Should I apply without committee letter?

[rosie23]

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My stats:
sgpa 3.08 currently (hoping to get it to 3.16)
cGPA: 3.4

I have been a ER scribe for 3 years. I am a senior at GW. However my premed advisor says the cutoff for the HPAC committee letter is a science GPA of 3.2. The thing is I do not want to go have to go to a post bacc program if I can get into med school. On my practice MCAT exams, I get a 32 hoping to score a 37.

My gpa is low because during my sophomore year my dad passed away from a brain tumor. I just really wanted to apply this summer (I would already be taking a gap year and dont want to take 2 gap years). I've done really well junior and senior years.

Can I apply without the committee letter?

 

[Pacna]

You can absolutely apply without the committee letter. However, you'll need to do a good job of explaining yourself. A 3.4 is not an exceptionally strong number, mind you, but I don't think it will exclude your from lower tier MDs or even mid if you write exceptionally well.

You will also need to get the requisite letters. Most schools want 2 from a science profession and 1 from a non-science professor. Others want MD/DO letters, so make sure you acquire those if the schools you plan to apply to require them.

If you start now, you should have no trouble getting these letters. Good luck!

 

[rosie23]

Which MD schools are low tier?

 

[Pacna]

Check the MSAR (if you haven't bought it yet, I highly recommend doing so). Low-tier schools have lower MCAT and GPA requirements and averages than higher-tier schools.

Checking rankings is also an OK indicator of how prestigious a school is and how difficult it will be to get in there.

 

[487806]

Which MD schools are low tier?

Essentially, the SDN motto is that tier system doesn't exist and is based off US News. Basically, the accurate assessment is to evaluate schools based on LizzyM scores (GPA*10 + MCAT) along with geographic preferences (obtained from MSAR). So, schools like Drexel/Jefferson/Commonwealth/Cooper etc. etc. (all in the LizzyM range of 68-72) is low tier.

 

[mik30102]

DO would also be a good option for you. Your science gpa is pretty low, so if you go that route you could retake some 4 credit science courses to hopefully boost it a few points. Ask your adviser if they would use a updated gpa with the DO replacement to meet their 3.2 requirement. Most schools seem to prefer you using your committee if you have such a service.

 

[gettheleadout]

My stats:
sgpa 3.08 currently (hoping to get it to 3.16)
cGPA: 3.4

I have been a ER scribe for 3 years. I am a senior at GW. However my premed advisor says the cutoff for the HPAC committee letter is a science GPA of 3.2. The thing is I do not want to go have to go to a post bacc program if I can get into med school. On my practice MCAT exams, I get a 32 hoping to score a 37.

My gpa is low because during my sophomore year my dad passed away from a brain tumor. I just really wanted to apply this summer (I would already be taking a gap year and dont want to take 2 gap years). I've done really well junior and senior years.

Can I apply without the committee letter?

Many, many schools have no policy at all on committee letters* (i.e. they do not address any sort of requirement that applicants with the option should receive/submit one). For any school that requires explanation of your decision not to use the committee, in this case you can simply say that the service was not made available to you due to academic requirements that you did not meet. Premed committees have no standing with which to determine if you are qualified enough for medical school; they are not admissions committees.

*Out of the 15 schools I will be applying to (granted they are selective schools), precisely 6 have any sort of available information/policy on the submission of committee letters. Of those 6, two simply "prefer" or "recommend" the use of a committee letter where available, two imply that it is required, and two explicitly require it (one of which requires explanation for non-use).

I really don't think it's a big deal.

 

[Jennyfishy]

Essentially, the SDN motto is that tier system doesn't exist and is based off US News. Basically, the accurate assessment is to evaluate schools based on LizzyM scores (GPA*10 + MCAT) along with geographic preferences (obtained from MSAR). So, schools like Drexel/Jefferson/Commonwealth/Cooper etc. etc. (all in the LizzyM range of 68-72) is low tier.

Basing it primarily LizzyM might be a little misleading, as some of the top programs don't have inflated MCAT scores (and thus, lower LizzyM scores), like University of Washington, whose average MCAT is (I think) 32 (so a total LizzyM of ~70) despite it being a "higher ranked school." Taking both factors into consideration will help in evaluating how difficult it will be to get an interview/acceptance from the schools on your list though 😛

 

[LizzyM]

Basing it primarily LizzyM might be a little misleading, as some of the top programs don't have inflated MCAT scores (and thus, lower LizzyM scores), like University of Washington, whose average MCAT is (I think) 32 (so a total LizzyM of ~70) despite it being a "higher ranked school." Taking both factors into consideration will help in evaluating how difficult it will be to get an interview/acceptance from the schools on your list though 😛

For U Washington, it is important to be from one of the states that they treat as "in state". If you aren't, no LizzyM score on earth will get you an interview.

LizzyM score and USNews are somewhat correlated because both use MCAT and gpa in their calculation of ranking. (of course, LIzzyM score uses only gpa and MCAT). Rather than talk about tiers, it might be useful to think about competitiveness of schools for admission by LizzyM score and proportion of OOS applicants who are interviewed. In terms of reputation, USNews might be as good a measure as any (although flawed) becuase it also factors in research funding which is a measure of a school's productivity in that regard and residency directors' opinions of the school.

 

[Jennyfishy]

For U Washington, it is important to be from one of the states that they treat as "in state". If you aren't, no LizzyM score on earth will get you an interview.

LizzyM score and USNews are somewhat correlated because both use MCAT and gpa in their calculation of ranking. (of course, LIzzyM score uses only gpa and MCAT). Rather than talk about tiers, it might be useful to think about competitiveness of schools for admission by LizzyM score and proportion of OOS applicants who are interviewed. In terms of reputation, USNews might be as good a measure as any (although flawed) becuase it also factors in research funding which is a measure of a school's productivity in that regard and residency directors' opinions of the school.

Great clarification 😛. I used a bad example without clarifying this important point, heh.

On some of the school threads, I see people posting about how shocked they are when their LizzyM of 75+ is rejected from a school that offers fewer than 150 OOS interviews out of 3000+ applicants, which doesn't necessarily illustrate that the school is otherwise "super competitive." It definitely shows how many factors you will need to look into with MSAR before adding schools you want to apply to. I just felt it was somewhat misleading to say "around this score means the school is low tier, so apply to them".

 

[CarlosDanger]

You may want to consider not applying right now with a science GPA that low, its going to make things really difficult. I guess you could apply while at the same time taking more science courses post-graduation and making all As, and updating schools with your new grades as the cycle progresses. But honestly, your chances at admission are low without raising your GPA more. On the other hand, you have a pretty compelling story for secondaries about how you turned around a sub-par performance due to a death in the family, became stronger, more motivated, etc etc.

I considered going without a committee letter (because it was really inconvenient for me to get), but it really seemed like schools strongly preferred them whether they stated that explicitly or not. You just don't want to create more questions in their mind.

 

[greenflower]

Oh dear, no. Don't apply without a committee letter, which is viewed as your undergrad's endorsement of you as a future medical student. Lacking this will be the kiss of death and you won't get into a US med school. Take the year to get your GPA up - you're close so you can do it. It's better to wait until you are ready and then apply. Lots of schools also look down on multiple re-applicants, so it is best not to blow your chances with a disadvantaged application.

If you really feel the time crunch, you can apply to St. Georges in Grenada, but that's a big drop in prestige. You're young, and it is VERY common to take 2-4 years off between undergrad & med school. Don't blow your chances because you're feeling impatient.

 

[gettheleadout]

Oh dear, no. Don't apply without a committee letter, which is viewed as your undergrad's endorsement of you as a future medical student. Lacking this will be the kiss of death and you won't get into a US med school. Take the year to get your GPA up - you're close so you can do it. It's better to wait until you are ready and then apply. Lots of schools also look down on multiple re-applicants, so it is best not to blow your chances with a disadvantaged application.

If you really feel the time crunch, you can apply to St. Georges in Grenada, but that's a big drop in prestige. You're young, and it is VERY common to take 2-4 years off between undergrad & med school. Don't blow your chances because you're feeling impatient.

lol okay

 

[sourdoughllama]

So, schools like Drexel/Jefferson/Commonwealth/Cooper etc. etc. (all in the LizzyM range of 68-72) is low tier.

I think LizzyM 72 is way too high to be bottom tier (3.8 + 34)? Even 70 would be solidly mid-tier at 3.8 + 32.

 

[487806]

Basing it primarily LizzyM might be a little misleading, as some of the top programs don't have inflated MCAT scores (and thus, lower LizzyM scores), like University of Washington, whose average MCAT is (I think) 32 (so a total LizzyM of ~70) despite it being a "higher ranked school." Taking both factors into consideration will help in evaluating how difficult it will be to get an interview/acceptance from the schools on your list though 😛

UWash is a bad example. The school basically outright rejects any applicant who isn't WWAMI. LizzyM score is accurate in assessing relative competitiveness of the school (so schools with high LizzyM score are generally quite selective with additional expectations like research, leadership, unique ECs etc.). It shouldn't be taken to an absolute extent, but it's a good assessment in analyzing tiers.

I think LizzyM 72 is way too high to be bottom tier (3.8 + 34)? Even 70 would be solidly mid-tier at 3.8 + 32.

You're right. I was incorrectly using SDN population in this statement 🙁 66-69 = low-tier; 70-73 = mid-tier; 74+ = top-tier

 

[karayaa]

UWash is a bad example. The school basically outright rejects any applicant who isn't WWAMI. LizzyM score is accurate in assessing relative competitiveness of the school (so schools with high LizzyM score are generally quite selective with additional expectations like research, leadership, unique ECs etc.). It shouldn't be taken to an absolute extent, but it's a good assessment in analyzing tiers.



You're right. I was incorrectly using SDN population in this statement 🙁 66-69 = low-tier; 70-73 = mid-tier; 74+ = top-tier

So this is the real ranking system, with schools like USC, Georgetown, Tulane, Boston, Tufts, VTech, VCU, all being low tier?
I have to re-assess everything I've been reading about low tier schools lol

 

[487806]

So this is the real ranking system, with schools like USC, Georgetown, Tulane, Boston, Tufts, VTech, VCU, all being low tier?
I have to re-assess everything I've been reading about low tier schools lol

It's just a useful guide in creating an MD list. Besides most, if not all, of those schools either hate OOS applicants or receive so many applications that they reject the top ones for treating them as safety schools.

 

[karayaa]

It's just a useful guide in creating an MD list. Besides most, if not all, of those schools either hate OOS applicants or receive so many applications that they reject the top ones for treating them as safety schools.

iiinteresting. 👍

 

[BurberryDoc]

You will likely need to do a postbacc/SMP/MS if you cannot break a 35, and even then, the odds will be stacked against you.

I applied this year, with a 3.3cGPA and a 30 MCAT - I was getting 38-41 consistently on my practice MCATS. Don't use your practice MCAT as an estimate of your actual score - seldom does it work out.

I have done a traditional MS, with a 3.85. I applied without a committee letter from my undergrad, and I actually had a leg to stand on because through my MS program, I was able to give tangible evidence that anything the "committee" would say about my undergraduate performance was no longer a current reflection of my abilities as a student.

Without a committee letter, with that GPA in the absence of a very high MCAT score, you need to apply DO or not at all.

Yes, this post is meant to scare you. It's the reality of it, and I was in your exact situation and I am no longer. I currently hold two MD acceptances.

PM me for more information if you want some solid advice on how to rebuild.

 

[BurberryDoc]

So this is the real ranking system, with schools like USC, Georgetown, Tulane, Boston, Tufts, VTech, VCU, all being low tier?
I have to re-assess everything I've been reading about low tier schools lol

All of these schools are OOS friendly, what are you talking about?!

Sorry, I meant to quote Agent B.

 

[487806]

All of these schools are OOS friendly, what are you talking about?!

Sorry, I meant to quote Agent B.

I added the "or" as a failsafe. VCU and VTech are OOS friendly?

 

[BurberryDoc]

I added the "or" as a failsafe. VCU and VTech are OOS friendly?

For state schools, very much so, yes.

 

[487806]

For state schools, very much so, yes.

Hmm. Interesting. Must be the high application volume being the problem. Still, by the reference I pointed out earlier, they're low/low-mid tier schools (except for maybe Boston and USC as mid-tier) based on average stats. Application volume makes it competitive as well as perceiving them as safeties.

 

[sourdoughllama]

So this is the real ranking system, with schools like USC, Georgetown, Tulane, Boston, Tufts, VTech, VCU, all being low tier?
I have to re-assess everything I've been reading about low tier schools lol

There's no real ranking system, but in no rankings have I ever seen USC/Gtown/Tufts/BU labeled as "low tier." Schools more commonly labeled as low tier are new unaccredited schools (like quinnipiac or hofstra), most unranked schools (Albany, NYMC), and the HBCU schools (Howard, Meharry)

Either way, the point of these tiers was to help the OP decide which schools to look at. "Low tier" schools will most likely have a LizzyM closer to the avg stats (3.6/3.7 and 31), so around 67-68

Straight from LizzyM herself (and pretty relevant for the purposes of this discussion):

"I'd stratify by academic acheivement of those who are admitted/matriculate indicated by LizzyM score (gpa* 10+ MCAT):
Top tier: LizzyM score >72
Mid tier: Lizzy M score 68-72
Lower tier: LizzyM score 64-67
Lowest tier: LizzyM score <64

I suspect that some very good schools have lower LizzyM scores because they limit themselves to a small subset of the total pool of applicants (e.g. in-state residents only).

Some schools might have a public perception of being better than their LizzyM score would suggest because they have an excellent basketball program or are otherwise well known to the general public."

 

[BurberryDoc]

There's no real ranking system, but in no rankings have I ever seen USC/Gtown/Tufts/BU labeled as "low tier." Schools more commonly labeled as low tier are new unaccredited schools (like quinnipiac or hofstra), most unranked schools (Albany, NYMC), and the HBCU schools (Howard, Meharry)

Either way, the point of these tiers was to help the OP decide which schools to look at. "Low tier" schools will most likely have a LizzyM closer to the avg stats (3.6/3.7 and 31), so around 67-68

The only low tier in what you had quoted was perhaps VCU and Tulane. GTown, USC, are upper-mid tier, Boston is a top 30 I am fairly certain.

 

[gettheleadout]

I applied this year, with a 3.3cGPA and a 30 MCAT - I was getting 38-41 consistently on my practice MCATS. Don't use your practice MCAT as an estimate of your actual score - seldom does it work out.

This is just fearmongering and you are an odd case. A drop from a 39 AAMC average to a 30 is insane. One's AAMC FL average is generally predictive.

Edit: although you didn't say you were referring to AAMC practice tests... If you weren't then yeah, those scores wouldn't mean anything.

 

[orangeman25]

Wanted to bump this thread because LizzyM scores were mentioned and I have a question about calculating them. How do I incorporate my science gpa into my calculation? My cumulative is rather low but my science is solid, so should I average them?

 

[grumpiestcat]

There's no real ranking system, but in no rankings have I ever seen USC/Gtown/Tufts/BU labeled as "low tier." Schools more commonly labeled as low tier are new unaccredited schools (like quinnipiac or hofstra), most unranked schools (Albany, NYMC), and the HBCU schools (Howard, Meharry)/quote]

For the record, preliminary/provisional accreditation does not =unaccredited

 

[sourdoughllama]

For the record, preliminary/provisional accreditation does not =unaccredited

Yeah sorry that's what I meant!