Should I do an SMP/How to improve my application?

[rukia013]

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I am starting to think about reapplying for a future cycle (probably 2017-2018) since I am currently waitlisted at 3 schools + 1 decision pending + 0 acceptances. Based on previous feedback from other SDNers, it seemed that my application itself was decent and my problem was most likely lack of better writing/interviewing skills. Obviously as a reapplicant, I can't say that I've improved because I "became a better writer/interviewer" so I'm wondering how I can best add to my application so that I can show some tangible improvement (ie. better GPA, more ECs, etc.)

I am thinking about applying to SMP/Post-Bacc programs but:

1) Would it be worth it, considering that I graduated with a 3.6 sGPA/3.7 cGPA (with a 3.9 GPA during senior year) and a 32 MCAT? I know that these programs are meant to be academic record enhancers and to provide you with more exposure to "upper division"-type science courses, but given my stats and my course background as a molecular toxicology major, would doing this program make my application stand out more or is it more 'neutral' since my GPA/MCAT/major aren't in need of drastic improvement?

2) Even though many of these types of programs have deadlines in the spring/summer, would I still have a chance of being accepted if I apply now since decisions are rolling? It seems like most people applied back in January (I was still interviewing then).

There are more details about my ECs in my MDapps (http://www.mdapplicants.com/profile.php?id=30930) but here's the run-down:

Clinical Experiences:
-pediatrician & anesthesiologist shadowing
-currently volunteering at mental health hospital (lots of patient interactions and auditing patient charts); >1 year
Leadership:
-Upper div physiology TA
-Sunday School teacher
-Home group/Bible study leader
-Worship team vocalist
-deviantART group administrator/moderator
Non-Clinical Volunteering:
-Anti-sex trafficking mission trip
-Undergrad student ambassador (tour guide & blogger)
-Children's Hospital Thalassemia Outreach Program volunteer
Extracurriculars:
-A Capella (soprano, beatbox, choreographer)
-traditional/digital artist
-Christian fellowship/church involvement

**no research since my major had a lot of that built into the curriculum; no formal work experience during college

Updates to my app since applying:
-took intro to soc course at local cc (grade A)
-added hundreds of clinical volunteer hours at the mental health hospital (had less than 50 when initially applying but mentioned on app that it was expected 400+ hours)
-art shop/business launches this May at a convention (est. 100,000+ attendance)

TL;DR: Given my stats/backgrounds/ECs, is it worth it for me to apply to SMP/Post-bacc programs or should I try to enhance my application in a different way?

 

[GrapesofRath]

Look most of SDN will tell you "Youre out of your mind doing an SMP with a 3.7/32" but I can see your logic. Your issue isnt with your ECs; like you said it is likely with the written parts of your app and the interview. The biggest problem is you are a reapplicant at so many places because you applied to so many schools. SMPs in general are expensive and risky so there's always a need for caution before pursuing one.

But if MD is the end goal what Id do in your shoes is
a) Assess how much youve done to improve your app in the past year. Do you think much has changed? If you were to take a gap year and apply next year would much change you think in terms of your ECs? Everything looks fine on the surface but as a reapp the standards are higher. If you dont think much has changed, you are correct in assuming its probably not smart to reapply.
b)Try to figure out the schools you wont be a reapplicant at and how many are realistic options for you. If you can come up with a decent list of schools from this, try your hand at that and then look at an SMP if that application doesnt work.

If after looking through it like that, then yes an SMP might perhaps be worth consideration in this case. Keep in mind your fine for all DO schools but if MD is the end goal an SMP might be something to consider. In particular you have Rosalind IS that is known for taking about roughly 55/130 SMP students into their MD school each year(and the avg SMP student at Rosalind has a 3.2/27 which you are way above indicating you have the academic abilities for it. Still a gamble but it might be a worthwhile one).

 

[GrapesofRath]

I would strongly advise that you do not need an SMP or post-bacc . Trying to use academic improvement to overcome deficits in writing and interviewing (which are likely noted in your current application evaluation) is simply a waste of money, time and effort

With writing and interview skills, you dont tell that you have improved , you show them! You do so by writing a great application (not simply decent) and by having a great interview. A medical school application (including primary, secondary, and interview) is a concise, coherent, and compelling narrative showing a strong pattern of motivation, commitment, and achievement. Your expression of this in your written app and more likely your interview, is what you should work on. Indeed, an application is the first step I always advise for applicants

First, you have your application critical examined by people who do not know you well. This is, obviously, how the adcom will see you and the only picture they will know about your. I frequently find making each EC's are not the short, tight paragraph they need to be. The PS and the secondaries similarly need to be made into a well-crafted coherent and compelling story.

Second, you need to get interview practice for both traditional and MMI.

I'll share my thought process: tell me where you disagree.

1) The thing is the OP is going to be a reapplicant at so many schools(look at their MD apps there's at least 40 schools). It'd be one thing if there were a blatant flaw in the ECs or academics(ie no clinical experience bad MCAT) but there isnt here at all. It'd be another if they had plenty of schools they were a first time applicant for next cycle; that's not the case.
2) If interviewing skills were suspect last cycle will a school that gave an interview last cycle want to give one again? There are schools like gyngyn's that typically dont re-interview applicants because they feel that the deficits that cause a poor interview arent likely to be fixed in a year. Worth noting the OP got a II at their only state school. It's a gamble.
3) Also the ECs were fairly well rounded here. Here is a question for you interested to hear your thoughts: if OP reapplies with essentially the same ECs and stats and just rewrites different essays, is that really going to be considered much improvement even if the essays are better? Will a school that rejected him last year suddenly be interested with the same ECs/stats but different essays?

Is an SMP really a waste of time?
If you want to say there are better uses of time that's one thing or is too risky that's one thing. But an SMP provides you a clear blatant advantage at that host instiution if they have a good track record of taking many SMP students. It provides you a clear advantage at schools they often send their grads to(feeders per se). It sounds like a gamble to reapply to the same schools with the same parts and just different essays. Maybe an SMP is a gamble, but there are clear tangible benefits. As an example with Rosalind Franklin(which is nearby for them), if you are in the top half of the SMP class in performance, the vast majority of the people with that rank historically will get into their MD school. If you apply as a regular applicant, you dont get that advantage at all. Considering the OP has a 3.7/32 and the average SMP student at a program like that are published at 3.2/27, that seems like a potential avenue to at least ponder.

I dont think you can definitely say "OP should do an SMP" at all but to immeadiately disregard it Im not sure I agree. Sometimes a reapplicant needs an "artifical boost" per se to separate themselves and get them over the top: an SMP might be that.

 

[midwestisbest]

I would strongly advise that you do not need an SMP or post-bacc . Trying to use academic improvement to overcome deficits in writing and interviewing (which are likely noted in your current application evaluation) is simply a waste of money, time and effort

With writing and interview skills, you dont tell that you have improved , you show them! You do so by writing a great application (not simply decent) and by having a great interview. A medical school application (including primary, secondary, and interview) is a concise, coherent, and compelling narrative showing a strong pattern of motivation, commitment, and achievement. Your expression of this in your written app and more likely your interview, is what you should work on. Indeed, an application is the first step I always advise for applicants

First, you have your application critical examined by people who do not know you well. This is, obviously, how the adcom will see you and the only picture they will know about your. I frequently find making each EC's are not the short, tight paragraph they need to be. The PS and the secondaries similarly need to be made into a well-crafted coherent and compelling story.

Second, you need to get interview practice for both traditional and MMI.

I agree with @gonnif

I was basically you last year - with a little less success. 3.7, 32, 1 II and no acceptances. I reapplied this year to fewer schools, had 4II, 2A, 1WL, didn't attend the other. Continue to bolster your application, and you'll make it. SMP is not worth the $$$$. With that many IIs this time around, you're doing something right. Practice interviewing, and don't count yourself out this time around - 3 WL spots taken together probably leave you with a pretty decent chance of nabbing an admission..

 

[SpartyParty1992]

how are your letters of rec? haven't seen those mentioned.

 

[rukia013]

Look most of SDN will tell you "Youre out of your mind doing an SMP with a 3.7/32" but I can see your logic. Your issue isnt with your ECs; like you said it is likely with the written parts of your app and the interview. The biggest problem is you are a reapplicant at so many places because you applied to so many schools. SMPs in general are expensive and risky so there's always a need for caution before pursuing one.

But if MD is the end goal what Id do in your shoes is
a) Assess how much youve done to improve your app in the past year. Do you think much has changed? If you were to take a gap year and apply next year would much change you think in terms of your ECs? Everything looks fine on the surface but as a reapp the standards are higher. If you dont think much has changed, you are correct in assuming its probably not smart to reapply.
b)Try to figure out the schools you wont be a reapplicant at and how many are realistic options for you. If you can come up with a decent list of schools from this, try your hand at that and then look at an SMP if that application doesnt work.

If after looking through it like that, then yes an SMP might perhaps be worth consideration in this case. Keep in mind your fine for all DO schools but if MD is the end goal an SMP might be something to consider. In particular you have Rosalind IS that is known for taking about roughly 55/130 SMP students into their MD school each year(and the avg SMP student at Rosalind has a 3.2/27 which you are way above indicating you have the academic abilities for it. Still a gamble but it might be a worthwhile one).

Thanks for the insight! In terms of app improvement, I can probably think of 2 or 3 activities that can be added (the tricky thing is that I maxed out my 15 activities even with combining multiple activities into one slot during this past cycle) and add hundreds of hours for clinical volunteering. The thing is that these activities would be considered fairly recent if I were to apply this upcoming 2016-2017 cycle; is it better to gain more hours first (ie. take a year off to do the activities) especially as a reapplicant?

The other thing I need to consider is if I were to take a year off (or do an SMP first), I risk my MCAT expiring since I took it December 2014. I heard that most schools only accept MCAT scores up to 3 years so if I were to apply during 2017-2018, would it be considered expired? (even though it would technically expire December 2017)?

Also, if I were to apply to SMP, do they have some sort of "yield protection" since my stats are already pretty high compared to the average SMP applicant?

I agree with @gonnif

I was basically you last year - with a little less success. 3.7, 32, 1 II and no acceptances. I reapplied this year to fewer schools, had 4II, 2A, 1WL, didn't attend the other. Continue to bolster your application, and you'll make it. SMP is not worth the $$$$. With that many IIs this time around, you're doing something right. Practice interviewing, and don't count yourself out this time around - 3 WL spots taken together probably leave you with a pretty decent chance of nabbing an admission..

Wow that's incredible--good for you! May I ask how you were able to improve your app such that you were able to apply the consecutive cycle and be successful? (feel free to PM me instead if that's what you prefer)

how are your letters of rec? haven't seen those mentioned.

LoRs are hard to gauge since I can't see them but they were from professors who knew me well; my two science letter writers have written med school letters before, and I had one TA with whom I "co-taught" a lab course (if anything, he probably knows me the best).

Thank you everyone who has given me feedback so far! I really appreciate it, especially getting to hear different perspectives 🙂

 

[ifnotnowwren]

I'm curious...if there were a perceived issue with interview skills (that wasn't something like arrogance or a personality disorder, but more along the lines of shyness or nervousness), would it be at all helpful for the applicant to enroll in a public speaking class or club in order to have a concrete activity that shows that they have been working on that? Or would it be negligible?

 

[Dr.NickRiviera]

You'd be well placed for Temple's ACMS program, which has a guaranteed acceptance into Temple Med if you get above 3.5 gpa in the program. It's the only SMP with a guaranteed linkage but because of that, applicants have crazy high stats (good enough to get into med school!) so not a great program for people who truly need gpa repair. But this is where you come in!

Tulane ACP (they've got other programs, ignore them) has an unofficial linkage into Tulane Med but they usually take ~90% of their class. You need to be on a med school waitlist to even apply and again, with the unofficial but high linkage, applicants generally have great stats already.

Regardless of whether you get into an SMP or not, you'll have to improve your interviewing skills and your writing skills. Even with linkage, you're going to have to apply and interview again. If you come off terribly, well, even linkage might not save you.

 

[tantacles]

Thanks for the insight! In terms of app improvement, I can probably think of 2 or 3 activities that can be added (the tricky thing is that I maxed out my 15 activities even with combining multiple activities into one slot during this past cycle) and add hundreds of hours for clinical volunteering. The thing is that these activities would be considered fairly recent if I were to apply this upcoming 2016-2017 cycle; is it better to gain more hours first (ie. take a year off to do the activities) especially as a reapplicant?

The other thing I need to consider is if I were to take a year off (or do an SMP first), I risk my MCAT expiring since I took it December 2014. I heard that most schools only accept MCAT scores up to 3 years so if I were to apply during 2017-2018, would it be considered expired? (even though it would technically expire December 2017)?

If you have to retake the MCAT, retake it, but don't apply with an application that is largely the same as last year just because you might need to retake the MCAT. If you apply again in the coming year, it is absolutely impossible that your application will have improved.

As far as your activities are concerned, just remove some! Remove the oldest or the least significant and put in something new, but there must be some sort of change, and there should be positive change in as many portions of your application as possible, including volunteering, LoR's, personal statement, and research (it would definitely help to have this as an explicit category).

 

[rukia013]

You'd be well placed for Temple's ACMS program, which has a guaranteed acceptance into Temple Med if you get above 3.5 gpa in the program. It's the only SMP with a guaranteed linkage but because of that, applicants have crazy high stats (good enough to get into med school!) so not a great program for people who truly need gpa repair. But this is where you come in!

Tulane ACP (they've got other programs, ignore them) has an unofficial linkage into Tulane Med but they usually take ~90% of their class. You need to be on a med school waitlist to even apply and again, with the unofficial but high linkage, applicants generally have great stats already.

Regardless of whether you get into an SMP or not, you'll have to improve your interviewing skills and your writing skills. Even with linkage, you're going to have to apply and interview again. If you come off terribly, well, even linkage might not save you.

Thanks for the info! Unfortunately I am currently waitlisted at Temple so wouldn't it seem strange that I am applying to their post-bacc program as well? (especially since they get to pull my AMCAS app if I apply)

I will definitely look into Tulane ACP though!

 

[GrapesofRath]

Rule 1: Take a Breath


Rule 1: Take a Breath

Fantastic post, very insightful. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

My first thought is as a reapplicant the standards are high and in many ways you are starting over. The idea "you were so close last time" can be a little deceiving; you might not necessairly be so close as a reapplicant, especially if you are trouting out a very similar app in terms of ECs/stats. So if you apply again with the same app will you really get 4 IIs again? No great answer obviously but its a real question to consider. Better interviewing skills dont mount for much if you struggle getting interviews next time around.

I think one way I look at this is that yes SMPs are academic remediators. 90% of the time that's what you use them for. But we dont have to confine them to just one purpose. Every case is unique and while an SMP's intended purpose isnt to make up for other deficiencies, sometimes it can help in making them less detrimental. With an SMP, in many ways you can potentially limit the effect of a middling interview or essay. As a regular applicant, you need to beat out so many applicants the standard at an interview could be "impress" or at least "come across reasonably/fairly strong". At an SMP, there's a clear standard; hit a certain performance level at the SMP and you are very likely to be accepted based off historical norm to that host school in an example like Rosalind particularly with OP's MCAT. Youre at a huge advantage pre-interview in other words. In some ways you might say the standard for interviewing goes from "impress" to perhaps "dont screw up anything and youll be ok". If someone is academically strong and capable of doing well in that SMP but isnt great at interviews/essays, this set up could help them. This could be the OP.

I hate over simplifying things but in some ways but in some ways this might come down to deciding between which of the following has better odds
a) Take your chances again but as a reapplicant. New essays, better interviewing skills and hope that's the difference between 3 IIs and an acceptance.
b) Go into an SMP. Finish in the top 40-50% of a class where the average is around 3.2-3.4/27-28 with your 3.7/32 and youll face great odds of an acceptance.

It's not an easy decision. Money has to be considered here as well. The SMP could easily be the wrong call. Or maybe reapply once more then consider the SMP if still unsuccessful. But I think it's a decision that should at least be given some consideration. All I can give is my opinion and this wouldnt be an easy call at all if I were in this position. But the more and more I look at the two options I listed, the more my gut tells me b) might be the one with more favorable odds of working out. But I say that with absolutely zero definitivity.

 

[rukia013]

As a regular applicant, you need to beat out so many applicants the standard at an interview could be "impress" or at least "come across reasonably/fairly strong". At an SMP, there's a clear standard; hit a certain performance level at the SMP and you are very likely to be accepted based off historical norm to that host school in an example like Rosalind particularly with OP's MCAT. Youre at a huge advantage pre-interview in other words. In some ways you might say the standard for interviewing goes from "impress" to perhaps "dont screw up anything and youll be ok". If someone is academically strong and capable of doing well in that SMP but isnt great at interviews/essays, this set up could help them. This could be the OP.

I hate over simplifying things but in some ways but in some ways this might come down to deciding between which of the following has better odds
a) Take your chances again but as a reapplicant. New essays, better interviewing skills and hope that's the difference between 3 IIs and an acceptance.
b) Go into an SMP. Finish in the top 40-50% of a class where the average is around 3.2-3.4/27-28 with your 3.7/32 and youll face great odds of an acceptance.

While doing an SMP greatly improves my chances of getting accepted at that school if I do well, do you think doing an SMP would look better on my application given my stats/ECs/background as opposed to taking a year off to add more clinical experience/volunteering and maybe taking a course on public speaking if I'm applying to the other schools as a reapplicant? I can see how doing an SMP would be the better choice if I feel that that school is a good fit for me, but what if I'm doing the SMP just to improve my application? Basically right now I feel that EVMS and Temple are two schools that seem to be a perfect fit for my goals and I know that both have SMP programs that nearly guarantee acceptance to their MD program if you do well in the SMP...but unfortunately those are two schools that I'm currently waitlisted at. If I were to do an SMP elsewhere, I would probably still apply to those two schools as a reapplicant so that's another reason I am still on the fence...

On the flip side, would it be strange to apply to EVMS and Temple's SMP program this cycle even though my MD application is still active? I can see how in one way it shows that I am still very interested in their school and still want to consider them as my "backup plan" if I don't land an acceptance...or is it viewed negatively since they have already waitlisted me and therefore aren't as interested in me even if I'm applying for an SMP and competing against a different pool of applicants?

And THANK YOU SO MUCH to you and @gonnif for taking the time to write such helpful responses so far! You don't know how much I truly appreciate it 😀

 

[GrapesofRath]

While doing an SMP greatly improves my chances of getting accepted at that school if I do well, do you think doing an SMP would look better on my application given my stats/ECs/background as opposed to taking a year off to add more clinical experience/volunteering and maybe taking a course on public speaking if I'm applying to the other schools as a reapplicant? I can see how doing an SMP would be the better choice if I feel that that school is a good fit for me, but what if I'm doing the SMP just to improve my application? Basically right now I feel that EVMS and Temple are two schools that seem to be a perfect fit for my goals and I know that both have SMP programs that nearly guarantee acceptance to their MD program if you do well in the SMP...but unfortunately those are two schools that I'm currently waitlisted at. If I were to do an SMP elsewhere, I would probably still apply to those two schools as a reapplicant so that's another reason I am still on the fence...

On the flip side, would it be strange to apply to EVMS and Temple's SMP program this cycle even though my MD application is still active? I can see how in one way it shows that I am still very interested in their school and still want to consider them as my "backup plan" if I don't land an acceptance...or is it viewed negatively since they have already waitlisted me and therefore aren't as interested in me even if I'm applying for an SMP and competing against a different pool of applicants?

And THANK YOU SO MUCH to you and @gonnif for taking the time to write such helpful responses so far! You don't know how much I truly appreciate it 😀

Im going to steal gonnif's favorite line for a second here; take a deep breathe.

1) Wait and see how these waitlists turn out. If one of them works out, this is all moot.
2) Spend some time beginning to reflect back on your app cycle. Go through everything you submitted; secondaries, PS etc with a fine tooth comb. Get input from as many people as possible.
3) Go through your interviews and how you prepared for them and evaluate how you went. Practice MMI and other interview techniques. See where you went wrong and actively try to improve on that; its a skill that will carry on far beyond med school interviews.
4) Take some time and reflect. Take a look at an SMP and it's price tag. Is that something your interested in. Take a look at what an SMP entails: taking an MS1 courseload with tons of pressure and stress to do well. Is that something you are interested in. If one of these things causes concern for you, then an SMP likely isnt for you.
5) Get as much input as you can. I gave you my opinion and Im obviously in the minority. If you keep asking people more knowledgeable than me like gonnif and they say do not do an SMP, then you should weigh that heavily. I didnt say do an SMP. I said consider it. Only you can decide if an SMP is right for you and you have lots of things to consider. Continue to get input and continue to ask ADCOMs and others you know for feedback. Call schools and ask for feedback. In particular try to get as much feedback as you can muster from UIC.
6) Regardless of whether you do an SMP or take a gap year to build your resume etc you are going to have to reapply and rewrite your PS, secondaries etc. Spend time thinking how youll approach them differently and come up with a plan.
7) If you are serious about the SMP idea at the very least you need to do all the research you can on any program you are interested in. Go through this sites forum which has a thread every year for the big name SMP programs. See what people post about hte programs. Message people in the program or who did it for feedback and advice. You dont take the plunge here with something like this without very thoroughly checking it out and seeing if it is best for you.

Take everything one step at a time. Many of these questions you are posing you are going to have to answer for yourself; the way to do it is to come up with questions like I posted above and start thinking about them.

 

[Sause Baus]

Wow you seem like a really good fit for Creighton. They have around a 3.75 and 30 MCAT median with a STRONG emphasis on non-clinical volunteering. Most of their incoming class are also from cali. Any reason you didn't apply here this cycle?

 

[rukia013]

Wow you seem like a really good fit for Creighton. They have around a 3.75 and 30 MCAT median with a STRONG emphasis on non-clinical volunteering. Most of their incoming class are also from cali. Any reason you didn't apply here this cycle?

I actually realized that I should have applied to Creighton but this was after I had already submitted secondaries to my already-extensive list of schools. I compiled my list using MSAR and I don't remember seeing Creighton after I applied the filters...Do they require research? I think that was one of the biggest things that I did NOT want when looking at med schools. I'll look into adding them if I need to apply in a future cycle!

 

[GrapesofRath]

Its "Rule 1: Take a Breath!" get it right

Just because I advise it doesnt mean its right ether. As @GrapesofRath says think about it. I just think it is way overkill for you

There's that and there's me putting an "e" at the end of breath as "breathe" twice. Ill just take a mulligan all around for that.

The middle ground here might very well be reapply once more and if after 2 cycles you still cant get an acceptance, start thinking about an SMP.

 

[Sause Baus]

I actually realized that I should have applied to Creighton but this was after I had already submitted secondaries to my already-extensive list of schools. I compiled my list using MSAR and I don't remember seeing Creighton after I applied the filters...Do they require research? I think that was one of the biggest things that I did NOT want when looking at med schools. I'll look into adding them if I need to apply in a future cycle!

Most applicants that apply to Creighton do have research background but I don't think it's a requirement by any means. Also, seeing that they're a Jesuit institution, I definitely feel like your extensive church activities could connect with that in someway (even if you're not Catholic!). They also have a open door policy to discuss with applicants how "competitive" they are in terms of their application, so take advantage of that if you do decide to reapply!

In terms of your metrics, I think your mcat and gpa is fine and doesn't really warrant any sort of improvement). For improving your application however, maybe look into taking on more leadership roles in your clinical and non-clinical service experiences? And it certainly wouldn't hurt to continually update your wl schools on this as well!

And for interviews I found it EXTREMELY helpful for being SPECIFIC on why I wanted to attend a particular school. This creates a medium of understanding between you and the interviewer and facilitates the rest of the interview in a more memorable way.

I hope you get in this cycle, and lemme know if you have any other questions 🙂

 

[judb16]

My two cents, but I'd also consider looking at which schools you're applying to. It seems like you applied to a number of state schools. You're an Illinois resident, which doesn't help you for many of the schools you applied to. Stick to IS schools or private OOS schools as much as possible.

 

[deleted659912]

Your application looks good but is your MCAT score going to be valid for this upcoming cycle? Maybe you should create a research activity on AMCAS and discuss the papers/posters that you did for your curriculum.

 

[rukia013]

Your application looks good but is your MCAT score going to be valid for this upcoming cycle? Maybe you should create a research activity on AMCAS and discuss the papers/posters that you did for your curriculum.

If I have to reapply, I will probably wait until the 2017-2018 cycle since I feel that this upcoming cycle is too close to add anything substantial to my application (I can probably add 1-2 ECs and a few hundred hours of clinical volunteering but I'm not sure if that would be enough to show significant improvement). I took my MCAT in Dec 2014 so depending on whether schools do a strict 3 year deadline (ie. Dec 2017) or base it off just the year, then worst case scenario is that I have to unfortunately re-take it...

As for putting the curriculum research in the activities section, I'm not sure if they would consider that research since it was required for my classes--I feel that when med schools refer to research, they mean extracurricular research done with a PI that potentially leads to publications and such, especially since the research that I did in class was more structured for learning and there was an "end goal". However, if a secondary question asks about research experience, I would talk about the research I did for my classes.

 

[eugnandez]

Looking what OP listed, that seemed to support that premise

 

[KungFuPanda123]

How did you manage to apply to ~50 schools? Perhaps your secondaries weren't the strongest? I know that with my 15-20 schools, I felt burnt out writing those secondaries, and I only wrote like a third of what you did.

For those saying that your interviewing schools might be weak, that might be the case, but I want to point out that it is not surprising at all to not get an acceptance with 3 II's. Although it is common to get ~1 acceptance/3 II, there are plenty of normal people out there who fail to get an acceptance after even 4-5 II. Sometimes, Lady Luck is a crappy goddess.

That being said, your interview might be your problem, and you wouldn't even know it. I'm not saying that you are the type, but do you bring up your religion consistently throughout the interview? I understand how it's important to do so at some schools such as Loma Linda, but at most other schools, it is best to not bring it up unless the interviewer brings it up first (from looking at your application). Do you say during your interviews that it was thanks to God that you succeeded in X or was able to do Y or etc. etc.? I know that my college PI told me about how his least favorite interview was one where the interviewee kept attributing everything to God, and even though it's fine to think that on a personal level, it doesn't fly in a professional interview where the interviewer is looking for a substantive answer (one that he/she finds substantive). Again, I'm not saying that you do do this but I thought I would bring it up just in case - seeing how you interviewed at Loma Linda and appear to have a lot of Christianity EC's in your application.

I would recommend that you take a full year off before applying. You're going to have to re-take your MCAT, but I think that it is worthwhile to do so. You already know that to stand out as a re-applicant, you have to change up your application significantly. Although you don't like research and many of the people posting on here are saying to not bother spending too much time on it since your'e not a big fan, I recommend just doing it. Check off that box on your list of pre-med activities. Yes, it is not really necessary at some schools, but it sure as hell is useful. There's a reason why the top schools have ~95%+ of matriculants having done research. Even the least research oriented schools still have like a majority of students having done research. You've had some research experience, but I question how immersive it was if it didn't have to be its own AMCAS section. In my opinion, an activity can only really be called research if you had a PI with whom you worked in the lab under/with; you need to get a letter of rec from him/her to solidify your research activity. You could go ahead rounding out your application in every other way, but I feel like a big bottle-neck to your application that is not your interview/primary+secondary writing quality is your lack of real research. Check out the NIH post-bacc program; most PI's are looking for a 2-year commitment, which would be perfect for you. You can also just look into doing research in industry (a Bio degree from Cal shouldn't have an issue finding a decent tech job in industry - check out San Diego for some start-ups or big pharm).

 

[rukia013]

How did you manage to apply to ~50 schools? Perhaps your secondaries weren't the strongest? I know that with my 15-20 schools, I felt burnt out writing those secondaries, and I only wrote like a third of what you did.

For those saying that your interviewing schools might be weak, that might be the case, but I want to point out that it is not surprising at all to not get an acceptance with 3 II's. Although it is common to get ~1 acceptance/3 II, there are plenty of normal people out there who fail to get an acceptance after even 4-5 II. Sometimes, Lady Luck is a crappy goddess.

That being said, your interview might be your problem, and you wouldn't even know it. I'm not saying that you are the type, but do you bring up your religion consistently throughout the interview? I understand how it's important to do so at some schools such as Loma Linda, but at most other schools, it is best to not bring it up unless the interviewer brings it up first (from looking at your application). Do you say during your interviews that it was thanks to God that you succeeded in X or was able to do Y or etc. etc.? I know that my college PI told me about how his least favorite interview was one where the interviewee kept attributing everything to God, and even though it's fine to think that on a personal level, it doesn't fly in a professional interview where the interviewer is looking for a substantive answer (one that he/she finds substantive). Again, I'm not saying that you do do this but I thought I would bring it up just in case - seeing how you interviewed at Loma Linda and appear to have a lot of Christianity EC's in your application.

I would recommend that you take a full year off before applying. You're going to have to re-take your MCAT, but I think that it is worthwhile to do so. You already know that to stand out as a re-applicant, you have to change up your application significantly. Although you don't like research and many of the people posting on here are saying to not bother spending too much time on it since your'e not a big fan, I recommend just doing it. Check off that box on your list of pre-med activities. Yes, it is not really necessary at some schools, but it sure as hell is useful. There's a reason why the top schools have ~95%+ of matriculants having done research. Even the least research oriented schools still have like a majority of students having done research. You've had some research experience, but I question how immersive it was if it didn't have to be its own AMCAS section. In my opinion, an activity can only really be called research if you had a PI with whom you worked in the lab under/with; you need to get a letter of rec from him/her to solidify your research activity. You could go ahead rounding out your application in every other way, but I feel like a big bottle-neck to your application that is not your interview/primary+secondary writing quality is your lack of real research. Check out the NIH post-bacc program; most PI's are looking for a 2-year commitment, which would be perfect for you. You can also just look into doing research in industry (a Bio degree from Cal shouldn't have an issue finding a decent tech job in industry - check out San Diego for some start-ups or big pharm).

How I managed to apply to 54 schools: I slaved away at writing essays the entire month of July--I literally woke up, wrote, went to bed. I'm pretty good about prioritizing/time management and getting things done when they need to get done. How did I not burn out? I actually did, near the end when I had ~3-5 schools left, but my trick is to actually factor in time for procrastination. So I guess my schedule was more wake up, Tumblr, write essays, Tumblr, go to bed 😛 The fact that I sent in so many secondaries but only landed 4 interviews tells me that my biggest problem was probably my writing, especially since I was getting rejections from schools that weren't necessarily reach schools ie. Drexel, Tulane, Rosalind Franklin, etc.

And even though my faith is very important to me, I never bring it up anywhere (in my essays, interviews, etc.) unless they specifically ask about it. Also I did not interview at Loma Linda; not sure where you saw that.

I personally don't think the lack of research is what influenced my unsuccessful cycle--it was actually a big thing that I was worried about and many people told me that research is not necessary. I think most premeds do research with the intent of making their application look good, but then you hear about the 4.0's with lots of research and pubs that don't get into med school because they lack the volunteer work and other clinical experiences. I think in the end, it boils down to the question of "do you know what you're getting yourself into?" so if I show that I do have a passion for medicine through means other than research, I see nothing wrong with that. Yes, the % of matriculants with a research background is high, but I don't think it's because schools are specifically selecting for candidates with research. And yes, it would probably be somewhat easy to find some kind of research opportunity in California with a bio degree from Cal but living in a suburb in the Midwest where most people don't even know where UC Berkeley is or have never heard of it is a different story.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

How I managed to apply to 54 schools: I slaved away at writing essays the entire month of July--I literally woke up, wrote, went to bed. I'm pretty good about prioritizing/time management and getting things done when they need to get done. How did I not burn out? I actually did, near the end when I had ~3-5 schools left, but my trick is to actually factor in time for procrastination. So I guess my schedule was more wake up, Tumblr, write essays, Tumblr, go to bed 😛 The fact that I sent in so many secondaries but only landed 4 interviews tells me that my biggest problem was probably my writing, especially since I was getting rejections from schools that weren't necessarily reach schools ie. Drexel, Tulane, Rosalind Franklin, etc.

And even though my faith is very important to me, I never bring it up anywhere (in my essays, interviews, etc.) unless they specifically ask about it. Also I did not interview at Loma Linda; not sure where you saw that.

I personally don't think the lack of research is what influenced my unsuccessful cycle--it was actually a big thing that I was worried about and many people told me that research is not necessary. I think most premeds do research with the intent of making their application look good, but then you hear about the 4.0's with lots of research and pubs that don't get into med school because they lack the volunteer work and other clinical experiences. I think in the end, it boils down to the question of "do you know what you're getting yourself into?" so if I show that I do have a passion for medicine through means other than research, I see nothing wrong with that. Yes, the % of matriculants with a research background is high, but I don't think it's because schools are specifically selecting for candidates with research. And yes, it would probably be somewhat easy to find some kind of research opportunity in California with a bio degree from Cal but living in a suburb in the Midwest where most people don't even know where UC Berkeley is or have never heard of it is a different story.

Oh oops, I thought that I had read that you had interviewed there on your MDapps - must've misread. Much respect to you for your study skills/ability to focus; I wish I were born with a little more of that and a little less of the 'ol easily distrac- oooo a shiny object!

I totally agree with you on your perspective on research. I mean, it's not meant for everyone, and there are plenty of schools out there that don't require research at all. Certainly, the concept that research is basically required is partially self-selected for, since so many people do it with the assumption that it is mandatory. I was just saying that in my opinion, it is probably the single best thing you could do for your application. Obviously, if your heart is not into research/your research at all, you won't get that much personally out of it, but it could be a great "fake it til you make it" experience hahaha. I know that I don't want to do research for the rest of my life, but I was at least "ok" with it enough to do it even though it was more to add to my med school application/future residency application than for the sheer thrill of bench research. But whatever you do, I'm sure it'll be groovy 🙂

Really??? I feel like Cal is world-famous; at least all my family members in Chicago (i.e. the suburbs around the city ahaha) know about it. Well, I'm really wishing you the best - med school applications are a pain. I recognize your name from the UIC thread, and I know that we're both on UIC's endless post-interview hold. Hopefully it turns out well for you, and if not, second time'll be the charm!

 

[tantacles]

If I have to reapply, I will probably wait until the 2017-2018 cycle since I feel that this upcoming cycle is too close to add anything substantial to my application (I can probably add 1-2 ECs and a few hundred hours of clinical volunteering but I'm not sure if that would be enough to show significant improvement). I took my MCAT in Dec 2014 so depending on whether schools do a strict 3 year deadline (ie. Dec 2017) or base it off just the year, then worst case scenario is that I have to unfortunately re-take it...

As for putting the curriculum research in the activities section, I'm not sure if they would consider that research since it was required for my classes--I feel that when med schools refer to research, they mean extracurricular research done with a PI that potentially leads to publications and such, especially since the research that I did in class was more structured for learning and there was an "end goal". However, if a secondary question asks about research experience, I would talk about the research I did for my classes.

It sounds like you're being realistic about your chances. Awesome. I look forward to seeing you have a strong application cycle in 2017-2018. Your plan seems extremely solid.

 

[rukia013]

Oh oops, I thought that I had read that you had interviewed there on your MDapps - must've misread. Much respect to you for your study skills/ability to focus; I wish I were born with a little more of that and a little less of the 'ol easily distrac- oooo a shiny object!

I totally agree with you on your perspective on research. I mean, it's not meant for everyone, and there are plenty of schools out there that don't require research at all. Certainly, the concept that research is basically required is partially self-selected for, since so many people do it with the assumption that it is mandatory. I was just saying that in my opinion, it is probably the single best thing you could do for your application. Obviously, if your heart is not into research/your research at all, you won't get that much personally out of it, but it could be a great "fake it til you make it" experience hahaha. I know that I don't want to do research for the rest of my life, but I was at least "ok" with it enough to do it even though it was more to add to my med school application/future residency application than for the sheer thrill of bench research. But whatever you do, I'm sure it'll be groovy 🙂

Really??? I feel like Cal is world-famous; at least all my family members in Chicago (i.e. the suburbs around the city ahaha) know about it. Well, I'm really wishing you the best - med school applications are a pain. I recognize your name from the UIC thread, and I know that we're both on UIC's endless post-interview hold. Hopefully it turns out well for you, and if not, second time'll be the charm!

I definitely was not born with that level of focus and concentration; I think it's something that you have to force yourself into doing, kind of like self-discipline. Being a premed at Cal is brutal (I'm sure that it's like that at many universities, but when the student population is well over 50% Asian, you literally have give it your all if you want to survive). The atmosphere on campus was definitely one where you felt like you had to be productive all the time, to the point where my friends and I almost looked forward to going back to school when we were on breaks (spring, summer, winter breaks) because we felt bad for not doing anything LOL. I think being in that kind of environment really helped me build my strong work/study ethic.

I definitely agree with you that "mandatory research" is a big misconception many premeds have. I'm definitely open to clinical research and being able to work with human subjects (I did get certified to do that) but I think being in a lab for hours would drive me crazy. But who knows; if I see an opportunity for research I'll definitely take it and give it a try 😀

I guess from my experiences, people who haven't heard of Cal are ones who either don't have children who have been to uni yet or they only have knowledge of the surrounding community colleges or the state schools. I mean, everyone has heard of Ivy League, Stanford, MIT, etc. but I think in general Cal is not a school universally known...even if it's the #1 public university lol. (I mean, in my high school graduating class of ~630, I was the only person who applied to that school so I guess it just depends...)

 

[Dr.NickRiviera]

Thanks for the info! Unfortunately I am currently waitlisted at Temple so wouldn't it seem strange that I am applying to their post-bacc program as well? (especially since they get to pull my AMCAS app if I apply)

I will definitely look into Tulane ACP though!

Don't know if you got an official answer to your question already but just in case, I'm pretty sure that your application to their post-bac program will not affect your waitlist position. One, the MD adcom and SMP adcom are usually completely different and separate and two, a waitlist says you may or may not receive an acceptance. Who would fault you for preparing for the worst? In fact, I would think that most people would commend you for your forward thinking and planning.

I noticed that you were considering EVMS as well. Now, this is coming from a pre-med so take it with a grain of salt (but I've had low gpa problems so I've researched the **** out of SMPs), I don't think you should consider attending any SMP that doesn't have a near linkage to their host med school. An SMP is a gamble because if you do badly, you're now completely screwed for med school. Also, it's really expensive and it'll be a really difficult year. For someone who has a low gpa and has no other options, it's kind of like a last ditch attempt. I think you've hit all the marks for a great med school application so I don't think a traditional SMP would really be worth it for you. I only recommended Temple ACMS and the Tulane ACP because they're more or less a sureshot, which I think would be the only thing worth the money and the pain of an SMP for you.

Also, please look into EVMS's SMP on the post-bacc forum before you apply/attend. In the past they had a great linkage rate but much recently, they've been expanding their SMP class (up to 100 now, I think) but they haven't been accepting more students from the SMP class so linkage has dropped tremendously.

 

[rukia013]

Don't know if you got an official answer to your question already but just in case, I'm pretty sure that your application to their post-bac program will not affect your waitlist position. One, the MD adcom and SMP adcom are usually completely different and separate and two, a waitlist says you may or may not receive an acceptance. Who would fault you for preparing for the worst? In fact, I would think that most people would commend you for your forward thinking and planning.

I noticed that you were considering EVMS as well. Now, this is coming from a pre-med so take it with a grain of salt (but I've had low gpa problems so I've researched the **** out of SMPs), I don't think you should consider attending any SMP that doesn't have a near linkage to their host med school. An SMP is a gamble because if you do badly, you're now completely screwed for med school. Also, it's really expensive and it'll be a really difficult year. For someone who has a low gpa and has no other options, it's kind of like a last ditch attempt. I think you've hit all the marks for a great med school application so I don't think a traditional SMP would really be worth it for you. I only recommended Temple ACMS and the Tulane ACP because they're more or less a sureshot, which I think would be the only thing worth the money and the pain of an SMP for you.

Also, please look into EVMS's SMP on the post-bacc forum before you apply/attend. In the past they had a great linkage rate but much recently, they've been expanding their SMP class (up to 100 now, I think) but they haven't been accepting more students from the SMP class so linkage has dropped tremendously.

Thanks so much for the advice! I've decided that doing an SMP would probably be more risky and not worth the time/money since my GPA isn't in dire need of improvement. Besides the Tulane ACP and Temple ACMS, do you know of any other schools with high linkages? (I was looking at Rosalind Franklin but they've made a lot of changes for the upcoming year regarding their SMP (new curriculum, must have program-specific LoRs, etc.)

 

[Dr.NickRiviera]

Thanks so much for the advice! I've decided that doing an SMP would probably be more risky and not worth the time/money since my GPA isn't in dire need of improvement. Besides the Tulane ACP and Temple ACMS, do you know of any other schools with high linkages? (I was looking at Rosalind Franklin but they've made a lot of changes for the upcoming year regarding their SMP (new curriculum, must have program-specific LoRs, etc.)

Unfortunately, no, I'm not aware of any other SMPs with near/guaranteed linkage. Not unless you're URM or some other disadvantaged minority group? There are a few guaranteed programs that cater to specific demographics.

If you want, you can ask around in the post-bacc forums to see if there's some lesser known undiscovered gem of a program out there, but I'm pretty sure those two are it. 🙁