Should URMs be eliminated on amcas application?

[DermViser]

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ANOTHER one of these!?

Another reason SDN SERIOUSLY needs the function of removing a thread from one's view.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Unfortunately, you (as well as many others) do not understand the subtle differences in medical school admissions and regular college admissions.

In regular college admissions, race is considered more as a history of struggle. Undergraduate admissions diversify their class in order to eliminate centuries of historical, institutional discrimination.

In medical schools, the main reason why diversity is important is because it is VERY beneficial to a class of future Physicians as well as the quality of medical care in general.

Yeah keep telling me things I already know. Your ever-extreme-left ideologies might work here and get likes from other liberals but in the real world it don't work like that

 

[Aerus]

Yeah keep telling me things I already know. Your ever-extreme-left ideologies might work here and get likes from other liberals but in the real world it don't work like that

Anybody who is opposed to diversity is sadly uninformed. I don't care how many people in this country are against diversity. That just makes me more sad about how uninformed the world really is about these issues. I'm not even leftist. I grew up in a Republican family. I'm Asian. If anything, I SHOULD be against this. But anyone who is against this is pushing us backward. Without diversity, there will never be equality.

 

[terp720]

Another reason SDN SERIOUSLY needs the function of removing a thread from one's view.

You know you could actually just use the ignore function and this thread really would be removed from your view, right?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Anybody who is opposed to diversity is sadly uninformed. I don't care how many people in this country are against diversity. That just makes me more sad about how uninformed the world really is about these issues. I'm not even leftist. I grew up in a Republican family. I'm Asian. If anything, I SHOULD be against this. But anyone who is against this is pushing us backward. Without diversity, there will never be equality.

Your post is full of ridiculous blanket statements.

1- I'm not against diversity, nor is America against diversity. That poll and myself are saying we do not support race being taken into consideration for admissions. What makes me sad is that you have no reading skills and think you are so enlightened.
2- Your family's political lean has nothing to do with your own political beliefs
3- "Without diversity, there will never be equality" - Yes, so let's start on that road by unequally giving demographics advantages. You do not right a wrong by doing another wrong. You want equality? Treat everyone equally

 

[mehc012]

You know you could actually just use the ignore function and this thread really would be removed from your view, right?

That's...not how the ignore function works. It's sadly far less useful than that. It accomplishes exactly zero...pretty useless, actually.

 

[terp720]

That's...not how the ignore function works. It's sadly far less useful than that. It accomplishes exactly zero...pretty useless, actually.

Actually i just tried it. When i ignored OP, all his threads went away too.

 

[Aerus]

Your post is full of ridiculous blanket statements.

1- I'm not against diversity, nor is America against diversity. That poll and myself are saying we do not support race being taken into consideration for admissions. What makes me sad is that you have no reading skills and think you are so enlightened.
2- Your family's political lean has nothing to do with your own political beliefs
3- "Without diversity, there will never be equality" - Yes, so let's start on that road by unequally giving demographics advantages. You do not right a wrong by doing another wrong. You want equality? Treat everyone equally

Your post is so contradictory. You do not understand diversity AT ALL.

First, let's address undergraduate college admissions. The reason why race is considered at all is because admissions is INHERENTLY NOT EQUAL. Look at the statistics of admissions. It is so skewed towards White and Asian people. If you are claiming that people of Caucasian and Asian ancestry are inherently smarter and/or harder working, then our discussion is done.

Now, regarding medical school admissions, race SHOULD be considered because there are people from historically marginalized communities who have been alienated and discriminated in the practice of medicine. Have you not read upon the histories of the medical atrocities that have happened in the United States? It's appalling. That's why we need Physicians who understand the racial discrimination and struggles that other minorities of color have gone through/still go through.

 

[mehc012]

Actually i just tried it. When i ignored OP, all his threads went away too.

If so, that's the first actual useful function of the 'Ignore' button I've ever seen.
Typicaly, posts don't even go away. You just get a message telling you there's something you're missing and the rest of the convo continues around it, and it shows up in quotes.
The ignore function on this forum is useful only as a tool to tell people to shut up and stop whining...it's functionally impotent. Hopefully you're right on this one...would be the first step towards it ever being useful.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Your post is full of ridiculous blanket statements.

1- I'm not against diversity, nor is America against diversity. That poll and myself are saying we do not support race being taken into consideration for admissions. What makes me sad is that you have no reading skills and think you are so enlightened.
2- Your family's political lean has nothing to do with your own political beliefs
3- "Without diversity, there will never be equality" - Yes, so let's start on that road by unequally giving demographics advantages. You do not right a wrong by doing another wrong. You want equality? Treat everyone equally

Do you support 'veteran' status to be considered for admission to med school?

 

[DermViser]

You know you could actually just use the ignore function and this thread really would be removed from your view, right?

Actually no. It only ignores a person and all the person's threads disappear.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Your post is so contradictory. You do not understand diversity AT ALL.

First, let's address undergraduate college admissions. The reason why race is considered at all is because admissions is INHERENTLY NOT EQUAL. Look at the statistics of admissions. It is so skewed towards White and Asian people. If you are claiming that people of Caucasian and Asian ancestry are inherently smarter and/or harder working, then our discussion is done.

Now, regarding medical school admissions, race SHOULD be considered because there are people from historically marginalized communities who have been alienated and discriminated in the practice of medicine. Have you not read upon the histories of the medical atrocities that have happened in the United States? It's appalling. That's why we need Physicians who understand the racial discrimination and struggles that other minorities of color have gone through/still go through.

I'm claiming that white people and asian people do better in standardized tests that are commonly accepted as benchmarks of competitiveness for college while minorities do not.

No need to reply to this anymore! I have been following your posts for months and you will never ever convince me with your reasonings

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Do you support 'veteran' status to be considered for admission to med school?

No ma'am. Or legacies

 

[Aerus]

Yes, so let's start on that road by unequally giving demographics advantages. You do not right a wrong by doing another wrong. You want equality? Treat everyone equally

I'd like to highlight the inherently wrong nature of this statement. By not considering race in undergraduate admissions (and other fields of work), things are NOT equal. According to studies that have been done, White people are much more likely to get job offers post interview than their minority counterparts, despite similar qualifications. Race is a HUGE unequal playing field. If we ignore race, we ignore this unequal playing field.

 

[Aerus]

I'm claiming that white people and asian people do better in standardized tests that are commonly accepted as benchmarks of competitiveness for college while minorities do not.

No need to reply to this anymore! I have been following your posts for months and you will never ever convince me with your reasonings

If we are testing fish and moles on their abilities to climb a tree, then obviously the monkeys will win.

Sorry, if you do not want a reply, then do not reply. That is all.

 

[mehc012]

@Fabio Lanzoni Low SES perspective is certainly a form of diversity which is sorely lacking in the medical community...given that it also contributes to disadvantages in the education system and the app process, how do you propose to address the lack of SES diversity in medicine?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

If we are testing fish and moles on their abilities to climb a tree, then obviously the monkeys will win.

Doesn't mean putting fish on top of a tree and throwing a monkey off solves anything

 

[DermViser]

Anybody who is opposed to diversity is sadly uninformed. I don't care how many people in this country are against diversity. That just makes me more sad about how uninformed the world really is about these issues. I'm not even leftist. I grew up in a Republican family. I'm Asian. If anything, I SHOULD be against this. But anyone who is against this is pushing us backward. Without diversity, there will never be equality.

You're Asian. That's not the diversity that medical schools want.

 

[DermViser]

@Fabio Lanzoni Low SES perspective is certainly a form of diversity which is sorely lacking in the medical community...given that it also contributes to disadvantages in the education system and the app process, how do you propose to address the lack of SES diversity in medicine?

You really don't know? Add a line to the application re: gross income of parents and the applicant.

 

[Aerus]

Doesn't mean putting fish on top of a tree and throwing a monkey off solves anything

Diversity does not throw a monkey off. It simply puts the fish closer to the top, near the monkeys. Look at the statistics. White people and Asian people still occupy most of the spots.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

@Fabio Lanzoni Low SES perspective is certainly a form of diversity which is sorely lacking in the medical community...given that it also contributes to disadvantages in the education system and the app process, how do you propose to address the lack of SES diversity in medicine?

SES for affirmative action is understandable - although I do not support it.

 

[Aerus]

You're Asian. That's not the diversity that medical schools want.

........

Reread my post please LOL.

 

[terp720]

Actually no. It only ignores a person and all the person's threads disappear.

Well it did seem from your posts on OP's threads that you wanted to get rid of all of his threads from your view...
Soo if you press ignore, then the next time you go to pre-allo, his threads won't show up.

If so, that's the first actual useful function of the 'Ignore' button I've ever seen.
Typicaly, posts don't even go away. You just get a message telling you there's something you're missing and the rest of the convo continues around it, and it shows up in quotes.
The ignore function on this forum is useful only as a tool to tell people to shut up and stop whining...it's functionally impotent. Hopefully you're right on this one...would be the first step towards it ever being useful.

No... Posts don't go away. But if you ignore the person who started the thread, then the thread no longer shows up for you. If someone does happen to quote a post you already posted before ignoring the OP, then maybe just exercise some self-control and don't click on it?

Not sure why the concept of ignoring someone and thus all threads they create is so hard

 

[DermViser]

SES for affirmative action is understandable - although I do not support it.

Why not?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Diversity does not throw a monkey off. It simply puts the fish closer to the top, near the monkeys. Look at the statistics. White people and Asian people still occupy most of the spots.

Med schools do not have seats they just magically make appear. It's simple math - if you accept one student, another student does not get accepted. If there are 20,000 seats and 1 seat is taken, that is 1 less seat, regardless of what the majority is.

 

[DermViser]

Well it did seem from your posts on OP's threads that you wanted to get rid of all of his threads from your view...
Soo if you press ignore, then the next time you go to pre-allo, his threads won't show up.



No... Posts don't go away. But if you ignore the person who started the thread, then the thread no longer shows up for you. If someone does happen to quote a post you already posted before ignoring the OP, then maybe just exercise some self-control and don't click on it?

Not sure why the concept of ignoring someone and thus all threads they create is so hard

I'm not talking posts from a specific user. I'm talking about the post/thread itself.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Why not?

This is just my personal opinion, but attending top colleges is not a right. There is no need for affirmative action for the average poor kid if they apply to their state school - and that is plenty good to start moving up the SES ladder. It's not like being poor automatically makes your scores the 10th percentile. I guess I view things in a more black and white manner even though I am low SES myself

 

[Aerus]

Med schools do not have seats they just magically make appear. It's simple math - if you accept one student, another student does not get accepted. If there are 20,000 seats and 1 seat is taken, that is 1 less seat, regardless of what the majority is.

You're acting like all the seats originally should belong to White people.

If one White person does not make it, it's because another White person beat him and took his seat. In a world without discrimination (with ONLY equality), med school seats would be divided equally among all people. The fact that the majority of the seats are still occupied by White and Asian people (despite URM) shows us that the playing field is STILL unequal.

 

[Aerus]

This is just my personal opinion, but attending top colleges is not a right. There is no need for affirmative action for the average poor kid if they apply to their state school - and that is plenty good to start moving up the SES ladder. It's not like being poor automatically makes your scores the 10th percentile. I guess I view things in a more black and white manner even though I am low SES myself

There are tests that show there is a significant correlation between SAT scores and how many pots and pans you have in your kitchen cupboard as well as other ridiculous comparisons. Why is that?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

You're acting like all the seats originally should belong to White people.

If one White person does not make it, it's because another White person beat him and took his seat. In a world without discrimination (with ONLY equality), med school seats would be divided equally among all people. The fact that the majority of the seats are still occupied by White and Asian people (despite URM) shows us that the playing field is STILL unequal.

Nope stop misquoting me. I act like all the seats should belong to the most qualified people (undergrad mostly). I am not against diversity. Stop making these ridiculous assumptions

 

[Aerus]

Nope stop misquoting me. I act like all the seats should belong to the most qualified people (undergrad mostly). I am not against diversity. Stop making these ridiculous assumptions

You are obviously not getting it. This is actually frightening that you are pursuing a health career/currently occupy one if you cannot understand diversity. I never said YOU (specifically you) are against it, but you simply do not understand it at all.

I refer back to my fish/monkey analogy. Is it fair that monkeys are the most qualified in this test?

 

[terp720]

I'm not talking posts from a specific user. I'm talking about the post/thread itself.

And ignoring OP altogether isn't a solution because you want to see all of OP's other threads? Like the one you bumped just to say you want to be able to remove it from your view?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

You are obviously not getting it. This is actually frightening that you are pursuing a health career/currently occupy one if you cannot understand diversity. I never said YOU (specifically you) are against it, but you simply do not understand it at all.

I refer back to my fish/monkey analogy. Is it fair that monkeys are the most qualified in this test?

Diversity: Variety - This is straight from the dictionary. I think I understand this plenty well
If you think this is an unfair test, change the test. Don't penalize those that do well because the test is bad.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

No ma'am. Or legacies

If med school was about stats only, they would ignore ECs, MCAT scores (the way it is now), GPA and even interviews. The only way they can make the admission process more 'fair' is to have everyone takes the same MCAT exam on the same day and use only that MCAT score as a metric for admission...

 

[Aerus]

Diversity: Variety - This is straight from the dictionary. I think I understand this plenty well
If you think this is an unfair test, change the test. Don't penalize those that do well because the test is bad.

OH MY GOD LOL. You still are hung on the thought that all these seats belong to White/Asian people and that every seat taken away is HURTING White and Asian people.

NO. If someone has an advantage over someone else in a game that is SUPPOSED to be fair, then it only makes sense to take away that advantage. This "advantage" is the fact that they occupy the most seats in educational institutions. Race DOES matter in affecting how qualified a person can be in this test.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

If med school was about stats only, they would ignore ECs, MCAT scores (the way it is now), GPA and even interviews. The only way they can make the admission process more 'fair' is to have everyone takes the same MCAT exam on the same day and use only that MCAT score as a metric for admission...

There are certainly things in this process that are not inherently equal, I agree. Doesn't mean I will support affirmative action

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

OH MY GOD LOL. You still are hung on the thought that all these seats belong to White/Asian people and that every seat taken away is HURTING White and Asian people.

NO. If someone has an advantage over someone else in a game that is SUPPOSED to be fair, then it only makes sense to take away that advantage. This "advantage" is the fact that they occupy the most seats in educational institutions. Race DOES matter in affecting how qualified a person can be in this test.

Yes I see your point. I changed my mind

 

[Aerus]

There are certainly things in this process that are not inherently equal, I agree. Doesn't mean I will support affirmative action

I definitely agree that Affirmative Action is FAR from fixing this huge issue. But it is a step in the right direction, if not a tiny step. The best thing we can do is to actually address the inequality in our country, but how do we do that? Nobody would be talking about this if we knew, right?

 

[mehc012]

And ignoring OP altogether isn't a solution because you want to see all of OP's other threads? Like the one you bumped just to say you want to be able to remove it from your view?

Wait, is this still directed at me? I don't recall saying that. I never said that I wanted to block OPs threads.

I just personally hate the Ignore function because it is often self-righteously touted as the easy solution to everyone's problems within a given thread, when it really contributes nothing...you require just as much self-control with it as without it, so it is unhelpful.
Blocking people's threads (something I haven't seen mentioned before, but I tried it and it works, thank you) is a separate issue...THAT seems to be well implemented. However, the post-blocking, the way it is currently implemented, is completely useless.
I wish the posts were blocked the way the threads currently are with this function is all. And I wish people would stop smacking others upside the head with it when it really doesn't work for everyone...and when sometimes, you really just want to reply to the person who is annoying you.

 

[terp720]

Wait, is this still directed at me? I don't recall saying that. I never said that I wanted to block OPs threads.

I just personally hate the Ignore function because it is often self-righteously touted as the easy solution to everyone's problems within a given thread, when it really contributes nothing...you require just as much self-control with it as without it, so it is unhelpful.
Blocking people's threads (something I haven't seen mentioned before, but I tried it and it works, thank you) is a separate issue...THAT seems to be well implemented. However, the post-blocking, the way it is currently implemented, is completely useless.
I wish the posts were blocked the way the threads currently are with this function is all. And I wish people would stop smacking others upside the head with it when it really doesn't work for everyone...and when sometimes, you really just want to reply to the person who is annoying you.

Noo.. I quoted dermviser? Not you

Also, I am totally fine with wanting to reply to the person who is annoying you.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

There are certainly things in this process that are not inherently equal, I agree. Doesn't mean I will support affirmative action

How would you address the applicant that does not work and has time to beef up his ECs as opposed to the applicant who works 40/hrs/week and does not have that much time to have a lot of ECs?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

How would you address the applicant that does not work and has time to beef up his ECs as opposed to the applicant who works 40/hrs/week and does not have that much time to have a lot of ECs?

Accept them. Sorry, I don't like bending rules. But you all can breathe a big sigh of relief because I am not looking to become an admissions person

 

[mehc012]

Noo.. I quoted dermviser? Not you

Huh. Apparently they've updated the Ignore function, because I don't see any posts from Dermviser, nor did I see your quote.

I retract everything I have said thus far. The Ignore function is now wonderful and exactly what I needed. I should have suspected it had been updated, because it most certainly did not block threads before.
YAY!!!!! The Ignore function is now everything I have been asking for for ages! Sure, it causes a bit of confusion now and then, but WHATEVER. This is wonderful. I AM SO SO HAPPY!!!
Now to block all of the people I have found annoying but never Ignored because the function was previously less-than-useful...

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Accept them. Sorry, I don't like bending rules. But you all can breathe a big sigh of relief because I am not looking to become an admissions person

Lol... Already got my spot...
Do you support welfare? If not, why?

 

[terp720]

Huh. Apparently they've updated the Ignore function, because I don't see any posts from Dermviser, nor did I see your quote.

I retract everything I have said thus far. The Ignore function is now wonderful and exactly what I needed. I should have suspected it had been updated, because it most certainly did not block threads before.
YAY!!!!! The Ignore function is now everything I have been asking for for ages! Sure, it causes a bit of confusion now and then, but WHATEVER. This is wonderful. I AM SO SO HAPPY!!!
Now to block all of the people I have found annoying but never Ignored because the function was previously less-than-useful...

Haha yeah that's the thing, if you ignore the person who posted the thread, it aaaallll just kind of goes away. But no, I wasn't directing that at you. Glad you're enjoying the ignore function!

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Lol... Already got my spot...
Do you support welfare? If not, why?

If you can prove you've been applying to jobs or you cannot work for some reason

 

[mehc012]

Haha yeah that's the thing, if you ignore the person who posted the thread, it aaaallll just kind of goes away. But no, I wasn't directing that at you. Glad you're enjoying the ignore function!

No, that's not what I'm saying at ALL.
I ignored Dermviser quite some time ago (sorry Derm)...now his posts aren't showing up at ALL, not even with the "you have chosen to ignore posts from this user" message like they used to.
Furthermore, when you quoted him, I saw only YOUR text, not his quoted text.

The Ignore function is now working much, MUCH differently than it did in the past, because none of these things were true before.
This is cause for celebration!!

 

[terp720]

No, that's not what I'm saying at ALL.
I ignored Dermviser quite some time ago (sorry Derm)...now his posts aren't showing up at ALL, not even with the "you have chosen to ignore posts from this user" message like they used to.
Furthermore, when you quoted him, I saw only YOUR text, not his quoted text.

The Ignore function is now working much, MUCH differently than it did in the past, because none of these things were true before.
This is cause for celebration!!

Oh I see what you mean. yes, this is also true. I guess I never tried the ignore function in the past until about a week ago, so I just thought this was how it always worked!

 

[mehc012]

Oh I see what you mean. yes, this is also true. I guess I never tried the ignore function in the past until about a week ago, so I just thought this was how it always worked!

Haha, nope...it used to be that threads still showed up, and posts would show up as "terp720 posted something, but you said you didn't want to see it, so we're just going to tell you about it so you're curious instead", and then the quotes would show up so you saw the content anyway. Completely unhelpful.
The current form is...wonderful! Dear Mods...props.

 

[Escape_Goat]

People take advantage of it. I don't care if your Asian, African American, White, Hispanic, Pacific Islander etc., but how does the fact your dad is from Venezuela make you a better candidate? my point is shouldn't it be merit based? because clearly skin color and nationality does not make you a better doctor, so why is it so important?

Because despite what the Just World philosophy leads you to believe, we don't live in a meritocracy. Institutionalized barriers to quality education, healthcare, and social mobility are still very prevalent in our society and affect minorities to an infinitely greater degree that someone who was born with a "straight white male" golden ticket. For people who try to take advantage of the URM status, it will more often than not have no effect or a negative effect on their application.