Should I/Can I go for MD/PhD?

[ecoli]

It's the million dollar question.

I just finished my junior year at a SUNY school. I'm a biochem major, with a 3.58 cum GPA.
Originally, I had planned on going for my PhD, but advice from grad students and MD/PhD students prompted me to look into such a program.
I've been working in a microbiology/ molecular genetics lab since high school (so almost 4 years now) but no publications so far. I did some research in high school in a physics lab (but wasn't interested in it). I also have some other relevant experiance (biotech summer camps, job doing chem/bio testing on soil samples, etc). Not to mention other extra-cirrics.

I've signed up for the MCATs for August, so I'm trying my best to study hard for them now.

The question is should I want to go? My GPA isn't the greatest, and I have no idea what I'm going to get on the MCATs.

My interests lie in the basic sciences, rather than clinical research, but I am interested in medicine and especially in infectious diseases (inc. protein interaction, molecular evolution, etc). And I love being part of a scientific community, doing research, discussing/presenting research. I have less experience with the medical side of it (though I'm probably gonig to shadow my girlfriend's psychiatrist mother this summer).

Would going for an MSTP confer any specific advantage for me? Or would I just be wasting an extra 4 years for what I could do with just a PhD. I don't mind putting the extra time and effort in (for the MCATs now and if I'm accepted.)

I guess this is just a big decision, and I'm sort of overwhelmed, because I've already entered the application process without being utterly convinced I belong here, or even if I want to stay.

Thank you

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[Neuronix]

Start with: http://www.med.upenn.edu/mstp/applicantfaq.pdf

and

http://www.mdphds.org/guide.shtml

Only you can figure out if you want to do this. To clear up a few things you posted about, the goal of MD/PhD is to train basic scientists, not clinical scientists typically.

Your GPA is a little on the low side but not too bad. If you get a good MCAT score (35+) you'll be fine.

 

[decal]

Just about everyone on here is going to tell you to just go with a PhD, and probably rightly so. Were I in your shoes I would evaluate my motivations and ask one question in particular: do I want to complete a residency & practice medicine? If the answer is no or uncertain, I don't think it's worth blowing four years on the MD. Since you're interested in infectious disease, see if you can find an ID doc to shadow as it might give you a better taste than a psychiatrist could. Should you decide to go forward with your application you will need to be fairly resolute in your decision for several reasons. First, you will likely need a good MCAT score to balance out your GPA. Second, your clinical experience sounds sorely lacking and needs to be shored up, and third, interviewers can see through uncertainty. Good luck in whatever you choose.

 

[ecoli]

Just about everyone on here is going to tell you to just go with a PhD, and probably rightly so. Were I in your shoes I would evaluate my motivations and ask one question in particular: do I want to complete a residency & practice medicine? If the answer is no or uncertain, I don't think it's worth blowing four years on the MD. Since you're interested in infectious disease, see if you can find an ID doc to shadow as it might give you a better taste than a psychiatrist could. Should you decide to go forward with your application you will need to be fairly resolute in your decision for several reasons. First, you will likely need a good MCAT score to balance out your GPA. Second, your clinical experience sounds sorely lacking and needs to be shored up, and third, interviewers can see through uncertainty. Good luck in whatever you choose.

Is the normal thing to complete a residency and practice medicine? I've met "Mud PHuds" that practice and ones that do basic research.

At this point, what would be the benefits for someone interested in research, like me, for going into the dual program? Obviously, I don't relish the dog and pony show that is MSTP application, but I'm not necessarily afraid of it either. Is it worth waiting and seeing what I get on the MCATs before making a concrete decision?

I've read both of the FAQs above, and I still think they're both missing my basic question. I'm interested in the medical sciences, and the application of biological science to the medical field... but is this what an MD/PhD would do?

And good call on shadowing someone in ID, I'm going to try to arrange that.

I also think I'm going to make an appointment with the director of the MSTP program at my university's medical school and ask some of these questions.

Thank you guys very much for your help. You're doing a great service on these boards.

 

[Ariodant]

but is this what an MD/PhD would do?

This is what an MD/PhD can do. This is also what an MD, or even a PhD can do. Everyone who wants and end up doing it does it differently, and each feels that s/he needs a particular set of skills and training, depending on each person's interest and ways of doing things. Only you can decide which recipe is the best one for you.

 

[Neuronix]

Is the normal thing to complete a residency and practice medicine? I've met "Mud PHuds" that practice and ones that do basic research.

95% or so will complete residency. I don't know what the rate is for doing some sort of practice. I imagine it's up above 80%, maybe 90%.

Is it worth waiting and seeing what I get on the MCATs before making a concrete decision?

I did that, I admit as I duck from the flames. I don't think it's a terrible idea cause if you get a 30 on the MCAT it will be an uphill battle for you. You should have a good idea you really want to practice medicine and research though.

I'm interested in the medical sciences, and the application of biological science to the medical field... but is this what an MD/PhD would do?

That's almost exactly the goal. Someone who will spend 80-90% of their time doing basic research running their own lab and some time in the clinics. Someone who can apply their medical training to research questions and vice versa. You can do this with an MD as well. You can also try to address medically relevant questions and try to get a lot of medically-oriented training as a PhD as well. So Ariodant's point should be well taken. There's many ways to get where you might want to go, if you even know where you want to go.

Thank you guys very much for your help. You're doing a great service on these boards.

That's why we're here Thanks for the compliment. I would disagree with what decal said. It sounds like you just recently heard about MD/PhD and aren't sure. That's reasonable. That's why I started on SDN. There wasn't an MD/PhD in the state I grew up in as far as I'm aware and my undergrad advisors were completely against MD/PhD (and still are!). So to be unsure, eh, it's a part of life. I'm still unsure. You should be or at least sound pretty damn sure if you decide to apply though

 

[ecoli]

This is what an MD/PhD can do. This is also what an MD, or even a PhD can do. Everyone who wants and end up doing it does it differently, and each feels that s/he needs a particular set of skills and training, depending on each person's interest and ways of doing things. Only you can decide which recipe is the best one for you.

oy... I think you just confused me more.

If the above is true, how can I quantify the best way I do things, and decide which program is right for me?
I mean, there obviously is no easy answer, but how can I even begin to tell which is right for me, when, apparently, the end result can lead to the same place, anyway?

 

[Ariodant]

Honestly, there's no perfect way to quantify it. Experiment with each as much as possible, see which setting is more appealing to you. Most will end up practicing just a little, but even if minimal patient contact will turn you away, then it's obvious. The harder choice is about the PhD, since many MDs do aquire their own labs and have successful research careers. Some people insist that a PhD confers some advantage over just a few years of research fellowship, and I sort of agree. But I won't force that impression on others.

I guess that doesn't really answer your question, and I doubt anyone can come up with one. We are excited but unsure explorers ourselves.

 

[gbwillner]

1. The question is should I want to go? My GPA isn't the greatest, and I have no idea what I'm going to get on the MCATs.

2. My interests lie in the basic sciences, rather than clinical research, but I am interested in medicine and especially in infectious diseases (inc. protein interaction, molecular evolution, etc). And I love being part of a scientific community, doing research, discussing/presenting research. I have less experience with the medical side of it (though I'm probably gonig to shadow my girlfriend's psychiatrist mother this summer).

3. Would going for an MSTP confer any specific advantage for me? Or would I just be wasting an extra 4 years for what I could do with just a PhD. I don't mind putting the extra time and effort in (for the MCATs now and if I'm accepted.)

4. I guess this is just a big decision, and I'm sort of overwhelmed, because I've already entered the application process without being utterly convinced I belong here, or even if I want to stay.

Here are some short answers for you:

1. Should you want to go to med school? I don't think anyone can tell you that. Although all the cool kids are doing it.

2. You will definitely find that in an MD/PhD program.

3. YES. I don't believe when people say there's no advantage- there most certainly is. Even if you do no clinical work, having an MD/PhD makes it easier to get jobs. Furthermore, we are more likely to get grants. Having this degree also means that with minimal clinical work (like 1 month rounding or covering an easy service) you get a physician's salary.

4. You have no decisions to make at this point. Take the MCAT. If you do well, apply MSTP. If you do poorly, then you will have a decision to make. If you apply and get interviews, go. If you get accepted, THEN you'll have a hard decision to make. Don't stress out right now over relative minutia when tough decisions lay ahead.

 

[ecoli]

Thank you guys so much for this advice. You've really helped calm my nerves over this whole thing. I've been reading on SDN for a while today about other people's experiences, which sort of just made me more nervous for myself.

Meanwhile, I'm going to take gbwillner's advice on point #4, and continue to study hard for the MCATs. I already emailed the MSTP director at my school and asked for a meeting, just to get some perspective from an MD/PhD doing research and actively involved in a current program. Also, while everyone's advice here really helped me think through some things, obviously an in person interview will generally be superior to a forum (no offense intended).

Also, I'm going to see about shadowing an infectious disease person, or perhaps someone in internal medicine, which also interests me.

Once again, thank you for helping me out through a difficult decision, and showing me what my options are. You probably don't realize how much I appreciate you guys bringing me back to earth.

 

[achamess]

http://msm.stanford.edu/

Another possibility.

I hope other schools around the country begin to establish programs like this. I think it is a great option for people who want to do basic science with clear clinical relevance, but who don't need to be the one administering it.

Good questions e. coli.

 

[ecoli]

Here's a follow up question, actually initiated in a private conversation between achamess (who posted above).

What if I applied this year to MSTP programs, and got rejected. Would it be considered bad form to wait a year, do some great research (presumably) and re-apply next year?

Would retaking the MCATs the next year also be out of the question.

The benefits to this are obvious, especially if you do good research and get perhaps get a publication out of it. But would it look bad to have to re-apply?

Would it be better just to wait until the next year to apply for a first time around?

 

[Ariodant]

I don't see at this point why you would predict your current cycle to be a complete failure and prepare to reapply even before you apply the first time But if it turns out that you can't get your app in early, and you feel really hurried, and believe your app will be significantly strengthened by your activities during the year off, I would consider postponing the application till the next cycle. Reapplication is a long, tedious, wasteful uphill battle.

 

[ecoli]

I don't see at this point why you would predict your current cycle to be a complete failure and prepare to reapply even before you apply the first time

sorry... not high on the confidence right now.

But if it turns out that you can't get your app in early, and you feel really hurried, and believe your app will be significantly strengthened by your activities during the year off, I would consider postponing the application till the next cycle. Reapplication is a long, tedious, wasteful uphill battle.

thanks for the advice. That sounds like about what I was expecting.

 

[GWD]

I agree with Ariodant, in that I wouldn't put the horse before the cart in assuming you will not get in this year.

However, I completely disagree with their assessment that re-application is a waste of time.

That's what I did. I didn't get in the first time I applied, so I continued to do research for another year, and also took several of the same classes with the accepted students for non-degree credit.

I think this demonstrated to the committee that I was serious, and dedicated to what I was doing, and that I wasn't going to "go away" just because they told me no. Also, I'm sure another year of research, and a year of proving I could do well in the program classes didn't hurt either. The next cycle, they accepted me.

 

[Ariodant]

Maybe I should have elaborated to avoid confusion.

Reapplying is wasteful in that you have to be robbed twice by schools for app fees and travel expenses and your precious time. I by no means discourage people from reapplying if they face the reality of no acceptance, but don't carelessly throw yourself into that situation if you can. No one chooses to reapply if they can get in the first time. Therefore, if you have serious doubts about your current credentials/readiness, wait a year and apply when ready is better than rushing into the battle thinking "oh well I can just reapply, no big deal".

 

[dl2dp2]

Unless you absloutely can't stand medicine, I strongly suggest against doing "just" a PhD. Anything else is an acceptable pathway.

In the current funding climate, the job market for bio PhD, even for top schools, is poor. NIH funding does run in cycles, but overall the trend has been quite scary. There is no career development pathway for PhDs, no support, no security.

You can do an MD, then do a residency + fellowship and do research during/after fellowship. NIH has loan forgiveness programs to help out with the tuition. There are transitional "career development" K-grants for MDs. Generally if you are fairly good you can get an offer of faculty, at least at the school where you did your residency, and most certainly in the geographical area you want to live. Of course you'd have to take a pay cut compared to your private practice colleagues.

You can also do an MD/PhD. The advantage here is no tuition and a slow-paced PhD can be good training, especially if you want to broaden your research horizon. Same postdoctoral pathway as MD-only people. Wider range of residency choices (MDs can get into rad onc, for instance, but with difficulty). Usually more offers for faculty jobs.

Again, I repeat, do NOT do just a PhD in the biomedical field, unless you absloutely cannot stand medicine. And remember medicine does not equal patients. There is pathology and radiology and etc.

 

[GWD]

Maybe I should have elaborated to avoid confusion.

Reapplying is wasteful in that you have to be robbed twice by schools for app fees and travel expenses and your precious time. I by no means discourage people from reapplying if they face the reality of no acceptance, but don't carelessly throw yourself into that situation if you can. No one chooses to reapply if they can get in the first time. Therefore, if you have serious doubts about your current credentials/readiness, wait a year and apply when ready is better than rushing into the battle thinking "oh well I can just reapply, no big deal".

Well I still sorta disagree.

If you feel as though you are prepared, try as soon as you are ready.

I left an industry job making $66k for a $24,000 stipend, and I couldn't be more happy.

OP can do what they think is right, but a $185 application fee is nothing in the long run to try to evaluate what they are interested in doing for the rest of their life.

In fact... here's a sexy idea.. get in good with a well-funded investigator, get an awesome LOR and have those application fees absorbed as part of your benefits

 

[ecoli]

Well I still sorta disagree.

If you feel as though you are prepared, try as soon as you are ready.

I feel that I'm ready to apply, and that I could potentially get accepted... but it depends on what MCAT scores I get and probably who else is applying with me. I'm probably only going to apply to one Ivy Leaguer as a stretch.

I left an industry job making $66k for a $24,000 stipend, and I couldn't be more happy.

Making money is not a big deal for me either.

OP can do what they think is right, but a $185 application fee is nothing in the long run to try to evaluate what they are interested in doing for the rest of their life.

In fact... here's a sexy idea.. get in good with a well-funded investigator, get an awesome LOR and have those application fees absorbed as part of your benefits

Well, I'm getting paid $11 bucks an hour from my PI right now, through his grant. So, by the end of the summer I should be able to finance my own applications with relatively no problems. Also, I have money that my parents put away for me for college, but never touched because I go to a state school with a half scholarship.

Also, the majority of the schools I'm applying to are in New York city or in the surrounding states, which is accessible by train or car, so it doesn't look like I'm going to go into debt applying to schools.

 

[Ariodant]

You have no control over whoelse is applying with you, and likely you won't get to meet them all to evaluate the whole crowd, so I won't worry about it. If you feel that your MCAT is your only uncertainty, then I'd say go ahead with the application, and make sure you study your butt off for the MCAT. Although if I were you, I would try to boost my GPA a little...

 

[ecoli]

You have no control over whoelse is applying with you, and likely you won't get to meet them all to evaluate the whole crowd, so I won't worry about it. If you feel that your MCAT is your only uncertainty, then I'd say go ahead with the application, and make sure you study your butt off for the MCAT. Although if I were you, I would try to boost my GPA a little...

Wish I could (without some serious and illegal bribery, heh). However, I got some unfortunate grades in my biochemistry class this year. I won't have an opportunity to take classes before the semester. In the fall, I'm taking some interesting classes, which I'm going to study my ass of to improve my grades. Do schools see those fall grades?

And MCAT studying is going pretty well, so far. I haven't deviated from my study plan much. Though the time it takes just to do the application (esp. essays) is starting to eat a bit into my MCAT study time.

 

[Ariodant]

You can send them the updated transcript when the grades are out. Some may even ask for it.