Showing interest!!

[PreMedAdAG]

Hello,

I feel like I'm in a pickle - my number one choice in psychiatry is my own institution - because of this I have told them they are my number one. However, there are also other schools I want to convey my interest in. How should I word it when e-mailing them or contacting them? The time of ranking is coming so close and I'm feeling like my hands are tied.

Some residents say to take a "second" look at the programs I'm really interested in - well I can pick a top 5 and obviously know what my number one is. I feel like a second look wouldn't change my mind all that much. Also - I am entirely broke - I can't possibly afford trips or take the time off of rotations to fly out to 3 or 4 other schools for second looks.

Any thoughts on what to say to my #2, 3, 4, 5??? Also - some schools have said, "please let us know if we are your #1". I can't honestly say that but they may be #2 or #3 - so it's like such a game - how do I respond to that?? - I obviously want them to rank me high - but I"m not going to pretend they are my #1 when they aren't.

Sigh... this is slightly stressful

The thing is I love my #1 - but I also really really really like schools #2-5 -

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[billypilgrim37]

"I am very excited about your program. I could see myself very happy and productive there. I plan on ranking your program highly."

Nothing new under the sun. Someone should publish code for applicant speech. Any PD who wasn't born yesterday knows that a message like that would say you a) like the program, b) aren't ranking it number one, and c) have the social grace to not be a tool, and are still worth ranking.

Do not mislead programs. Telling a program you are going to rank them number one and then not is the pinnacle of sliminess, and I'd be banned if I said all the things I think ought to happen to people who do that.

 

[Chrismander]

"I am very excited about your program. I could see myself very happy and productive there. I plan on ranking your program highly."

Nothing new under the sun. Someone should publish code for applicant speech. Any PD who wasn't born yesterday knows that a message like that would say you a) like the program, b) aren't ranking it number one, and c) have the social grace to not be a tool, and are still worth ranking.

Do not mislead programs. Telling a program you are going to rank them number one and then not is the pinnacle of sliminess, and I'd be banned if I said all the things I think ought to happen to people who do that.

Although... one could make the argument that since some programs seem to do this to applicants all the time, it's basically no harm no foul.

However does it really matter if you tell a program you're going to rank them highly? I mean these are PD's who eval hundreds of candidates a year, not little tween girls. "OHMIGOD! Billypilgrim is going to rank us #1!!!! he's so dreamy!!!" Isn't it just better to be polite to everyone, tell them honestly what you like about their program, and leave your fate to... fate?

 

[billypilgrim37]

Isn't it just better to be polite to everyone, tell them honestly what you like about their program, and leave your fate to... fate?

I believe that's simply what I advocated. There is certainly a particular etiquette that has developed with applicants and programs, and many programs certainly do rank based upon some perceived level of interest.

Applications lie on a sideways S-curve, by which I mean most programs probably don't see a big difference between the applicant they rated #20 and the applicant they rated #40. All things being equal, programs would rather have people that are excited about their programs. Therefore, it is not an irrational behavior to consider applicant interest.

 

[freaker]

One way I've envisioned of including your #2 is to mention that you've been debating between #2 and #1 as your favorite and to ask program #2 what they think helps distinguish themselves from #1.

Let them know you are thoroughly interested. That way you've at least given them the idea that they could be your #1. Put them back in the positions of selling themselves to you while at the same time expressing your interest.

And if I may add to this, who all should we generally email about this? Certainly the program director. What about the Associate Training Director? the Chair?

 

[MDchouette]

Bump!

Any input on this? Especially from those involving in the applicant selection / rank list creation process?

 

[gdbaby]

I just sent out emails (the PD specifically said to the group not to send cards, but emails were fine) to a program I interviewed at this week. I am not sure yet whether I will rank them first or second. I made my email personal, reminding them of things we discussed in the interviews and telling them that I was excited about what their program has to offer--all true.

This program is also located in a place that may be a turn-off to some people, so I expressed my interest in the location as well--also true. I think these programs know that location is a big factor to many applicants (especially those with families) and they want residents who will be happy in all aspects of their lives.

I concluded the email stating that I hoped they found me to be a good fit for their program as well.

 

[atsai3]

This frequently comes up on SDN. What disturbs me most is that you all seem to have blind spots about what is considered gamesmanship and what is not. There was a thread several weeks back debating the morality of PDs saying things like "we will be ranking you very highly". The PD is effectively expressing interest-- similar to what you are trying to do with second looks and other permutations of "I like your program very much".

The only way to effectively game this is if you are willing to lie and tell multiple PDs that you will be ranking their programs #1. And even that that is tenuous because telling that to a PD doesn't really help (or at least i can only speak for the three 'high powered' institutions where I have detailed knowledge of the admissions process). If you're not willing to lie, then just be honest with programs you like ("I liked your program a lot") and be done with it.

-AT.

 

[psychattending]

Echoing what others have said just be honest with the PDs. I know there can only be one #1 on your list and that my program will not be #1 on everyone's list. Being socially appropriate is also a good idea since I would like residents who interact well with people. I would not be in favor of you asking me what differentiates my program from your #1 school. As I don't know all the ins and outs of other programs, it would be inappropriate for me to tell you what is better or different about my program. All I can tell you is what my program offers you.

 

[Sneezing]

I have read too many horror stories on SDN of people getting screwed by the match for being too trustworthy and honest. I even know people who have. I wouldn't fault any applicant for telling every program they are their favorite and #1 program. The same concept still applies to everyone - rank them how you want them.

If a program is daft enough to change their lists because an applicant told them they are #1, then that is just plain silly.

Will I do this? No. Not my style. I applaud any applicant who does wish to play the game though. This is just how the system is set up. If it weren't for programs that had made changes candidates wouldn't feel the need to do it. If there wasn't the issue of DO's and IMG's prematching, people wouldn't feel the need to play the game.

The match is good, but could be better. Why are we having programs offer 2nd visits? Are applicants really that inept at taking good notes the first time around? So now as an applicant we have to deal with the angst of wondering how essential is it that I attend a second look? It should be banned for an applicant or even programs to say any subjective ranking descriptions. Let the algorithm do its job!

 

[Sophie]

I've had a number of programs tell me that if I'm really interested I should come for a 2nd look. Unfortunately, I won't be able to go to any 2nd looks because I'm already missing 3 days of my upcoming rotation for interviews, and 3 days is the max we're allowed to miss. I'm just planning to tell this to any of the programs that explicitly mentioned that I should attend their 2nd looks.

As far as showing interest through emails, I have told my #1 program that they are my #1 and why. I plan to send emails to my 2nd through 5th programs telling them that I really like their programs (and why), that I would be happy there, and that I am ranking them highly. Then I'll just pray, so to speak.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I've had a number of programs tell me that if I'm really interested I should come for a 2nd look. Unfortunately, I won't be able to go to any 2nd looks because I'm already missing 3 days of my upcoming rotation for interviews, and 3 days is the max we're allowed to miss. I'm just planning to tell this to any of the programs that explicitly mentioned that I should attend their 2nd looks.

As far as showing interest through emails, I have told my #1 program that they are my #1 and why. I plan to send emails to my 2nd through 5th programs telling them that I really like their programs (and why), that I would be happy there, and that I am ranking them highly. Then I'll just pray, so to speak.

Wow. This all sounds so, so....rational.
Are you sure you're wierd enough to want to be one of us?

 

[Sophie]

Wow. This all sounds so, so....rational.
Are you sure you're wierd enough to want to be one of us?

I'm weird in my own way. I'm just not a fan of games.

 

[atsai3]

Why are we having programs offer 2nd visits? Are applicants really that inept at taking good notes the first time around? So now as an applicant we have to deal with the angst of wondering how essential is it that I attend a second look? It should be banned for an applicant or even programs to say any subjective ranking descriptions. Let the algorithm do its job!

Programs offer second visits because applicants may find more exposure (i.e., to residents who didn't come to the interview day, rounding with the consult team, etc) helpful. The second visit gives the applicant more time to kick the tires, so to speak, and to find out if she thinks the program would be a good fit for her.

If you don't think a second look would be helpful in your decision making process, then don't arrange for a second look.

-AT.

 

[trophyhusband]

Programs offer second visits because applicants may find more exposure (i.e., to residents who didn't come to the interview day, rounding with the consult team, etc) helpful. The second visit gives the applicant more time to kick the tires, so to speak, and to find out if she thinks the program would be a good fit for her.

If you don't think a second look would be helpful in your decision making process, then don't arrange for a second look.

-AT.

It's also quite helpful if you have a spouse or significant other who wasn't able to go along for the original interview. That's why we're going on some second looks, it gives her a chance to learn more about the program and it gives me a chance to see the area.

Also, things happen during interview day that the applicants and programs can't control that sometimes necessitate a second look. For example, one of the folks from my wife's med school was interviewing at Scott & White when the Fort Hood shootings happened. So the hospital was locked down and they couldn't tour the hospital. If that was one of your top choices you'd probably want to go back for a second look to see the facilities.

It's kind of strange that people are so dismissive of second looks just because they don't see the need for them or don't want to do it themselves.

 

[GmailQueen]

I've actually had multiple programs say that they don't play games, they won't call, and they'll rank us in the order that they want us, regardless of what we say/do (we'll see if this holds up). I've only had one program tell me I should come back for a second look if I'm interested in the program.

I've also arranged 2 second looks, both at programs that I interviewed at early in the season and really liked. Since then, I've been on quite a few other interviews and liked several other programs and think it would be helpful for me to revisit the earlier programs in order to see if I still like them as much now compared to the programs I've seen recently. But they are also programs that I can drive to and stay with a friend, so there is no added expense. Honestly, at this point, if I loved a program that would require a flight or hotel, I definitely would not go back for a second look. I am totally broke.

 

[cricketpsych]

I actually had a question pertaining to this issue. I agree in that its a good idea to email the PD at your #1 program and tell them so. I was also planning on emailing my # 2-4 and telling them i was ranking them highly. My question is, what is the time frame for this? I haven't fully figured out which program is going to be my #1 spot, and I don't certainly want to lie to a PD, but I'm feeling a lot of pressure to do it soon since ROLs have opened already. Anyone have any knowledge on when is getting a little late to inform a PD that their #1?

 

[gdbaby]

From what I understand, their ROLs are due the same time as ours and that their lists are flexible until that point. I would say you have until Feb 24 at 9pm EST.

 

[cleareyedguy]

Lying is wrong--why start out your career by telling 3 PD's that you're ranking them #1?

Polite is nice--if a PD calls or emails, why not write back and say thanks, had an interesting time and succintly but specifically explain why that is so.

Creating more work for the PD is unwise--while a second look is fine (though it is extra work), why ask them to prove to you why they're right for you AFTER YOU'VE ALREADY SPENT THE DAY THERE. Weren't you paying attention the first time around?

PD's do not want to "screw" applicants. Like you, they want a good match and don't know who they're going to get. If they, on average, go to 30 on their list to get 10 interns, what should they say to person 1-50? One option is to tell them exactly where they stand (I know of one program that does this). They can tell 1-50 that they'd be happy to have them, though that will leave 31-50 feeling misguided if the program really goes to 30. They can tell 1-10 that they are guaranteed a spot, 11-30 that they are likely to match, and 31-50 that they'd be happy to have them, but the decline in interest in #11-40 could lead applicants 11-40 feeling unloved, and that could lead the program to dropping further than they would if they'd expressed more affection for #11-40. Knowing that they've historically always gone through at least20, the PD could fudge a bit and tell #1-20 that they have been ranked to match, which is sort-of true, but--if the stars align and they only go through 18, then 19 and 20 will feel screwed by the PD's effort to get the best possible class. And if the PD tries to stay above the fray and say nothing, anxious applicants are likely to think that the program doesn't like them and may drop that particular program lower on the list. And it's all complicated by the fact that much of this communication occurs while interviews are still going on.

By the way, PD's do want enthusiasm, and they like to fill off the top of their roster. If a PD emails you, and you don't respond, it is reasonable for the PD to assume that you are rude, disorganized, and/or uninterested, and that does not help your application. A simple, honest return email never hurts.

 

[GmailQueen]

If a PD calls you and leaves a message, is it ok to email a response rather than calling back? I'm kind of awful on the phone (my friends tell me I always sound miserable and unenthusiastic) so I'd prefer not to give them the idea that I don't want to talk to them or am uninterested in the program when in reality I'm just not a phone person.

 

[psyched7]

I actually had a question pertaining to this issue. I agree in that its a good idea to email the PD at your #1 program and tell them so. I was also planning on emailing my # 2-4 and telling them i was ranking them highly. My question is, what is the time frame for this? I haven't fully figured out which program is going to be my #1 spot, and I don't certainly want to lie to a PD, but I'm feeling a lot of pressure to do it soon since ROLs have opened already. Anyone have any knowledge on when is getting a little late to inform a PD that their #1?

I second this question. I realize ROL are open until late February but I doubt programs wait until the last minute to construct their lists. But I'm still trying to decide on my top choice (and interviewing, for that matter). What's a reasonable deadline for emailing your #1?

 

[yellow_taco_cat]

I second this question. I realize ROL are open until late February but I doubt programs wait until the last minute to construct their lists. But I'm still trying to decide on my top choice (and interviewing, for that matter). What's a reasonable deadline for emailing your #1?

an answer to this question would be much appreciated!

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

One way I've envisioned of including your #2 is to mention that you've been debating between #2 and #1 as your favorite and to ask program #2 what they think helps distinguish themselves from #1.

Never underestimate the ego of an academic:

"Geez, they think that so and so program is on par with us? Clearly this applicant doesn't know anything. If they think that so and so program is that good, they should go there."

I'm just messing with you, the above would be fine.