Should Teachers Be Required to Curve?

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NO, shouldnt have to curve, but damn 69 is pretty high, my genetics class 2 semesters ago had an average of 46%, luckily he normalizes to the second highest 😀

 

[scarletgirl777]

What are you talking about? Schools don't have an opinion on that any more unless you're a foreign kid. The quality is not "much" lower or even measurably so... This is not 1973. Get over yourself.

Did mommy homeschool your uni, too?

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asdfghjkl if cc's are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more low-level then whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy are all our allied health training there? what about the kids who go into mech and compsci and counselling and mortuary and emt/paramedic and early childhood/daycare and elem ed and shall i continue or do you get the point?

Um, yes they do. There are even schools who specifically say not to take prereqs at CCs on their websites. I'm too lazy to go back and look at the website of every school I investigated, but if anyone's interested they can do a search and many threads with specific school names will mention it.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

You found the massive flaws in my logic and I don't have an answer so i'll just cry about your comment.

I see.

 

[cpants]

Do you think they curve when the average is a D in med school? Nope. The class gets yelled at and the kids who failed get mandatory study consults. Don't make excuses. Earn a better grade, deal with the grade you've got, or drop the class.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

A grade signifies that you have understood the material at a certain level. A 40% shows you don't understand the material, and therefore don't deserve to pass.

Lol, its not me, I dont have a 40% average.

Im saying that if a CLASS of 200+ students is averaging around 40% on a test, there should be a curve. You disagree? You think a class beyond incredible odds just ended up with 180 out of 200 students that were complete idiots? Really?

I ask because averages like this were the standard in my Organic classes. Sometimes it would creep into the 50's but most of the test averages were in the 40's.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Do you think they curve when the average is a D in med school? Nope. The class gets yelled at and the kids who failed get mandatory study consults. Don't make excuses. Earn a better grade, deal with the grade you've got, or drop the class.

Lets say we have 120 super smart medical school students and all but 5 fail the test, the average is well into the F range. Was there something wrong with the test? Something wrong with the way the teacher taught it (or didn't teach it)? Or is it simply that you have 115 lazy idiots? Which would you believe to be most likely.

I'd go with the "teacher can't teach". Intelligent kids are very easy to teach, if the average is that low the teacher is obviously very very very bad at their job.

 

[scarletgirl777]

No, a 69 is not a low enough average to expect a curve, although giving one would be totally acceptable. Incidentally, I have found that averages in my upper division science coursework have been lower than in my introductory science coursework. A lot of people in this thread are acting like the material you need to learn in a given class is a constant. As if, just by saying "this is intro bio" there's some universal standard of what you're taught in a class, regardless of where you're taking the class or who's teaching it. That's complete and total BS. Not only is there a different standard in what you learn from class to class, there's also a different standard of how you're tested. Some intro bio courses are going to focus on memorization of key concepts. Some are going to focus on rote memorization of specific details. Some are going to test your problem solving skills, and ask you the kind of questions that a researcher must ask himself when designing experiments or investigating theories.

Most of us are high achievers, and I'm sure that many of you who say things like "that's nothing, the class average in MY course is like a 40" probably did several standards of deviations better in those classes, and thus were able to get the GPA you needed to even consider medicine as a possibility. Well, when you go to medical school, the band of ability is going to get a heck of a lot smaller, and when you suddenly discover that you are average or even *gasp* below average, I wonder if you'll still be insisting that the people who do badly on these tests are just lazy. When you have a class full of smart and driven people, who make a genuine effort, and students consistently do poorly, that means the test is bad or the teacher is bad. Personally, I prefer non-curved classes with tests that are designed well enough that a curve happens naturally, but a curve is still a half-way decent remedy for poor testmaking.

 

[236116]

Um, yes they do. There are even schools who specifically say not to take prereqs at CCs on their websites. I'm too lazy to go back and look at the website of every school I investigated, but if anyone's interested they can do a search and many threads with specific school names will mention it.

I just pulled ~6 threads. I see Case, and they're talking about foreign kids... UNC... nothing. WF... pre-reqs from ccs alone is "discouraged"...

I also see quite a few other people backing my position...

I see.

you're making colbert cry.


Confuzlement, I haz it.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

I just pulled ~6 threads. I see Case, and they're talking about foreign kids... UNC... nothing. WF... pre-reqs from ccs alone is "discouraged"...

I also see quite a few other people backing my position...


you're making colbert cry.


Confuzlement, I haz it.

Why are they discouraged? That's weird.

Why don't CC's open medical schools?

 

[kanoe]

The only thing that's obvious is that the class isn't doing their jobs. An average means there's probably people scored above that.

Look, [deleted so I don't violate ToS], stop shi tting on CCs, okay? Yeah, some of the kids there don't want to be and are only there b/c their parents make them go. Some of them can't afford even state tuition for 4 years and do an artic to get there after 2. Some are allied health kids.

SO DO ME A FAVOUR, PRE ALLO, AND STOP TALKING ABOUT CC'S LIKE THEY'RE THE HIDEAWAY HOME FOR PEOPLE WHO CAN'T HACK IT.

Ok, sounds pretty reasonable, there is no reason to hate.

No, clearly your class is too stupid to do well. Regardless of the "difficulty" or that the instructor is an "as s."

Curves are ridiculous and serve 2 purposes: to assuage the admin's distress over how high they score; and to mollycoddle whiny students who don't know how to suck it up.

I'd sure as hell let the class average a D and tenure the instructor like whoa.

Hypocritical? I think so.

At my school all science classes are curved. It is a good thing and bad thing. For example the bottom 12.5% of kids will get a D/F regardless of how well they did, even in upper division courses. Only 15% of people get A's, that includes -'s. The curve allows the teacher to ask unique interesting questions instead of having to ask the same old "boring" questions over and over again in order to maintain the straight scale.

Imagine how that it in a series class, first quarter the bottom 12.5% fail and can't take the next course, repeat for the 2nd quarter, and then by the time you reach the 3rd quarter you have a much more competitive pool of students.

I could not imagine taking my bcpm courses otherwise.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Hypocritical? I think so.

At my school all science classes are curved. It is a good thing and bad thing. For example the bottom 12.5% of kids will get a D/F regardless of how well they did, even in upper division courses. Only 15% of people get A's, that includes -'s. The curve allows the teacher to ask unique interesting questions instead of having to ask the same old "boring" questions over and over again in order to maintain the straight scale.

Imagine how that it in a series class, first quarter the bottom 12.5% fail and can't take the next course, repeat for the 2nd quarter, and then by the time you reach the 3rd quarter you have a much more competitive pool of students.

I could not imagine taking my bcpm courses otherwise.

I think what he/she is saying is that a professor can never fail to do their job. All of them are infallible. Because if they did make a mistake, such as failing to properly cover the material, the average would be really low and all do the professors error....justifying a curve.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I just pulled ~6 threads. I see Case, and they're talking about foreign kids... UNC... nothing. WF... pre-reqs from ccs alone is "discouraged"...

I also see quite a few other people backing my position...


you're making colbert cry.


Confuzlement, I haz it.

From the Case website:

"Does the School of Medicine accept premedical requirements that were taken at community colleges?
Not usually. We strongly discourage students from taking ALL of their science pre-requisites at a community college."

Where's the mention of foreign kids? Clearly there are students who get into medical school with a cc prereq, but it appears that it is not something that will help your app.

From the Pritzker website:
Q. Can I take my prerequisites at a community college?

A. Generally speaking, community college courses are not viewed as having a similar level of rigor as the courses provided at four-year institutions. There are certainly many reasons to pursue your first two years of coursework at a community college prior to transferring to a four-year institution. Should you choose to do so, we would recommend either holding off on taking your prerequisite science course until you transfer to the four-year institution, or taking introductory level science courses at the community college and then planning to take upper-level science courses at the four-year institution.



So yeah, again, I'm sure people get in with cc prereqs, but it appears that it's really better if you just take it at a four-year. This is particularly interesting because they are making this suggestion even for people who are transferring from 2-year to 4-year schools, as opposed to those who attend a 4-year and taking prereqs at a 2-year postgrad or during the summer; the latter is arguably a less defensible position.


As for the argument that "quite a few other people" are backing your claim...I would go with what the schools actually say. These are just the schools that post this on the website and that came to me off the top of my head; I'm sure there are more.

 

[Forthegood]

Now of course certain classes are just plain hard. Organic chemistry is one of them. It would be dumb to expect an average of 70% on all exams in that class if the tests actually cover the material but when you have an extreme skew (40% averages in an intro to zoology course) then its probably not the students.

No. Actually, organic chemistry is really not all that hard, if taught properly. And yes, i agree about the general premise. Easy classes shouldnt have low averages, this signifies unfair grading/exams. But really, we are talking about BASIC science core requirements. They are not overly hard or easy, and thus, its the students responsibility.

Everyday that goes by I feel like the kids posting on sdn get more and more obnoxious.

To answer the OP's question, yes the professor should be required to curve in these kinds of situations.

Agreed.

They are lower quality and that's why medical schools want your pre-reqs done at a real school.

They are not public research institutes... no, but that doesn't mean they are not quality schools. Just like everything, it's what you make of it. And grading IS usually easier, and ADCOMs take this into account when evaluating applicants.

And why do you have to say "real school"? Are you just trying to pick a fight? Seriously, jurassicpark girl will kick your ass. Ive seen her do it before.

I'm calling troll, since it's either that or you're too dumb to live.

There is no SDN requirement of higher than a cerebellum for posting privileges.

A grade signifies that you have understood the material at a certain level. A 40% shows you don't understand the material, and therefore don't deserve to pass.

Agreed!

Do you think they curve when the average is a D in med school? Nope. The class gets yelled at and the kids who failed get mandatory study consults. Don't make excuses. Earn a better grade, deal with the grade you've got, or drop the class.

Perfect example.

I ask because averages like this were the standard in my Organic classes. Sometimes it would creep into the 50's but most of the test averages were in the 40's.

You have heard of weed out courses right? Some topics are not for the simple-minded student. Apparently, this is one of them. But that is NOT the professor's fault. You can explain a chair conformation shift 1000 times and sure enough, 50% of the class will miss it on a test. Yes, that is an intelligence gap, and yes, that is the student's fault.

 

[236116]

Hypocritical? I think so.

Which part? And use smaller maths, curves are totally bizarre still.

too much to quote

The Case thing was on a post, I think someone called and asked, but don't quote me.

As to the other part, they're still not saying: OMG THOU SHALT NEVER PARTAKE OF A CC, MUCH LESS A CC SCIENCE! It's, yeah, sure, we get it, just back it up with a 4yr.

 

[236116]

And why do you have to say "real school"? Are you just trying to pick a fight? Seriously, jurassicpark girl will kick your ass. Ive seen her do it before.

There is no SDN requirement of higher than a cerebellum for posting privileges.

You have heard of weed out courses right? Some topics are not for the simple-minded student. Apparently, this is one of them. But that is NOT the professor's fault. You can explain a chair conformation shift 1000 times and sure enough, 50% of the class will miss it on a test. Yes, that is an intelligence gap, and yes, that is the student's fault.

MARRY ME. 😍

QFT.

LOL intelligence gap.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Which part? And use smaller maths, curves are totally bizarre still.


The Case thing was on a post, I think someone called and asked, but don't quote me.

As to the other part, they're still not saying: OMG THOU SHALT NEVER PARTAKE OF A CC, MUCH LESS A CC SCIENCE! It's, yeah, sure, we get it, just back it up with a 4yr.

They are saying, "do everything you can to fulfill our pre requisites at a 4-year institution, even if you are going to a 2-year college and then transferring to the 4-year for whatever reason." Obviously, a big reason people take the transfer route is for personal hardship and to save money, so again, I think these statements are interesting. Regardless of how someone may or may not feel about CCs, the important thing here is figuring out how to best position yourself to get into medical school, so I don't think it's unreasonable to say adcoms look at CC courses in a less positive light. There's so much of this process that's outside of our control, so I think it's best to control whatever we can.

 

[236116]

adcoms look at CC courses in a less positive light. There's so much of this process that's outside of our control, so I think it's best to control whatever we can.

You're welcome to read it however you like.

 

[cpants]

Do you really think CC courses should be viewed as equivalent to 4-year university courses? Frankly, they just are not equivalent. I am not saying that people in CC's are *****s. I am aware that plenty of smart people do coursework there for financial or other reasons. I am saying the classes at CC's are much, much easier than classes at a decent 4-year institution.

 

[236116]

Do you really think CC courses should be viewed as equivalent to 4-year university courses? Frankly, they just are not equivalent. I am not saying that people in CC's are *****s. I am aware that plenty of smart people do coursework there for financial or other reasons. I am saying the classes at CC's are much, much easier than classes at a decent 4-year institution.

Have you been to a cc lately?

I swear to everliving g-d. They. are. the. same. classes. Sometimes they're even taught by the same instructors. Yeah, it's a 30 person limit instead of 300... but aside from that... same texts. Same accreditation... 4yrs would not recognise cc's as being equivalent to their own courses if they were not.

 

[kanoe]

Which part? And use smaller maths, curves are totally bizarre still.

The Case thing was on a post, I think someone called and asked, but don't quote me.

As to the other part, they're still not saying: OMG THOU SHALT NEVER PARTAKE OF A CC, MUCH LESS A CC SCIENCE! It's, yeah, sure, we get it, just back it up with a 4yr.

This is a curve

The mean is the average score.
The standard deviation, aka SD, is a number calculated using the mean and every single score as well.

In grading the mean is the cut off for a B-/C+
inbetween the mean and 1 SD is the B- through B+ range
inbetween 1 SD and 2 SD is the A- through A, and above 2 SD is an A+

Below the mean, but before the -SD mark is C+ through C-
From -1 SD to -2 SD is all the D's
From -2 SD and on is an F

Please let me know if you have anymore questions, I hope through my use of "smaller maths" I have demystified the "total bizarreness" of curves for you.


PS I have taken classes at a CC and can attest that they are truly joke classes. I took microecon, macroecon, and spanish during the summer of my first year. If I was applying to either a MBA or graduate program invovling those subjects it would be looked down on, as if I took the easy way out, and that's because I did. Silly G.E.'s
It's a different story if you actually attend the CC full time, then that's perfectly fine, infact two of my friends who go to med school right now started off at the local CC.

 

[kanoe]

Have you been to a cc lately?

I swear to everliving g-d. They. are. the. same. classes. Sometimes they're even taught by the same instructors. Yeah, it's a 30 person limit instead of 300... but aside from that... same texts. Same accreditation... 4yrs would not recognise cc's as being equivalent to their own courses if they were not.

I think the real question is have you been to a cc recently?

The hand holding done by teachers is ridiculous.
The cheating done by students is ridiculous.
The recycling of high school difficulty exams is ridiculous.
And the sad thing is that I could keep going on and on and on.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I'm confused, what does more than others and less than others mean? Is the A on the left side of the curve?

 

[236116]

Please let me know if you have anymore questions, I hope through my use of "smaller maths" I have demystified the "total bizarreness" of curves for you.

Okay, so they are as ridiculous and pandering as I thought. Good to know.

Were you expecting Spanish to be difficult? 😕

Then you go to a shi tty school. There's a difference. Curves are handholding and cheating is rampant everywhere. And as far as micro/macro go, it's my understanding that business/accounting/econ majors for MBA/grad schools are required to take further courses to assure adcoms that they do have the level of knowledge being sought... which is why it's recommended that if you do prereqs at a cc, that you take upper levels at a 4 yr...

 

[cpants]

Have you been to a cc lately?

I swear to everliving g-d. They. are. the. same. classes. Sometimes they're even taught by the same instructors. Yeah, it's a 30 person limit instead of 300... but aside from that... same texts. Same accreditation... 4yrs would not recognise cc's as being equivalent to their own courses if they were not.

I'll admit that I haven't taken a class at a CC in about 5 years, but I have taken courses at both and they didn't really compare. Yes, the classes had the same titles, the same textbooks, but they sure didn't have the same tests and the same curve. A lot of 4-years will not accept some CC credit, especially when it comes to major classes. I truly don't hate on CC's, I think they have an important role, and do a lot of good for a lot of people. Speaking from my own experience, however, the classes are orders of magnitude less difficult than the state and private 4-year university courses I have taken.

 

[236116]

I'll admit that I haven't taken a class at a CC in about 5 years, but I have taken courses at both and they didn't really compare. Yes, the classes had the same titles, the same textbooks, but they sure didn't have the same tests and the same curve. A lot of 4-years will not accept some CC credit, especially when it comes to major classes. I truly don't hate on CC's, I think they have an important role, and do a lot of good for a lot of people. Speaking from my own experience, however, the classes are orders of magnitude less difficult than the state and private 4-year university courses I have taken.

This is no longer true. There are formalised articulation agreements all over the place to ensure that CC's are transferable. I don't know about curves, none of my classes (in any level) have had curves... most have had C averages. I am also assuming that you are comparing, say... intro bio from a cc, and cell from a 4yr? If they were the same, there would be a point for concern.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I'll admit that I haven't taken a class at a CC in about 5 years, but I have taken courses at both and they didn't really compare. Yes, the classes had the same titles, the same textbooks, but they sure didn't have the same tests and the same curve. A lot of 4-years will not accept some CC credit, especially when it comes to major classes. I truly don't hate on CC's, I think they have an important role, and do a lot of good for a lot of people. Speaking from my own experience, however, the classes are orders of magnitude less difficult than the state and private 4-year university courses I have taken.

Yeah, her assertion there confused me. A lot of state schools will take community college credit from their local community college because its keeping with the mission and purpose of a public school system, but you can't necessarily take your CC credits and cart them across the country to any random school. Even if you get accepted for transfer admissions, the major you may want to major in might reject the classes in that subject that you took at your CC.

 

[kanoe]

Okay, so they are as ridiculous and pandering as I thought. Good to know.

Were you expecting Spanish to be difficult? 😕

Then you go to a shi tty school. There's a difference. Curves are handholding and cheating is rampant everywhere. And as far as micro/macro go, it's my understanding that business/accounting/econ majors for MBA/grad schools are required to take further courses to assure adcoms that they do have the level of knowledge being sought... which is why it's recommended that if you do prereqs at a cc, that you take upper levels at a 4 yr...

How is a curve hand holding? Defend your statements.

I'll start, I disagree because it requires the student to outperform the rest of the class, or at least a majority of the class, to do well.

My "shi tty" school is one of the best CC's in the state of california with one of the highest uc transfer rates.

Yes I was expecting spanish 3 to be difficult, I had not taken a spanish class in over two years and had fuzzy memory of the language.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

how did this thread get on the subject of community college?? Of course community college is easier with few exceptions, but for alot of ppl taking classes at a local CC is still a good decision. Save yourself alot of money take some prereqs at a CC and prove yourself in upper level classes at the 4 year univ.

 

[kanoe]

Okay, so they are as ridiculous and pandering as I thought. Good to know.

Were you expecting Spanish to be difficult? 😕

Then you go to a shi tty school. There's a difference. Curves are handholding and cheating is rampant everywhere. And as far as micro/macro go, it's my understanding that business/accounting/econ majors for MBA/grad schools are required to take further courses to assure adcoms that they do have the level of knowledge being sought... which is why it's recommended that if you do prereqs at a cc, that you take upper levels at a 4 yr...

Pandering?
Good sir explain this statement too please.
And in the future refrain from cursing in arguments, it shows that you are either at loss for words, or that you lost the argument.

 

[scarletgirl777]

This is no longer true. There are formalised articulation agreements all over the place to ensure that CC's are transferable. I don't know about curves, none of my classes (in any level) have had curves... most have had C averages. I am also assuming that you are comparing, say... intro bio from a cc, and cell from a 4yr? If they were the same, there would be a point for concern.

You can't FORCE a university to treat other school's courses as equivalent. I definitely knew transfers to my school from other 4-year universities who had to retake classes in order to major in what they wanted, so I'm sure they treat community college transfers the same way.

 

[circulus vitios]

I think classes should be curved if the students are continually performing poorly. A professor telling students to 'study harder next time' when the class average is below a 70% is laziness on the professors behalf.

If previous classes have done well and it's just this one class that's having trouble, then the students are partly to blame...but the professor at least should try teaching the material a bit differently.

 

[236116]

How is a curve hand holding? Defend your statements.

Pandering? Good sir explain this statement too please.

I. AM. A. GIRL. Although I wouldn't mind being Samuel L Jackson, he's a BAMF.

Well, duh, then, on the Spanish. 🙄

Shi tty is now in general use as an adjective to describe a particularly low-level of production, state of being, or construction.

The after-the-fact curves allow people to whine their way into a better grade. The other sort inspires cheating, whining, back-stabbing, and a host of other minor-ish sins. There are those who have been raised to believe that they are entitled because they are special and if they do not have the highest marks it is because someone else screwed up.


Chubbs, I'm not sure. SG, I did not say that it was true of all schools in all cases. There are articulation agreements, and they are widespread. I do know that Engineering in particular is one that doesn't tend to have them.

 

[Bacchus]

Its fine not to curve if the average is a C. I've had several organic tests where the average is in the 40's, had the test not been curved about 80-90% of the class would have failed. Thats either poor teaching, or the test was too difficult. They basically have to curve or they'd be stuck with a back log of 1000's of kids trying to get through the few organic classes they offer each semester.

I don't think you read what I said above this.

 

[kanoe]

I. AM. A. GIRL. Although I wouldn't mind being Samuel L Jackson, he's a BAMF.

Well, duh, then, on the Spanish. 🙄

Shi tty is now in general use as an adjective to describe a particularly low-level of production, state of being, or construction.

The after-the-fact curves allow people to whine their way into a better grade. The other sort inspires cheating, whining, back-stabbing, and a host of other minor-ish sins. There are those who have been raised to believe that they are entitled because they are special and if they do not have the highest marks it is because someone else screwed up.

I don't think this is solely applicable to schools with a curve. I think it is equally applicable to a school that works on a absolute scale.
"Professor I am only X points away from Y grade can't you round me up???"

My apologies good madam for the gender confusion.

 

[Bacchus]

Just a reminder, we like to stay on topic here at SDN. Below is the original post for all of you that have forgotten it:

So if the class average on a test is 69%, shouldn't the teacher be obligated to curve the grades? No joke, the class averaged a 69 on the first test in this class. You'd think the guy would realize that his tests were too difficult and offer a bit of leniency, but instead he seems intent on being an a**

BTW, this is an upper-level science class. A large percentage of the class has already been accepted to med school. So it's not like it's a class full of *****s. The test was just impossibly hard. The university won't allow the class to average a D, will they?

 

[boggvir]

Lol, its not me, I dont have a 40% average.

Im saying that if a CLASS of 200+ students is averaging around 40% on a test, there should be a curve. You disagree? You think a class beyond incredible odds just ended up with 180 out of 200 students that were complete idiots?.

Yes, they were. I can't speak to your class, but my sister's organic tests averaged in the 40s and there were curves. I am doing a post-bac, and the average is around a 88 and there is no curve.

I looked at the test, and they were identical. The difference? The students in my post-bac class are motivated and study. It's not a matter of being an idiot, it's a matter of not putting in the time. Frankly, I would have saved myself a lot of hassle if I had done the post-bac with my sister at her undergrad. If I knew this, I might have done it. But if I had gotten a 50, it would have been my fault because I would have fell into the same habits that plagued me in my undergrad days.

 

[236116]

I don't think this is solely applicable to schools with a curve. I think it is equally applicable to a school that works on a absolute scale.
"Professor I am only X points away from Y grade can't you round me up???"

My apologies good madam for the gender confusion.

I suppose. The idea of doing so is so very anathema that I can't really conceive of it.

Thanks. 🙂

The students in my post-bac class are motivated and study. It's not a matter of being an idiot, it's a matter of not putting in the time. Frankly, I would have saved myself a lot of hassle if I had done the post-bac with my sister at her undergrad. If I knew this, I might have done it. But if I had gotten a 50, it would have been my fault because I would have fell into the same habits that plagued me in my undergrad days.

👍

 

[saveourpens]

Who cares how the rest of the class is doing? In my gen chem 1 class, all the test averages were in the 60s, and I would've managed an A even without the curve.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

Who cares how the rest of the class is doing? In my gen chem 1 class, all the test averages were in the 60s, and I would've managed an A even without the curve.

a 60 test average in a gen chem class with a bunch of freshman is nothing like an upper level science 60 test average. The people in the upper level classes are the ones who made As and Bs in gen chem.

 

[Forthegood]

Pretty much everyone above is correct, but exaggerating their side.

Luckily, ADCOMs know ALL of that, and take it into consideration. Hense, the academic index.

I'm cool with SDN arguments without meaning, but i feel like some of you think there is actually some meaning here. There is not. Don't forget that.

 

[236116]

Pretty much everyone above is correct, but exaggerating their side.

Luckily, ADCOMs know ALL of that, and take it into consideration. Hence, the academic index.

I'm cool with SDN arguments without meaning, but i feel like some of you think there is actually some meaning here. There is not. Don't forget that.

que?

and also sf_d and s_f are super slow tonight. 🙁

 

[Oh No Not Again]

The second quarter of my organic chemistry classes the average on the first midterm was 32%. I think the high was a 90%. If it was not curved most of the class would have failed.

 

[Handinhand]

The school I go to currently isn't that prestigious and for lack of a better word the faculty in the science departments are atrocious. For someone planning on going to medical school I guess it could be worse; I mean when the teacher's lectures are a power point of our books, we're obviously not going to learn a lick from him, so it teaches me to go sit my ass down in the library and teach myself. Annoying? Yes, and it's taken me a while to adjust from being spoon fed everything in highschool to the point where I didn't need to even do homework to get an A; to taking classes where we have no assignments, but I'm always doing all the problems from the back of the book and looking for more.

Should a teacher curve? Yes and no. I think it should be conditional to the student personally. In my Gen chem class I got a B and A- respectively with no curve; because the professor knew the general amount of people in the class spent their thursdays, fridays, saturdays and sundays drinking themselves into the ground. Add that to a professor who changed his format pretty much every test and made them difficult; and I was getting 80% while having one of the top grades in the class.

Really; when it boilds down to it though, whether or not the professor is a competent teachers is irrelevant though. If you're good at the material and put in the effort you will start doing well, it just might not be immediate. You've got to figure that sometime in scientific history what you're covering was unknown and it took someone to make the leap to understand it. Except you don't need to rediscover it, you have a text book that I'm guessing does an ample job at explaning it; which is why you buy one for each class you take.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

You have heard of weed out courses right? Some topics are not for the simple-minded student. Apparently, this is one of them. But that is NOT the professor's fault. You can explain a chair conformation shift 1000 times and sure enough, 50% of the class will miss it on a test. Yes, that is an intelligence gap, and yes, that is the student's fault.

So you believe there should be no curve in such a class? Leaving 80-90% of the students failing 160-180 of the students in each organic class, each semester would be failing. Sounds good to me because i would have passed but the piling up of students would become so massive they would have to use the football stadium to teach organic chemistry. If you have students of even average intelligence, they can learn organic chemistry. The fact that almost your entire class has a failing grade on the traditional grading scale means you (the professor) can't do your job.

Oh, and Organic is a weed out course at my school and i think just about every school. The failure rate is still somewhere around 15-20%, even higher if you consider that a C- doesn't satisfy the requirement for your major here.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

Yes, they were. I can't speak to your class, but my sister's organic tests averaged in the 40s and there were curves. I am doing a post-bac, and the average is around a 88 and there is no curve.

I looked at the test, and they were identical. The difference? The students in my post-bac class are motivated and study. It's not a matter of being an idiot, it's a matter of not putting in the time. Frankly, I would have saved myself a lot of hassle if I had done the post-bac with my sister at her undergrad. If I knew this, I might have done it. But if I had gotten a 50, it would have been my fault because I would have fell into the same habits that plagued me in my undergrad days.

Post-bacc students have more knowledge than first time through the system undergrads. Plus, post-bacc GPA's are always higher, always.

Look, i'm not saying there aren't a bunch of stupid kids taking these courses. I'm just saying there comes a point when the grades get so low that it becomes very obvious the teacher can not do his job. Do you agree or disagree with that?

What would it take the average being for you to say a teacher can not properly teach? 30? 20? I believe a class average of 40 says a lot about the teaching skills of a professor.

 

[MDman87]

Wow, I didn't realize I was opening Pandora's box. Bottom line, you guys are right. A 69 doesn't need to be curved. . . not at all. When I think about it, that is an average class score. . . at any school. The only trouble with this particular class is that I'm one of the ones making up the lower end of the spectrum. This is completely foreign to me - I'm used to A's and high B's, so a D on my first test in a class came as a complete shocker. I guess more than anything I was just venting. . . letting off a little steam. Now that a few hours have passed, I see the big picture. Bottom line: I have to buckle down and work my tail off to bring it up. I'm just going to have to suck it up and make it through. . . somehow. Thanks everybody for bringing me to my senses; it's pretty sobering to realize I can't always be the best and brightest

And as for the CC debate, I would have to say that their classes are not up to the same standards as four-year universities. No offense to anybody, that's just how I feel about it. Just as there are superior 4-year universities (the Harvards and Stanfords of the world), I think there's an academic divide between 4-years and CCs. . . just a personal opinion though

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

The second quarter of my organic chemistry classes the average on the first midterm was 32%. I think the high was a 90%. If it was not curved most of the class would have failed.

According to most people here, that's just because your class was stupid.

 

[RySerr21]

jurrasicpark = nomoreamcas = douchebag

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Do you think they curve when the average is a D in med school? Nope. The class gets yelled at and the kids who failed get mandatory study consults. Don't make excuses. Earn a better grade, deal with the grade you've got, or drop the class.

We got yelled at after 6 of 8 organic chemistry exams (3 per semester). We were told that we were stupid and don't think, that we were the worst class in our profs 15 years experience, and that we should not even bother studying. It was rough, but that's life. (Oh, and since the class ended, the prof has been much nicer to those of us that don't hold a grudge.)

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

jurrasicpark = nomoreamcas = douchebag

What was incorrect about what i said?