Should MDs be allowed to participate in AOA residency programs?

[bth7]

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Hey all,

I'm sure many of you saw this article in the The DO magazine this month:

Slumping OGME piques educators at summit.

It includes a report on a discussion that took place at the summit on Osteopathic Graduate Medical Education (OGME) this past November.

Basically, OGME is broken. In 2006, there were 6,045 residency positions available in AOA programs. 51% of those slots went unfilled. And 55% of osteopathic graduates chose not to enter a an AOA residency, and instead opted for an allopathic (ACGME) residency.

So the questions are:

• What is wrong with OGME?
• Why do more than half the slots go unfilled every year? Why do more and more DO graduates chose an allopathic residency?
• How can the the programs be improved to attract more DO graduates?
• Should MD graduates be allowed to apply to AOA residencies?
• Will allowing MD graduates to fill some of the many unfilled spots help improve the programs? What are the consequences of admitting MD graduates into osteopathic residencies?

Check out the article and share your thoughts.

bth

 

[bravotwozero]

I would say that the basic problem with OGME is that most of the residency programs are in primary care, in undesirable locales, and in small, community hospitals, where patient caseload and clinical exposure is much smaller than compared to a GME program at a large urban hospital.

I fully support MDs being allowed to match into AOA programs. The ACGME/AMA does not discriminate against DOs, so why does the AOA continue to discriminate against MDs?

Secondly, by having a combined match, most/all AOA residencies would have to meet the same stringent accreditation standards as an ACGME residency, which could only be a good thing.

 

[ShyRem]

I truly believe that if we want to go into the ACGME match, we should let MDs in the AOA residency match. We often espouse how it's not the initials that make a good physician. Likewise, there are plenty of MDs who hold a more osteopathic philosophy. We demand to be allowed into those "hallowed halls of allopathic medicine"... should we not reciprocate? We demand to be equal. Yet how can we truly be equal unless we also allow allopathic physicians into our realm?

Yes, there should be requirements. MDs would need to take OMM. But OMM only does not an osteopath make. We uphold firmly that the education is the same with the exception of OMM - indeed we scream it to the heavens. So let's teach it to our MD colleagues and allow each MD or DO to choose their philosophy of medicine (heck, half the DOs currently choose a more allopathic philosophy now). I think it would do both degrees a world of good.

 

[supervic8]

since we have to take usmle of a lot of their programs, i thikn they shoudl have to "optionally" take the comlex for the osteopathic residencies. i didn't see this as an option so i didn't vote. otherwise, let them in.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Hey all,

I'm sure many of you saw this article in the The DO magazine this month:

Slumping OGME piques educators at summit.

It includes a report on a discussion that took place at the summit on Osteopathic Graduate Medical Education (OGME) this past November.

Basically, OGME is broken. In 2006, there were 6,045 residency positions available in AOA programs. 51% of those slots went unfilled. And 55% of osteopathic graduates chose not to enter a an AOA residency, and instead opted for an allopathic (ACGME) residency.

So the questions are:

• What is wrong with OGME?
• Why do more than half the slots go unfilled every year? Why do more and more DO graduates chose an allopathic residency?
• How can the the programs be improved to attract more DO graduates?
• Should MD graduates be allowed to apply to AOA residencies?
• Will allowing MD graduates to fill some of the many unfilled spots help improve the programs? What are the consequences of admitting MD graduates into osteopathic residencies?

Check out the article and share your thoughts.

bth

Although I'm still a couple years from the match, here is my [hypothetical] perspective.

For the fields that I am interested in currently (EM and surgery), there exists only 1 program for each in the entire state of California, both at Arrowhead. Their program takes 3 into surgery and up to 6 in EM. I know that the pathology and exposure at those programs are outstanding and the EM residents I've spoken to are really happy there. I haven't talked to surgery residents yet. However, 3 spots for GS and 6 spots for EM in the entire state is unacceptable.

So facing the option of applying to 1 program that takes 6 grads and is in a "less than desirable" geographical location vs. applying to the 13 ACGME programs and are in what, for me at least, are better locations (with the exception of a couple), I'm taking the ACGME route.

That being said, I'd take Arrowhead over many other ACGME programs, but I'd take a few ACGME programs over Arrowhead. If we had a single rank list (both ACGME and AOA programs) that didn't involve automagically excluding you from the other if you matched one, this problem wouldn't exist. I'd just rank my 2 or so ACGME programs, Arrowhead, then the rest of the ACGME programs. Alas, this is not an option.

So those are my thoughts on an aspect of OGME that may affect me personally.

Additionally, I do feel that MDs should be allowed to apply for AOA residencies, it seems only fair. Do I think many will apply? Not really. I don't really think it would help improve the quality of programs either.

Lastly, I have no idea how to improve OGME to attract more DO grads. For me, its a simple matter of geography and quality of training (pathology exposure, didactics, etc..). I suppose if we create more quality programs and at least attempt to pretend that DO grads might want to train on the west coast in fields other than FP, and institute a single rank list, then I'll be happy to apply to AOA programs. Obviously others will have different criteria.

-shrug-

 

[Orthodoc40]

I am not necessarily a typical MD student. It seems to me that as long as DO students feel and/or are discriminated against when applying to MD programs, the DO programs should go to DO students first. If I was a DO student I'd want to know that I had a fall back if things weren't to work out as I had hoped. Well, I want that anyway.

 

[travoltage]

the AOA just pisses me off so much! they are so stubborn. they need to:

1. open DO residencies to MD's
2. establish residencies at big city hospitals, not as many community hospitals
3. open fellowships
4. quit being so narrow minded and sucking!

my 2 cents

 

[Dr. Wexler]

This raises a lot of interesting questions to think about.

Would the match be combined (if not I could see a lot of MDs forgoing the osteopath match due to not wanting to be locked into a DO program if they matched, just as some DOs do now)?

Would these MDs be certified by the osteopath boards?

Would ACGME get some say over osteopathic residency accredidation standards(I presume they would want some)?

Would MD grads from osteopathic residencies be eligible for MD fellowships?

At any rate, I cannot see it happening.

 

[ShyRem]

They tried to do a combined match a few years ago. According to Strosnider, the AOA refused because it would be a permanent merger -- in other words, if the AOA decided they didn't like it, they couldn't undo the combined match. But it has apparently been discussed. I think it's time for the students to rise en masse and demand it.

 

[Shinken]

the AOA just pisses me off so much! they are so stubborn. they need to:

1. open DO residencies to MD's
2. establish residencies at big city hospitals, not as many community hospitals
3. open fellowships
4. quit being so narrow minded and sucking!

Yeah, it's that easy isn't it? 🙄

The AOA gets blamed for everything, but the AOA has NOTHING to do with residencies at big city hospitals and fellowships. When the hospital I rotated at opened new IM and Ortho residencies they did it, not the AOA. The AOA doesn't go around looking and saying "Hmmm...maybe we should have a residency in dermatology here." Please. It's like someone from Duke complaining that the AMA sucks because the Duke Family Medicine residency is malignant.

Also, opening DO residencies to MDs is not as simple as it sounds. The ACGME and the different allopathic medical boards have to accept osteopathic training for MD docs. You could accept MDs into a DO residency tomorrow and the MDs that graduate would not be able to practice medicine nor become board certified in whatever specialty they completed.

 

[WoahMedicine]

The service will be flooded with FMGs. It is not like US allopathic students are going to be coming in droves for the AOA approved residencies. Why would the AOA consent? What is in it for them? Would these allopathic students have to take comlex and comlex PE? How would the PE site in Pennsylvania accommodate all these new test takers?

👎

 

[RockfordWF]

What a silly survey!

DO's are often discriminated against in the MD match and often have only the DO match as a guaranteed place for residency.

If you start allowing MD's to enter the DO residency, you will push the DO's out and eventually out of business.

 

[Dr. Wexler]

DO's are often discriminated against in the MD match and often have only the DO match as a guaranteed place for residency.

If you start allowing MD's to enter the DO residency, you will push the DO's out and eventually out of business.

This is not the argument to put forward if you also want to claim the DOs are just as qualified as MDs. Keeping the matches separate makes it look like DOs need to have a back-up in case they want an allo residency but can't get one. If the match is combined will some DOs not match into their specialty or program of choice because they were beaten out by an MD? Probably. Will some DOs who would have normally 'settled' for the AOA match apply to allo programs and match? Probably.

Keeping the match separate and allowing DO's to match into allo residencies but not the reverse makes it look like either:
(1)AOA is saying "MD grads are not qualified for AOA residencies"
(2)ACGME is saying "AOA residencies do not meet the standards we set for allopathic residencies"

I think most reasonable people come to the same conclusion when considering the two possibilities above.

 

[endocardium]

They tried to do a combined match a few years ago. According to Strosnider, the AOA refused because it would be a permanent merger -- in other words, if the AOA decided they didn't like it, they couldn't undo the combined match. But it has apparently been discussed. I think it's time for the students to rise en masse and demand it.

I am also in favor of a combined match. However, I'd like to see dual accreditation as well, if we are going to do that.

 

[DrWBD]

LOL at the idea of "allowing" MDs into AOA programs
I doubt that, if such a thing was enacted, a graduate of any respectable U.S. MD program would be rushing to join an AOA family med residency in the sticks somewhere. The programs would just fill with FMGs, and they wouldn't be the best and the brightest FMGs either.
The AOA needs to stop drinking their Kool-aid and just admit the real reason that most DOs don't give a crap about AOA residencies.

 

[medicine1]

I used to think this was a good idea, but I was a second year then, and did not have the clinical experience to tell me otherwise. I have rotated in both civilian and military hospitals, and from my experience I would much rather do my residency training at an osteopathic hospital. To do any kind of osteopathic research in an allopathic residency would be very difficult to do. The overall approach to health and wellness, and using osteopathic manipulative medicine is shunned in most allopathic residency training programs, whereas I can continue my osteopathic training, gain more experience in how to approach disease processes with the principles and practice of osteopathy. Most MDs that I have talked to think Osteopathy is chiropractic with no research behind it, or any evidence based medicine. Most of these MDs are actively ignorant of osteopathic research, or the principles behind osteopathy. I believe that DOs need to stand up for what they believe in, and take action. Go to an osteopathic hospital to train, and do research to strengthen our profession, rather than trying to weaken what we stand for. Allowing MDs to train would be futile to our approach to patient care. Already MDs claim to be certified in osteopathy by taking six hour courses in osteopathy, etc. At Harvard, they teach MDs osteopathy, but more of it is memorizing treatments, rather than the overall encompassing idea of the person and their disease state, and how to reestablish homeostasis and health.

 

[scpod]

the AOA just pisses me off so much! they are so stubborn. they need to:

1. open DO residencies to MD's...

I agree with this one. It's really the first step toward a combined match, which would allow students to truly rank their favorites in order. Some people are worried about foreign students getting the spots, but it would work just like it does now-- they would be the last choices to fill the spots. The bottom line is that if the spots are not filled, we will lose funding for them soon and NOBODY will fill them.

2. establish residencies at big city hospitals, not as many community hospitals...

Easy to say, but not easy to do. 89% of hospitals in the US are "non-teaching" hospitals of 400 beds or less. Most physicians will eventually be working in one of these anyway. Plus, the larger hospitals that already have residencies cannot create new ones due to the cap in funding. The law would have to be changed before that can happpen-- not something the AOA can just make happen. Besides, the AOA can't just create residencies. Those are created locally by hospitals, often in affiliation with medical schools. The AOA can help, especially with lobbying congress for change, but they are from form the sole party responsible in this case.

3. open fellowships...

The thing holding this back is the AOA requirement that the director of a new fellowship must be AOA board certified in that specialty. There just aren't enough of these people to go around. So, a Harvard trained MD isn't good enough to lead the program, for example. This is something the AOA CAN change, but it won't happen without a lot of hard work on the part of everyone. Just bitching about it won't get it done.

4. quit being so narrow minded and sucking!...

If you want them to change, you'll have to do it from the inside. Become a member, become a big wheel at the state level and work your way into the top. If you sit around and just complain about the AOA without doing anything constructive, it won't ever change. If you avoid it because you don't like their policies, then the people making policies will not hear your voice. It's really easy to say, "They suck!" but it's much harder to change the way things are done. Are you willing to put forth the effort it takes to make things better? Think about that.

 

[DrWBD]

If you want them to change, you'll have to do it from the inside. Become a member, become a big wheel at the state level and work your way into the top. If you sit around and just complain about the AOA without doing anything constructive, it won't ever change. If you avoid it because you don't like their policies, then the people making policies will not hear your voice. It's really easy to say, "They suck!" but it's much harder to change the way things are done. Are you willing to put forth the effort it takes to make things better? Think about that.

No thanks.

Why fix something that is broken beyond repair? The entire concept of separate osteopathic GME is fundamentally flawed. Since ACGME accreditation is the de facto standard of medical training in the US, AOA accreditation is basically an unspoken admission that a program can't meet ACGME standards.

If the AOA continues to ignore the will of a majority of its members it will be to its ultimate detriment. Witness the decline of the AMA as evidence. A majority of DOs not supporting their representative organization, I think, would be a lot more effective than your proposal of basically kowtowing to the AOA leadership to make "change".

 

[medicine1]

I think the students, and physicians that are for letting MDs train in osteopathic residency programs are nearsighted, and do not see the long term sequelae. Of course the sad part is there are limited options to osteopathic residencies, in terms of locations and specialties, but only half of those available osteopathic residency slots are still open after the match. A temporary fix would be to allow MDs to train in DO residency programs. If this is the case, then MDs should be required to take our boards (COMLEX), and they should have to take extra courses in OPP, take an examination and pass, receiving proper certification in osteopathic medicine. We are worried about loosing more and more paid government residency slots, but if we are so worried, why do we not participate more and go into DO residencies? We would rather have foreign graduates take DO slots, rather than DOs take those slots?

 

[cyclohexanol]

I think the students, and physicians that are for letting MDs train in osteopathic residency programs are nearsighted, and do not see the long term sequelae.
Of course the sad part is there are limited options to osteopathic residencies, in terms of locations and specialties, but only half of those available osteopathic residency slots are still open after the match. A temporary fix would be to allow MDs to train in DO residency programs. If this is the case, then MDs should be required to take our boards (COMLEX), and they should have to take extra courses in OPP, take an examination and pass, receiving proper certification in osteopathic medicine. We are worried about loosing more and more paid government residency slots, but if we are so worried, why do we not participate more and go into DO residencies? We would rather have foreign graduates take DO slots, rather than DOs take those slots?

If programs met satisfactory criteria for more applicants, more applicants would apply. This is the problem, the criteria are not being met.

I'm not about to compromise my training to fulfill the agenda of AOA, other DOs, or anyone else for that matter.

 

[gclax30]

I think it's a matter of principle first and foremost. How can the AOA scream discrimination against DOs in the allopathic world and demand equal treatment if they aren't doing the same for MDs? Stomping your feet and pouting like a child does little to improve your credibility and shows that you're not ready to move forward and unify an unnecessarily divided field.

 

[gclax30]

http://www.tugsa.net/pub_do0208training.pdf

This says it ALL:

"At MSUCOM, 90% of our graduates
fill OGME positions," Dr Strampel
pointed out. "That's because I control
their clerkship environment in the
third and fourth years. When these students
see osteopathic medicine practiced
during their clerkships, they come
to realize that this is the kind of environment
they'd like to remain in.
"When you send DO students to
allopathic clerkships and that's all they
see for two years, it's not surprising that
they would favor MD training. What
we need to do is encourage osteopathic
medical schools to take an active role
in clerkship training. We don't need to
open our residency programs to MDs."

Since when did I agree to pay $300k for an education AND have my career decisions dictated to me? Telling me where I am "allowed" to get my clinical education? Oops, sorry if I'm interested in oh I don't know, pathology???

Welcome to the Joseph Stalin School of Osteopathik Medicine- Indoctrinating physicians for the good of the Party, whether they like it or not.

Go F--K yourself 😡

 

[medicine1]

Or rather, what do we learn in osteopathic medical school that allopathic medical students don't learn? Could it be our perception of the body, health, disease, treatment modalities, OPP, OMT, etc.

Dr. Still, who developed Osteopathy, was an MD, and as a matter of fact was a surgeon during the American Civil War. Of course, our profession is intimately tied to the allopathic world, it is also separate, with separate principles, and the unique idea that a trained osteopathic physician can diagnose and treat patients with his or her hands, and can incorporate other modalities (drugs, surgery, cognitive-behavior therapy, etc., that have sound scientific evidence). Yes, it is true we discriminate against MDs, when it comes to post graduate medical training. But MDs also discriminate against us. When I rotated in allopathic hospitals, that had DO residents, I know for a fact that the DO residents were instructed that they were not allowed to use OMT, or permitted to write osteopathic diagnoses.

You must ask yourself, of these MDs who want to train in our post-graduate programs, will they listen to the faculty, will they learn from the staff, will they know how to incorporate OPP into their practice? How will they be examined? Once an MD graduates from an osteopathic residency, who will grant them eligible for the specialty boards, and what will state boards require. The AOA would be allowed to control MD licensure, or at least board eligibiltiy, etc.

 

[Kubed]

Perfect world:
1) DO residencies are open to US MD's
2) Unified match
3) DO schools utilize the usmle and stop making us take 2 sets of boards
4) Integration of specialty colleges

I've got no problem being a DO in a MD world, I just wish there were fewer extra hurdles thrown in there

 

[Orthodoc40]

Keeping the matches separate makes it look like DOs need to have a back-up in case they want an allo residency but can't get one.

But as long as there is discrimination in MD residency programs, maybe it's not a bad idea to have 'backups'?

 

[MaximusD]

Thing is, you could have checked the list beore you went to the school of affiliated rotation sites. If you are an MSU-COM student, there is no one to blame except yourself. I don't want to hear you bitch when all of the information was available to you. 👎

http://www.tugsa.net/pub_do0208training.pdf

This says it ALL:

“At MSUCOM, 90% of our graduates
fill OGME positions,” Dr Strampel
pointed out. “That’s because I control
their clerkship environment in the
third and fourth years. When these students
see osteopathic medicine practiced
during their clerkships, they come
to realize that this is the kind of environment
they’d like to remain in.
“When you send DO students to
allopathic clerkships and that’s all they
see for two years, it’s not surprising that
they would favor MD training. What
we need to do is encourage osteopathic
medical schools to take an active role
in clerkship training. We don’t need to
open our residency programs to MDs.”

Since when did I agree to pay $300k for an education AND have my career decisions dictated to me? Telling me where I am "allowed" to get my clinical education? Oops, sorry if I'm interested in oh I don't know, pathology???

Welcome to the Joseph Stalin School of Osteopathik Medicine- Indoctrinating physicians for the good of the Party, whether they like it or not.

Go F--K yourself 😡

 

[Instatewaiter]

A temporary fix would be to allow MDs to train in DO residency programs. If this is the case, then MDs should be required to take our boards (COMLEX), and they should have to take extra courses in OPP, take an examination and pass, receiving proper certification in osteopathic medicine.

Why on earth would a decent student want to jump over so many extra hurdles when he/she can get into an ACGME program?

We are worried about loosing more and more paid government residency slots, but if we are so worried, why do we not participate more and go into DO residencies? We would rather have foreign graduates take DO slots, rather than DOs take those slots?

Being a martyr for the cause sucks.

Thing is, you could have checked the list beore you went to the school of affiliated rotation sites. If you are an MSU-COM student, there is no one to blame except yourself. I don't want to hear you bitch when all of the information was available to you. 👎

How many pre-med students know to look into these things?
-Not very many.

 

[drchick331]

http://www.tugsa.net/pub_do0208training.pdf

This says it ALL:

“At MSUCOM, 90% of our graduates
fill OGME positions,” Dr Strampel
pointed out. “That’s because I control
their clerkship environment in the
third and fourth years. When these students
see osteopathic medicine practiced
during their clerkships, they come
to realize that this is the kind of environment
they’d like to remain in.
“When you send DO students to
allopathic clerkships and that’s all they
see for two years, it’s not surprising that
they would favor MD training. What
we need to do is encourage osteopathic
medical schools to take an active role
in clerkship training. We don’t need to
open our residency programs to MDs.”

I have to wonder how the admin felt about an OGME match rate of only 70% this year....

 

[Kappy1]

I think it would be great to have MD's in our residency programs it only seems fair they accept us in to allopathic programs. But they will have to learn OMM. The question would be when should they learn it? If it would be before the program starts, that would mean taking a year or more of CME courses, if it isn't offered in their school which as far as I know no MD school (if some does know of a MD school that teaches it I would be interseted in knowing) teaches OMM. If they don't learn it before they would start the program it would mean more time and money spent teaching them the techniques during the program which may not be worth it. Anyone know how many Osteopathic trained MD's there are or the number of MD's that take CME in OMM per a year? If the number is really low it may not be worth it to do.

Just my $0.02

 

[bth7]

I think it would be great to have MD's in our residency programs it only seems fair they accept us in to allopathic programs. But they will have to learn OMM. The question would be when should they learn it? If it would be before the program starts, that would mean taking a year or more of CME courses, if it isn't offered in their school which as far as I know no MD school (if some does know of a MD school that teaches it I would be interseted in knowing) teaches OMM. If they don't learn it before they would start the program it would mean more time and money spent teaching them the techniques during the program which may not be worth it. Anyone know how many Osteopathic trained MD's there are or the number of MD's that take CME in OMM per a year? If the number is really low it may not be worth it to do.

Just my $0.02

Perhaps a one month, OMM only rotation with an OMM specialist would be sufficient to get them up to speed. Then they could continue to practice their skills alongside their DO colleagues throughout their residency.

Seems like a month of only OMM is more than enough to get the idea.

bth

 

[Kappy1]

Perhaps a one month, OMM only rotation with an OMM specialist would be sufficient to get them up to speed. Then they could continue to practice their skills alongside their DO colleagues throughout their residency.

Seems like a month of only OMM is more than enough to get the idea.

bth

How many MD's take CME coureses in OMM per a year? Where could I find such stats?

 

[DO Anes]

Perhaps a one month, OMM only rotation with an OMM specialist would be sufficient to get them up to speed. Then they could continue to practice their skills alongside their DO colleagues throughout their residency.

Seems like a month of only OMM is more than enough to get the idea.

bth

A month of OMM...
Pretty shaky excuse for having an entirely separate profession. But I suppose that is the elephant in the room (or house of cards) that no one wants to talk about. The forces pusing toward a nationwide California-style conversion/merger to one profession are overwhelming. It's just a matter of time.

 

[bth7]

A month of OMM...
Pretty shaky excuse for having an entirely separate profession. But I suppose that is the elephant in the room (or house of cards) that no one wants to talk about. The forces pusing toward a nationwide California-style conversion/merger to one profession are overwhelming. It's just a matter of time.

Agreed.

Place your bets anyone? Who can guess the year?

 

[schrute]

What a silly survey!

If you start allowing MD's to enter the DO residency, you will push the DO's out and eventually out of business.

DOs are pushing themselves out of business. I'm doing the allo match because there aren't any freaking residencies in the field I'm entering...no, not simply the 'none in my geographic locaiton' issue...there are no DO pathology residencies. Even if there was 1 or 2 DO path residencies...why would I limit myself?

The same scenario is applicable to MANY other specialties: ophtho, rads, ENT, etc...there are more of these programs than path (obviously) but why the hell would anyone limit their post grad training just to 'go DO'?

Now, I somewhat agree with the assumption someone made a few posts back, in that if we DID open the spots up to MDs, we'd get BOMBARDED with FMG applications...no doubt...the only silver lining I can see to that cloud is that you'd probably have to combine the matches...

And it's not always that DOs are blatently discriminated against, but when you have uber-smart people applying to uber-competitive specialties of which there are only a few spots, it's an easy way to narrow the applicant pool by making requirements like..."you need to have a USMLE score" or "you need to score 2__ on the USMLE."

 

[scpod]

Who can guess the year?

2157. It might actually be before that...but it won't be in my lifetime.

 

[Shinken]

Agreed.

Place your bets anyone? Who can guess the year?

It won't happen. It will NEVER happen as long as there are people like me out there. Osteopathic medicine has been around for more than 130 years, has a huge infrastructure of past and present physicians, specialty boards, colleges, residencies, etc. It won't simply go away because a few malcontents are unhappy about the letter "M" or about no osteopathic residency programs in rural Oregon for DOs to specialize on surgery of the upper third of the left index finger.

What I see happening is a scaling back of available seats, perhaps a scaling back of schools (maybe back to the older, more established schools while the newer satellite ones are forced to close). Osteopathic medicine will not disappear but it will possibly become smaller, populated by people like me who see value in the DO degree and in manipulative techniques as an adjunt to more conventional types of therapy, and who value primary care.

Osteopathic medicine will go back to its roots but it will never go away.

 

[bth7]

It won't simply go away because a few malcontents are unhappy about the letter "M" or about no osteopathic residency programs in rural Oregon for DOs to specialize on surgery of the upper third of the left index finger.

Yes, stop the insanity. Clearly, hand surgeons and Oregon are entirely un-osteopathic.

 

[RockfordWF]

This is not the argument to put forward if you also want to claim the DOs are just as qualified as MDs. Keeping the matches separate makes it look like DOs need to have a back-up in case they want an allo residency but can't get one. If the match is combined will some DOs not match into their specialty or program of choice because they were beaten out by an MD? Probably. Will some DOs who would have normally 'settled' for the AOA match apply to allo programs and match? Probably.

Keeping the match separate and allowing DO's to match into allo residencies but not the reverse makes it look like either:
(1)AOA is saying "MD grads are not qualified for AOA residencies"
(2)ACGME is saying "AOA residencies do not meet the standards we set for allopathic residencies"

I think most reasonable people come to the same conclusion when considering the two possibilities above.

All of those statements you said above are true, supporting my reasons for keeping it separate.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Perhaps a one month, OMM only rotation with an OMM specialist would be sufficient to get them up to speed. Then they could continue to practice their skills alongside their DO colleagues throughout their residency.

Seems like a month of only OMM is more than enough to get the idea.

bth

How can I get this deal? I am a DO student and my mandatory 1 month OMM rotation during 3rd year happens to be with a preceptor who exclusively does cranial... 😡 I'd gladly trade it for something like what you mention, it's better than what we get now!

 

[bth7]

What I see happening is a scaling back of available seats, perhaps a scaling back of schools (maybe back to the older, more established schools while the newer satellite ones are forced to close).

They might want to stop opening new schools first, before they start closing them down. Might save some energy.

There's already 2 more new schools planned for 2009 or 2010, in Mississippi and Oregon. This is on top of Rocky Vista and Pacific Northwest opening next fall.


bth

 

[medicine1]

Amen! I am with you Shinken!



Osteopathic medicine will go back to its roots but it will never go away.[/QUOTE]

 

[spreebee]

The service will be flooded with FMGs. It is not like US allopathic students are going to be coming in droves for the AOA approved residencies. Why would the AOA consent? What is in it for them? Would these allopathic students have to take comlex and comlex PE? How would the PE site in Pennsylvania accommodate all these new test takers?

👎

Um... FMG's that earn their take would make it in the match...It's survival of the fittest out there....

 

[bth7]

Um... FMG's that earn their take would make it in the match...It's survival of the fittest out there....

Agreed, if they do the work, they should be allowed to compete.

 

[bravotwozero]

And it would be infinitely preferrable to having residency spots remaining unfilled, and public dollars going to waste as a result.

 

[WoahMedicine]

Um... FMG's that earn their take would make it in the match...It's survival of the fittest out there....

My point was not that I'm afraid that FMG's will take spots away from Osteopathic students or that I'm afraid U.S. Allopathic will take spots Osteopathic students. I just wanted to wash away any delusion that U.S. Allopathic students will be the primary ones taking advantage of opening up OGME.

Secondly, I don't know if the AOA has this in practice currently or not, but the new medical schools should have OGME set up and running in the area around their schools the same year as they open up. It should be percentile based on class size (spots and specialties). This way these school's new students will have programs with 3-4 years experience around the area. Opening up new schools and even current older schools with few promises of quality OGME is one of the main reasons so many Osteopathic students look toward Allopathic residencies.

 

[WoahMedicine]

What do you think would happen if the AOA closed the doors, (not that they even could) making an AOA approved residency a requirement for the Doctorate in Osteopathic Medicine?

 

[bth7]

What do you think would happen if the AOA closed the doors, (not that they even could) making an AOA approved residency a requirement for the Doctorate in Osteopathic Medicine?

I've never heard even a mention of this possibility. Certainly, they might go back to restricting AOA membership to an AOA approved residency (and largely do, though this has changed recently), but to restrict the D.O. to those who complete an AOA residency would be a radical redefinition of the degree.

bth

 

[cyclohexanol]

What do you think would happen if the AOA closed the doors, (not that they even could) making an AOA approved residency a requirement for the Doctorate in Osteopathic Medicine?

And would those who graduate from an osteopathic school but complete ACGME approved residency instead get to use MD?

 

[Coastie]

Why not open them up? All Allopathic are opened to D.O.

With the MASSIVE increase in MD graduates just around the corner, and the very real possibility that there may not be enough allopathic residencies for every MD graduate, one has to wonder: What if ACGME closed off Allopathic residencies to only MD holders? Very unlikely to happen, but the mere possibility should cause the AOA and Osteopathic grads to shudder.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

I am also in favor of a combined match. However, I'd like to see dual accreditation as well, if we are going to do that.

I agree with this.... dual accreditation should be the goal of all programs. MDs should be allowed to apply for DO residencies, mostly because DOs can apply to allopathic programs (it seems fair). The only problem is OMT, which allopathic schools obviously don't have. I honestly can say that osteopathic programs I've seen really don't do that much OMT anyways. To be honest, I really haven't seen too many DOs that use OMT at all in practice.