Should I Retake a 515 MCAT?

[redcouscous]

Hi,

I just got my score back today, 515 (129/129/129/128) and it was below my FL average of 518, so I feel like I underperformed. I was hoping to target T10 schools and I'm not sure if a 515 is good enough. My GPA is a 3.91, I'm egyptian (white), good EC's just need clinical experience over the next two years (gap year applicant).

Please let me know what you think.

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[Goro]

Hi,

I just got my score back today, 515 (129/129/129/128) and it was below my FL average of 518, so I feel like I underperformed. I was hoping to target T10 schools and I'm not sure if a 515 is good enough. My GPA is a 3.91, I'm egyptian (white), good EC's just need clinical experience over the next two years (gap year applicant).

Please let me know what you think.

Retaking a 515 is outright foolish and would merit a reject at gyngyn's school.

The odds are that you'll only stay the same, go up a point or two, or even go down. And many schools will average scores.

Your job is to get into medical school, not merely a T10. If you only get into Temple, will you give up on being a doctor?

 

[redcouscous]

Retaking a 515 is outright foolish and would merit a reject at gyngyn's school.

The odds are that you'll only stay the same, go up a point or two, or even go down. And many schools will average scores.

Your job is to get into medical school, not merely a T10. If you only get into Temple, will you give up on being a doctor?

You’re right, I would be thrilled to study at Temple. It’s funny, my original goal when studying for the MCAT was a 515, but once my practice FL’s surpassed that score I became obsessed with 520+. If I’m being honest with myself, it was the ugly part of my brain that is ego and status-driven. This is all I needed, thanks for the response. I’ve snapped out of it lol.

 

[deleted1030321]

You’re right, I would be thrilled to study at Temple. It’s funny, my original goal when studying for the MCAT was a 515, but once my practice FL’s surpassed that score I became obsessed with 520+. If I’m being honest with myself, it was the ugly part of my brain that is ego and status-driven. This is all I needed, thanks for the response. I’ve snapped out of it lol.

retaking a 515 is like taking more classes to boost your 3.91 to a 3.93 or 3.94. lol

 

[OfMiceAndWomen]

retaking a 515 is like taking more classes to boost your 3.91 to a 3.93 or 3.94. lol

I don't think it's a good idea to re-take a 515, but there is a much bigger difference between 515 vs 520+ than 3.91 vs 3.94.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Retake if you are getting 522+ consistently.

 

[KnightDoc]

Retake if you are getting 522+ consistently.

As measured by what? Recycled AAMC material? Third party FLs? This is impossible advice to follow!

Sorry, but I have to go with the consensus here. A score within three points of the FL average is not unreasonable, and retaking a perfectly acceptable (91%-ile) score is VERY risky if you don't knock it out of the park. Retaking a 505 is understandable to most adcoms, regardless of what happens. Retaking a 515 and not scoring 520+, which is relatively unlikely, period, will cause them to question your judgment, whether you score 518, 512, or 515 on the retake. It's very difficult, although certainly not impossible, to win retaking a 515, which is why the advice is overwhelmingly against it.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

As measured by what? Recycled AAMC material? Third party FLs? This is impossible advice to follow!

Sorry, but I have to go with the consensus here. A score within three points of the FL average is not unreasonable, and retaking a perfectly acceptable (91%-ile) score is VERY risky if you don't knock it out of the park. Retaking a 505 is understandable to most adcoms, regardless of what happens. Retaking a 515 and not scoring 520+, which is relatively unlikely, period, will cause them to question your judgment, whether you score 518, 512, or 515 on the retake. It's very difficult, although certainly not impossible, to win retaking a 515, which is why the advice is overwhelmingly against it.

measured by new FLs. I agree normally you shouldn't retake, but you are consistently scoring in FLs and sure that you had a bad day then why not? Most don't improve.

 

[KnightDoc]

measured by new FLs. I agree normally you shouldn't retake, but you are consistently scoring in FLs and sure that you had a bad day then why not? Most don't improve.

But there are no new FLs!!! They will be third party FLs, which will probably be deflated and will definitely be unreliable as compared to the real thing.

The reason I don't like your advice is because 515 is pretty close to 518, so there is no reason to think the score was the result of a bad day or a bad version of the test for OP. If he was scoring 522 on his FLs before the first test, MAYBE retake, but, even then, the actual test is the best indicator of an examinee's true score, not FLs taken under uncontrolled conditions, with no actual test day pressure.

Sorry, but advising someone to retake a 91%-ile score that was within 3 points of the average of 4 FLs is just bad advice, and is setting OP up for probable issues on the back end, regardless of how he does on third party FLs!! 🙂

It's a high risk, low reward strategy for someone disappointed they didn't pick up an extra 3 points on the test, going from a 91%-ile to 96%-ile. Even if you do get the points on the retake, you accomplish nothing when you demonstrate judgment the adcoms find questionable by chasing them. It's the MCAT equivalent of running into a burning building to retrieve your wallet because you have a few hundred dollars in it and replacing your license and credit cards will be a pain. Maybe you get away with it, maybe you die trying, but the upside is not worth the downside, and anyone evaluating the decision would give you an F for decision making!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

But there are no new FLs!!! They will be third party FLs, which will probably be deflated and will definitely be unreliable as compared to the real thing.

The reason I don't like your advice is because 515 is pretty close to 518, so there is no reason to think the score was the result of a bad day or a bad version of the test for OP. If he was scoring 522 on his FLs before the first test, MAYBE retake, but, even then, the actual test is the best indicator of an examinee's true score, not FLs taken under uncontrolled conditions, with no actual test day pressure.

Sorry, but advising someone to retake a 91%-ile score that was within 3 points of the average of 4 FLs is just bad advice, and is setting OP up for probable issues on the back end, regardless of how he does on third party FLs!! 🙂

I said take only if consistently scoring around 522 not for 518. I heard 3rd ones are tougher than AAMC ones.

 

[KnightDoc]

I said take only if consistently scoring around 522 not for 518. I heard 3rd ones are tougher than AAMC ones.

Great, so you're saying only do it if he can achieve the impossible. And, even then, IT WOULD STILL BE A BAD DECISION!!!!!!!!!

 

[redcouscous]

easy goes it. im not retaking, it's decided. thanks

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Great, so you're saying only do it if he can achieve the impossible. And, even then, IT WOULD STILL BE A BAD DECISION!!!!!!!!!

I know OP made his decision but since you like to debate with me on every topic, I will continue the discussion 🙂 I know one candidate from last cycle who retook after getting 517 and got 523 since his FLs were around 523. He is a traditional Asian male and ended up with Harvard and Penn admissions and advised my son to retake if he gets below 520. However I also have a family member who couldn't improve score in 4 attempts and ended up with DO. So there is no one size that fits all.

 

[KnightDoc]

I know OP made his decision but since you like to debate with me on every topic, I will continue the discussion 🙂 I know one candidate from last cycle who retook after getting 517 and got 523 since his FLs were around 523. He is a traditional Asian male and ended up with Harvard and Penn admissions and advised my son to retake if he gets below 520. However I also have a family member who couldn't improve score in 4 attempts and ended up with DO. So there is no one size that fits all.

Exactly! One candidate from last cycle does not a rule make, and you have no way to know whether he was successful because of the extra 3 points on his MCAT average or in spite of the bad decision making he demonstrated by retaking a 517.

All we know for sure is we have one well meaning parent advising children to always show everyone how well they can do, and a bunch of actual educators who actually serve on actual admissions committees actually advising that neurotic perfectionism, whether it is freaking out over one bad grade on an otherwise outstanding transcript, or spazzing out when scoring a few points below their practice test average when they still score in the 90%ile, is a big red flag negative indicator for them, because it foretells problems for some students when faced with the academic rigor of medical school. YMMV with your N=1 anecdotal examples. 🙂

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

Because you seem serious ill give you a serious answer. I would never retake a 515, if you have a bad test day and score lower it is much more harmful than if you were to score a little higher. Its a risk-benefit analysis.

The MCAT itself is not the only thing on your application. Become well rounded. Also the MCAT has nothing to do with medical school or your boards.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

in spite of the bad decision making he demonstrated by retaking a 517.

so T10 schools were not bothered by decision making skills of that candidate but we should purely go by advise we get here 🙂

All we know for sure is we have one well meaning parent advising children to always show everyone how well they can do, and a bunch of actual educators who actually serve on actual admissions committees actually advising that neurotic perfectionism, whether it is freaking out over one bad grade on an otherwise outstanding transcript, or spazzing out when scoring a few points below their practice test average when they still score in the 90%ile, is a big red flag negative indicator for them, because it foretells problems for some students when faced with the academic rigor of medical school. YMMV with your N=1 anecdotal examples. 🙂

And we have a well meaning pre-med who haven't applied yet but summarizing for adcoms 🙂 When schools have high GPA and MCAT thresholds for ORMs I would say you have to push for every grade and every point unless you have great ECs or creative writing skills.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Also the MCAT has nothing to do with medical school or your boards.

MCAT score is a good indicator of USMLE step scores. Look at stats of Vandy and WashU.

 

[KnightDoc]

so T10 schools were not bothered by decision making skills of that candidate but we should purely go by advise we get here 🙂


And we have a well meaning pre-med who haven't applied yet but summarizing for adcoms 🙂 When schools have high GPA and MCAT thresholds for ORMs I would say you have to push for every grade and every point unless you have great ECs or creative writing skills.

Yes and yes!!

You have no idea whether T5s were bothered by decision making, or whether the rest of the application was simply strong enough to overcome it. All we know is that it is stupid for someone scoring at the 94%ile to retake. ORMs DO score at the 94%, without a retake, and get into T5 schools!!!! It's objectively a high risk low reward strategy, even if it works out for some.

And yes, I am perfectly capable of reading an online forum and accurately summarizing what I read. 🙂 Pushing for every grade and point is EXACTLY what the experts advise against, based on what they have seen in their combined decades of experience. But you know better, based on your baby, your nieces, nephews, friends, acquaintances and N=1 Harvard students!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

But you know better, based on your baby, your nieces, nephews, friends, acquaintances and N=1 Harvard students!

I never said I know better than adcoms, but my point is no size fits all and each have their own risk tolerance. I know in depth info about these candidates and NOT general info. I form opinions based on what I see 🙂

 

[KnightDoc]

I never said I know better than adcoms, but my point is no size fits all and each have their own risk tolerance. I know in depth info about these candidates and just general info. I form opinions based on what I see 🙂

Right, but you are giving advice to OP based on a high risk low reward strategy that is, in general, bad. Outliers and exceptions exist for everyone, so, if no size fits all, anything anyone says is great, and there is no point performing an analysis and going with the odds on anything.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Right, but you are giving advice to OP based on a high risk low reward strategy that is, in general, bad. Outliers and exceptions exist for everyone, so, if no size fits all, anything anyone says is great, and there is no point performing an analysis and going with the odds on anything.

Again I told OP to retake only if getting above 520 consistently if they want to take a chance, I didn't advocate for blind retake. Time to move on to other threads 🙂

 

[KnightDoc]

Doubt that this is common. Now you’re the one falling into the n=1 fallacy.

Doubt what is common? A 517 scoring a 523 on a retake? Of course that's uncommon! Any 517 retake being a red flag for an adcom, regardless of the outcome, due to what it says about the applicant? I'm not so sure, based on what they have about this, and their rationale for saying it.

ORMs with 517s being accepted to T5s? Probably more common than ORMs being accepted to T5s with 523s after scoring 517 on their first try!

 

[Goro]

so T10 schools were not bothered by decision making skills of that candidate but we should purely go by advise we get here 🙂


And we have a well meaning pre-med who haven't applied yet but summarizing for adcoms 🙂 When schools have high GPA and MCAT thresholds for ORMs I would say you have to push for every grade and every point unless you have great ECs or creative writing skills.

There are T10 Adcom members on this site who regularly advise against the wisdom of retaking an already perfect MCAT score.

 

[OfMiceAndWomen]

Doubt what is common? A 517 scoring a 523 on a retake? Of course that's uncommon! Any 517 retake being a red flag for an adcom, regardless of the outcome, due to what it says about the applicant? I'm not so sure, based on what they have about this, and their rationale for saying it.

ORMs with 517s being accepted to T5s? Probably more common than ORMs being accepted to T5s with 523s after scoring 517 on their first try!

This is actually an interesting question. For T5/10s, would someone with 517 --> 523, actually be looked down upon compared to someone who applied with a 517? I would bet not, but the limiting step here is to actually score a 523.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

There are T10 Adcom members on this site who regularly advise against the wisdom of retaking an already perfect MCAT score.

I understand that but will they take see it as a -ve?

 

[Goro]

I understand that but will they take see it as a -ve?

Some Adcoms have stated that as such.

 

[KnightDoc]

This is actually an interesting question. For T5/10s, would someone with 517 --> 523, actually be looked down upon compared to someone who applied with a 517? I would bet not, but the limiting step here is to actually score a 523.

Of course a 523 is better than a 517. Everyone who is arguing about this is missing the relevant point (I wonder how they otherwise do in CARS? 🙂) -- adcoms HATE neurotic perfectionist premeds, because they tend to become neurotic perfectionist med students, and THEY tend to have difficulties in med school. Retaking an excellent, although not perfect score (515, 517, etc.) is one indicia of this condition, and is a red flag for them. Period. Sure, getting a 523 on the retake is better than getting a 509, but the sin is the retake itself, not the result.

If you can believe the adcoms who post here, including some at T10s, @EdgeTrimmer's friend's kid was successful in spite of the retake, not because of it, and would have been successful in any event. Of course, we will never know for sure.

The takeaway is, if you're that hung up on a 523 and don't want to put your neuroticism on display, don't take the test until you know you can get it!! 🙂 Because, for every example @EdgeTrimmer can conjure up of someone being successful after an ill-advised retake, I guarantee you there are dozens of people with 525s on their first try who are rejected every year by Harvard and Penn, so, what's the lesson there? Not to apply with a 517 -->523?

 

[KnightDoc]

Of course, they regard a 523 as better than a 517. I doubt that ORMs are admitted into T10s with anything less than 520+ scores. Would be interesting to see data on that.

Good luck on getting a school to release that data to you. But, you should realize that's a pretty extreme statement to make, and I PROMISE you that many people, of every racial background, including ORM, are accepted every year into each and every one of the T10 schools with MCATs below 520.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

@EdgeTrimmer's friend's kid
My kid's friend from his UG school 🙂
The takeaway is, if you're that hung up on a 523 and don't want to put your neuroticism on display, don't take the test until you know you can get it!! 🙂 Because, for every example @EdgeTrimmer can conjure up of someone being successful after an ill-advised retake, I guarantee you there are dozens of people with 525s on their first try who are rejected every year by Harvard and Penn, so, what's the lesson there? Not to apply with a 517 -->523?
I know schools like WashU and Vandy reject their own students for 517 MCAT with 3.9x GPA (as stated on one thread recently)

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I PROMISE you that many people, of every racial background, including ORM, are accepted every year into each and every one of the T10 schools with MCATs below 520.

May be lower MCAT score needs to be compensated by stronger ECs?

 

[KnightDoc]

May be lower MCAT score needs to be compensated by stronger ECs?

Yes, of course, but that is true for everyone. You're just not accepting my point!

You intellectually understand that a lot of applicants are rejected at top schools with super high MCATs, and you also understand that some people squeak through with lower MCATs, but you can't accept the fact that someone with a lower MCAT who retook against the general advice of adcoms at the same tier of school might have been accepted IN SPITE of doing something ill-advised rather than because of it, just because he ended up with a higher score on the retake.

You are just not accepting the premise that adcoms don't like grade grubbing, chasing every point, sweating every less than perfect grade and retaking 517s because it represents all the qualities that they have seen destroy students in their very schools. You don't accept it because you don't believe it, and because you raised your kid to chase the point and grub for the grade.

P.S. I get it, because my dad did the same exact thing with me!!! He's old school, like you, and is never wrong, like you, so there is no convincing him. He also always has an example to prove any stupid point he wants to make. 🙂 I just got to the point in HS where I couldn't take it anymore, so I started ignoring him. Now here's the part you're going to love - he takes credit for whatever success I have by claiming to have laid the foundation, while I blame him for whatever success I don't have by messing with my head growing up! Any reflection of yourself in there??? 🙂 What more is there to say????

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yes, of course, but that is true for everyone. You're just not accepting my point!

You intellectually understand that a lot of applicants are rejected at top schools with super high MCATs, and you also understand that some people squeak through with lower MCATs, but you can't accept the fact that someone with a lower MCAT who retook against the general advice of adcoms at the same tier of school might have been accepted IN SPITE of doing something ill-advised rather than because of it, just because he ended up with a higher score on the retake.

You are just not accepting the premise that adcoms don't like grade grubbing, chasing every point, sweating every less than perfect grade and retaking 517s because it represents all the qualities that they have seen destroy students in their very schools. You don't accept it because you don't believe it, and because you raised your kid to chase the point and grub for the grade.

P.S. I get it, because my dad did the same exact thing with me!!! He's old school, like you, and is never wrong, like you, so there is no convincing him. He also always has an example to prove any stupid point he wants to make. 🙂 I just got to the point in HS where I couldn't take it anymore, so I started ignoring him. What more is there to say????

I did not raise my kid to chase every point and every grade, but prepare well and take whatever the outcome. He never repeated any standardized test looking for perfect scores despite his classmates doing it in HS. Hence he values my input. Despite all general talk, Asian kids need near perfect stats to get into T20s unless they have stellar ECs to compensate slightly lower stats.

P.S. You can start ignoring me as well if you can't take it anymore 🙂

 

[HopeP]

P.S. I get it, because my dad did the same exact thing with me!!! He's old school, like you, and is never wrong, like you, so there is no convincing him. He also always has an example to prove any stupid point he wants to make. 🙂 I just got to the point in HS where I couldn't take it anymore, so I started ignoring him. Now here's the part you're going to love - he takes credit for whatever success I have by claiming to have laid the foundation, while I blame him for whatever success I don't have by messing with my head growing up! Any reflection of yourself in there??? 🙂 What more is there to say????

N=1.

 

[KnightDoc]

I did not raise my kid to chase every point and every grade, but prepare well and take whatever the outcome. He never repeated any standardized test looking for perfect scores despite his classmates doing it in HS. Hence he values my input. Despite all general talk, Asian kids need near perfect stats to get into T20s unless they have stellar ECs to compensate slightly lower stats.

P.S. You can start ignoring me as well if you can't take it anymore 🙂

I will NEVER ignore you!!! 🙂

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I will NEVER ignore you!!! 🙂

Can I adopt you for next app cycle? 🙂

 

[deleted1030321]

Of course, they regard a 523 as better than a 517. I doubt that ORMs are admitted into T10s with anything less than 520+ scores. Would be interesting to see data on that.

ORMs definitely are admitted into T10s with scores of less than 520. That is just a ridiculous, unfounded statement. The MEDIAN MCAT score for T10s varies between 520 and 522. This is the median, meaning the 50th percentile, and that approximately 50% of matriculants have a score lower than this (and URMs only make up a few percent of admissions, so they can't just automatically be the bottom 50%). Harvard's 25th percentile MCAT score from last cycle was 516, and their 10th percentile was 513.

 

[deleted988749]

i think i know who you are on reddit. your post got deleted by mods for bragging right lol

 

[deleted1030321]

Again, you can't cite any examples. Interesting.

And how do you know that URMs make up a small percentage of matriculants at T10 schools. The most recent data shows that UCSF's entering class is comprised of 47% URMs.

The MCAT scores at T10s are barbell shaped in distribution. On one end, there are "hooked" candidates: URM, first generation, donor kids, legacy kids, military, etc. who are given pretty large preferences when it comes to things like the MCAT. On the other end, you have "unhooked" applicants which include ORMs. The median of 520+ takes account of both ends of the barbell. If UCSF's most recent example is representative in terms of demographics (ie 47% URM), then it's fair to say that unhooked ORMs at T10s have to average substantially above a 520 at T10 schools.

I've used logic and facts. Now let's see if you can do the same.

For one, wow. You were very toxic and passive-aggressive in that comment, and said "again, you can't cite any examples" when that was my first comment about this discussion. But, I will still address your comment. I linked a Harvard web page containing the information that I will reference. 24% of the 2019 entering class were URMs, which is a little under the percentage in the general population. I was not referencing UCSF btw - and UCSF isn't considered a "T10". T10s are schools like Harvard, JHU, Mayo Clinic, NYU, etc. Can you provide me the barbell shaped distribution of MCAT scores? Because I honestly do not believe it, given that 50% of MCAT scores for matriculants lie between 516 and 523, according to MSAR.

Facts and Figures

HMS nurtures a diverse community of more than 12,000 faculty members committed to leadership in alleviating suffering.

hms.harvard.edu

And another thing, if you continue to be rude, I am not going to keep replying to the thread.

 

[deleted988749]

Who?

a post i found can't find it anymore. OP just asked if s/he ruined their chance at t10 with a 515.

 

[HopeP]

 

[deleted1030321]

24% is not a small number. Consider how weighted averages are computed. You also have to include other hooked applicants: first generation, military, donor kids, legacy kids, etc. The number of hooked applicants is thus higher than 24%.

UCSF is considered a T5. Hopefully, you're aware of this?

MCAT/GPA distributions by race of matriculants and applicants - publicly available and easily found through any search engine:

https://www.aamc.org/system/files/2019-10/2019_FACTS_Table_A-18.pdf

I was speaking in terms of competitiveness I.E. a combination of MCAT and GPA/other stats. Also, I'm not sure what the table you linked me is supposed to say - that URMs get lower mean MCATs? That doesn't show that T10s make an exception and accept relatively low stat applicants just because they are URMs. Lastly, when I said a small number, I was wrong. I would rather say that URMs are not represented in medical schools more so than they are in the general public.

 

[Goro]

Shall I call the mods and have this dumpster fire put to bed?

If not, I suggest that you stop the bickering.

 

[deleted1030321]

Shall I call the mods and have this dumpster fire put to bed?

If not, I suggest that you stop the bickering.

DW I'm not posting any more comments. I don't like arguing, especially over the internet.

 

[KnightDoc]

Can I adopt you for next app cycle? 🙂

Sure!! I know @gonnif will really appreciate that!!! Plus, my own parents certainly have no interest in playing!!! 🙂

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Sure!! I know @gonnif will really appreciate that!!! Plus, my own parents certainly have no interest in playing!!! 🙂

Playing or paying? If I adopt you I will help you get scholarship ☺️

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

UCSF is #1 as per PD ranking!

 

[Damson]

My god an innocuous thread can turn so quickly

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

My god an innocuous thread can turn so quickly

Power of anonymity!

 

[KnightDoc]

Playing or paying? If I adopt you I will help you get scholarship ☺

In that case, I'm moving in. I'd love to live in NorCal if I don't have to pay, and you might be lonely next year anyway! 🙂

And, yes (no?), my parents are definitely not relishing the possibility of paying!! We haven't quite worked that out yet. It will depend on what my options look like. I've been told to expect to borrow up to the federal unsubsidized limit, which is bad, but not horrific.

 

[Damson]

In that case, I'm moving in. I'd love to live in NorCal if I don't have to pay, and you might be lonely next year anyway! 🙂

And, yes (no?), my parents are definitely not relishing the possibility of paying!! We haven't quite worked that out yet. It will depend on what my options look like. I've been told to expect to borrow up to the federal unsubsidized limit, which is bad, but not horrific.

maybe private bank loans with 1~3% interest with the help of parent cosigners?