Should doctors get paid more?

[medstudent87]

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http://benbrownmd.wordpress.com/2010/06/20/informedconsent/

Discuss.

(Sorry if the article depresses you)

 

[alwaysaangel]

We already had this discussion in premed but for some reason the thread was deleted (I'm guessing because it turned out that the OP was actually just spamming the forum to sell his book).

Anywho, thank goodness for google cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+well"&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari

Some highlights:
-all his numbers are wrong
-he cites useless things but not the things that he uses to draw his conclusions
-he is an arrogant ass who talks down to other professions in his original "article" and throughout the comments section
-he is a PLASTIC SURGEON trying to sell a new book making it all the more hilarious that he is complaining about pay

In conclusion, while his final conclusion may be true (ie primary care physicians are underpaid), his method of getting there is absolutely ludicrous and blatantly ignorant. So in essence, it is a useless, poorly written article that seems to be just a ploy to sell a book (notice the largest link on the right side of the page)

 

[medstudent87]

hah....didn't realize that.

Yet...the article still scares me since I'm gonna be graduating with AT LEAST $250k in debt 🙁

 

[Danlee07]

It still seems unfair and unright that so many people that responded are jaded by doctors who misdiagnosed -- I think this is just projection on the fact that they had to pay for the trip to go there when really it was for the insurance cost.

honestly, I think the whole respect thing is gone so if it were there, people would actually listen to doctors and their parents. then again, people want to eat 30 years of McDonalds and then expect a weeks' treatment for as small of a fee as possible.
and then again, you also have people who are jerks or pushovers that look really pretty on paper that made it to a MD then residency and attending.

 

[cartoondoc]

There are plenty of doctors that earn gigantic incomes. The problem is that some doctors, such as PCPs or pediatricians, do not. The huge cost of training and low reimbursement of certain fields scares doctors away from fields where they are needed most.

 

[Daedra22]

I think it's laughable that they compare a teacher's salary to a physician--physicians choose to work more hours (nobody forced us to choose this career!), and teachers put in a lot more hours than the ones the are paid for. Further, teachers, and most other people, will never have the opportunity to earn as much money as we will. Considering that physicians--primary care or not--tend to make in excess of 100k/year, which is more money than 75% or more people in this country will ever be able to make, I'm not terribly upset by my income earning potential. The debt does concern me, but there are a lot of ways to pay back the debt that not everyone pursues (public service, military, NIH, etc.). I'm more worried about seeing the actual poor people getting paid more.

 

[Laryngophed]

Should docs get paid more? The biased part of me says "Of course!" The answer is I don't know, it would depend on how much society values what docs have to offer. I do think that unless they are explicitly government employees, I'm not sure the government should have such a large part in how much a physician makes. Unfortunately, the government is heavily entwined in the fabric of modern medicine and I don't see anyone being able to put the toothpaste back in the tube, so to speak.

 

[45408]

Some yes, some no.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Should docs get paid more? The biased part of me says "Of course!" The answer is I don't know, it would depend on how much society values what docs have to offer. I do think that unless they are explicitly government employees, I'm not sure the government should have such a large part in how much a physician makes. Unfortunately, the government is heavily entwined in the fabric of modern medicine and I don't see anyone being able to put the toothpaste back in the tube, so to speak.

Well people will b!tch and moan at the slightest hint that we should stop FUTILE treatment on people with essentially ZERO quality of life to contain costs. They'll say no amount of money is worth someone's life. However these same people are usually not willing tp pay a dime for their healthcare and say that doctors are overpaid. So, our services are extremely valuable yet no oe wants to pay for 'em.

 

[Laryngophed]

Well people will b!tch and moan at the slightest hint that we should stop FUTILE treatment on people with essentially ZERO quality of life to contain costs. They'll say no amount of money is worth someone's life. However these same people are usually not willing tp pay a dime for their healthcare and say that doctors are overpaid. So, our services are extremely valuable yet no oe wants to pay for 'em.

That is the second great paradox of medicine. The first being that everyone wants their doctor to be a god in a white coat, but no one seems to be willing to accept that we all suck at what we do starting off and we need practice to learn. No one wants to be in the second group, everybody wants the world renowned doc, but no one is willing to help get to that point. I understand and accept that right, but it does give me pause when we think about the irony of the situation. (I paraphrased that from Complications by Gawande.)

 

[drift]

this is ridiculous.

A PRIMARY-CARE physician makes MORE money than 97% of the American population. Guys, just be happy with what we have, many take it seriously for granted. You have to realize that only 6% of american HOUSEHOLDS make more than 100k in America. The household figure includes both earners of the house. A physician making even 150k - 30k loans/year is still making 120k pre-tax. Thus, even the "lowest-paid" (peds, FP...) are still making more money than 97% of the American population.

The average household income (not personal income, but both earners in the house) is still less than 50k. even the lowest paid physician on average makes more than 3 times that himself, not to mention any wages from his/her partner.

 

[cartoondoc]

I think the inequity is within medicine, as I said. If you have $300K in loans and a couple of kids, would you choose to be a PCP making $100K per year or a GI doc earning $500K per year? Either there should be more equality between reimbursements or loan forgiveness for people who go into fields where more physicians are needed.

I think doctors deserve a good income because we do work very hard... but with limits. I think it's ridiculous that there are docs who earn half a million a year or more.

 

[gravitywave]

i'd be totally fine with what doctors make, if I-bankers and CEO's got paid a little less...

 

[Narmerguy]

i'd be totally fine with what doctors make, if I-bankers and CEO's got paid a little less...

Real talk.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I think the inequity is within medicine, as I said. If you have $300K in loans and a couple of kids, would you choose to be a PCP making $100K per year or a GI doc earning $500K per year? Either there should be more equality between reimbursements or loan forgiveness for people who go into fields where more physicians are needed.

I think doctors deserve a good income because we do work very hard... but with limits. I think it's ridiculous that there are docs who earn half a million a year or more.

I think you're ridiculous. Why is it that i-bankers can make several million without being called ridiculous? Why can CEO's make that money, when it seems like all they do is fire people to get bigger bonuses. As I said, doctors often provide a life-death service. They spend all of their 20's and most of their 30's in training. They should be paid very well.

You should have issue with PCP's making less money. Not with other specialties making more.

 

[IlDestriero]

I think the inequity is within medicine, as I said. If you have $300K in loans and a couple of kids, would you choose to be a PCP making $100K per year or a GI doc earning $500K per year? Either there should be more equality between reimbursements or loan forgiveness for people who go into fields where more physicians are needed.

I think doctors deserve a good income because we do work very hard... but with limits. I think it's ridiculous that there are docs who earn half a million a year or more.

I know a lot of surgeons that make WAY more than that.

 

[WildMed16]

If Tom Brady and a handful of other athletes out there weren't getting paid 20 million per year to throw a piece of pigskin around for 16 games, I'd be cooler with making less.

 

[2012mdc]

If Tom Brady and a handful of other athletes out there weren't getting paid 20 million per year to throw a piece of pigskin around, I'd be cooler with making less.

I'm cool with the big name athletes making lots of money because they generate lots of money.

But the benchwarmers that no one comes to see that get paid 7 figures to practice and cheerlead during games is ridiculous. They bring very little to the table.

 

[Dr Oops]

this is ridiculous.

A PRIMARY-CARE physician makes MORE money than 97% of the American population. Guys, just be happy with what we have, many take it seriously for granted. You have to realize that only 6% of american HOUSEHOLDS make more than 100k in America. The household figure includes both earners of the house. A physician making even 150k - 30k loans/year is still making 120k pre-tax. Thus, even the "lowest-paid" (peds, FP...) are still making more money than 97% of the American population.

The average household income (not personal income, but both earners in the house) is still less than 50k. even the lowest paid physician on average makes more than 3 times that himself, not to mention any wages from his/her partner.

And how much training does that 97% of americans have compared to phyisicans?

I think you're ridiculous. Why is it that i-bankers can make several million without being called ridiculous? Why can CEO's make that money, when it seems like all they do is fire people to get bigger bonuses. As I said, doctors often provide a life-death service. They spend all of their 20's and most of their 30's in training. They should be paid very well.

You should have issue with PCP's making less money. Not with other specialties making more.

👍

 

[Narmerguy]

I think you're ridiculous. Why is it that i-bankers can make several million without being called ridiculous? Why can CEO's make that money, when it seems like all they do is fire people to get bigger bonuses. As I said, doctors often provide a life-death service. They spend all of their 20's and most of their 30's in training. They should be paid very well.

You should have issue with PCP's making less money. Not with other specialties making more.

Yes but to be honest there's thousands of new people every year that can do a doctor's job...there aren't thousands of people every year that can run a billion dollar company. It's actually a pretty difficult job. A lot of egos/decisions/inspiration to handle.

 

[p30doc]

Yes.

 

[FutureDoctor317]

You have to realize that only 6% of american HOUSEHOLDS make more than 100k in America.

Lol that is so far from the truth. It's more like 20% now, it was 15% in 2005 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States.

Being around the top 15% is pretty crappy if you ask me considering how late we start earning, how many loans we have, and the hours we work.

 

[Perrotfish]

Well people will b!tch and moan at the slightest hint that we should stop FUTILE treatment on people with essentially ZERO quality of life to contain costs. They'll say no amount of money is worth someone's life. However these same people are usually not willing tp pay a dime for their healthcare and say that doctors are overpaid. So, our services are extremely valuable yet no oe wants to pay for 'em.

Actually the futile care is where most of the money comes from. We have orgies of publically funded spending to give alcoholics millions dollar liver transplants, or to keep 97 year old veterans with no quality of life alive for another two weeks, or just to wheel a camatose Grandma who hasn't spoken since the 60s through the ER for a 'change in mental status' before shipping her back to her nursing home. Those patients have HUGE profit margins, and people are willing to pay doctors whatever they want to take care of them. It's the simple, useful things that physicians do that people expect to be done for free. Exercise stress test? It takes half an hour and a bunch of expensive equiptment and you might not get $50 for it. If we contained costs it would be better for society, but all we'd have left would be the things worth doing, and then we'd all be broke. Really, the reason that FPs and Pediatricians get paid so little is that they don't regularly engage in futile care.

It's not terribly surprising, people are emotional creatures. We don't care much about death when we see him at a distance, even when it wouldn't take much to get us out of his path, but when he gets up close we're terrified and fight tooth and nail even when the odds are hopeless. It's the same reason that it's so hard to study a single hour for a test that's a month away but so easy to pull an all nighter the night before.

Being around the top 15% is pretty crappy if you ask me considering how late we start earning, how many loans we have, and the hours we work.

You're not just at the top 15%, you're comparing your individual salary to the average income of entire households. Households normally have two people who work. Also you're using the number $100,000, which is less than all but the worst paid pediatricians make.

 

[omgyou8myrice]

Some specialties are woefully underpaid, some are spot on, and others are overpaid. That's my opinion, of course.

I don't believe the average IM doc makes $35/hour, so I'm just going to write that article off as nonsense.

 

[avatarftw]

No, you are incorrect. Your yearly compensation is a significant indicator of your net worth, but not the only one. If you theoretically had to spend 10 years after college on a degree to make 100,000 a year while somebody made 95,000 after college (your 10 year degree did not have tuition) then you will have a lower net worth due to the opportunity cost.

Its about looking at the whole picture: debt, years of income lost (opportunity cost), taxes, etc.

Also, when people say that physicians make a "lot" of money, what are they comparing it to? Its a lot compared to the average joe that has a high school or college degree, but nothing compared to athletes, businessmen, celebrities...health care CEO's...its all relative.

this is ridiculous.

A PRIMARY-CARE physician makes MORE money than 97% of the American population. Guys, just be happy with what we have, many take it seriously for granted. You have to realize that only 6% of american HOUSEHOLDS make more than 100k in America. The household figure includes both earners of the house. A physician making even 150k - 30k loans/year is still making 120k pre-tax. Thus, even the "lowest-paid" (peds, FP...) are still making more money than 97% of the American population.

The average household income (not personal income, but both earners in the house) is still less than 50k. even the lowest paid physician on average makes more than 3 times that himself, not to mention any wages from his/her partner.

 

[avatarftw]

Really? How do a lot of CEO's get fired after running the company to the ground and leave with 20+ million in their severance pay? If its really a free market, those executives should be sharing in both the benefits and risks of the company. I.E, if the company does poorly, they shouldn't get paid millions of dollars.

Yes but to be honest there's thousands of new people every year that can do a doctor's job...there aren't thousands of people every year that can run a billion dollar company. It's actually a pretty difficult job. A lot of egos/decisions/inspiration to handle.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Really? How do a lot of CEO's get fired after running the company to the ground and leave with 20+ million in their severance pay? If its really a free market, those executives should be sharing in both the benefits and risks of the company. I.E, if the company does poorly, they shouldn't get paid millions of dollars.

I have to agree with Narmerguy. Getting into med school doesn't require a ton of intelligence. What it does require is consistency and hard work. None of the prereqs are hard conceptually. And there are a lot of people who put in that effort and still not get accepted each year. I completely agree with Narmerguy that it's easier to get into medicine than it is to successfully be a CEO/run a large company.

 

[Wilf]

I'd like to see doctors get paid more. It would be nice if they could get paid as much as they did in the 80s.

 

[2012mdc]

I have to agree with Narmerguy. Getting into med school doesn't require a ton of intelligence. What it does require is consistency and hard work. None of the prereqs are hard conceptually. And there are a lot of people who put in that effort and still not get accepted each year. I completely agree with Narmerguy that it's easier to get into medicine than it is to successfully be a CEO/run a large company.

I don't think one needs to be a genius to get into med school but prereqs like O-Chem, G-chem, and Physics were hard for some people. Everyone is different, I actually think pre-med stuff was harder conceptually than M1, M2, Step 1, and anything I've seen 3rd year.

I have no issue with the good CEO's making a ton of money because they are generating a ton of money. It's just the ones that run the company into the ground yet get crazy severance pay.

I don't think the difficulty of obtaining a position should be strongly related to the pay. The 12th man on a NBA bench is not contributing more to society than a teacher or a physician.

 

[socal2014]

From an outside person looking in, doctors should get paid more, to offset taxes. Taxes are a large chunk, typically 25-40% of income.

Many ceo's are able to receive higher pay, because they have other parties working for them to give them rights that otherwise would not be common to the small businesses, such as low tax rates.

 

[45408]

this is ridiculous.

A PRIMARY-CARE physician makes MORE money than 97% of the American population. Guys, just be happy with what we have, many take it seriously for granted. You have to realize that only 6% of american HOUSEHOLDS make more than 100k in America. The household figure includes both earners of the house. A physician making even 150k - 30k loans/year is still making 120k pre-tax. Thus, even the "lowest-paid" (peds, FP...) are still making more money than 97% of the American population.

The average household income (not personal income, but both earners in the house) is still less than 50k. even the lowest paid physician on average makes more than 3 times that himself, not to mention any wages from his/her partner.

Large fonts notwithstanding, I work more than 97% of the population, I study more than 97% of the population, and I have more responsibility (when I finish as a surgeon) than 97% of the population.

But even then, wages aren't about how hard you work or how little the rest of the population makes. It's about how valuable your services are to the people who are paying for them. LeBron James was worth $100 million to Nike, and no one here can say otherwise. You might think that's too much money, but people don't pay people for services rendered if they don't think they are (or didn't think they would be) worth it.

 

[45408]

I have to agree with Narmerguy. Getting into med school doesn't require a ton of intelligence. What it does require is consistency and hard work. None of the prereqs are hard conceptually. And there are a lot of people who put in that effort and still not get accepted each year. I completely agree with Narmerguy that it's easier to get into medicine than it is to successfully be a CEO/run a large company.

The faux noblesse oblige is a nice touch to the ignorant masses, but give me a break. Take a random sampling of 100 people in a city, and tell me how many of them would find a Hofmann rearrangement conceptually difficult. If organic chemistry isn't conceptually difficult, what is?

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

The faux noblesse oblige is a nice touch to the ignorant masses, but give me a break. Take a random sampling of 100 people in a city, and tell me how many of them would find a Hofmann rearrangement conceptually difficult. If organic chemistry isn't conceptually difficult, what is?

True, you have a point. I guess my experience has just skewed my view (ie. very few of the premeds I know in real life or those in my orgo classes actually tried to understand the concept behind the material...most just brute-forced their way via memorization...hey, I'm guilty of some of this myself). I don't have any hard evidence at hand.

 

[Mace1370]

Large fonts notwithstanding, I work more than 97% of the population, I study more than 97% of the population, and I have more responsibility (when I finish as a surgeon) than 97% of the population.

But even then, wages aren't about how hard you work or how little the rest of the population makes. It's about how valuable your services are to the people who are paying for them. LeBron James was worth $100 million to Nike, and no one here can say otherwise. You might think that's too much money, but people don't pay people for services rendered if they don't think they are (or didn't think they would be) worth it.

Prowler hit the nail on the head. mdc, you may think that the 12th man on the NBA bench doesn't contribute to society, but the NBA definitely thinks he is worth his salary. Do you think the NBA wants to pay a guy a ridiculous amount to sit on the bench? The bottom line is that society places a huge value on basketball and that is the determinant of his salary, not what the minority (you and I) think about his job.

Doctors are in a weird position in that our salary isn't really dictated by supply and demand. It would be a heck of a lot higher if it was (for most specialties).

 

[Jolie South]

The faux noblesse oblige is a nice touch to the ignorant masses, but give me a break. Take a random sampling of 100 people in a city, and tell me how many of them would find a Hofmann rearrangement conceptually difficult. If organic chemistry isn't conceptually difficult, what is?

I think organic chemistry is much harder than anything I ever learned in medical school.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Large fonts notwithstanding, I work more than 97% of the population, I study more than 97% of the population, and I have more responsibility (when I finish as a surgeon) than 97% of the population.

But even then, wages aren't about how hard you work or how little the rest of the population makes. It's about how valuable your services are to the people who are paying for them. LeBron James was worth $100 million to Nike, and no one here can say otherwise. You might think that's too much money, but people don't pay people for services rendered if they don't think they are (or didn't think they would be) worth it.

Also, it's not just about what people think your service is worth, but what they think they personally must pay for your service. I bet the same person spending 1000+ to attend the superbowl would not pay that amount in hospital bills or doctor fees if uninsured.

Talking to family members, they think what they get billed for a procedure all goes to the doctor. Little do they know, the physician fee is the smallest component of the bill, and that insurance companies don't exactly pay what the bill says they should...

 

[2012mdc]

Prowler hit the nail on the head. mdc, you may think that the 12th man on the NBA bench doesn't contribute to society, but the NBA definitely thinks he is worth his salary. Do you think the NBA wants to pay a guy a ridiculous amount to sit on the bench? The bottom line is that society places a huge value on basketball and that is the determinant of his salary, not what the minority (you and I) think about his job.

Doctors are in a weird position in that our salary isn't really dictated by supply and demand. It would be a heck of a lot higher if it was (for most specialties).

What do you mean by the NBA? The owners think salaries are too high and that's why there is talk of a lockout. The only reason the bench guys get paid so much is because of the player's union. They are not getting paid a lot because of their value but because of their negotiating.

 

[Mace1370]

What do you mean by the NBA? The owners think salaries are too high and that's why there is talk of a lockout. The only reason the bench guys get paid so much is because of the player's union. They are not getting paid a lot because of their value but because of their negotiating.

I admit I don't know much about the NBA specifically, or follow basketball. I didn't even realize there was a player's union. Is this union in any way backed by the government? If it isn't, then supply/demand would still apply.

 

[thedoctor8706]

No, but training should cost way less.

 

[45408]

True, you have a point. I guess my experience has just skewed my view (ie. very few of the premeds I know in real life or those in my orgo classes actually tried to understand the concept behind the material...most just brute-forced their way via memorization...hey, I'm guilty of some of this myself). I don't have any hard evidence at hand.

There were many concepts in organic chem that I never fully understood (a Hofmann rearrangement being one of them), but my approach to organic was to try to understand the concepts. At least in my class, you couldn't pass the professor's exams if you didn't get it at a conceptual level. I studied with a group of three other guys (who are all residents now) when I took the class in 2003 😉 and I know that they were all focusing on concepts more than memorizing 800 reactions.

What do you mean by the NBA? The owners think salaries are too high and that's why there is talk of a lockout. The only reason the bench guys get paid so much is because of the player's union. They are not getting paid a lot because of their value but because of their negotiating.

Of course the owners think the players are paid too much 🙄 If they said anything else, the players would be idiots not to demand more money. When you go to a used car lot and check out cars, you offer the salesman less than you're willing to pay. Is that because you think it's worth that little? Or because you're trying to negotiate? "Talk of a walkout" = telling the car salesman "I have to go home and think about this."

 

[2012mdc]

There were many concepts in organic chem that I never fully understood (a Hofmann rearrangement being one of them), but my approach to organic was to try to understand the concepts. At least in my class, you couldn't pass the professor's exams if you didn't get it at a conceptual level. I studied with a group of three other guys (who are all residents now) when I took the class in 2003 😉 and I know that they were all focusing on concepts more than memorizing 800 reactions.


Of course the owners think the players are paid too much 🙄 If they said anything else, the players would be idiots not to demand more money. When you go to a used car lot and check out cars, you offer the salesman less than you're willing to pay. Is that because you think it's worth that little? Or because you're trying to negotiate? "Talk of a walkout" = telling the car salesman "I have to go home and think about this."

Don't want to get into a long discussion about the NBA and detract from the thread. The point I was making was that the benchwarmers contribute little and get paid a lot - not because of high demand but because of their bargaining position (the LeBron's and Kobes on their side).

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Doctors get paid a lot because they do a valuable skill that takes a long time to develop and there are not that many providers. No one cares about debt load or sacrificing your life to a profession that doesn't get you a high salary.

 

[MossPoh]

I've always hated that make more money than X% of the population statement. I was offered jobs out of undergrad for 80k starting. After 3 years, I'd have my MBA paid for by the company for wherever I got in and make 110k or so with lots of room for growth. I decided I wanted to be a doctor instead. That was 4 years ago now (I spent two years doing prereqs). So, I could theoretically be sitting on a 6 figure income with more earning potential to come, but instead I'm living in a run down 1 bedroom apartment where I don't even run my heat to save energy and don't have cable t.v. or internet (thanks linksys).

After another 2 years of paying to work my butt off, I get another 3+ years of residency where I will make some money finally. Not much, but at least I'll be in the black. I then get to start a job where I will only make slightly more and have people consistently whine about how much I make.

I've had relationships fall through. I've sacrificed countless weekends and evenings to stay in and study, or get a little extra sleep so I could study. I've given up or reduced the amount of time for things I used to love doing. "Treating myself" entails going to the movies and eating at a mediocre restaurant when many of my friends are jet setting around the world. The sacrifices I've made are far greater than what that 97% of the population has done. I signed up for it knowing that would be the case. I also don't think I'm "better" than them for it, but I do feel I deserve pretty friggin solid compensation for all the crap that I will go through. I don't expect to be a millionaire, but I do get a little touchy when people start talking about those "greedy doctors". Besides, the gap between that top 1-2 % and the rest of us is a lot greater than a general surgeon's income and a construction worker.

 

[avatarftw]

Great post! If its not too personal, what was your college major and what was the job? Finance? You must really be doing it for the "right reasons". 🙂

I've always hated that make more money than X% of the population statement. I was offered jobs out of undergrad for 80k starting. After 3 years, I'd have my MBA paid for by the company for wherever I got in and make 110k or so with lots of room for growth. I decided I wanted to be a doctor instead. That was 4 years ago now (I spent two years doing prereqs). So, I could theoretically be sitting on a 6 figure income with more earning potential to come, but instead I'm living in a run down 1 bedroom apartment where I don't even run my heat to save energy and don't have cable t.v. or internet (thanks linksys).

After another 2 years of paying to work my butt off, I get another 3+ years of residency where I will make some money finally. Not much, but at least I'll be in the black. I then get to start a job where I will only make slightly more and have people consistently whine about how much I make.

I've had relationships fall through. I've sacrificed countless weekends and evenings to stay in and study, or get a little extra sleep so I could study. I've given up or reduced the amount of time for things I used to love doing. "Treating myself" entails going to the movies and eating at a mediocre restaurant when many of my friends are jet setting around the world. The sacrifices I've made are far greater than what that 97% of the population has done. I signed up for it knowing that would be the case. I also don't think I'm "better" than them for it, but I do feel I deserve pretty friggin solid compensation for all the crap that I will go through. I don't expect to be a millionaire, but I do get a little touchy when people start talking about those "greedy doctors". Besides, the gap between that top 1-2 % and the rest of us is a lot greater than a general surgeon's income and a construction worker.

 

[Antibodies]

I've always hated that make more money than X% of the population statement. I was offered jobs out of undergrad for 80k starting. After 3 years, I'd have my MBA paid for by the company for wherever I got in and make 110k or so with lots of room for growth. I decided I wanted to be a doctor instead. That was 4 years ago now (I spent two years doing prereqs). So, I could theoretically be sitting on a 6 figure income with more earning potential to come, but instead I'm living in a run down 1 bedroom apartment where I don't even run my heat to save energy and don't have cable t.v. or internet (thanks linksys).

After another 2 years of paying to work my butt off, I get another 3+ years of residency where I will make some money finally. Not much, but at least I'll be in the black. I then get to start a job where I will only make slightly more and have people consistently whine about how much I make.

I've had relationships fall through. I've sacrificed countless weekends and evenings to stay in and study, or get a little extra sleep so I could study. I've given up or reduced the amount of time for things I used to love doing. "Treating myself" entails going to the movies and eating at a mediocre restaurant when many of my friends are jet setting around the world. The sacrifices I've made are far greater than what that 97% of the population has done. I signed up for it knowing that would be the case. I also don't think I'm "better" than them for it, but I do feel I deserve pretty friggin solid compensation for all the crap that I will go through. I don't expect to be a millionaire, but I do get a little touchy when people start talking about those "greedy doctors". Besides, the gap between that top 1-2 % and the rest of us is a lot greater than a general surgeon's income and a construction worker.

Solid post. I am tempted to link to it if I ever get into any more salary conversations.
The average Joe doesn't know what becoming a doctor entails. All they see is the huge salary that Yahoo Money articles keep writing about.

 

[Bombrainiac]

Guys and gals... There should be no debate on this one. Doctors should get paid as much as they possibly can. Medicine is an industry, like it or not. If you don't fight to get paid, they you simply won't get paid what you're worth. Everyone who works for money has to negotiate their compensation. In medicine, you don't get paid BEFORE you provide your service. You get paid AFTER (sometimes months after or not at all) the service is done and the cost and time are already spent. Why are family practice docs having a hard time keeping their private practices open? That's a shame. Why are the best and the brightest looking to other professions? That's a huge loss for society.

If doctors are charged with looking out for society and taking care of others, the least we can do is start looking out for and taking care of ourselves. Being the lamb is no longer acceptable when we know we're being surrounding by wolves. Time to man up and and get our heads out of of our idealistic asses. Health insurance CEOs are the highest paid CEOs out there... think about that and how that's possible while a pediatrician in private practice actually LOSES MONEY giving vaccines to school children.

We are easy targets, because we're "too busy" taking care of patients to concern ourselves with the larger issues that are affecting patient care. Our presence on Capitol Hill is laughable compared to the ABA, ATLA, or insurance lobbies. There are 26 administrators for every patient in this country. That alone is a testament to the amount of pillaging going on in medicine--a lot of people making money who have nothing to do with what the medical industry actually produces. And there's talk about cutting physician reimbursements? And there are young physicians who are "OK" with making $150,000 a year? Anyone in this forum who has a spouse, a couple of kids, a parent or two to take care of, a house payment, and a couple of cars knows that 150 Gs pre-tax doesn't get you very far--and God forbid you want to send your kids to private school... not a chance. Can I get a witness?

 

[medstudent87]

Guys and gals... There should be no debate on this one. Doctors should get paid as much as they possibly can. Medicine is an industry, like it or not. If you don't fight to get paid, they you simply won't get paid what you're worth. Everyone who works for money has to negotiate their compensation. In medicine, you don't get paid BEFORE you provide your service. You get paid AFTER (sometimes months after or not at all) the service is done and the cost and time are already spent. Why are family practice docs having a hard time keeping their private practices open? That's a shame. Why are the best and the brightest looking to other professions? That's a huge loss for society.

If doctors are charged with looking out for society and taking care of others, the least we can do is start looking out for and taking care of ourselves. Being the lamb is no longer acceptable when we know we're being surrounding by wolves. Time to man up and and get our heads out of of our idealistic asses. Health insurance CEOs are the highest paid CEOs out there... think about that and how that's possible while a pediatrician in private practice actually LOSES MONEY giving vaccines to school children.

We are easy targets, because we're "too busy" taking care of patients to concern ourselves with the larger issues that are affecting patient care. Our presence on Capitol Hill is laughable compared to the ABA, ATLA, or insurance lobbies. There are 26 administrators for every patient in this country. That alone is a testament to the amount of pillaging going on in medicine--a lot of people making money who have nothing to do with what the medical industry actually produces. And there's talk about cutting physician reimbursements? And there are young physicians who are "OK" with making $150,000 a year? Anyone in this forum who has a spouse, a couple of kids, a parent or two to take care of, a house payment, and a couple of cars knows that 150 Gs pre-tax doesn't get you very far--and God forbid you want to send your kids to private school... not a chance. Can I get a witness?

So what exactly can I (or anyone else) do to insure better compensation?

 

[badasshairday]

So what exactly can I (or anyone else) do to insure better compensation?

Money talks. Contribute to your state medical political action groups and contribute to nation wide level specialty groups. If there is a physician running for a seat in congress, contribute to his/her campaign. If there is a physician running for office in your jurisdiction, get off your ass and VOTE! And encourage all your collegues to do the same. Let them know the realities, and urge them to be active as well.

 

[altruism101]

The American public desire physicians to be omniscient saints who can solve all of their health related issues. They are not concerned with the pay of physicians as doctors are "rich" and drive fancy cars. Besides premeds shouldn't go into medicine for the money. They should do so to help all people out of the kindness of their hearts. Never mind the extensive time spent studying and the financial losses incurred during the process. We are saints sent by god to alleviate suffering while living on a humble wage. It doesn't matter if physicians should be paid more because we won't be.





P.S. Gunning for derm .

 

[Baron S]

this is ridiculous.

A PRIMARY-CARE physician makes MORE money than 97% of the American population. Guys, just be happy with what we have, many take it seriously for granted. You have to realize that only 6% of american HOUSEHOLDS make more than 100k in America. The household figure includes both earners of the house. A physician making even 150k - 30k loans/year is still making 120k pre-tax. Thus, even the "lowest-paid" (peds, FP...) are still making more money than 97% of the American population.

The average household income (not personal income, but both earners in the house) is still less than 50k. even the lowest paid physician on average makes more than 3 times that himself, not to mention any wages from his/her partner.

Gufffahhhhhh

Most those folks start working when they're 18. Salary isn't everything, mon petit ami. Take into account how freakin' difficult it is to become a doc, the necessity for doctors and the fact that not everybody can become doctors, and its clear why they should be paid more than at LEAST 97% of the public.

If 97% of the public worked as hard as doctors I could buy into it. But they don't. Not even close.