Should I include this?

[el799]

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i spent one summer doing clinical research and one of the jobs I did was collect blood samples under the supervision of the attending. While I did not insert the needles into the patient (which would be kinda grey in terms of hospital policy) I did use pre-existing A-lines to draw blood for the study, periopertively. Is this ok in an Adcom point of view?

 

[965978]

I think you’re asking two different questions here:

1) Does this experience hurt, help, or do nothing for your application?

2) Do you need more research experience?

I don’t know the answer to the first one. But my answer to the second one is that yes, you likely need more research experience.

 

[el799]

I think you’re asking two different questions here:

1) Does this experience hurt, help, or do nothing for your application?

2) Do you need more research experience?

I don’t know the answer to the first one. But my answer to the second one is that yes, you likely need more research experience.

Nope not asking about more experience, I know I need more clinical experience and I have several thousand hours of bench work with pubs-first questjon was my main point!

 

[965978]

Nope not asking about more experience, I know I need more clinical experience and I have several thousand hours of bench work with pubs-first questjon was my main point!

So you already have more research experience with publications? In that case it wouldn’t matter if you want to include it or not.

 

[el799]

So you already have more research experience with publications? In that case it wouldn’t matter if you want to include it or not.

Including as a clinical experience(working with a patient)

 

[965978]

Including as a clinical experience(working with a patient)

There is a distinct line between clinical experience and clinical research.

 

[Goro]

i spent one summer doing clinical research and one of the jobs I did was collect blood samples under the supervision of the attending. While I did not insert the needles into the patient (which would be kinda grey in terms of hospital policy) I did use pre-existing A-lines to draw blood for the study, periopertively. Is this ok in an Adcom point of view?

It's fine

 

[907914]

If it is your only major clinical experience, include it as you are having direct patient contact. If you have other clinical experience, I would put this one under research in favor of the other clinical experience. As @ClamShell has stated, clinical research may or may not be determined as clinical experience by ADCOMs as the end goal of your interactions was not clinical in nature, it was to conduct research.

 

[LizzyM]

i spent one summer doing clinical research and one of the jobs I did was collect blood samples under the supervision of the attending. While I did not insert the needles into the patient (which would be kinda grey in terms of hospital policy) I did use pre-existing A-lines to draw blood for the study, periopertively. Is this ok in an Adcom point of view?

There is nothing wrong with doing things to people under the supervision of a physician. The fine line is whether they were patients or subjects. If they were subjects, it is clinical research and it should come under the "research" heading. If they were patients, then you might list it as clinical volunteer or clinical employment, depending. It gets tricky to try to call research activities as "clinical", particularly if you did not interact with the humans by speaking to them or their loved ones.

 

[965978]

There is nothing wrong with doing things to people under the supervision of a physician. The fine line is whether they were patients or subjects. If they were subjects, it is clinical research and it should come under the "research" heading. If they were patients, then you might list it as clinical volunteer or clinical employment, depending. It gets tricky to try to call research activities as "clinical", particularly if you did not interact with the humans by speaking to them or their loved ones.

I think that if the person who is participating in the study is not being treated in any capacity, it wouldn’t count as clinical volunteering because you’re not offering a service to the research subject.

Where it would get real tricky is a situation in which the same individual is both a patient and a research subject. My friend worked in an outpatient cardiology clinic where the cardiologist was doing a research study and requested his patients to be part of it. So the patient’s cardiology appointment would immediately be followed by the research protocol on the patient (which mostly just included a few servers and some type of monitoring machine).

 

[LizzyM]

I think that if the person who is participating in the study is not being treated in any capacity, it wouldn’t count as clinical volunteering because you’re not offering a service to the research subject.

Where it would get real tricky is a situation in which the same individual is both a patient and a research subject. My friend worked in an outpatient cardiology clinic where the cardiologist was doing a research study and requested his patients to be part of it. So the patient’s cardiology appointment would immediately be followed by the research protocol on the patient (which mostly just included a few servers and some type of monitoring machine).

I get it. If someone is having blood drawn pre-op and post-op and the surgery is clinical care but the measuring of biomarkers before and after surgery is research, and the investigator's assistant is drawing blood from a line that is already in place, and the patient, perhaps, has already been medicated in anticipation of surgery, and is later coming out of anesthesia, it is hard to call that a clinical interaction or any sort. Furthermore, it is pretty much the equivalent of washing dishes unless one is also involved in running lab tests and analyzing the data, etc.

 

[el799]

I get it. If someone is having blood drawn pre-op and post-op and the surgery is clinical care but the measuring of biomarkers before and after surgery is research, and the investigator's assistant is drawing blood from a line that is already in place, and the patient, perhaps, has already been medicated in anticipation of surgery, and is later coming out of anesthesia, it is hard to call that a clinical interaction or any sort. Furthermore, it is pretty much the equivalent of washing dishes unless one is also involved in running lab tests and analyzing the data, etc.

Yeah it was a complex situation: it was part shadowing surgeons, part assisting the anesthesiologist, part of that assisting was for research for that anesthesiolgist, I also did all of the analyzation and paper writing for that research.

 

[LizzyM]

Yeah it was a complex situation: it was part shadowing surgeons, part assisting the anesthesiologist, part of that assisting was for research for that anesthesiolgist, I also did all of the analyzation and paper writing for that research.

Call it research. Call some of the hours shadowing. Don't try to stretch it to volunteer clinical or employment clinical. Get some other clinical exposure -- ideally with patients who are awake.