Should I still go into medicine if I am not altruistic

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Looks like this thread has degraded into a money thing again. How many times does it need to be said on SDN that the highest guaranteed salary for a career is a doctor?

You can't guarantee a long term income as a CEO. Your company could go under in a year or less even when things are going strong.

It is down right stupid to say, "oh, a politician makes such ans such. Just become a politician and you can make those big bucks." First, you have to get elected. Second, you have to be able to make changes. Third, you need to be liked. Fourth, do you even have what it takes to get passed the little small town mayor position.......being a major in the city of Green Bay is not being the major of New York.

Oh, the leader of our country makes $400,000 a year. Just become the leader of our country and make the big bucks. Do any of you recognize how outlandish of a statement that is?

Oh, get some high level position in the military. Yeah, have fun spending those 20 years TRYING to get that high paying position. A lot of that stuff comes down to senior ranking. You don't see any young looking person in their 30's in a big name position in the military. Don't believe me, look it up yourself.

Become president of a school and make the big bucks. Yeah, good luck going to work everyday stressing out about the next budge plan....you could lose your job if schools consolidate and your salary is bound to drop with cuts in spending.

I've said this a few times on here and I will say it again. Only 20% of people in any professiona make 80% of the money in that profession.
 
fizzle said:
The President makes $400,000? I thought it was around $300,000. And keep in mind that this does not include big cost factors such as housing and food, which he and his family gets for free. I mean, the President hardly has anything to spend his money on during those four years besides presents!

Not that I'm bemoaning his situation; it's certainly a difficult task to become a President and run the country, so I'm sure he deserves every dollar.
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But you can only have this for a max of eight years and to campaign for presidency is a very costly endeavor way more costly than the combined debt of an entire class of medical students.

And again becoming a physician isn't that difficult sure it is difficult to get an MD but a lot of people forget about DO you can pretty much be guarnteed a family physician spot which after 10 or so years avgs 183,000. If you work a lotharder than the regualar college student for 2-4 after you had a horrible GPA, your GPA can be a high enough to get a DO.
 
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I thought the president made $500,000? That's why he capped the salaries of CEOs of failing companies at that rate.

Ahh i found it:

President Obama currently earns $400,000 per year, along with a $50,000 expense account, a $100,000 nontaxable travel account and $19,000 for entertainment
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Tin Man said:
You aren't looking hard enough, then.

Physicians average about 200K. Who else?

Politicians - FAR more prestige, easier money.
Military - Get high enough in the ranks with an important enough job, and you'll have both, plus great pay on the way up.
Plumber - What could be better than creating your own hours and being on call? Sure, the prestige isn't up there, until people figure out you're making 300K a year...
Scientists - of pretty much any make or model, depending on the work you do. After all, you have to do SOMETHING with that pre-med education.
Real Estate - You don't even have to leave your house.
Stocks - Once again, you don't have to leave the house. Therefore, you can create your OWN prestigious persona instead of letting your career do it for you.
CEO - of pretty much any successful company can easily make over 200K a year. And you get to say, "Yeah, you know that place? I own it." That's prestige.

Most of these careers pay better on the way to the top, and are FAR easier than getting a medial degree. You want to make money? Fair enough. Leave the medicine to the people that'll still be around when the money isn't there anymore.
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I seriously hope this is a joke - or you have no idea what the real world is like.
 
atomi said:
I consider the $180k/year (average including part-time workers) that a psychiatrist earns (generally regarded to be a less competitive specialty requiring fewer years of training) or the $160k a family doctor earns (the lowest average of them all) to be high-paying, especially considering their work hours. If you don't consider that high-paying, then I humbly ask you to tell me about the world you come from.

Given your experience, do you really think you get it?
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No, I'm not saying it's not HIGH PAYING. I'm saying people have a skewed perspective on what they're really making, or that's what I am trying to get at. The salaries are comfortable but people aren't taking into consideration the "big picture", so to speak.
 
kduarte1 said:
I have many reasons for wanting to go into medicine (love for anatomy/physio, good enough grades +mcat to get in, respect+ salary associated with being an MD) but altruism isn't one of them. I tried very hard to get my self to be altruistic but I just dont seem to enjoy sacrificing my time to help others. I am not a bad person or anyhting I care about people. Would I still be happy being a doctor or should I pick another career?
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You may not be altruistic in general, but it may change when it comes to your patients and your course in helping them, who knows. But as others have said, as long as it interests you, I'm sure you'll love the job, and the pay is excellent.

And for the whole money issue, all of that garbage about "oh there are careers that make so much more money for so much less"...give me a break. I personally don't know ANY plumber that makes 300k a year, come on now. Being a CEO of a company is a feat that barely anyone can achieve, real estate is either starve or do alright, you don't always see people making it big. Politics, not at all. Not only does it take forever to get to a high seating job, but the pay until then is dirt. Sure, some careers MAY be able to achieve the salaries that MDs can after YEARS of work, but quite simply it is not the case in most places. Fact of the matter is, even if you have your own company (plumber, etc. etc.) you can't just charge 20 thousand to unclog a toilet.

EDIT: ohh...well it seems Atomi just said everything I did, only in a far better manner =) I actually learned some things from that, thanks!
 
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Kaustikos said:
Compassion and altruism aren't necessarily the same thing...at all. You can be compassionate about something but not altruistic. I have compassion, but altruism is a far stretch for me in certain cases.

edit

and not to say this is the quoted person's view, but I can see lots of examples on television where altruism is "incorrectly" romanticized.
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I agree with this post.

Altruism is when you do something expecting absolutely nothing in repayment for doing something.

Compassion is the same as showing empathy for a patient but you can be compassionate and nice and friendly without being altruistic because you still expect that payments are rendered for your time and services. On the other hand, if you were also altruistic you wouldn't expect payments or things of that nature.
 
atomi said:
To make the same amount of money as an architect or engineer, both professions that require significant education, you would have to work 24 hours a day. Now do you want to still talk about work hours?
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Who has to pay 250k of debt for professional school?

How long do you have to make monthly payments for that?

Do they pay malpractice insurance that literally forces them to bend over?

You lambast these professions for netting 90k salaries but they're not paying debt/malpractice. We're not talking work hours, so to speak.
 
Woah woah woah. I'm not trying to start a flame-war here. I apologize in advance.

atomi said:
What in the world are you talking about? First you claim that doctors don't really make that much money, then you defend their right to earn such high salaries because they incur large debt and have to pay malpractice. Which one is it?
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I definitely DO NOT feel that they don't deserve/have earned the right to their income.
The amount of cash you shelled out for school doesn't have any bearing on what you are worth to an employer or customer. The numbers quoted for physician salaries come after malpractice insurance. And even after loan repayment, the compensation is still huge. When you're taking home $20-30k/month, a $2k/month loan repayment (which is significantly above the nat'l average) is essentially in the noise.
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Your numbers are still highly UNrealistic. The national averages people are seeing on these sites are down-right outrageous. My states national average for physician salaries is 1 SD behind that for some of those sited paychecks so I doubt their credibility from that (a state that has a higher earning, on average than any other state)

I never 'lambasted' architecture or any other career. I simply pointed out that doctors earn far more per hour worked. They earn so much because the AMA has set up a system to guarantee such high compensation because their artificial market of insurance payers will bear it. They don't earn it simply because somebody feels bad that they had to payback loans that amount to less than 10% of their takehome pay for 10 years. Try paying back an $80k undergraduate engineering education on $50k/year. I have plenty of friends who are doing this, and you expect me to feel bad for the MDs? Have you ever heard of loan forbearance or doctor mortgages? MDs have a sweet setup, and I don't understand why so many pre-meds like to deny it. I guess they are just made to feel guilty about it when they are told that they should just want to help the sick, whereas the rest of the undergrads are actually concerned with getting a job that provides a paycheck - it's a pretty elitist attitude to act above the real-world like this IMO. When will pre-meds stop feeling guilty about trying to get a good job? What point are you trying to make, exactly? Because frankly, right now, you are all over the map.
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You're not outright criticizing those professions, but making it look like they're not netting a comfy earning. Anything in or above 100k is a comfortable earning. And when you're in graduate school, you're basically being paid to learn for a higher earning career.

No, I agree. It's a funny acting game that I haven't figured out for myself either. I am simply stating that don't expect it to be THAT glamerous when we're seeing a downhill in returned income. I'm just not seeing the outlook that people tend to see right now. The statistics are skewed, imo, from those sites of earned wages.

And I see you are a PandabearMD fan. This is a guy who apparently went to med school solely in order to make more money and has complained all the way up until he gets his first attending paycheck. Everyone knows there's a very bright light at the end of the tunnel, and everyone knows what they're getting into. See how Panda feels in 15 years, when he can pay for his kids' college outright, and has a nicely secured retirement. And hey, he's even saved a few lives along the way. Will he regret it then? Of course it's easy to complain while you're earning a resident's salary and are in debt. He knew what this was all about and he knows that things are going to be very good. The sooner you admit this, the better it's going to be for you. Pretending that doctors have it bad and that you are somehow noble for enduring such grueling training for an eventual lifetime of sacrifice rather than just taking one of those oh-so-easy to come by higher paying jobs elsewhere is an annoying trend that I have seen for years on here. I respect people who want to accomplish more with their lives, people who work hard to make a good living for themselves in a career needed for the good of society (healthcare, engineering, science). I also respect those who choose to devote their lives to service for low pay (military, teaching, social work), but that's not what MDs are. I don't respect people who try to make others feel guilty for wanting to achieve in life, which is what these lying, anti-MD pre-med apologists are all about.
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My sentiments stem from my realist outlook on the situation. Maybe I need to start talking to people who aren't cynical/realist physicians who lecture me with these facts. I don't mean to disrespect those who are in it to get a job with a comfortable salary. I'm just making sure people understand that the salaries are not THAT great. My attitude may change, depending upon whether or not I ever do hear a different side to the argumetn I've been hearing

Again, I don't mean to insult/yell at you, so I apologize if I have acted like that.
 
Tin Man said:
You aren't looking hard enough, then.

Physicians average about 200K. Who else?

Politicians - FAR more prestige, easier money.
Military - Get high enough in the ranks with an important enough job, and you'll have both, plus great pay on the way up.
Plumber - What could be better than creating your own hours and being on call? Sure, the prestige isn't up there, until people figure out you're making 300K a year...
Scientists - of pretty much any make or model, depending on the work you do. After all, you have to do SOMETHING with that pre-med education.
Real Estate - You don't even have to leave your house.
Stocks - Once again, you don't have to leave the house. Therefore, you can create your OWN prestigious persona instead of letting your career do it for you.
CEO - of pretty much any successful company can easily make over 200K a year. And you get to say, "Yeah, you know that place? I own it." That's prestige.

Most of these careers pay better on the way to the top, and are FAR easier than getting a medial degree. You want to make money? Fair enough. Leave the medicine to the people that'll still be around when the money isn't there anymore.
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David Petraeus, the General of the United States Army, only earns $180,000/year. You have NO IDEA what you're talking about, so I won't even begin to disprove your other dumb ideas. :laugh:
 
usermike8500 said:
I challenge anyone on here to name one career path that represents a better, easier, and quicker way to earn a physician's salary, which averages a quarter million dollars per year, not to mention the high-paying fields of radiology, rad onc, and derm that all pre-meds are so enamored with.
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Lawyer. Pheeew, that was hard.
 
jult24er said:
Not joking ...
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NALPDistro2006.gif
 
circulus vitios said:
NALPDistro2006.gif
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Looks higher than a resident's pay to me. Thats where I'd begin, but i know you dont really think that graph says much about choosing law vs medicine based on pay ...

Edit: Or, more accurately, looks higher than a 4th year med student's pay (costs).
 
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medicine in a dayjob. so is firefighting. i don't think all firemen, policemen, lawyers (lol) are/need to be altruistic, even though they also work for the good of the general population. as long as you can remain professional and do your job well, i dont think altriusm is necessary. hopefully you are happy enough with medicine that you can see yourself working in the field for the rest of your life, otherwise id pick another career.
 
jult24er said:
Looks higher than a resident's pay to me. Thats where I'd begin, but i know you dont really think that graph says much about choosing law vs medicine based on pay ...

Edit: Or, more accurately, looks higher than a 4th year med student's pay (costs).
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So your entire basis is salary compared to a residents salary? :laugh:
 
jult24er said:
Not joking ...
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Wow, just wow. You know the average lawyer makes significantly less than the average doctor, and it is much more difficult to get a job as a lawyer than as a doctor right?
 
jult24er said:
no ...
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You said being a lawyer was a better, easier, and quicker way to earn a physicians average salary of a quarter million dollars per year. My graph shows that the average salary for a lawyer is $62,000 a year. Less than one half of a percent earn more than $160,000 a year. Then you respond that it 'looks higher than a resident's pay to me.' :laugh:
 
NotAndrew said:
Wow, just wow. You know the average lawyer makes significantly less than the average doctor, and it is much more difficult to get a job as a lawyer than as a doctor right?
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I would expect to be able to earn much much more than the average lawyer, if I were to go into law, but do not expect to earn more than an average doctor in medicine.
 
jult24er said:
I would expect to be able to earn much much more than the average lawyer, if I were to go into law, but do not expect to earn more than an average doctor in medicine.
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And why is that?
 
circulus vitios said:
You said being a lawyer was a better, easier, and quicker way to earn a physicians average salary of a quarter million dollars per year. My graph shows that the average salary for a lawyer is $62,000 a year. Less than one half of a percent earn more than $160,000 a year. Then you respond that it 'looks higher than a resident's pay to me.' :laugh:
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I like that you looked for data and posted a graph, but I think your graph interpretation skills could use some improvement.
 
jult24er said:
I like that you looked for data and posted a graph, but I think your graph interpretation skills could use some improvement.
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Are you going to refute anything I say, or will you just continue acting cute?
 
I went to college with some chick that went to Law School. she spoke at our graduation. Her speach was basically the following:

- I want to change the world from the wrong to the right

- I got a degree in communications so I can learn how to speak the game

- I got a degree in philosophy so I can become a critical thinker

So she goes to the local Big Ten law school (and we are not talking about Northwestern, either). I could tell in her speech that she was a complete tool and wouldn't amount to much. Her jobs in school dealt with being an intern at the state capital and some clothing store.

During her whole speech I was waiting to here what she is going to do after she is done giving this speech. During the whole speech I kept thinking, "Good luck getting that first job. See you at Starbucks." At the very end she finally mustered the words "law school."
 
jult24er said:
Because I would be able to get into a top law school and be hired into a top firm.
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And then you apply with several other hundreds of applicants and get rejected. Now what?
 
circulus vitios said:
Are you going to refute anything I say, or will you just continue acting cute?
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🙂 lol, thank you. Ok, the title of the graph you posted says class of 2006, and was published in 2007. So its the average salary for lawyers in their first year out of law school. Or, put another way, 3rd year after starting law school.

Even then, i dont think average lawyer and average doctor salary is a relevant comparison. First and foremost, because it is so much harder to get into medical school than law school.
 
jult24er said:
🙂 lol, thank you. Ok, the title of the graph you posted says class of 2006, and was published in 2007. So its the average salary for lawyers in their first year out of law school. Or, put another way, 3rd year after starting law school.
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Most lawyers have too much time on their hands. There are two main forums for the local Big Ten football program. There are a lot of lawyers who spend all day on BOTH forums. Yeah, being a lawyer is such a great idea.

I have a lot of respect for criminal defense lawyers.
 
jult24er said:
🙂 lol, thank you. Ok, the title of the graph you posted says class of 2006, and was published in 2007. So its the average salary for lawyers in their first year out of law school. Or, put another way, 3rd year after starting law school.
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In May 2006, the median annual earnings of all wage-and-salaried lawyers were $102,470. The middle half of the occupation earned between $69,910 and $145,600. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of lawyers in May 2006 were:

Management of companies and enterprises $128,610 Federal Government 119,240 Legal services 108,100 Local government 78,810 State government
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http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos053.htm#earnings

Still no where near $250k.
 
jult24er said:
Because I would be able to get into a top law school and be hired into a top firm.
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Clearly your a fool. It's much easier to say you will get into a top a school and get hired by a top firm than it is to actually do it.
 
NotAndrew said:
Clearly your a fool. It's much easier to say you will get into a top a school and get hired by a top firm than it is to actually do it.
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Disagree with your first opinion. Agree with your second.

Side note: helpful to use a verb in constructing any sentence, but especially one where you are appointing yourself arbiter of someone else's intelligence.
 
xanthomondo said:
You do realize that that requires more connections than actually have intelligence, right?

Starting to think this is a troll
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I don't realize that at all.

No way man, im not a troll at all. i have like 600 posts (how would i be a troll with 600 posts?), i remember being on the Drexel WL last year and following that thread, and seeing you get in, if i remeber correctly. Congrats, btw.
 
For what it's worth, I don't think payscale.com is really that accurate. Those salaries seem low compared to the dozens of other salary surveys I've seen.
 
xanthomondo said:
Here's another good graphic for attorneys:

Not to mention you have to sell your soul to be a lawyer

http://www.payscale.com/index/US/Job/P for those who want all the specialties
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If you could adjust the graphic to show averages for just the lawyers who have worked as many hours as it would have taken them to become doctors, I think they'd be more relevant ... plus taken into account differential cost and time of training for doctors and lawyers, then compared them to the salary of the type of doctor they would have become ...
 
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jult24er said:
Because I would be able to get into a top law school and be hired into a top firm.
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Yes, and I'm going to go to Harvard Medical and become the Surgeon General.

You sir, may have the weakest argument I have ever seen, just let it go, you're wrong.
 
Gallix23 said:
No, it's not an opinion. Multiple people have provided statistical evidence proving you wrong, and yet you continue to argue this point.
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How many times do i have to repeat my point? i don't think the average lawyer salary vs average doctor salary statistic answers the question - is it easier to make money by becoming a doctor or a lawyer?
 
jult24er said:
How many times do i have to repeat my point? i don't think the average lawyer salary vs average doctor salary statistic answers the question - is it easier to make money by becoming a doctor or a lawyer?
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The lowest paid lawyers earn like $55k/year. The lowest paid doctors earn like $125k/year. You go to a low ranking law school and you'll earn like $65-70k average. You go to a low ranking medical school and you can earn $160k/year+ as an internist or hospitalist.
 
circulus vitios said:
The lowest paid lawyers earn like $55k/year. The lowest paid doctors earn like $125k/year. You go to a low ranking law school and you'll earn like $65-70k average. You go to a low ranking medical school and you can earn $160k/year+ as an internist or hospitalist.
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Do you know how much effort/talent it takes to get into a low ranking law school? do you know how much effort I put into getting rejected by every medical school i applied to last year?

And even then you're still not taking into account the extra year and cost of medical school and the three years in residency.

I'll grant you that, one of the reasons we're probably arguing about this is that, the relative ease of making money by going into law or medicine is probably different for every person ... however, i'd guess that, for the average person that becomes a doctor, it is easier to make money by going into law ... I could be wrong, but im pretty sure thats true for, at least, me ...
 
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First of all, the vast majority of physicians are selfish and barely have the time to be altruistic even if they wanted to be. Next, no one goes into medicine solely because theyre altruistic... there are a lot of jobs out there that wont have you 50% of the time doing paperwork and other scutwork and would give you a much better means of helping others with your time. Furthermore, it usually is the case that a physician works better when he/she is not too emotionally invested in their patients.. it could get distracting.

Finally, if youre the type of person that just doesnt want to deal with the direct helping of people, or gets annoyed when patients try to ask you to go out of your way for them... theres always radiology or pathology 🙂
 
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