Simulation Labs!!!

[fourpointohoh]

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Hi everyone...

I thought I would start a thread that talks about simulation labs. Which schools have them? Which ones are the nicest?

I know for a fact that these schools have them:

NYU
BU
Nova
Temple

Who wants to add???


Thanks!

 

[AcidETCH]

Pitt has a brand new sim-clinic...state of the art, 3Million dollars worth. Just beautiful!

Penn has the virtual reality DentSim units...don't know how many they have though, maybe Desidentist can comment on this. I would really like to get my hands on these units. 🙂

 

[mofo]

NYU
BU
Nova
Temple
University of the Pacific
University of Washington

 

[tinker bell]

Case Western Reserve University

The SIM lab is state of the art, so spacious with huge student lockers. The DENTSIM lab is great as well.
Both are brandnew, just grandopening at the end of October 02.
The lightings in those labs look more like an art studio or something, it's hard to believe that's a lab.
Case also has music in their SIM lab. and 7 or 8 specialist instructors are always in the lab. (Not just any general dentist, some of the best specialists are teaching in the lab)
I'm so impressed with Case, now it makes turning down Case so hard for me. If I ever have to do so.

 

[Green Fox]

OHSU just opened their brand new, multi-million dollar Freshman sim lab and soph sim lab this year. Each station is equipt with multi-media equiptment, handpiece stations, etc. (everything you could possibly need) Every student has their own station that locks up. It is very nice!

 

[Comet208]

Marquette University just built a SIM lab too... it looked very nice!

 

[jam21]

Univ of florida. they spent several million dollars....

 

[fourpointohoh]

Tufts has a really nice one too....

Out of all of the sim labs that you guys have seen, which one do you think was the nicest, and why.

I think Nova and TUfts were the nicest, they were spacious and clean, and very very very professional-looking.

Also, do you guys know which schools let their students send their clinic stuff (dentures, crowns, etc) to labs? I know that at BU you have to make everything yourself, and at Nova they only make you do the first one or two and then you send everything out after that. I think sending the stuff out is best, then you have more time to spend on perfecting the other skills.

Thanks!

 

[JonR]

UConn has some nice gleaming new sim labs too...ah, A-DEC equipment, how I love thee!! Working on the Mr. Head typodont is always fun. We also have x-ray rooms right across the room from the chairs.

Oh, and as far as lab stuff. You'll find that most schools on the uppity-up do all or nearly all send out work because aside from knowing what to look for in good lab work, you'll never have to deal with it again in your practice. It gives you MUCH more time to get through your clinical competencies/requirements.

 

[noodle]

So what you are saying is that as long as you can drive a car you don't need to know how to put up the hood and know how the engine works. Someone else will change the oil and put the gas in the tank and rotate the tires. If you get into trouble just call AAA road service. I bet Labs love Dentists who don't know anything about how a crown is fabricated or a Denture is processed or how to burnish a margin or stain and glaze the proper shade on a crown. Or how to place anatomy in a gold crown after adjusting the occlusion. Right, who needs to do little things like lab work! Wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way, when your air compressor breaks down in the office, and you need to run your handpiece, who is going to fix it so you can work on patients? Better start thinking about the important things in dentistry. As the head of a health care team you need to know how everything works better than the people you work with and contract to do the work. Better learn how to wax, cast, invest, polish, finish, bake etc. etc.

 

[tinker bell]

Dr. Kilgore at BU told me that after the first few diy, students can send their lab work out. He even told me about really good contract lab in japan that does exquisite works and students have sent things there quite often. Same for Case, Pitt, and UOP.

Temple is a big DIY from start to finish.

T

 

[JonR]

You make it sound like schools that don't do their own lab work don't even teach you anything about it, as if they leave it to the imagination. Not quite....

As far as anatomy goes, if you know your morphology, you don't have to actually make the crown to tell if it is correct in dimensions. As far as occlusion goes, it is easy to check and no school leaves you hanging as far as how to adjust occlusion where it is adjustable. As far as opacity/translucence/color, you don't have to make 100 Empress II's before you know what #9 should look like. Shade matching too, is not that difficult at all. Really, the important thing is being able to effectively communicate to your lab how the tooth should look and then to be able to point out errors in how those instructions were carried out. Dental school teaches you how each technique works, and each school DOES go through the sequence of working up models, etc., but some schools make you go through needless repetition of tasks that benefit you in no way, though the understanding of how they work is essential. In today's dental world, NO dentist does their own lab work because it just isn't cost effective in any way, therefore it doesn't make sense to train to be a lab tech.

It IS like working on cars. I have worked on them before and know how to perform all essential maintenance tasks as well as how to diagnose most serious problems with the car...however that does not mean that I need to operate the 4-wheel alignment machine myself, that I can leave to the mechanic, who specializes in that detail area. If you know what castor, camber, toe-in and out are yourself and you know what the mechanic does to achieve the results you want in these various settings, then you don't have to actually do the work yourself, but only how to diagnose what the problem is (if any) when you get it back from the shop.

Dentistry is all about a balance of doing the detail work yourself where it is needed and knowing when to delegate those details out. Knowing how the procedure is done and going through the process is one thing; training as if you would do it yourself just doesn't translate to real life.

But we digress...I don't want to totally hijack this thread.

 

[noodle]

Remember we are talking about Dental Students and getting an education in how to produce a restoration from sitting the patient in the chair to making a quality restoration the is esthetic and functions! The new dental brain needs to be hard wired to understand how this works. The conductor in an orchestra knows everything about music and how did he or she learn this? By doing LAB WORK. 😍

 

[Qoo]

adding to the list:

Columbia
Baylor



~Qoo

 

[fourpointohoh]

Don't believe everything that the counselors tell you. I know for a fact that BU students don't send out their labwork.

As for myself, I do not want to spend more than half of my time fabricating dental appliances for patients when I know that in practice I will be sending it out. Economically speaking, it is a lot cheaper to send the stuff out since your time is worth more than the lab technicians (if we're talking dollars and sense here).

I'm sorry, but whatever the schools that still make their students do this tell you, don't believe it. Doing the job of the technicians the ENTIRE length of your dental schooling will not make you a better dentist.

 

[noodle]

I understand that there is more than Lab Work! In the Real World your time is relative. Like Einstein use to say. If your work in a capitation office which is HMO driven the overhead will kill you. The more lab bills and overhead may hurt the ecomonics of the practice. The Quality offices that I have seen have lab techs. on sight! Many Orthodontists make their own Hawley retainers and positioners. When you are doing full mouth reconstruction you better know every phase of the procedure form die work to final polish. Can you ditch your own die so the tech. knows where the finish line is for the casting? Without an understanding of the tech end how do you design percision attachments and multiunit bridgework. What investment material to use. Do you want hydroscopic expansion on a cast post or only on a cast crown? In a general practice you are married to your lab tech so you better know as much as the individual you are paying to fabricate the restoration.

 

[JonR]

The only offices with lab techs on site are multiple-doctor offices with the money to employ such a person. Why do they employ a lab tech on site? Because they can afford it and can get very fast turn around times on lab work. That doesn't have one thing to do with being trained in school; it is a question of money. Most solo dentists don't have the production level necessary to keep a lab tech busy enough to have them all to themselves.

The best dentist will be able to instantly separate bad lab work from good (which is tought in EVERY school though lab courses, no matter how many castings you do) and will be able to effectively communicate to the tech. what they want done differently. Being able to work porcelain as well as your tech. won't make you a better dentist!!

I agree that it is very important to understand how lab work is done in order to understand what techs are actually doing in the lab. Further than that, it will just be for your knowledge...and in dental school, just like in a real practice, you are much better off spending time doing things that you will be doing for the rest of your life.

20 years ago, it was important to know how to do your lab work because it was still being done by the DENTIST in-office sometimes. These days doing DIY in-office lab work is a waste of time and that is why schools have been moving away from it so that they are preparing students more for the real world, where you do send out your work but you are still responsible for the function and esthetics of it just as if you had made it yourself.

 

[noodle]

My friend, Nothing has changed in the last twenty years. In fact the practitioners that have the best esthetic eye for morphology and color are the ones doing numerous in office bondings on anterior teeth have taken the lab procedures to the oral cavity. Try doing six anterior bondings with resin and shaping the teeth to a beautiful harmonious smile that is in function. The ability to learn how to shape a tooth in the mouth with a handpiece with a flame shape diamond comes directly from doing it in the lab. Try closing a diastema on #8 and #9 with resin or veneers. Again the lab work and tactile sense developed in school is foundation that you need. This attitude of money and relationships with dentist is how denturism started in Canada. Did you know that in Canada you can by pass the Dentist and go directly to the Lab Tech!!!! And did you know that Dental Hygienist want to practice in their own office without the supervision of a dentist? The real world as you call it wants ethical Dentists that are less concerned with money and care about their patients and auxillary staff. You have to learn to be a Dentist before you are a Dentist. Do the LAB WORK!!!!!! It will make you a better Dentist in the REAL WORLD!!!! 🙄

 

[JonR]

Once again, you miss my point completely. I am not saying that lab work is not necessary. I am not saying that you should ignore it as if you don't have to know it. You can't possibly do that anyway, as you have to learn how it works no matter where you go. It is both a very bold and very wrong statement that nothing has changed in 20 years.

Are you really saying that the only ones that can do 6 anterior composites and achieve perfect esthetics and function are dentists who did all of their own lab work during school? That is just nonsensical. If you get out of school and can't tell esthetic and functional from non-esthetic and non-functional...or better yet, if you can't place those composites and get esthetics and functionality, it isn't because you didn't do your lab work, it is because you didn't attend class.

Then you somehow equate all of this to money, as if not doing all of your own lab work in school makes you less concerned with ethics and the patient's well-being or that not doing all of your lab work during school means you won't be able to judge between A1 and A2. I would argue that you will actually be a better practitioner if you send out during school, as you will have much more time to actually DO restorations and crown preps instead of excessive lab work. You will have more hours of clinical exposure under your belt, which you will learn supersedes all other things as far as how "good" you will be. All the lab work in the world won't make you one second faster on a Class II.

I'm not really sure where you are going with all of this. Both profitability and ethics can indeed be present at the same time, believe it or not. Whether you go to a school where you do all of your lab work or only enough to know how to make each piece (and judge the work the ones who will actually DO your lab work) and then send the rest out will not make you a better judge of esthetics or functionality. It will only change the focus of your studies during your clinical years and will affect how many hours of clinical training you have.

If I really want to have the patient's best interest in mind, I for one would much rather do 5 more molar endo procedures, a few more crown preps, and place some implants on real people than sit in the lab repeating a procedure I understand, have already done, know how to judge, and will not do again after I leave school. One of the above things will make me a better clinician, and the other will make me a better lab tech.

Oh, and so you know, in many states, it is already fully legal for hygienists to practice without a supervising dentist.

 

[rocknightmare]

does anybody know when vcu's sim lab will go live?

 

[45540]

Hi everyone...

I thought I would start a thread that talks about simulation labs. Which schools have them? Which ones are the nicest?

UT-Memphis has 45 of the new Dentsim products, I think they're worthless but it was pretty cool to start using it during orientation. Now the Kavo labs are a lot more realistic it seems.

 

[jdcinza13]

Arizona has a 54 seat sim lab. It is awesome and state of the art as well.

 

[ediddly]

does anybody know when vcu's sim lab will go live?

They told us it would go live most likely in two years. They explained that they're slowly altering the cirriculum and phasing it in so that the sim lab can be of better use.

 

[scifijock]

I am wondering if it is worth choosing a school based on their sim labs. One school I got into has a DentSim that has a camera and records where you drilled and after the prep it offers an error analysis on the computer. Some other schools I got into have mannequin heads to work on, which they call sim labs. Do any of you have experience with the DentSim?

 

[joonkimdds]

Don't forget about MWU AZ!!!!

 

[UCLAzy]

this thread began when i was 12...

 

[SuperTank]

this thread began when i was 12...

Ha! I didn't catch that until you said something. That's really funny. MWU wasn't even in the planning stages when this thread was started!

 

[ah1989]

this thread began when i was 12...

HAHA I totally didn't realize until I got to your post while reading... a little outdated?