Should I do DO/PhD to save some money?

[deleted744041]

I am hoping for an opinion here. First information, I hate debt and I have been accepted into a well-known DO program. I was told that I could try for a PhD with DO and I would have all my living expenses and tuition to something dead cheap.

Do you guys think I should try for DO/PhD even if for something as simple as I want to have less debt?

The difference in length will be 4 years for PhD.

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[TheOtterpop]

The 4 extra years you spend pursuing a degree is 4 years of income lost (some people say end-of-career income lost, which is a major hit). Unless you want the PhD side of things for its own regard and your career plans, it's not worth it just to 'save' money....

 

[deleted744041]

I understand completely what you mean. It just that I hate the thought of 300k debt so much. It is almost visceral. While I, myself, do want the PhD thing, but it is truly for the letter since I am planing to be a clinician more than a scientist. But, the debt... is purely from private loan with whatever interest the banks will set. Why must Med school be so expensive?

 

[abolt18]

Seriously, NO! Not unless you honestly want to have a career in research. So you take 4 years to do the PhD on top of med school. So you graduate med school, but 4 years later. Assuming you come out of residency making, perhaps $200k for the first 4 years of practice, that is literally $800,000 in lost income. Almost A MILLION. Med school won't cost you a million bucks, or even 800k. PhD is not worth it if only for the money. Just the same, HPSP is not worth it if only for the money.

 

[abolt18]

I understand completely what you mean. It just that I hate the thought of 300k debt so much. It is almost visceral. While I, myself, do want the PhD thing, but it is truly for the letter since I am planing to be a clinician more than a scientist. But, the debt... is purely from private loan with whatever interest the banks will set. Why must Med school be so expensive?

I can tell you I am VERY debt-averse. My wife and I are very financially minded and great with our money. The looming debt over our head is daunting without a doubt. I know that I can handle living on the cheap for a few years after residency to pay off all my student loans in under 5 years. That's the plan and we're sticking to it. If you are motivated and responsible with your money (not too much hedonic adaptation) the debt will be quickly overcome.

 

[AlteredScale]

I am hoping for an opinion here. First information, I hate debt and I have been accepted into a well-known DO program. I was told that I could try for a PhD with DO and I would have all my living expenses and tuition to something dead cheap.

Do you guys think I should try for DO/PhD even if for something as simple as I want to have less debt?

The difference in length will be 4 years for PhD.

Don't go into a physicians scientist pathway for the decreased debt load. The goal of these tracks is to become a clinical scientist who will mainly run a lab. Additionally there comes the aspect of the 4 extra years which at this point time seems minuscule compared to the amount you'll save. But when you realize that your medical school classmates are at the end of their residency and or attending making real money while you are 35 as a pgy-2 and no show for the phd part of your career (you win no grants because you came from a DO school with fairly minimal resources to your phd compared to a MD/PhD from Weill Tri-I MSTP) then you'll realize it wasn't worth it.

 

[deleted744041]

Don't go into a physicians scientist pathway for the decreased debt load. The goal of these tracks is to become a clinical scientist who will mainly run a lab. Additionally there comes the aspect of the 4 extra years which at this point time seems minuscule compared to the amount you'll save. But when you realize that your medical school classmates are at the end of their residency and or attending making real money while you are 35 as a pgy-2 and no show for the phd part of your career (you win no grants because you came from a DO school with fairly minimal resources to your phd compared to a MD/PhD from Weill Tri-I MSTP) then you'll realize it wasn't worth it.

You are correct. Someone just, very fast and very kind, pm me with a very adamant message of not going the DO/PhD route. This person was in MD/PhD at a top uni. This person told me that while they saved money, they greatly regretted it. Now, in pgy-1, some of their attending were their own friends, no less. They said it is humiliating beyond comparison. Sorry for all the annoying "they", I am trying to protect that person's anonymity. I can't imagine there are many MD/PhD around. I hope I have done a good job.

I can tell you I am VERY debt-averse. My wife and I are very financially minded and great with our money. The looming debt over our head is daunting without a doubt. I know that I can handle living on the cheap for a few years after residency to pay off all my student loans in under 5 years. That's the plan and we're sticking to it. If you are motivated and responsible with your money (not too much hedonic adaptation) the debt will be quickly overcome.

I see you are in school now. How are you dealing with all these debts? I am beyond horrified at the negative red net worth that I will have. Right now, I have a relatively well paying job (59k a year), to throw it all away and take on a loan of 300k and not working for close to a decade just sounds absurd to me.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Like the above posters said, the financial opportunity loss for delaying your graduation greatly outweighs the financial gain of graduating debt free. No matter how high your medical school COA is, you won't exceed 450k in debt upon graduation including interests. In some fields, you could made that in a year. Perhaps that's a stretch but you get the point. Therefore, only do it if you are really interested in medical research.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I see you are in school now. How are you dealing with all these debts? I am beyond horrified at the negative red net worth that I will have. Right now, I have a relatively well paying job (59k a year), to throw it all away and take on a loan of 300k and not working for close to a decade just sounds absurd to me.

Before med school, I worked as a lab tech and made ~45k/year. Had I stayed in that job for another year, my pay would've gone up to ~70k. Now, I'll graduate med school owing 500k (had some from undergrad plus wife's undergrad). I am concerned, I don't hide it, but I didn't pursue medicine for the money. There are people who go into this much debt to get art degrees or to chase stupid fantasies, so I don't feel very guilty about going into this much debt to get a medical degree.

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

I am hoping for an opinion here. First information, I hate debt and I have been accepted into a well-known DO program. I was told that I could try for a PhD with DO and I would have all my living expenses and tuition to something dead cheap.

Do you guys think I should try for DO/PhD even if for something as simple as I want to have less debt?

The difference in length will be 4 years for PhD.

do it if u like research/want to work in academia
just realize by doing a PhD you're looking at 11 years minimum before you will make any appreciable income (4 years med school, 4 years minimum PhD, 3 years minimum residency, + fellowship if you go down that rabbit hole.)

 

[abolt18]

You are correct. Someone just, very fast and very kind, pm me with a very adamant message of not going the DO/PhD route. This person was in MD/PhD at a top uni. This person told me that while they saved money, they greatly regretted it. Now, in pgy-1, some of their attending were their own friends, no less. They said it is humiliating beyond comparison. Sorry for all the annoying "they", I am trying to protect that person's anonymity. I can't imagine there are many MD/PhD around. I hope I have done a good job.



I see you are in school now. How are you dealing with all these debts? I am beyond horrified at the negative red net worth that I will have. Right now, I have a relatively well paying job (59k a year), to throw it all away and take on a loan of 300k and not working for close to a decade just sounds absurd to me.

How do I cope? I'm very frugal and follow a good budget now to decrease that debt burden. I learn about money to ease my fears. Retirement, investing, student loan repayment plans, student loan refinancing, . I read www.whitecoatinvestor.com pretty-much daily (he has 3 posts a week, plus I read old posts on days he doesn't have one), have his book, and I read a lot of the articles/books/blogs that he references. . I've got a plan for residency and the first few years post-residency to become debt free and financially independent asap. I'll easily have 330K in student loans-including accumulated interest-upon graduation next year.

P.S. your comment about not working for a decade, I know you mean not earning money, but I assure you'll be working, a LOT. Really you're not earning anything through med school (4 years), then earning around 50K a year during residency (3+ years) so it's not as bad as you make it sound.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

The D.O./PhD at OSU-COM can be completed in just 6 years.

 

[deleted744041]

How do I cope? I'm very frugal and follow a good budget now to decrease that debt burden. I learn about money to ease my fears. Retirement, investing, student loan repayment plans, student loan refinancing, . I read www.whitecoatinvestor.com pretty-much daily (he has 3 posts a week, plus I read old posts on days he doesn't have one), have his book, and I read a lot of the articles/books/blogs that he references. . I've got a plan for residency and the first few years post-residency to become debt free and financially independent asap. I'll easily have 330K in student loans-including accumulated interest-upon graduation next year.

P.S. your comment about not working for a decade, I know you mean not earning money, but I assure you'll be working, a LOT. Really you're not earning anything through med school (4 years), then earning around 50K a year during residency (3+ years) so it's not as bad as you make it sound.

You are right. I must try to think think positively. And the plan you mentioned above sounds very good. While it may not not amount in money, it does relieve you of that terrible fear. Again, you are also correct in implying that I am very close to exaggeration (and full blown panic). Now, that you have said it and put it in words quite logically, it does not sound so foreboding. It is, like you said, only 4 years of no income.

The D.O./PhD at OSU-COM can be completed in just 6 years.

Oh, I am not at OSU. It is MSUCOM. The tuition, alone, sucks. The only saving grace is that I have 20k a year scholarship. If not for that, I will not even contemplate the whole thing.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

Absolutely not. If you save right and live under your means, you can pay back your loans within four years. PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. Be smart.

 

[group_theory]

I am hoping for an opinion here. First information, I hate debt and I have been accepted into a well-known DO program. I was told that I could try for a PhD with DO and I would have all my living expenses and tuition to something dead cheap.

Do you guys think I should try for DO/PhD even if for something as simple as I want to have less debt?

The difference in length will be 4 years for PhD.

How will you feel when you're still in medical school (or grad school, depending on how the structure is set up), and your classmates from MS1 year are finishing their 3-year residency and signing contracts for $150k+ (or if they went EM, $250k+)? Would doing the PhD portion (with no intention of being a scientist) feel like a smart financial move at that point?

How will you feel when you are in your clinical years as a student and your attending was your classmate during 1st year?

 

[AlteredScale]

The D.O./PhD at OSU-COM can be completed in just 6 years.

Just fyi, there's no guarantee a PhD will ever be finished in 2 yrs even on an advanced track pathway as a MD/ Phd or DO/PhD student. Additionally, since osu isnt funded by the nih via mstp there is no push to fast track the trainees (because the mstp track is a limited amount of money).

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Just fyi, there's no guarantee a PhD will ever be finished in 2 yrs even on an advanced track pathway as a MD/ Phd or DO/PhD student. Additionally, since osu isnt funded by the nih via mstp there is no push to fast track the trainees (because the mstp track is a limited amount of money).

There are no guarantees a medical student will finish in 4 years, but most do. You can name exceptions to everything, but I am speaking in very general terms here. OSU's normal track consists of doing your first two years as normal, then doing the PhD part over the following 3 years. If you decide to go into a PhD program I would suspect the individual would know it could take months or possibly years longer than the scheduled graduation date.

 

[AlteredScale]

There are no guarantees a medical student will finish in 4 years, but most do. You can name exceptions to everything, but I am speaking in very general terms here. OSU's normal track consists of doing your first two years as normal, then doing the PhD part over the following 3 years. If you decide to go into a PhD program I would suspect the individual would know it could take months or possibly years longer than the scheduled graduation date.

Yeah I get that but what im saying is a 6 year dual degree is the exception IMO because its so rare for a Phd student to go through advancement to candidcy and defend in such a short time span.

How does one complete a PhD whilst doing their clerkships? Is it three years of full time phd and then 2 years to finish off?

 

[OrdinaryDO]

Yeah I get that but what im saying is a 6 year dual degree is the exception IMO because its so rare for a Phd student to go through advancement to candidcy and defend in such a short time span.

How does one complete a PhD whilst doing their clerkships? Is it three years of full time phd and then 2 years to finish off?

I was just quoting their website. Feel free to check it out.

 

[JustPlainBill]

And just to chime in -- had an OMM professor that did a Ph.D after graduating residency -- in their opinion, not worth the headache unless you planned to bail on clinical practice and pursue your area of research ---

 

[abolt18]

As was pointed out above, it's end of career pay you lose out on - i.e the last 4 years of your career when you would theoretically be at your maximum earning potential. Not start of career pay.

So even more lost income and reason not to do it.

Very true, never thought of it that way but I realize it's right.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

The D.O./PhD at OSU-COM can be completed in just 6 years.

LOL I'll believe that when I see it happen. I don't think there's a single PI that will graduate someone in that length of time despite school advertisement.

OP - don't do DO/PhD. Every program I've seen you have to pay the first 2 years and then the rest is free. The interest over the next 5-6 years that are "free" are equivalent to what you'll pay just by doing your 2 clinical years.

 

[OrdinaryDO]

LOL I'll believe that when I see it happen. I don't think there's a single PI that will graduate someone in that length of time despite school advertisement.

OP - don't do DO/PhD. Every program I've seen you have to pay the first 2 years and then the rest is free. The interest over the next 5-6 years that are "free" are equivalent to what you'll pay just by doing your 2 clinical years.

Come on guys, if you are going to reply to my comments please take the time to read everything else I posted following that quote, as you would know that I agree and previously stated that same thing.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Come on guys, if you are going to reply to my comments please take the time to read everything else I posted following that quote, as you would know that I agree and previously stated that same thing.

Your reply had nothing to do with what I said. Your reply was that you acknowledge it could take longer. My reply is that it being completed in 6 years (2 years PhD) is a delusion because no PI will graduate you with that timeframe of work.

 

[DoctorKrieger]

Absolutely nowhere on the OSUCOM website do I see anything about a six year DO/PhD even being possible. Everything says it's an expected 7, but no more than 9, year plan.

Either way, it's not something you want to do unless you foresee a lot of lab work in your future and don't care about being able to pay your bills for a decade.

 

[sunealoneal]

I am hoping for an opinion here. First information, I hate debt and I have been accepted into a well-known DO program. I was told that I could try for a PhD with DO and I would have all my living expenses and tuition to something dead cheap.

Do you guys think I should try for DO/PhD even if for something as simple as I want to have less debt?

The difference in length will be 4 years for PhD.

The language you have used throughout this thread tells me that pursuing a PhD is not for you. An extreme interest in research would be required, given the significant investment you'd be making. The others have already touched on the financial implications. You can still do some smaller projects on the side if this is an itch you need to scratch. And it won't take you 4+ years.

 

[ortnakas]

I have friends who earned PhDs, and most of them took 5-6 years for the PhD alone. I agree with everyone above-- "possible" and "likely" aren't the same thing, especially when "possible" is a bit of a stretch.

The language you have used throughout this thread tells me that pursuing a PhD is not for you. An extreme interest in research would be required, given the significant investment you'd be making. The others have already touched on the financial implications. You can still do some smaller projects on the side if this is an itch you need to scratch. And it won't take you 4+ years.

Agreed. The DO/PhD programs make sense if and only if you have a very strong interest in a research career, and even then you can argue against it. Doing it to save money is definitely a bad plan.

 

[deleted744041]

Thanks, guy, for all of your opinions. You are correct that I was hoping to do the PhD to save some money. The DO/PhD suggestion was offered by MSU when I asked if there are any further scholarship I could asked for. It sounds reasonable and simple for the first few days. Now, that I received so many advises against it even from MD/PhD students, I don't think I will do it.

 

[AlteredScale]

Thanks, guy, for all of your opinions. You are correct that I was hoping to do the PhD to save some money. The DO/PhD suggestion was offered by MSU when I asked if there are any further scholarship I could asked for. It sounds reasonable and simple for the first few days. Now, that I received so many advises against it even from MD/PhD students, I don't think I will do it.

I spent a considerable amount of time deciding for or against the DO PhD at MSU so I understand the choice!

 

[burritowithgreensauce]

Just fyi, there's no guarantee a PhD will ever be finished in 2 yrs even on an advanced track pathway as a MD/ Phd or DO/PhD student. Additionally, since osu isnt funded by the nih via mstp there is no push to fast track the trainees (because the mstp track is a limited amount of money).

took the words right out of my mouth. the operative word is "can" be completed in 6 years. Getting a PhD is an abusive system where the PI will do whatever it takes to keep you in servitude till you publish something worthy of nature.

edit: think about it. training someone to get a PhD/publish requires alot of training on assays and lab technique. That's a very unique set of skills to aquire. Not to mention the thousands of repeat tests you're going to run to get the "data" that "proves" p<0.05. A fiscally wise PI will drag you onto other lab projects and give you 3rd/4th authorship till your jaded. Then you might get bumped to 2nd/3rd authorship. Finally, you are about to publish your 1st authorship paper, only to find out another lab did your research and published one month early. Back to square one. tl;dr regardless of md/do phd the operative word is "can".

 

[becomingdoctor]

I would not recommend you to go to DOPhD route for money. You have to be very careful about what you will do with your PhD degree in addition to your medical degree. Do you want to become a PI and write grants? PhD isn't for money, again ,if you want money, go and get a data science master degree and find a job in silicon valley.

 

[thepoopologist]

Pick your poison. While a PhD will lower upfront financial costs, it has its own emotional, physical, and back-end financial tolls.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I understand completely what you mean. It just that I hate the thought of 300k debt so much. It is almost visceral. While I, myself, do want the PhD thing, but it is truly for the letter since I am planing to be a clinician more than a scientist. But, the debt... is purely from private loan with whatever interest the banks will set. Why must Med school be so expensive?

Then no.

If you were looking into becoming a researcher or academia then it'd make since. As a future Clinician, med school will probably be long and difficult enough and nobody will care about the PhD

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[JDunc]

I'm not in medical school but I am about to begin my M.S. in Biology and follow with a PhD in Cell Biology. My brother is a 1st year at Oklahoma State.

Have you ever done research? As someone who does research daily, it is something you either love or hate. You do not see people often. You run experiments that take anywhere from 1 hour to 8 hours (sometimes overnight). When your experiment does not work it is frustrating. You do grant writing to get funding for new equipment to be able to do new original research. You have to write manuscripts for journal publications. Sometimes they reject the submission and request you change some things before they'll accept it.

Having a PhD may lower your upfront costs but it does have its own struggles and frustrations. Having a medical degree may be more extensive but the pay in the end is much greater.

I love what I do. My brother loves what he does. Find your niche and run with it. A PhD does not provide a salary that a DO or MD has. That's a fact. Everyone knows that. I will never save someone's life by doing a bypass surgery. On the flip side my brother will never discover a new aspect in science.

I hope some of this made sense. I love being in a lab working.


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