree does/is/can NOT:

-relevant or reliable to predict a success of a pre-pharmacy student in pharmacy school. There is no scientific evidence for this (if you disgree, please show us a scientific/peer-reviewed study which is supporting your opinion). After all, pharmacy schools are teaching pharmacy science for God's sake. Their admission process should be scientific as well.

You’re funny. You want a 2.0-2.5 standard with no bachelor’s, and you want to talk “scientific.” You must understand that we’re not talking about any aspect of science here. In fact, we’re mostly talking about education – an arguably non-science field. So let’s not pretend like we’re discussing the pharmacokinetic of drugs or how to put a man on Mars.

Nonetheless, in rebuttal to your claim that there’s no scientific evidence supporting that a bachelor’s degree predicts success in pharmacy school. I would like to point out that standardize exams have been shown to no be a good predictor of student performance in college, should that be thrown out as well? Of course not, because you’re a strong proponent of the PCAT. This invalidates your statement that a bachelor’s is not required simply because there’s no evidence that it’s a predictor of student performance. This reasoning is fallacious because it implies the idea that if there’s not evidence for something, then it must not be beneficial or valid. That’s absolutely false and illogical reasoning.

In terms of evidence, I’d like to point out the fact that many people in this very thread have pointed out that they have much to gain from earning a bachelor’s degree and that they’re different and better due to their completion of their bachelor’s degrees. This is a strong evidence to push for the requirement of a bachelor’s in my opinion.

-be used as reliable factor in the comparison of students/candidates for pharmacy admission. Not all bachelor degree are created equal. For example, bachelor degree in history is not as relevant to pharmacy study as a bachelor degree in biochemistry from the same school. A bachelor degree from Harvard is not the same bachelor from Stanford, etc. A bachelor degree, thus, cannot be used to compare students and conclude that who is better candidate than who as we are only comparing apples to oranges. By comparing apples to oranges, the process is neither fair nor transparent.

No one said all bachelor’s have to be created equal! Quit trying to argue a point that was never up for discussion in the first place. In any case, I’ve already provided a rebuttal for this in my previous post (please re-read for more details). That is, students’ performance on the pre-reqs along with the bachelor’s degree will be the equalizer for differences among bachelor’s degrees. I don’t care if they got a bachelor’s in Underwater Basket Weaving, if they also got 4.0 in their science pre-reqs and 80%ile+ PCAT, then what does it matter? In addition to this, many people have gotten into medical school with bachelor’s in non-science fields – it made no difference because they got good grades in the science pre-reqs and got competitive MCAT composite.

In support to my reasons above, I’d like to point out that people have said they’ve matured and have much to gain from acquiring their bachelor’s (in this very thread) despite the fact that they may have all had different majors. What does this mean? This means that the takeaway and the benefit of obtaining a bachelor’s is still there regardless of what they got their bachelor’s in.

The above reasons should put an end to your diatribe regarding the idea that not all bachelor’s are created equal.

By those above reasons, a bachelor degree should not be an ABSOLUTE requirement for admission. A bachelor degree, however, could be used as an added/bonus point to one's pharmacy application, but again should not be an absolute requirement for admission.

Those reasons have been rebutted and flaws have been pointed out. Therefore, I cannot agree with you on not requiring a bachelor’s degree. I still stand behind my original position regarding the requirement of a bachelor’s for pharmacy school.

Simply requiring a bachelor degree for pharmacy school admission is just forcing students to waste more time and money in school learning things that they might never use or are relevant to the study or practice of pharmacy.

I’ve taken a few upper-division courses that I thought were highly beneficial to me, as they taught me how to deal with different types of people. I also had a keen interest in philosophy and logic, so I’ve benefitted from those courses as well. I use all those things I’ve learned when I work in the pharmacy setting as well as in everyday life. I’ve also done research as part of my undergrad requirement, and that experience helped me understand and make sense of pharmaceutical research that I run across. Therefore, I disagree with your assessment regarding them being “never used or relevant to the study or practice of pharmacy.”

In general, an excellent student could accomplish a lot in a very short period of time vs a mediocre student. This is evidently reflected in those early admission to medical schools: e.g. in those BA/MD accelerated programs, those brilliant students would apply to medical schools in their sophomore year of 4-year college (or even right after high school graduation in some programs); if accepted, they are progressing to medical schools and taking medical coursework and receiving a bachelor degree after the second year of medical school and a MD after year 3 and 4. Total years spent: 6 years. (I know this because my cousin did this )

Please note that your anecdote above points to the fact that they acquire a bachelor’s degree despite getting an MD. Why not require the same for pharmacy?

By making a bachelor degree an absolute admission requirement for pharmacy school, school will completely miss out the opportunity to identify students with GREAT potentials.

I disagree. Please provide evidence if you’re going to make this claim.

You, early on, said that I was against making bachelor degree an absolute admission requirement because I might not have a bachelor degree, thus here am arguing just for my benefits. I bet you have a bachelor degree. And I bet you are here arguing for your benefits too.

I admit that I AM arguing to my benefit! However, not for the reason that you’re assuming though. I like the pharmacy profession and I want it to thrive, so it would be to my benefit (and all of us) if it does thrive by not being too saturated. I want people to enter the profession for the right reason and with the qualifications that would push the profession in the right direction. So you’re right, it is to my benefit. If you’re thinking I’m arguing for a bachelor’s because I have one, then that just makes no sense. It makes no difference to me at this point, as I’ve already been accepted to my top choice a while back. The benefit I’m seeking is down the line… 5, 10, 20 years from now. The benefit is seeing the profession being respected for what it is and not being overly saturated to its detriment.

A question: what would those folks who have a master degree and apply for pharmacy school admission think of us? I guess many of them would think that it would be fair to make a master degree a minimum degree required for admission Plus, you said above that medical school admission is respected because many medical schools are requiring a bachelor degree for admission, and if we require a bachelor for pharmacy school admission, pharmacy admission and pharmacists would probably be more respected. (hmmm....)

“Hmmm…” is not a rebuttal and serves no purpose in a discussion. Please try again if you’re so adamant about not requiring a bachelor’s degree.

To answer your question, they were impressed that we knew what we wanted to do and got a bachelor’s prior to applying (I actually spoke to several pharmacy students who got masters). They got their masters because they weren’t sure what to do prior to finding their passion in pharmacy (completely understandable). As for requiring master degrees as a minimum for pharmacy school… What does that have to do with anything? I see what you’re trying to do, but the logic doesn’t flow. No doctorate program requires master or higher degrees for matriculation, while bachelor’s degrees are indeed required for many doctorate programs. Furthermore, I have already rebutted this idea in my previous post, so unless you can come up with a response to my rebuttal, it’s has no value being brought up again.

In that spirit, a master degree or PhD as an absolute admission requirement for pharmacy schools would only and greatly enhance the reputation of our pharmacy profession. This is already happening with medical school admission. There are many pre-med students who failed to gain admission to medical schools on the first try have to go on to gain a master degree just to enhance their chance for admission. So why not for pharmacy ??

I now propose making a master degree a minimum degree that is absolutely required for pharmacy school admission !!

You are absolutely incorrect! The MD students get master degrees ONLY because they don’t have the competitive GPA and MCAT to make it into extremely competitive MD schools. The DO students often just retake their classes and use grades replacement to increase their chances, hence, they often do not get master degrees if they want to do DO. Master degrees were NEVER required for medical school, so please don’t try to twist the truth to make your argument sound credible. I’m sorry to say, but this is a weak and poorly structured argument founded upon an incorrect assumption as I have pointed out, so it doesn’t hold any water.

Oh, one last thing: Please save your sarcasms, as they’ll make more of an impact when you actually have a solid reason to support your case.
 
Last edited:
@oldstock I do not understand why you feel a bachelor's degree is in an unfair requirement. The PharmD degree is technically an advanced degree and most graduate and professional programs require that an applicant complete a bachelor's degree prior to pursuing an advanced degree. This is a practice that has been done for years and I do not see any major detrimental effects of integrating this requirement into the field of pharmacy.



I am not opposed to completing a master's degree if it will get me to where I want to be in life; however there is no requirement to complete a master's degree to matriculate into pharmacy school, so I have chosen to not pursue one. Requiring a PhD in order to attend pharmacy school seems redundant, seeing that the PharmD is a doctorate already. You advocate for scientific studies to be done on whether a bachelor's degree increases the success of applicants; however, I do not think that there is a need to reinvent the wheel. A bachelor's degree, competitive GPA and PCAT score all serve as surrogate endpoints for the future success of candidates. A student who successfully completes a bachelor's degree is well-equipped to handle four years of pharmacy school. A high GPA shows a candidate's dedication to academics and ability to excel in coursework. A high PCAT score shows that the applicant has mastered the topics that have been taught in school and he/she is intelligent enough to move on to learning more difficult subjects. (Note: the rationale behind setting these requirements is just).



During these times of saturation, maybe we have to exclude more people from pharmacy school whether they are qualified or not. I would love to be an actress but I have been told that I am not the right weight, height, or skin color to make it, so I moved on and developed my brain so that I could excel in another sector. It might hurt someone's feelings to be rejected, but it helps to build character. You seem to want to see the job market as an idealistic place where there is room for all of us, but the sad fact is that in any given society there will be stratification based on wealth and education and there are a limited number of job opportunities. There are other jobs out there that people should explore instead of flooding this field, especially if there is still time for students to change their course. I still think a GPA under 3.0 is poor whether baseline or not. I know biochemistry, mathematics and physics majors who managed to graduate with honors so why is a 3.0 too much to ask for? If an applicant really wants to attend pharmacy school and they perform poorly in a class, then he/she should get tutoring and retake the class for a higher grade.
I think most admission committees can discern which applicants had a more difficult course load based on the subject being studied and background of the institution the student attended. A biochemical engineering major with a 3.4 GPA is just as attractive as a sociology major with a 3.9 GPA as long as both applicants received good grades in their prerequisite courses, a competitive PCAT score, and satisfied the other requirements. If people want a good-paying and stable job, they should be prepared to work hard and jump over every barrier presented to them.

I am in the process of writing a letter to the proper authorities about this issue, because I do feel strongly about this. I have invested so many years of my life into pursuing pharmacy and it would cause me a great deal of pain to come out of pharmacy school unemployed and hopeless. I may come off as callous, but I believe in facing reality and taking preventative measures when necessary.


Reading this post of yours makes me realize that you do not read and examine my arguments and reasoning carefully. Thus you do not understand what I say, misunderstand me completely, and imagine things I did not even say. You seems to be arguing more for your benefits than for a just and fair admission process for ALL which is the thing I want to see.

I already addressed and answered all those issues you just brought up and more. You only have to go back to my posts above and reread it carefully, only then argue. Please. There is no point for me to answer or argue over those things again.

As for your"saturation" problem, bachelor degree or not bachelor degree does not change a thing. You wanna write to "proper authorities" ?? I already told you to start to go and tell it to the ACPE. Regardless, in my humble opinion, if you keep an open mind and eye out and proper networking, you will not have any problem finding a job with competitive pay after passing the NAPLEX now or in the future.

Anyway, you seem to set on doing whatever you want to do no matter what I say. So no point for me to say anything anymore. Please go ahead to get a bachelor degree just for pharmacy school admission and apply to the pharmacy schools that are requiring a bachelor degree for their admission, then go there for your pharmacy education. Others like me who do not like to waste any time will go to other schools that do not (though it does not matter to me anymore). Each to their own !! :)
 
Last edited:
Pharmerjohn,

I will say the same things to you that I've just said above in my reply to HobbitJane. If you get it, you get it !! As of right now, you are way of your base bro:)

Peace :)


You make it seem as though everyone here agrees with you and that I haven’t read a single one of the responses. I’m not sure if you’re so biased in your opinion that you couldn’t see the truth in front of your eyes or you just choose to ignore them, but neither of your assumptions are true. First, the poll is split (not everyone agrees with you!) and leaning in my favor, in fact! Second, I’ve read every single post and responded to most with a defense along with a solid reason for my position. I’ve outlined several reasons why I am for the requirement of a bachelor’s degree, and not a single person who is against the requirement of a bachelor’s challenged those reasons. I welcome the challenge and am absolutely okay with the fact that there will be people (like you) who choose disagree with me. We can agree to disagree, and that’s absolutely fine with me. However, don’t let your ego and self-righteousness get in the way and come off as though everyone agrees with you – it’s simply not the case.

Please come up with a logical rebuttal for my previous response to you if you’re inclined. If not, my conviction for the bachelor’s requirement stands unless otherwise challenged.



I agree it should be fair, and requiring a bachelor’s degree does not take away from the fairness. Like I’ve said before, requiring a bachelor’s degree is not simply “for the sake of barriers,” as one can learn and take away a lot that could apply to the field of pharmacy by gaining a bachelor’s degree. Furthermore, my reason for this was to put the PharmD up to the level of requirements as other doctorate degrees. Note that ramizlol’s post is evidence that my proposal will work in causing people to weigh a PharmD versus other doctorate degrees. S/he said, “I am going into pharmacy because it is only 6 years path. If it became 8 years, I will go into med without any hesitation.” Right after I posted my reason, I can already find evidence in the same thread showing how it would work! Bachelor’s degree requirement, it reads: Pharmacy Saturation Mitigation Mechanism.



This is what we are currently having, and it’s not working! People with abysmal GPA with only pre-reqs are getting accepted left and right. You can’t say this doesn’t add to the saturation! Furthermore, no one is disagreeing with requiring the re-reqs, I’m just proposing the requirement of a bachelor’s on top of it. Bringing this up is just another digression without getting to the real meat of our discussion.



Again, no one is disagreeing with the PCAT requirement. However, I will say that it shouldn’t be “the most important,” due to the fact that it’s only PART OF the requirements (like a bachelor’s degree should be). In fact, there are several published research studies that show there are no correlations between performance on standardized exams and the quality of students. I mentioned that to point out the fallacy in your reasoning, despite the fact that it has little to do with our main topic of discussion: The requirement of a bachelor’s degree for matriculation into pharmacy school. Furthermore, you mentioned you did well on the PCAT before, so I’m guessing this is probably a reason why you’re a strong proponent of the PCAT being “the most important” criteria for accepting students into pharmacy school.



Are you kidding me?!?! 2.0-2.5 and no bachelor’s?!?! Are you trying to kill the profession by wanting to take on 2.0-2.5 and no bachelor’s? Seriously? This is the most appalling idea you’ve thrown out up to this point!



You’re funny. You want a 2.0-2.5 standard with no bachelor’s, and you want to talk “scientific.” You must understand that we’re not talking about any aspect of science here. In fact, we’re mostly talking about education – an arguably non-science field. So let’s not pretend like we’re discussing the pharmacokinetic of drugs or how to put a man on Mars.

Nonetheless, in rebuttal to your claim that there’s no scientific evidence supporting that a bachelor’s degree predicts success in pharmacy school. I would like to point out that standardize exams have been shown to no be a good predictor of student performance in college, should that be thrown out as well? Of course not, because you’re a strong proponent of the PCAT. This invalidates your statement that a bachelor’s is not required simply because there’s no evidence that it’s a predictor of student performance. This reasoning is fallacious because it implies the idea that if there’s not evidence for something, then it must not be beneficial or valid. That’s absolutely false and illogical reasoning.

In terms of evidence, I’d like to point out the fact that many people in this very thread have pointed out that they have much to gain from earning a bachelor’s degree and that they’re different and better due to their completion of their bachelor’s degrees. This is a strong evidence to push for the requirement of a bachelor’s in my opinion.



No one said all bachelor’s have to be created equal! Quit trying to argue a point that was never up for discussion in the first place. In any case, I’ve already provided a rebuttal for this in my previous post (please re-read for more details). That is, students’ performance on the pre-reqs along with the bachelor’s degree will be the equalizer for differences among bachelor’s degrees. I don’t care if they got a bachelor’s in Underwater Basket Weaving, if they also got 4.0 in their science pre-reqs and 80%ile+ PCAT, then what does it matter? In addition to this, many people have gotten into medical school with bachelor’s in non-science fields – it made no difference because they got good grades in the science pre-reqs and got competitive MCAT composite.

In support to my reasons above, I’d like to point out that people have said they’ve matured and have much to gain from acquiring their bachelor’s (in this very thread) despite the fact that they may have all had different majors. What does this mean? This means that the takeaway and the benefit of obtaining a bachelor’s is still there regardless of what they got their bachelor’s in.

The above reasons should put an end to your diatribe regarding the idea that not all bachelor’s are created equal.



Those reasons have been rebutted and flaws have been pointed out. Therefore, I cannot agree with you on not requiring a bachelor’s degree. I still stand behind my original position regarding the requirement of a bachelor’s for pharmacy school.



I’ve taken a few upper-division courses that I thought were highly beneficial to me, as they taught me how to deal with different types of people. I also had a keen interest in philosophy and logic, so I’ve benefitted from those courses as well. I use all those things I’ve learned when I work in the pharmacy setting as well as in everyday life. I’ve also done research as part of my undergrad requirement, and that experience helped me understand and make sense of pharmaceutical research that I run across. Therefore, I disagree with your assessment regarding them being “never used or relevant to the study or practice of pharmacy.”



Please note that your anecdote above points to the fact that they acquire a bachelor’s degree despite getting an MD. Why not require the same for pharmacy?



I disagree. Please provide evidence if you’re going to make this claim.



I admit that I AM arguing to my benefit! However, not for the reason that you’re assuming though. I like the pharmacy profession and I want it to thrive, so it would be to my benefit (and all of us) if it does thrive by not being too saturated. I want people to enter the profession for the right reason and with the qualifications that would push the profession in the right direction. So you’re right, it is to my benefit. If you’re thinking I’m arguing for a bachelor’s because I have one, then that just makes no sense. It makes no difference to me at this point, as I’ve already been accepted to my top choice a while back. The benefit I’m seeking is down the line… 5, 10, 20 years from now. The benefit is seeing the profession being respected for what it is and not being overly saturated to its detriment.



“Hmmm…” is not a rebuttal and serves no purpose in a discussion. Please try again if you’re so adamant about not requiring a bachelor’s degree.

To answer your question, they were impressed that we knew what we wanted to do and got a bachelor’s prior to applying (I actually spoke to several pharmacy students who got masters). They got their masters because they weren’t sure what to do prior to finding their passion in pharmacy (completely understandable). As for requiring master degrees as a minimum for pharmacy school… What does that have to do with anything? I see what you’re trying to do, but the logic doesn’t flow. No doctorate program requires master or higher degrees for matriculation, while bachelor’s degrees are indeed required for many doctorate programs. Furthermore, I have already rebutted this idea in my previous post, so unless you can come up with a response to my rebuttal, it’s has no value being brought up again.



You are absolutely incorrect! The MD students get master degrees ONLY because they don’t have the competitive GPA and MCAT to make it into extremely competitive MD schools. The DO students often just retake their classes and use grades replacement to increase their chances, hence, they often do not get master degrees if they want to do DO. Master degrees were NEVER required for medical school, so please don’t try to twist the truth to make your argument sound credible. I’m sorry to say, but this is a weak and poorly structured argument founded upon an incorrect assumption as I have pointed out, so it doesn’t hold any water.

Oh, one last thing: Please save your sarcasms, as they’ll make more of an impact when you actually have a solid reason to support your case.
 
Pharmerjohn,

I will say the same things to you that I've just said above in my reply to HobbitJane. If you get it, you get it !! As of right now, you are way of your base bro:)

Peace :)

Alas, I’ll take this as a sign that you’re conceding due to your inability to defend your claims from my rebuttals, along with your lack of valid rebuttals to my claims outlined above. Well… it’s been quite amicable and a pleasure to debate the issue. Thanks for being respectful throughout despite our differences in opinion with regards to the topic of discussion. You may think whatever you wish; however, I stand firm with my take on this issue and remain open to discuss the issue further with you or anyone on the forum in a claims/rebuttals manner (similar to how most formal debates are carried out – I have experience with this thanks to the opportunity afforded by my university).

In response to your other post, it’s not that I “misunderstand [you] completely” or “do not read and examine [your] arguments and reasoning carefully.” The ideas you shared are not all that complex, so I (and I’m sure HobbitJane as well) completely understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. However, you cannot ask me to accept your ideas simply because you claim it is so. I provided rebuttals to your claims, so unless you’re able to justify your reasons or find faults in my rebuttals, I cannot blindly accept your claims and agree with you. Such is the nature of a debate…

In any case, it’s been nice! :)
 
I believe a requirement of a bachelor's is where it is headed
 
Alas, I’ll take this as a sign that you’re conceding due to your inability to defend your claims from my rebuttals, along with your lack of valid rebuttals to my claims outlined above. Well… it’s been quite amicable and a pleasure to debate the issue. Thanks for being respectful throughout despite our differences in opinion with regards to the topic of discussion. You may think whatever you wish; however, I stand firm with my take on this issue and remain open to discuss the issue further with you or anyone on the forum in a claims/rebuttals manner (similar to how most formal debates are carried out – I have experience with this thanks to the opportunity afforded by my university).

In response to your other post, it’s not that I “misunderstand [you] completely” or “do not read and examine [your] arguments and reasoning carefully.” The ideas you shared are not all that complex, so I (and I’m sure HobbitJane as well) completely understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. However, you cannot ask me to accept your ideas simply because you claim it is so. I provided rebuttals to your claims, so unless you’re able to justify your reasons or find faults in my rebuttals, I cannot blindly accept your claims and agree with you. Such is the nature of a debate…

In any case, it’s been nice! :)



LOL :)


You are being respectful ?? lol :)

I think more professional jobs should follow pharmacies path. With how completely bullcrap science degrees are; it really wouldn't make a difference honestly. ALso personally i dont think it's the nonbachelors degree students clogging up the market. It's the million new schools that open that accept anyone with a 2.5 gpa and 60% pcat. Regardless of what education they have.

well said. Very well said.


And I'm willing to bet most of those people only have pre-reqs. No bachelor's! Surprised?

My first impression after skimming your first paragraph was that I wasn’t sure if you’re trolling or being serious. After reading the rest of your post along with your responses to “Superman,” I came to realize that you’re being serious. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but if you were to post what you said above in the pre-Allopathic or pre-Osteopathic forums, you’ll be getting some serious flak and accused of trolling just for bringing it up the idea that only 90 college credits are all that’s needed for medical school and a bachelor’s is not required. To your credit, a person can TRY to apply with 90 credits including pre-requisites, but that’s no different than taking a wad of cash and setting it aflame. Heck, you can probably apply with 1 credit if you’re so inclined on throwing cash away. However, if you were to have ANY chance whatsoever, you’ll need a bachelor’s degree (except in extremely rare circumstances – 4.0 at Harvard with 44MCAT, LOR from a Nobel laureate, or you donated millions to the school). In fact, most medical schools in the U.S. require a bachelor’s degree to matriculate (Caribbean or international schools are not the same as the U.S. – many who go to schools outside of the U.S. have serious trouble getting U.S. residency or passing the USMLE/COMPLEX). Note that the requirement to apply is different than the requirement to matriculate – most school put the minimum to apply, but if you do the minimum, you won’t be getting any secondaries. Also note that my question in the original post specifically refers to the requirement to matriculate, not to apply. If you’re still in doubt, see the sources below.

A few sources (use the search function):
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/som/admissions/md/application_process/prerequisites_requirements.html
http://www.medicine.virginia.edu/education/medical-students/admissions/admissions-cycle/acceptance.html
http://www.studentdoctor.net/2010/01/medical-school-101-what-medical-school-is-really-like/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/to-med-school-without-bachelors.716702/



I had a strong case built above regarding the saturation and the fact that newer schools are accepting people with abysmal stats with only pre-reqs. I also strengthened my case by implying that a PharmD is a doctorate degree and should require a bachelor’s degree prior to obtaining it. Unless you have a better counter-argument, I suggest you drop the useless ad hominem assaults and come up with a better response. Furthermore, no one’s saying that we require Masters or PhDs to enter the medical field, and no one ever said it has to be that way. Your extrapolation is incorrect and has no added value to your fallacious reasoning regarding the direction that higher education is heading.



I’m with you on this so far, but how do you get more “qualified” candidates who have a genuine interest in the profession? The requirement of a bachelor’s degree, competitive PCAT composite, along with good extra-curricular, perhaps? Geeze… that what I said!



The PCAT is only 1 test. It’s hardly a good indicator for how competent someone will be in school or how dedicated someone is to the profession. I agree that there should be some standard for PCAT scores, and it would be a step in the right direction to mitigate the saturation issue. However, it’s by no means a replacement for academic performance in school or other requirements (like a bachelor’s) that could make the candidate more well-rounded. As for the NAPLEX, it’s funny how you said too much time and money are spent for education, yet you want to let someone go through pharmacy school and take on $200k in debt to eventually not pass the NAPLEX! That’s beyond cruel!!! Why not make the requirements higher and slightly more lengthy (It’s a bachelor’s not a PhD, for goodness sake!) so that those dedicated will get in, pass the NAPLEX and be able to find a job to pay off their student loans.



Wrong! I’m not disagreeing with what you said above with regards to making the requirements higher prior to matriculating in pharmacy school, the real major disagreement we have is the need for a bachelor’s. So far, you’re quite keen and not requiring it to benefit students who don’t have one like yourself. I tried putting myself in your shoes, and I understand where you’re coming from. It’s a tough situation… However, you haven’t provided any other solid arguments as to why we should not require a bachelor’s degree. I still stand behind my reason for requiring a bachelor’s, as it will help mitigate the saturation problem we are currently experiencing. It’s just a bachelor’s degree! It’s not like your have to give up a body part*. Just another 2 years of upper-division courses (1 if you’re really dedicated), so I only see it benefitting the profession.

*A thread on the medical forum actually asked about sacrificing a body part (a testicle, to be more specific) to get accepted.

Man, you and oldstock are like Shaq and Kobe, you guys are just on the wrong side of everything here.

While I like the idea of requiring a bachelor's degree, that isn't the solution to the problem that you're bringing up. The same amount of students will matriculate every year as long as the seats are available. Schools have to fill the seats, and I'm sure more than 500+ apply to most pharmacy schools anyways.

That isn't the solution to solving the "saturation" problem. In fact, there isn't a single solution to anything.

And if you're worried about not finding a job after you graduate, you should start now on thinking of the next big thing in pharmacy. If you find that, you'll have more than enough money to get you around.

F*** Kobe and the Lakers, I <3 James Harden
Dude, you need to work on your reading like you need to work on them free-throws! Lol I already said above that it’s not the solution, but is a step in the right direction.

I agree that it’s the number of seats that allow students to matriculate. Hence, if we have higher standards (like requiring a bachelor’s degree), then fewer people will be able to meet those standards or will opt for a different career path because they feel there are other options out there. With fewer students applying (except for the truly dedicated ones), it will discourage schools from popping up like weeds in the spring time.

Ya, while I’m trying to figure out "the next big thing," I’ll also grow a foot and gain 100 lbs of muscles to be the next Dwight Howard.



Just for the record, I was not even wanting to response to your posts until you quoted me and condescended on me and other people in the first place.

Your arguments are weak, and it is just that you do not see it. Also I seriously doubt your comprehension ability. You are clearly arguing just for your own benefits in the admission process now and for the jobs that you are worrying that someone who is better or more qualified than you will take away from you in the future. So stop pretending like you are arguing for the betterment of the whole profession and/or the benefits and fairness for all.

I just know when to stop arguing w you. In this case I would be a fool for continuing to argue. Dwight was right that he was way smarter than me in this regard !! :)

But, do not assume or take it as a sign of anything. You and HobbitJane like to imagine things that are not there, things that I did not even say. I bet you guys have been smoking weeds or something ?? :)

As I said you are already way off your base brotha :)
 
Last edited:
So the "everyone who applies to a Pharm.D program needs a Bachelor's degree" argument has one tiny/glaring flaw depending on who you ask. Your proposal would require a BS/BA for each applicant but there is no way to standardize the degree itself. For example: the BA in Art History is not equivalent to the BS in Biochemistry and yet both of those degrees would satisfy the proposed matriculation requirement. Another example: the BS in Biology from UWashington is not equivalent to the BS in Biology from Strayer online. What is your solution to those problems? I'm of the opinion that the vast number of available programs and subsequent new grad numbers coupled with the older generation's later retirement age is the number one culprit for the rising unemployment statistics in pharmacy right now. Also, we seem to have a growing number of Pharm.D students who are not fulfilling their intern hours or working during the standard school year. Why is that happening? Are students being encouraged to sit around and study constantly instead of networking and making long-term connections in their chosen career field? I like the idea of a baseline PCAT score requirement because it would force the Art History major and the Biochemistry major to take responsibility for the same level of understanding in the subsections rather than allowing less stringent academic majors to exhibit a stellar GPA and a sub-par PCAT and still be selected for interviews/acceptance.


Man, you and oldstock are like Shaq and Kobe, you guys are just on the wrong side of everything here.

While I like the idea of requiring a bachelor's degree, that isn't the solution to the problem that you're bringing up. The same amount of students will matriculate every year as long as the seats are available. Schools have to fill the seats, and I'm sure more than 500+ apply to most pharmacy schools anyways.

That isn't the solution to solving the "saturation" problem. In fact, there isn't a single solution to anything.

And if you're worried about not finding a job after you graduate, you should start now on thinking of the next big thing in pharmacy. If you find that, you'll have more than enough money to get you around.

F*** Kobe and the Lakers, I <3 James Harden

Just because I didn't provide a solution doesn't make my original statements wrong. Requiring a Bachelor's degree won't do anything. As they say, a Bachelor's degree is the new High School Diploma.

And no, the Bachelor's degree does not give an MD prestige. Physicians have always been respected professionals in our society


I don't think that saturation is directly affected by the fact that a bachelor's degree is not required for the profession. I would say that the biggest problem in pharmacy, like so many others have mentioned, is the very low standards that many of the pharmacy schools across the nation have. If you're a student coming out of high school and you see an option where you can simply pass basic biology and chemistry classes, take a standardized test and earn a score LOWER THAN THE AVERAGE (read: <50th percentile) person taking that test, and FOUR YEARS LATER earn >$100k a year why would you not do that!?

That said, I don't think that the degree of saturation is as bad as people make it out to be. If you are someone coming into this profession expecting an easy road to a six-figure salary who doesn't put the required extra work in.. you'll likely have problems. Just as in any other profession you have to make the employer want you as an employee over other applicants. IF you are a student who is making good grades in under grad and pharmacy school and networking properly you shouldn't have trouble finding a job. You may not be able to find your dream job of 7-3 M-F in the location of your choosing, but if you are flexible you WILL find a good job.





kudos to you guys !! :)
 
Last edited:
LOL
You are being respectful ?? lol

Yes, I was. :) Although to be fair, I admit my initial response to you came across as a bit sarcastic, but that was only intended to make a point and not to offend. However, due to the nature of the internet, sarcasms can be misconstrued and can be taken as offensive. Hence, I changed the tone of my responses soon after to avoid offending you, in hope that you could see the reasoning behind my stance rather than being consumed by anger. I’m not here to start flame wars, but am here to challenge an idea.

Just for the record, I was not even wanting to response to your posts until you quoted me and condescended on me and other people in the first place.

What other people? No one got emotional except you, and only my response to you had a hint of sarcasm, but I stopped the sarcasm soon after! Quit making stuff up!

Your arguments are weak, and it is just that you do not see it. Also I seriously doubt your comprehension ability. You are clearly arguing just for your own benefits in the admission process now and for the jobs that you are worrying that someone who is better or more qualified than you will take away from you in the future. So stop pretending like you are arguing for the betterment of the whole profession and/or the benefits and fairness for all.
I just know when to stop arguing w you. In this case I would be a fool for continuing to argue. Dwight was right that he was way smarter than me in this regard !!

First, you are definitely throwing a lot of stones in this post. I already told you it doesn’t matter to me regarding the admission process, since I already got into my top choice. I have no ulterior motives besides trying to improve the profession. Secondly, if you feel my arguments are weak, then come up with a rebuttal and prove me wrong! It should be easy, given how “weak” my arguments are. Lastly, it seems like you’re letting your emotions get the best of you. Please calm down!

But, do not assume or take it as a sign of anything. You and HobbitJane like to imagine things that are not there, things that I did not even say. I bet you guys have been smoking weeds or something ??
As I said you are already way off your base brotha

As for your random accusation of me and HobbitJane smoking cannabis simply because we don’t agree with you... Tsk tsk! No need to fling mud, now. As the old saying goes, “If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em!” You’re welcomed to agree with us. :)
 
LOL :)


You are being respectful ?? lol :)

Just for the record, I was not even wanting to response to your posts until you quoted me and condescended on me and other people in the first place.

Your arguments are weak, and it is just that you do not see it. Also I seriously doubt your comprehension ability. You are clearly arguing just for your own benefits in the admission process now and for the jobs that you are worrying that someone who is better or more qualified than you will take away from you in the future. So stop pretending like you are arguing for the betterment of the whole profession and/or the benefits and fairness for all.

I just know when to stop arguing w you. In this case I would be a fool for continuing to argue. Dwight was right that he was way smarter than me in this regard !! :)

But, do not assume or take it as a sign of anything. You and HobbitJane like to imagine things that are not there, things that I did not even say. I bet you guys have been smoking weeds or something ?? :)

As I said you are already way off your base brotha :)

I fail to see why you cannot see any merit in their arguments. The ACPE needs to step up their game and raise the bar as far as matriculating students are concerned. If you skim the PharmCAS school statistics page some of the schools recruit students with a sub 3.0 GPA and a less than 50th percentile PCAT composite. If the standards aren't raised by many of the schools the stratification of schools that happened in law are going to happen in pharmacy. Many of the newer schools will begin to be labeled, correctly, as tier 2 schools. These are the schools that will have tougher times getting rotations for their students, and they will not have the prestige to bring internships to their students. Whether or not we do something now or later will mitigate some of the damage that will be done to students who enter these programs and rack up debt expecting a job in four years because if we don't market forces WILL act on the students who will not be able to distinguish themselves by getting a residency (which will be dependent on the prestige and connections of your school) and that will hurt a lot of incoming students.

This idea that you can walk into a pharmacy school, earn your degree and get a NAPLEX certification as a ticket to wild riches needs to end because soon it won't be true, and it's going to hurt a lot of people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I fail to see why you cannot see any merit in their arguments. The ACPE needs to step up their game and raise the bar as far as matriculating students are concerned. If you skim the PharmCAS school statistics page some of the schools recruit students with a sub 3.0 GPA and a less than 50th percentile PCAT composite. If the standards aren't raised by many of the schools the stratification of schools that happened in law are going to happen in pharmacy. Many of the newer schools will begin to be labeled, correctly, as tier 2 schools. These are the schools that will have tougher times getting rotations for their students, and they will not have the prestige to bring internships to their students. Whether or not we do something now or later will mitigate some of the damage that will be done to students who enter these programs and rack up debt expecting a job in four years because if we don't market forces WILL act on the students who will not be able to distinguish themselves by getting a residency (which will be dependent on the prestige and connections of your school) and that will hurt a lot of incoming students.

This idea that you can walk into a pharmacy school, earn your degree and get a NAPLEX certification as a ticket to wild riches needs to end because soon it won't be true, and it's going to hurt a lot of people.


Again, prob you did not read my arguments in my many posts here as of why we should not require a bachelor degree for pharmacy school admission. You can go back to read. But I could give you some points to reflect on.

First off, not all doctorate degrees are created equal. Oftentimes, many like to compare PharmD or MD degrees to a PhD. In the academic world, doctor of medicine, doctor of dentistry/doctor of dental medicine, doctor of pharmacy, etc are classified as PROFESSIONAL doctor degrees. In general, there is no thesis to defend, no research to do for the thesis for those professional doctor degrees. To obtain the professional degrees here (MD, DDS/DMD, PharmD, etc.), a student has to attend classes, take and pass regular exams and rotations/internships. Just like in undergraduate.

A doctorate is an academic degree or professional degree that, in most countries, qualifies the holder to teach at the university level in the specific field of his or her degree, or to work in a specific profession. While the structure of U.S. doctoral programs is more formal and complex than in some other systems, the research doctorate is not awarded for the preliminary advanced study that leads to doctoral candidacy, but rather for successfully completing and defending the independent research presented in the form of the doctoral dissertation (thesis). Several first-professional degrees use the term “doctor” in their title, such as the Juris Doctor and the US version of the Doctor of Medicine, but these degrees do not universally contain an independent research component or always require a dissertation (thesis) and should not be confused with Ph.D./D.Phil. degrees or other research doctorates.[1] In fact, many universities offer Ph.D./D.Phil. followed by a professional doctorate degree or joint Ph.D./D.Phil. with the professional degree (most often Ph.D. work comes sequential to the professional degree): e.g. Ph.D./D.Phil. in law after J.D. or equivalent[2][3][4][5] in physical therapy after DPT,[6][7] in pharmacy after DPharm.[8][9] Often such professional degrees are referred to as entry level doctorate program[10][11][12] and Ph.D. as post-professional doctorate.[7]

In some countries, the highest degree in a given field is called a terminal degree, although this is by no means universal (the term is not in general use in the UK, for example), and practice varies from country to country.

The term doctorate comes from the Latin docere, meaning "to teach."

The "licentiate" degree shortened from the full Latin title licentia docendi, means "teaching licence".[13]

*Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate

This is in contrast to RESEARCH doctor degrees, where the opposite holds true: you have to come up with an original research thesis to research for independently and work under the guidance/advice of a thesis adviser/professor, when done, you then have to defend your thesis in front of a thesis committee with no cutoff point or limit to the questions they can ask you; you will not walk out there and have your (research) doctor degree until they feel you know enough in your field and successfully defend your doctorate thesis. The thesis committee could be comprised of other research doctorates from other schools and disciplines. To compare the admission requirements for PROFESSIONAL doctor programs to those for research doctorate programs is silly, as they are not equivalent.

Many also like to compare the admission requirements for pharmacy schools to those of other professional, esp. medical schools. Let's talk about the requirements for medical school admission. There are many countries in the world, and we can look at just the Western world if we will (England, France, Germany, etc not just the Carribeans like Pharmerjohn thought of when he heard the world "Western world" :) ), which would consider students for medical school admission right after high school with the only requirement is an entrance exam. For examples,

Admissions
In the United Kingdom students generally begin medical school after secondary education. This contrasts with the US and Canadian (outside Quebec) systems, where a bachelor's degree is required for entry to medical school. Entry to British medical schools is very competitive. Courses last five or six years: two years of pre-clinical training in an academic environment and three years clinical training at a teaching hospital. Medical schools and teaching hospitals are closely integrated. The course of study is extended to six years if an intercalated degree is taken in a related subject.
*Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_school_in_the_United_Kingdom


France
Main article: Medical school in France
Medical studies in France are organized as follow:

Right after graduating from High School with a Baccalaureat, any student can register at a university of medicine (there are about 30 of them throughout the country). At the end of first year, an internal ranking examination takes place in each of these universities in order to implement the numerus clausus. First year consists mainly of theoretical classes such as biophysics and biochemistry, anatomy, ethics or histology. Passing first year is commonly considered as challenging and requires hard and continuous work. Each student can only try twice. For example, the Université René Descartes welcomes about 2000 students in first year and only 300 after numerus clausus.

Germany
See also: List of medical schools in Germany


The University of Freiburg Faculty of Medicine
In Germany, admission to medical schools is currently administered jointly by the Stiftung für Hochschulzulassung (SfH), a centralized federal organization, and the universities themselves. The most important criterion for admission is the Numerus clausus, the final GPA scored by the applicant on the Abitur (highest secondary school diploma). However, in light of the recent gain in influence of medical schools in regards to applicant selection, additional criteria are being used to select students for admission. These criteria vary among medical faculties and the final Abitur GPA is always a core indicator and strongly influences admission. Admission remains highly competitive. A very small number of slots per semester are reserved for selected applicants which already hold a university degree (Zweitstudium) and for medical officer candidates (Sanitätsoffizieranwärter).
*Source: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_school#Germany (there are more countries if you click on that link to view the admission requirements for medical schools in those countries.)

You can see there in England, France, and Germany, gaining entry to or obtaining a seat in their medical schools is extremely competitive even though they do not require a bachelor degree (they only require a high school diploma and an entrance exam, a very difficult one :) ). They do not seem to have any problem to produce "quality" doctors without a bachelor degree! Because, there is no REAL need of a bachelor degree for the study of medicine or pharmacy or dentistry! Do not tell me now that their medical doctors are not as "rounded" as ours or lack of "life experience" or not as "qualified" as our doctors or do not care for patients or less " humane" as ours! LOL :)

The bachelor degree requirement, here in this light, is only a barrier to admission for the sake of barrier as it is not needed or relevant to medical, pharmacy, dentistry or other health profession education around the world! In fact, even in the US, many medical schools only require 90 credits from an accredited college or university and a MCAT score for a student's application to be considered for admission. (I know people will say that rarely a person without a bachelor degree can get in medical schools, in reality there are many students without a bachelor degree got accepted to medical schools, e.g. my cousin, but anyhow that is not even the point as a bachelor degree is not OFFICIALLY required for admission by many US medical schools).

Thus I do not see why a bachelor degree would enhance anything in pharmacy admission or relevant to one's pharmacy education. For God's sake, I think we should find a way to standardize the whole admission process to ensure a consistent, just, and fair admission process and standards for all. And we are no where near that now. There is no way to standardize or compare the quality of a bachelor from one discipline to the next, let alone to compare bachelors from different schools which all differs in academic standards. Adding a bachelor degree to the requirement for pharmacy schools only to add more incomparable variables to the equation, and further to make the admission and selection standards and process more complex and difficult. The PCAT and GPA will do the job just fine and even better than a bachelor requirement here! As Dwight already said in his post, adding a bachelor degree requirement for pharmacy school admission is not the solution to solving the saturation problem !! (kudos to him for saying it so well :) )

As for the argument that a bachelor degree could add "roundness" or "academic experience", those are such vague and subjective terms with no accurate way to quantify and compare those "roundness"/"academic experience" of one applicants to those of other applicants for admission. The admission decision based on this will be solely the opinions of one school/persons and might differ from the admission decision/opinions from another school/persons. Thus no way it is fair or just.

Not officially requiring a bachelor degree for admission would give the schools and the students many advantages. The schools have more opportunities and flexibility to identify students with great potentials, who will not need the help of a bachelor degree to be "more mature", "more rounded", or "gaining more college experience" to accelerate their professional study and maximize their service lifetime. Time is a limited resource and the professional knowledge and training are already enormous for a person to absorb in their limited lifetime. This also helps students to cut short the time and money spent in schools. Everyone wins here !! Again, as you have already seen, this is the practice of many medical schools around the world, even in the US.

The problem you have pointed out, "stratification", or "saturation" in the words of Pharmerjohn is really one of the consequences of too many pharmacy schools instead. The accreditation body, ACPE, has allowed and approved too many pharmacy schools. More schools = more seats. And those schools want to fill those seats. That is the culprit that lowers the admission standards for pharmacy schools!

Requiring a bachelor degree will NOT help to improve the quality of pharmacy school admission. Let's say we have a bachelor degree requirement in place as absolute mandatory condition for pharmacy school admission, thus all the pharmacy school applicants now have a bachelor degree. With those many pharmacy schools being already open and MORE schools opening up in the future, sub-par pharmacy school applicants still got accepted with sub-par GPA (e.g. < or = 3.0) and sub-par PCAT score (e.g. < or = 50 percentile) because those schools will have to fill ALL those seats!

I would probably support the requirement of a bachelor degree for pharmacy admission only in the case that the Doctor of Pharmacy Degree now is only awarded upon successfully defending a (independently original research?) thesis judged by a doctorate panel/thesis committee. From my personal knowledge, my father was a medical doctor educated by the French system. (He has retired now). He entered 1st year of medical school WITHOUT a bachelor degree and had to pass an exam administered after the 1st year of medical school to progress on, which was designed to select the best qualified students and squeeze out as many students as possible (vs the entrance exam given before you enter with the British medical school system). Others who failed this exam twice would be kicked out of the medical school. He even had to come up with a THESIS and work under the guidance and advice of a thesis advisor/professor and successfully defended it in front of a doctorate thesis committee for his MD degree, just like in the case for a research doctorate degree (e.g. PhD). He was as competent and successful in his professional career as a MD as any other US-trained physicians.

I heard that this was the case for the PharmD degree in the past at many pharmacy schools in the US, which awarded the PharmD degree before the degree became the mandatory and standard degree that ALL pharmacy schools offer upon graduation and to practice as pharmacist after 2001 (?). A candidate for the PharmD degree then had to come up with a (original research ?) thesis independently and successfully defend it before a thesis committee in order to receive the degree. The PharmDs, then, would mostly work and function as clinical pharmacists(?) and/or academia. The Bachelor degree of Pharmacy were considered sufficient for one to practice as a pharmacist or even as clinical pharmacist.

The professional doctor degrees of medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, etc. in this light, are more of an extension of a bachelor degree or master degree. Yes the tests are harder, and there are more things to study for. But there is, in general, still no thesis required to research and/or defend for a PharmD or MD or DDS/DMD degree vs the case of research doctorate degree, e.g. PhD degree.

This is like opening up another case of worms here. My mother is a RPh, still practicing now. She graduated pharmacy school with only a bachelor degree in pharmacy. That did not prevent her from being respected by her colleagues, medical doctors, or nurses. That did not prevent her from making mid $100K per annum.

Again I say, the problem you are all worrying about less qualified (subpar GPA and PCAT) candidates got in pharmacy schools then earn (or fail to) pharmacy degree then subsequently pass (or not pass) the NAPLEx, potential troubles about rotation placement and residency, saturation of pharmacist job market, etc. are actually caused by more and more pharmacy schools opening up, thus would cause admission standards for pharmacy schools to drop lower to let in more people to fill the available seats.

The solution is, in my humble opinion, is to petition to pharmacy organization and bodies, which are responsible for pharmacy education such ACPE and AACP, to stop the flood of new schools and tighten the standards for pharmacy school accreditation. That would stop the increasing supply of available seats in pharmacy schools, thus raise the quality of admission and admitted students as the competition is getting tougher.

As of now, I think that the NAPLEX is sufficient to squeeze out weak pharmacy graduates, i.e. once you pass the NAPLEX, you are qualified to practice pharmacy as a pharmacist. But then again, we can raise the bar on the board exam, the NAPLEX, if we need to squeeze out more people. That would be the fairest way to distinguish yourself as the test is standardized and required for every pharmacy graduate who wants to practice as a pharmacist (as opposed to the quality of one's pharmacy education varying from one school to the next. The same could be said about the quality of pharmacy residency).

The bachelor degree requirement is not a solution to those problems or needed or relevant to one's pharmacy education. In addition, schools will admit subpar students anyway if they still have seats to fill even a bachelor degree is required. This requirement is only encouraging those subpar students to sit longer in college and apply and eventually get admitted.

The problems you are all worrying about will not go away with a bachelor degree as requirement for admission unless you are addressing the root of the problems, which is the great and increasing supply of seats for pharmacy school admission, i.e. the problem of more and more school opening up.

Again, I recommend everyone to do more research before forming their arguments for or against this bachelor requirement for pharmacy school admission. As of right now, I am truly and firmly convinced of my position AGAINST the bachelor degree requirement for pharmacy school admission.



*Ask yourself these:

-is a bachelor degree (right now can be in any discipline) relevant to a person's pharmacy education?

-is a bachelor degree's quality uniformed across different disciplines or in comparison of different bachelor degrees (of all kinds) from different schools? How would the quality of a bachelor degree be measured (e.g. against what standards ??) for use in such comparisons?

-how would a bachelor degree be used to compare pharmacy school applicants in a fair and transparent way for everyone?

-what is/are the problem(s) with pharmacy school admission now? what cause(s) problem(s)? what is/are your proposed solution(s) and why?

-what is/are the problem(s) with the pharmacy job market in the future? what cause(s) the problems(s)? what is/are your proposed solution(s) and why?


:)

----


*Note: I found many good ideas and arguments from both sides from this thread below,

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/should-a-bachelor’s-degree-be-required-in-order-to-apply-to-pharmacy-schools.636914/
 
Last edited:
I fail to see why you cannot see any merit in their arguments. The ACPE needs to step up their game and raise the bar as far as matriculating students are concerned. If you skim the PharmCAS school statistics page some of the schools recruit students with a sub 3.0 GPA and a less than 50th percentile PCAT composite. If the standards aren't raised by many of the schools the stratification of schools that happened in law are going to happen in pharmacy. Many of the newer schools will begin to be labeled, correctly, as tier 2 schools. These are the schools that will have tougher times getting rotations for their students, and they will not have the prestige to bring internships to their students. Whether or not we do something now or later will mitigate some of the damage that will be done to students who enter these programs and rack up debt expecting a job in four years because if we don't market forces WILL act on the students who will not be able to distinguish themselves by getting a residency (which will be dependent on the prestige and connections of your school) and that will hurt a lot of incoming students.

This idea that you can walk into a pharmacy school, earn your degree and get a NAPLEX certification as a ticket to wild riches needs to end because soon it won't be true, and it's going to hurt a lot of people.

I absolutely agree!

Oldstock’s thinking is quite parochial in that she only sees the benefit of the few and neglecting the fact that it’s going to result in the detriment of the many (the entire profession and everyone in it). She ignores any arguments or rebuttals that she doesn’t agree with, despite not being able to defend her own thinking. In the mean time, she loves to bring up educations in other countries and compare it with the U.S., despite the fact that the way other countries operate their educational system has little to do with how our country does it. As a result, she’s comparing apples to oranges – it’s a fallacy in her reasoning that she is too stubborn to admit. There are people like her who think quite ass-backwards, yet they are somehow convinced that they got it all right, despite the fact that most people do NOT agree with them. I see this enough in the corporate world that I can tell the end result with this type of logic is never good. This is regressive, not progressive thinking.

Here's an example of her flow of logic:

1. U.S. Pharmacy schools shouldn’t require bachelor’s degrees.
2. Other countries in Europe don’t require it.
3. Therefore, we shouldn’t require it either.

Note that between step 1 and 2 of her logic flowchart above, she’s comparing apples to oranges. This is akin to comparing data from SI units with U.S. customary units without realizing that they are different systems of measurement*. She ignores the fact that we should really be comparing the PharmD degree to other doctorate programs in the U.S. instead of comparing it to programs in other countries. That’s an example of just one fallacy in her reasoning that she doesn’t realize (along with many others that I've pointed out in my previous responses to her). I’m going to close the book on this one and conclude that some people can’t be reasoned with. :)

*NASA crashed a $125 million dollar probe when they tried comparing apples to oranges. We'll do the same to Pharmacy if we reason like oldstock - it simply doesn't work.
 
I absolutely agree!

Oldstock’s thinking is quite parochial in that she only sees the benefit of the few and neglecting the fact that it’s going to result in the detriment of the many (the entire profession and everyone in it). She ignores any arguments or rebuttals that she doesn’t agree with, despite not being able to defend her own thinking. In the mean time, she loves to bring up educations in other countries and compare it with the U.S., despite the fact that the way other countries operate their educational system has little to do with how our country does it. As a result, she’s comparing apples to oranges – it’s a fallacy in her reasoning that she is too stubborn to admit. There are people like her who think quite ass-backwards, yet they are somehow convinced that they got it all right, despite the fact that most people do NOT agree with them. I see this enough in the corporate world that I can tell the end result with this type of logic is never good. This is regressive, not progressive thinking.

I will say this again, you have been condescending on me so many times and even downright insulted me !!


Here's an example of her flow of logic:

1. U.S. Pharmacy schools shouldn’t require bachelor’s degrees.
2. Other countries in Europe don’t require it.
3. Therefore, we shouldn’t require it either.

As I said before, I seriously doubt your comprehension and logic ability. I brought up the medical education around the world to the audience to give them a general perspective, then stated that even many medical schools and pharmacy schools in the US OFFICIALLY do NOT require a bachelor degree for their admission. Obviously many in the higher places do not think like you. If you think the rest of the world is stupid, and only the US is right all the time (and even America is split on this one), you are really fooling yourself or being one and/or living by yourself on an isolated island.

Read again dude !! Seriously if you do not understand what I say, it is not my fault that you are not born with this ability !!

Note that between step 1 and 2 of her logic flowchart above, she’s comparing apples to oranges. This is akin to comparing data from SI units with U.S. customary units without realizing that they are different systems of measurement*. She ignores the fact that we should really be comparing the PharmD degree to other doctorate programs in the U.S. instead of comparing it to programs in other countries. That’s an example of just one fallacy in her reasoning that she doesn’t realize (along with many others that I've pointed out in my previous responses to her). I’m going to close the book on this one and conclude that some people can’t be reasoned with. :)

*NASA crashed a $125 million dollar probe when they tried comparing apples to oranges. We'll do the same to Pharmacy if we reason like oldstock - it simply doesn't work.

That is the flowchart for my logic ?? You really need to go back to school as a freshman or whatever. LOL :)

Did I not mention again and again that many professional degree programs in the US such as medical, dental, and veterinary, pharmacy schools that do officially NOT require a bachelor degree for their admission ?? Did I not compare US pharmacy school admission to that of US medical schools and those of other US doctorate programs such as PhD program ?? Apples to Oranges ?? Everyone think like you there ?? You sound like you are speaking for the whole US of A in general and the pharmacy profession in particular. You are also acting like you are owning this thread. C'mon dude !! I think you truly have multiple problems with your head and eyes. Seriously dude !!

You started the whole thing by first insulting me and Axelz165 then Dwighthoward specifically then now are insulting me again and even NASA in this post of yours. LOL :)

If you said that you are going to close the book on this one or me, do not call my name or quote me again. I admit I am a fool that I am replying to you here again.

"When arguing with fools, don't answer their foolish arguments, or you will become as foolish as they are."
Proverbs 26:4-14 (New Living Translation)
http://www.biblestudytools.com/nlt/proverbs/passage.aspx?q=proverbs 26:4-14

Do not forget to check yourself in with a medical doctor (with or without a bachelor degree). But I bet you will only go with the one who has a bachelor degree. LOL :)

Anyway, stop insulting people or you will force me or someone else to say the words !! very bad words !! :)
 
Last edited:
I will say this again, you have been condescending on me so many times and even downright insulted me !!




As I said before, I seriously doubt your comprehension and logic ability. I brought up the medical education around the world to the audience to give them a general perspective, then stated that even many medical schools and pharmacy schools in the US OFFICIALLY do NOT require a bachelor degree for their admission. Obviously many in the higher places do not think like you. If you think the rest of the world is stupid, and only the US is right all the time (and even America is split on this one), you are really fooling yourself or being one and/or living by yourself on an isolated island.

Read again dude !! Seriously if you do not understand what I say, it is not my fault that you are not born with this ability !!



That is the flowchart for my logic ?? You really need to go back to school as a freshman or whatever. LOL :)

Did I not mention again and again that many professional degree programs in the US such as medical, dental, and veterinary, pharmacy schools that do officially NOT require a bachelor degree for their admission ?? Did I not compare US pharmacy school admission to that of US medical schools and those of other US doctorate programs such as PhD program ?? Apples to Oranges ?? Everyone think like you there ?? You sound like you are speaking for the whole US of A in general and the pharmacy profession in particular. You are also acting like you are owning this thread. C'mon dude !! I think you truly have multiple problems with your head and eyes. Seriously dude !!

You started the whole thing by first insulting me and Axelz165 then Dwighthoward specifically then now are insulting me again and even NASA in this post of yours. LOL :)

If you said that you are going to close the book on this one or me, do not call my name or quote me again. I admit I am a fool that I am replying to you here again.

"When arguing with fools, don't answer their foolish arguments, or you will become as foolish as they are."
Proverbs 26:4-14 (New Living Translation)
http://www.biblestudytools.com/nlt/proverbs/passage.aspx?q=proverbs 26:4-14

Do not forget to check yourself in with a medical doctor (with or without a bachelor degree). But I bet you will only go with the one who has a bachelor degree. LOL :)

Anyway, stop insulting people or you will force me or someone else to say the words !! very bad words !! :)

You are getting WAYYYY too emotional for this topic. Please calm down and take a deep breath, it’s just a discussion on a forum with a bunch of random strangers! No one is out to condescend or insult you, so you gotta quit taking it so personally.

First, I am NOT insulting anyone. I disagree with people on certain ideas, but that’s not the same as insulting. Gosh, I can’t believe I have to explain this… lol You take everything as an insult, no one else is claiming insults but you. Like I said before, dwighthoward was always joking around like the real Dwight Howard (You know, the NBA player). Calling him “Superman” is not an insult, because he jokingly calls himself that! In fact, it’s a compliment.



You are in way over your head and are too confused to know what’s going on. You threw a few stones at me and HobbitJane (and continue to do so), yet you don’t see us screaming and yelling “insults” left and right. I’m done discussing “insults” with you. Take it like an adult and shrug if off! In fact, I think we should agree to disagree on this topic until you can get yourself emotionally stable.

Second, we are talking about U.S. Pharmacy Schools, so let’s not digress and talk about how Germany and France do it! The fact is, when an American student is deciding which professional field to choose, almost none of them are going to think, “Geeze, I wonder how France does it.” Nope! They’re more likely going to think, “I should do Pharmacy instead of Medicine or Dentistry, since Pharmacy doesn’t require a bachelor’s, so it’s the shorter route.” Other countries don’t even come into the picture.

Third, don’t bring the Bible in here and use it to call me a “fool,” simply because I don’t agree with you. It’s ridiculous, and some would even call that blasphemous!

Lastly, use your “very very bad words,” if it’s going to help you stay on topic and come up with good rebuttal for the arguments I provided in my previous post – we’re not a bunch of 5-year-old. Calm down and get to the meat of the discussion, or get lost.
 
Top