Should URMs be eliminated on amcas application?

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Should URMs be emininated on amcas application?

  • Yes

    Votes: 19 36.5%

  • No

    Votes: 33 63.5%
  • Total voters
    52
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Dr. Biology

Dr. Biology

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Before I start I am looking for an intelligent discussion, not a flame war. It seems that many med school hopefuls are looking for a leg up on the competition because they are a "Under Represented Minor". your acceptance into medical school should be based solely on humanitarian and academic acts, not your skin color or nationality. I find it a bit sad that I see posts such as "im 1/32 native American on my step dads side, am I a URM?". what are your opinions on this?
 
I think the thread title is worded in a horribly misleading fashion.
Also it is typoed, which is a far lesser issue.
Finally, I don't really think you can post this without inviting an eventual flame war. I wish you luck, though!
 
Your title is inflammatory enough in a forum that has seem the issue discussed to death. So, moderators, keep eyes open!


Dr. Biology said:
Before I start I am looking for an intelligent discussion, not a flame war. It seems that many med school hopefuls are looking for a leg up on the competition because they are a "Under Represented Minor". your acceptance into medical school should be based solely on humanitarian and academic acts, not your skin color or nationality. I find it a bit sad that I see posts such as "im 1/32 native American on my step dads side, am I a URM?". what are your opinions on this?
Click to expand...
 
i think the socioeconomical status is a valid factor and concern to be taken into account while viewing applicants.
 
Should people who were born with an ear for music be eliminated from listing any musical activities? Should people who are naturally gifted at sports be barred from listing any sports? Should people who are excellent test takers not have their MCAT count?

Your race/ethnicity is just a component of your application and diversity is valuable to the field of medicine. Just stop it with these flame threads.
 
hoihaie said:
i think the socioeconomical status is a valid factor and concern to be taken into account while viewing applicants.
Click to expand...

While I agree that SES is a factor that could influence the adversity a person faces, the main point of considering race is diversity, not a "reward" for overcoming whatever struggles you may have to overcome.
 
urms need to be a part of the application because it's one of the only parts of the evaluation process that are subjective and the fact that med school admissions even bother to differentiate between individuals based on their circumstances is a damn good thing. MCAT scores should count for way less though, you're being tested on material that you'll never use most of again in your life and being a perfect test taker doesn't mean you're going to be a good doctor. if you want doctors who are perfect test takers just admit robots to medical school. Standardized tests don't show if someone is compassionate, has emotional depth, or has strong mental fortitude.
 
Aerus said:
Should people who were born with an ear for music be eliminated from listing any musical activities? Should people who are naturally gifted at sports be barred from listing any sports? Should people who are excellent test takers not have their MCAT count?

Your race is just a component of your application and it is valuable to the field of medicine. Just stop it with these flame threads.
Click to expand...
People take advantage of it. I don't care if your Asian, African American, White, Hispanic, Pacific Islander etc., but how does the fact your dad is from Venezuela make you a better candidate? my point is shouldn't it be merit based? because clearly skin color and nationality does not make you a better doctor, so why is it so important?
 
Aerus said:
While I agree that SES is a factor that could influence the adversity a person faces, the main point of considering race is diversity, not a "reward" for overcoming whatever struggles you may have to overcome.
Click to expand...
Low SES perspective IS diversity. Med is saturated with overprivileged people who have no idea about the culture, difficulties, or choices seen in low SES communities. Considering how much of the patient population comes from this group, it's one of the most, if not the most, important form of diversity that could be added.
 
terp720 said:
so is this just confirming it's a troll thread?
Click to expand...
No its sarcasm. Under-Represented Minors is what URM means. If your not going to contribute, then excuse yourself from the discussion.
 
you should read into affirmative action background, cases, and court arguments
 
mrh125 said:
urms need to be a part of the application because it's one of the only parts of the evaluation process that are subjective and the fact that med school admissions even bother to differentiate between individuals based on their circumstances is a damn good thing. MCAT scores should count for way less though, you're being tested on material that you'll never use most of again in your life and being a perfect test taker doesn't mean you're going to be a good doctor. if you want doctors who are perfect test takers just admit robots to medical school. Standardized tests don't show if someone is compassionate, has emotional depth, or has strong mental fortitude.
Click to expand...
Med schools want the above AND they want good standardized test takers. As it's a seller's market, they can ask for both.
 
mehc012 said:
Low SES perspective IS diversity. Med is saturated with overprivileged people who have no idea about the culture, difficulties, or choices seen in low SES communities. Considering how much of the patient population comes from this group, it's one of the most, if not the most, important form of diversity that could be added.
Click to expand...

Yeah, hence why I think that's the most important factor to consider.
 
Aerus said:
While I agree that SES is a factor that could influence the adversity a person faces, the main point of considering race is diversity, not a "reward" for overcoming whatever struggles you may have to overcome.
Click to expand...
WRONG. Low SES background IS diversity. How you can not see that is beyond me.
 
Dr. Biology said:
People take advantage of it. I don't care if your Asian, African American, White, Hispanic, Pacific Islander etc., but how does the fact your dad is from Venezuela make you a better candidate? my point is shouldn't it be merit based? because clearly skin color and nationality does not make you a better doctor, so why is it so important?
Click to expand...

Diversity is the most powerful tool in facilitating understanding in, not just in an individual, but a whole class.
 
Last edited:
Dr. Biology said:
No its sarcasm. Under-Represented Minors is what URM means. If your not going to contribute, then excuse yourself from the discussion.
Click to expand...
A minor is a person under the age of 18.
A minority is a person who identifies with a group of people which is not the majority in this country - generally understood to be straight middle class white people, though definitions vary slightly.

Important distinction.
 
mehc012 said:
Low SES perspective IS diversity. Med is saturated with overprivileged people who have no idea about the culture, difficulties, or choices seen in low SES communities. Considering how much of the patient population comes from this group, it's one of the most, if not the most, important form of diversity that could be added.
Click to expand...

I never said "low SES is NOT diversity". So many people on SDN make the argument that SES should be considered because of "rich, Black applicants abusing the system" that I had to clarify that. I never argued against the post I quoted at all. I just HAD to bring that up.

DermViser said:
WRONG. Low SES background IS diversity. How you can not see that is beyond me.
Click to expand...

Please reread my post as well as my reply above. I never said it wasn't diversity. I am combating the incredibly common argument on SDN that "people should consider SES because there are poor White people who faced struggles too, so their adversities should be considered more, if not a replacement, for race". I am not claiming the person I quoted meant that, but I had to bring up that point for future posters in the thread.
 
DermViser said:
Uh, no. URM = Underrepresented Minority, Mr. Nerdiest SuperHero.
Click to expand...
Oh my bad, I forgot the -ity at the end of that. clearly everyone here understands the meaning, lets be adults
mehc012 said:
A minor is a person under the age of 18.
A minority is a person who identifies with a group of people which is not the majority in this country - generally understood to be straight middle class white people, though definitions vary slightly.

Important distinction.
Click to expand...
listen its 2 am here, cut me some slack we all know what it means. that's why were debating it.
 
Dr. Biology said:
No its sarcasm. Under-Represented Minors is what URM means. If your not going to contribute, then excuse yourself from the discussion.
Click to expand...
DermViser said:
Uh, no. URM = Underrepresented Minority, Mr. Nerdiest SuperHero.
Click to expand...


You mean Underrepresented in Medicine (according to the AAMC definition)?
 
Dr. Biology said:
Oh my bad, I forgot the -ity at the end of that. clearly everyone here understands the meaning, lets be adults

listen its 2 am here, cut me some slack we all know what it means. that's why were debating it.
Click to expand...
Minor does not equal Minority. Having relations with one will land you in jail. Hopefully, you're smart enough to know which one.
 
DermViser said:
Uh, no. URM = Underrepresented Minority, Mr. Nerdiest SuperHero.
Click to expand...

Initially it meant this but after 2003 AAMC changed it to Underrepresented in Medicine.

The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) definition of underrepresented in medicine is:

"Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."
 
Aerus said:
I never said "low SES is NOT diversity". So many people on SDN make the argument that SES should be considered because of "rich, Black applicants abusing the system" that I had to clarify that. I never argued against the post I quoted at all. I just HAD to bring that up.



Please reread my post as well as my reply above. I never said it wasn't diversity. I am combating the incredibly common argument on SDN that "people should consider SES because there are poor White people who faced struggles too, so their adversities should be considered more, if not a replacement, for race". I am not claiming the person I quoted meant that, but I had to bring up that point for future posters in the thread.
Click to expand...
I did read your post, and I still think that it implies the sentiment I initially responded to, even though it doesn't say it directly.
I am glad to hear that your actual thoughts on the matter differ, though.
 
DermViser said:
Minor does not equal Minority. Having relations with one will land you in jail. Hopefully, you're smart enough to know which one.
Click to expand...
But what if they are Minority Minor who is also a Miner? how will I ever tell the difference?:scared:
 
mehc012 said:
I did read your post, and I still think that it implies the sentiment I initially responded to, even though it doesn't say it directly.
I am glad to hear that your actual thoughts on the matter differ, though.
Click to expand...

I'd like to bring up that I am a VERY VERY strong advocate for diversity on SDN. In order to even speak on these issues, I must be informed on how diversity can benefit, not only a medical school class, but society as a whole. There is such a thing as racial diversity (which is still a problem), gender diversity (which is in a much better state, but can still be improved), SES diversity (which will definitely alleviate a large problem in medicine throughout the past century), and many many other forms of diversity.

BUT, there are people on SDN who interpret the "URM" as a "boost for minorities who face certain struggles" and then bring up that "people of low SES face a lot of struggles as well, so where is their boost?" That is not the main point of URM and I want to really emphasize that.
 
Mr Interesting said:
Initially it meant this but after 2003 AAMC changed it to Underrepresented in Medicine.

The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) definition of underrepresented in medicine is:

"Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."
Click to expand...
Yes, it seems to have changed in response to the Gruttner case dealing with racial diversity and quotas.
 
Aerus said:
I'd like to bring up that I am a VERY VERY strong advocate for diversity on SDN. In order to even speak on these issues, I must be informed on how diversity can benefit, not only a medical school class, but society as a whole. There is such a thing as racial diversity (which is still a problem), gender diversity (which is in a much better state, but can still be improved), SES diversity (which will definitely alleviate a large problem in medicine throughout the past century), and many many other forms of diversity.

BUT, there are people on SDN who interpret the "URM" as a "boost for minorities who face certain struggles" and then bring up that "people of low SES face a lot of struggles as well, so where is their boost?" That is not the main point of URM and I want to really emphasize that.
Click to expand...
You are correct URM is only for those with struggles of a particular skin color. Thank you for confirming.
 
Aerus said:
I never said "low SES is NOT diversity". So many people on SDN make the argument that SES should be considered because of "rich, Black applicants abusing the system" that I had to clarify that. I never argued against the post I quoted at all. I just HAD to bring that up.



Please reread my post as well as my reply above. I never said it wasn't diversity. I am combating the incredibly common argument on SDN that "people should consider SES because there are poor White people who faced struggles too, so their adversities should be considered more, if not a replacement, for race". I am not claiming the person I quoted meant that, but I had to bring up that point for future posters in the thread.
Click to expand...

I was waiting for your leftist propaganda and you did not disappoint <3
Good thing America does not agree with you
http://www.gallup.com/poll/163655/reject-considering-race-college-admissions.aspx

kthxbye
 
Fabio Lanzoni said:
I was waiting for your leftist propaganda and you did not disappoint <3
Good thing America does not agree with you
http://www.gallup.com/poll/163655/reject-considering-race-college-admissions.aspx

kthxbye
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, you (as well as many others) do not understand the subtle differences between medical school admissions and regular college admissions.

In regular college admissions, race is considered more as a history of struggle. Undergraduate admissions diversify their class in order to eliminate centuries of historical, institutional discrimination.

In medical schools, the main reason why diversity is important is because it is VERY beneficial to a class of future Physicians as well as the quality of medical care in general.
 
touchpause13 said:
Med school admissions =/= college admissions.

Apples and oranges
Click to expand...

I gotchu - I understand plenty well why those are different, it don't mean I'm ever gonna agree with either one. I'm sure the majority of Americans would agree with me if there was a poll for med school admissions. Notice how the demographics that benefit the most like it the most
 
Maybe in the future we'll have all black hospitals too, I can't wait!
 
Aerus said:
I'd like to bring up that I am a VERY VERY strong advocate for diversity on SDN. In order to even speak on these issues, I must be informed on how diversity can benefit, not only a medical school class, but society as a whole. There is such a thing as racial diversity (which is still a problem), gender diversity (which is in a much better state, but can still be improved), SES diversity (which will definitely alleviate a large problem in medicine throughout the past century), and many many other forms of diversity.

BUT, there are people on SDN who interpret the "URM" as a "boost for minorities who face certain struggles" and then bring up that "people of low SES face a lot of struggles as well, so where is their boost?" That is not the main point of URM and I want to really emphasize that.
Click to expand...
Yup. I understand that and I completely agree with you! I just didn't think your first post made it clear.
You have now, we're on the same page. I've seen the sorts of arguments you are referring to and I do believe it is an important distinction. I see what you were going for, we're 100% good. I hope you can understand why I reacted to what I thought you were saying, initially. Anyway, I'm out now, as we're saying the same thing and the rest of this discussion is making me sad (and deja vu-y).
 
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