SlaveRPH

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I have always felt pharmacy leadership missed a great opportunity to move into the mainstream of patient therapy when they turned their heads on moving to a PA type degree. What do you all feel. seems like all this clinical push is really nothing more than a movement to PA type program.
 

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What does that mean? I'm not very familiar with what exactly a PA does
 

PharmDr.

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That would be my dream to have a pharmacists knowledge on drugs and bring clinical care to patients as a PA. But like every other health profession out there, overstepping ones boundaries would occur. PA's diagnose diseases and do hands on clinical care and pharmacists make sure everything is prescribed properly and are a critical checker in the system for errors. I know at UF you can get your pharmD and MPA at the same time which is real cool. You start the PA program the third yr. of pharm school.
 

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PharmDr. said:
That would be my dream to have a pharmacists knowledge on drugs and bring clinical care to patients as a PA. But like every other health profession out there, overstepping ones boundaries would occur. PA's diagnose diseases and do hands on clinical care and pharmacists make sure everything is prescribed properly and are a critical checker in the system for errors. I know at UF you can get your pharmD and MPA at the same time which is real cool. You start the PA program the third yr. of pharm school.
UW has a PharmD/PA program as well.
 

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Why PA when we will be PharmDs? With a PharmD, the opportunities are endless. In order to practice clinical pharmacy, we don't need a PA degree. We're unique.
 

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I do agree with what some of you are saying, I graduated from pharmacy school with my BSPS at UT, and now am enrolled in a PA-program. I do feel that pharmacy is the key to success in the clinical arena. Thats why I opted to receive my pharmaceutical sciences degree then enroll into a masters degree PA program.
 

emedpa

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DrPharm said:
Why PA when we will be PharmDs? With a PharmD, the opportunities are endless. In order to practice clinical pharmacy, we don't need a PA degree. We're unique.
a pa/pharmd can work in any clinical setting while a pharmacist is somewhat limited in what they can do clinically. no one will ever let a pharmd run a rural er solo or first assist in the o.r. but pa's do this all the time. the combined degree gives you a lot more clinical options.
 
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lord_helmet

I must speak up here, cause i dont any of my fellow compadres to fall into the pit of doom. Yes, having a PA degree behind your PharmD. degree would make you a very dangerous heath care provider. however, dont expect to see you get paid for each role you play. my dear friend recieved his pharmd and PA degree's and ventured out into the workforce... to his surprize, not many accept the fact that he can play both roles. to make matters worse, the is getting paid 25k less than a regular pharmacist.
Word of the wise: Get your pharmD. degree and do a residentcy... dont mess around, get your education and be done with school.

:idea:
 

28657

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lord_helmet said:
Yes, having a PA degree behind your PharmD. degree would make you a very dangerous heath care provider.
Could you please clarify. Did you really mean to say that you think a pharmD plus PA would make someone a dangerous health care provider?
 
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lord_helmet

imagine yourself with both degrees. Now, not only can u diagnose patient disease states, BUT you can tailor a medication schedule that will maximize the drug benefit to get your patient better.
How many times have you or heard of someone at a doctors office that gets seen, diagnosed, and gets a prescription that doesnt work for them? the patient then has to return to the doctors office, pay another copay and get another script... who wants to go through that?
As a PharmD/PA, (and lots of diagnosing pratice), you will be able to get your patients better faster, inform them on the correct way to take the med, answer any and all questions, and save them money at the same time. in fact, when i was at my doc's office last week, he gave me a script for something. i asked him what it was for, to test him, and he gave me a not very good explaination.
However, if you choose this route as a career, dont expect to get more money than a regular PA.
 

28657

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Ok - you're still not making much sense.
You say that a pharmD plus PA = dangerous.
But, I think you really mean pharmD plus PA = less dangerous.
Missing a couple words in your post can change the entire tone and meaning.
 
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lord_helmet

yes dangerous...
whats bad about the situation, is that you are not going to get paid more but less. I am not saying that money is everything, but who really wants to get both degrees and be paid less than if they just use their PharmD degree a pharmacy??
 

28657

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lord_helmet said:
yes dangerous...
whats bad about the situation, is that you are not going to get paid more but less. I am not saying that money is everything, but who really wants to get both degrees and be paid less than if they just use their PharmD degree a pharmacy??
:rolleyes:
Dangerous
1. Involving or filled with danger; perilous.
2. Being able or likely to do harm.


Unfortunate
1. Characterized by undeserved bad luck; unlucky.



I don't really want to sound like a b1tch, but your vocabulary needs a little work. Using the wrong words when you speak and write can be dangerous. :idea:

But yes, it is unfortunate that the extra education a pharmD plus PA receives may result in lower pay.
 

Sosumi

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I don't really see the point of a Pharm.D/PA unless you just really want prescribing privileges. All of those years could just be for med school + residency if you wanted to know about drugs while diagnosing and treating patients.

Some physician's assistants can make good money, however. The ones that work for my cousin's practice make about $140k/yr in Texas.
 

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i honestly do think it could be dangerous.... when waiting on the explination from another i thought i was going to hear.... decreased checks and balances...

the problem i have with the pharmD/PA program is that it just seems like the pharmacist wants to prescribe and dispense... there has been hot debate about whether MDs should be dispensing... i honestly don't think they should because of the decreased checks for the patient.

this would be the same reason i'm opposed to a pharmacist dispensing.... what if i make the wrong diagnosis? as a PA you do have training but not that of a physician.

If you were just to use a pharmD degree as sort of an extra bonus to help others in the office setting by managing polypharmacy (that you know about) and adverse effects, counseling etc.


i mean why really do you want both degrees? are your intentions for good or evil?
 

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Physicians can't dispense out of the office for profit, at least here. And PAs here have to operate under the oversight of a physician to prescribe. So, as far as I can see, knowledge is the only thing gained. You either pick one field or the other when all is said and done, right? I think that most people who complete the dual program want to be PAs. I'm not sure that I understand the logic behind the combinaton.
 

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Thought I'd give my 2 cents. The competence of a pharmacist should never be gauged by his/her ability to diagnose and ability to prescribe (aka play doctor). That's just not the direction that pharmacy should go. We can't or else the boundaries would be blurred and the public will view us as simply lesser versions of our prescribing colleagues.

I would say that the main thing that can be gained from the combination is that you get a more complete view of healthcare, all the way from the initial diagnosis to prescribing to dispensing and counseling. Definitely good for the intellectually curious. I myself would not mind learning a bit about being a diagnostician.

But society does not value such overly broad generalists. We need people who are proficient at their respective niches who will make up parts of the healthcare system, not people who can cover every single base there is. That's also why the PharmD/PA won't be financially compensated at a premium rate over regular PharmDs or regular PAs.
 

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SlaveRPH said:
I have always felt pharmacy leadership missed a great opportunity to move into the mainstream of patient therapy when they turned their heads on moving to a PA type degree. What do you all feel. seems like all this clinical push is really nothing more than a movement to PA type program.
Why waste time doing a PA/Pharm D. when you can be an MD instead.

However, being a PA/Pharm D. gives you a creer option if Pharm jobs reduce in the future.
 
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SlaveRPH

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in my town the PA's make as much or more than pharmacists. But consider the difference in work envionments. My god there is no comparison in those. The PA is in a real professional enviornment. Heck you even get lunch and potty breaks, primarily work monday thru friday and get many holidays off.


Sosumi said:
I don't really see the point of a Pharm.D/PA unless you just really want prescribing privileges. All of those years could just be for med school + residency if you wanted to know about drugs while diagnosing and treating patients.

Some physician's assistants can make good money, however. The ones that work for my cousin's practice make about $140k/yr in Texas.
 

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SlaveRPH said:
in my town the PA's make as much or more than pharmacists. But consider the difference in work envionments. My god there is no comparison in those. The PA is in a real professional enviornment. Heck you even get lunch and potty breaks, primarily work monday thru friday and get many holidays off.
Nationwide Average Salary of PA is lower than employed pharmacists. And there aren't many PAs who make more than employer pharmacists.

PAs are in a real professional environment? LOL.. well if you think Emergency Room...working graveyard making less than pharmacists is a good thing..then I guess being a PA is good.
 

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Sosumi said:
I don't really see the point of a Pharm.D/PA unless you just really want prescribing privileges. All of those years could just be for med school + residency if you wanted to know about drugs while diagnosing and treating patients.

Some physician assistants can make good money, however. The ones that work for my cousin's practice make about $140k/yr in Texas.

Some of my friends who are PAs in Dallas Texas make 70 to 80K per year. There are exceptions to every rule like ur cousin's practice PAs. I have pharmacist friends who own their own pharmacies... in 300K + per year bracket...

As far as the income potential goes, PA can't compete with successful pharmacist owner.
 

Sosumi

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ZpackSux said:
Some of my friends who are PAs in Dallas Texas make 70 to 80K per year. There are exceptions to every rule like ur cousin's practice PAs. I have pharmacist friends who own their own pharmacies... in 300K + per year bracket...

As far as the income potential goes, PA can't compete with successful pharmacist owner.
Right. My cousin's practice is the exception since he's a cardiothoracic surgeon, so I'm guessing his PAs have done surgery residencies and therefore making much more than the average PA. According to salary.com, the national average salary of a physician's assistant is $71,137 while the national average salary of a pharmacist is $91,773.

We had one pharmacist come speak to our class a few weeks ago who's active in lobbying for donations for our school. He owns his own pharmacy for about 30 years now and does over $25,000,000 in annual business. We're taught that pharmacists who own their own pharmacies take home about 8-10% of the gross. That means he takes home around $2,300,000/year :eek:
 

emedpa

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you can't compare a pharmd who owns a pharmacy to a new grad pa. for starters the avg pa salary listed above is a bit low. in 2003 the avg new grad working in primary care made 76k and change(this from official salary surveys of all practicing pa's at www.aapa.org).
http://www.aapa.org/research/04-inflation-income.pdf
most pa's in surgery and em, even without a residency, make signifricantly more than this. pa's who are partners in a practice or own a rural practice(this CAN be done-you just hire a retired md to review 10% of your charts) can make big bucks ( >200k/yr)
so let's compare apples to apples, ok
what does the avg pharmd new grad who works at walmart pharmacy make?
 

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emedpa said:
you can't compare a pharmd who owns a pharmacy to a new grad pa. for starters the avg pa salary listed above is a bit low. in 2003 the avg new grad working in primary care made 76k and change(this from official salary surveys of all practicing pa's at www.aapa.org).
http://www.aapa.org/research/04-inflation-income.pdf
most pa's in surgery and em, even without a residency, make signifricantly more than this. pa's who are partners in a practice or own a rural practice(this CAN be done-you just hire a retired md to review 10% of your charts) can make big bucks ( >200k/yr)
so let's compare apples to apples, ok
what does the avg pharmd new grad who works at walmart pharmacy make?
Walmart is starting out their new pharmacists @ around $50/hour (in the Phoenix area).
 

emedpa

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thank you amanda.
 

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Walmart is the devil.

I'm happy with my offer from another chain at $44/hour.
 

Sosumi

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emedpa said:
you can't compare a pharmd who owns a pharmacy to a new grad pa. for starters the avg pa salary listed above is a bit low. in 2003 the avg new grad working in primary care made 76k and change(this from official salary surveys of all practicing pa's at www.aapa.org).
http://www.aapa.org/research/04-inflation-income.pdf
most pa's in surgery and em, even without a residency, make signifricantly more than this. pa's who are partners in a practice or own a rural practice(this CAN be done-you just hire a retired md to review 10% of your charts) can make big bucks ( >200k/yr)
so let's compare apples to apples, ok
what does the avg pharmd new grad who works at walmart pharmacy make?
Salary.com's numbers are based on national surveys as well, but who knows how up to date their numbers are. If you're comparing apples to apples, the average graduating Pharm.D. still makes more on average than the average graduating P.A., at least in Maryland it is. The average increase may still not be more. Zpaksuck's point was that yeah, the earning potential of both potentials is great, but a successful pharmacy owner's potential is still greater. Such huge financial success in either profession is rare, however.

The original point is that it seems pointless to do a Pharm.D. in addition to a P.A. when both professions don't really overlap. If you want to be a P.A., why spend several more years in pharmacy school? If you want to be a pharmacist, why spend more classes and years for a P.A. degree?
 

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Sosumi said:
Salary.com's numbers are based on national surveys as well, but who knows how up to date their numbers are. If you're comparing apples to apples, the average graduating Pharm.D. still makes more on average than the average graduating P.A., at least in Maryland it is. The average increase may still not be more. Zpaksuck's point was that yeah, the earning potential of both potentials is great, but a successful pharmacy owner's potential is still greater. Such huge financial success in either profession is rare, however.

The original point is that it seems pointless to do a Pharm.D. in addition to a P.A. when both professions don't really overlap. If you want to be a P.A., why spend several more years in pharmacy school? If you want to be a pharmacist, why spend more classes and years for a P.A. degree?
Why be a PA? Because SlaveRph believes it's more professional :smuggrin:
 

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If you want to do clinical work, why would anyone do a PharmD/P.A. The no brainer is to get the MD. Otherwise, you will just end up as the doctor's lackey.

Sosumi said:
Salary.com's numbers are based on national surveys as well, but who knows how up to date their numbers are. If you're comparing apples to apples, the average graduating Pharm.D. still makes more on average than the average graduating P.A., at least in Maryland it is. The average increase may still not be more. Zpaksuck's point was that yeah, the earning potential of both potentials is great, but a successful pharmacy owner's potential is still greater. Such huge financial success in either profession is rare, however.

The original point is that it seems pointless to do a Pharm.D. in addition to a P.A. when both professions don't really overlap. If you want to be a P.A., why spend several more years in pharmacy school? If you want to be a pharmacist, why spend more classes and years for a P.A. degree?
 

emedpa

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this "lackey" works solo more often than not in a small emergency dept and only has to submit 10% of charts(chosen by me) within 1 month for review....oh,and I made just under 150k last year working 18 days/160 hrs a month....so back behind the counter selling fritos drug boy!
note this is only intended for the above hostile responder. I actually appreciate the role pharmacists play and consult them frequently. his attitude, however required an equally unpleasant response
 

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emedpa said:
this "lackey" works solo more often than not in a small emergency dept and only has to submit 10% of charts(chosen by me) within 1 month for review....oh,and I made just under 150k last year working 18 days/160 hrs a month....so back behind the counter selling fritos drug boy!
note this is only intended for the above hostile responder. I actually appreciate the role pharmacists play and consult them frequently. his attitude, however required an equally unpleasant response
Don't think he's a "drug boy". This troll doesn't like Pharm.D.s much neither, judging from his previous posts. He brings nothing to this discussion, and deserves a special place on your "Ignore List". Have you ever come across any Pharm.D./PA practitioners? Just curious, because the addition of a Masters PA program has been discussed at my school.
 

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I was agreeing with Paddyboy. If you want to work as a clinician, it makes no sense to do all this PA/PharmD stuff, when you can just do the MD. Pharmacists want to have the privilieges of doctors without going through MDs training. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

LVPharm said:
Don't think he's a "drug boy". This troll doesn't like Pharm.D.s much neither, judging from his previous posts. He brings nothing to this discussion, and deserves a special place on your "Ignore List". Have you ever come across any Pharm.D./PA practitioners? Just curious, because the addition of a Masters PA program has been discussed at my school.
 

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Julio Gomez said:
I was agreeing with Paddyboy. If you want to work as a clinician, it makes no sense to do all this PA/PharmD stuff, when you can just do the MD. Pharmacists want to have the privilieges of doctors without going through MDs training. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I have a friend named Julio Gomez. He is an illegal Mexican immigrant. Is this you? So many illegals in Stockton, CA. It is crazy!!!
 

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mbapharmd77066 said:
I have a friend named Julio Gomez. He is an illegal Mexican immigrant. Is this you? So many illegals in Stockton, CA. It is crazy!!!
Nah...Julio is a troll on the Pharmacist's Rant forum also.. he claims to be an auto mechanic...
 

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ZpackSux said:
Nah...Julio is a troll on the Pharmacist's Rant forum also.. he claims to be an auto mechanic...
Yeah it seems like that. Most Mexicans, here in CA, work as a mechanic, farmer or construction worker. They are taking the jobs of many many many Americans. I think it is unfair!!!
 

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What makes you think I bag fritos or even work as a pharmacist?

emedpa said:
this "lackey" works solo more often than not in a small emergency dept and only has to submit 10% of charts(chosen by me) within 1 month for review....oh,and I made just under 150k last year working 18 days/160 hrs a month....so back behind the counter selling fritos drug boy!
note this is only intended for the above hostile responder. I actually appreciate the role pharmacists play and consult them frequently. his attitude, however required an equally unpleasant response
 

emedpa

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LVPharm said:
Don't think he's a "drug boy". This troll doesn't like Pharm.D.s much neither, judging from his previous posts. He brings nothing to this discussion, and deserves a special place on your "Ignore List". Have you ever come across any Pharm.D./PA practitioners? Just curious, because the addition of a Masters PA program has been discussed at my school.
sorry...thought he was a pharm guy...ignore list it is.....
haven't met any of the pharmd/pa folks at the local program( u. wa.) yet but it looks like a great deal for them. I think they only have to add 1 semester of didactics and then they do the pa clinical year and it counts as the clinical year for both programs so it works out well. even if the pharmd/pa never practices full time it opens up new avenues for volunteer work or playing a more involved role in clinical trials. and worst case scenario, it's not a bad back up career.
 

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Dear forum moderator: This is an irrelevant post that should be removed. I am in support of more meal breaks that will cut down on prescribing errors and believe that pharmacists are not qualified to diagnose and encourage them to go to med school to be trained for this (and have made relevant posts concerning these matters) only to be met with hostility.

ZpackSux said:
Nah...Julio is a troll on the Pharmacist's Rant forum also.. he claims to be an auto mechanic...
 

LVPharm

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The several pharmacists I know of here in town with collaborative practice agreements have prescriptive privaleges. However, diagnosing patients is not what they do. Their responsiblity in the several clinics they work in is drug therapy management...and that's what they use those privaleges for. One of these clinics is an HIV clinic, and the physician relies on his clinical pharmacist (an expert in HIV pharmacotherapy) to "tailor" the drug regimens of his patients.

With the possible exception of those seeking the added qualification of a PA, I really don't hear anything about pharmacists seeking to add diagnosis to their scope of practice (with a Pharm.D. alone)...we're not trained for that.
 

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Julio Gomez said:
Dear forum moderator: This is an irrelevant post that should be removed. I am in support of more meal breaks that will cut down on prescribing errors and believe that pharmacists are not qualified to diagnose and encourage them to go to med school to be trained for this (and have made relevant posts concerning these matters) only to be met with hostility.
Dear Julio,

Grow some huevos and get some thicker skin while you're at it. If you can't handle the heat here, you surely don't have what it takes to be a physician.
 

bananaface

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Just a reminder that the proper way to handle posts violating TOS is to report them for moderation via the report bad post function or by PMing a moderator.

If someone's posts consistently annoy you, please place them on your ignore list rather than taunting them publicly. That creates an awful mess in the threads and makes this look like an unfriendly place to new incoming users.

Thanks!

- Anna :)