Any advice? My once cozy family is heading down this route. My husband and I are still great friends and he still fully supports my endeavors. I'll be applying to med schools next year (2013), but with the perspective of either being a single parent or never seeing my preschooler... I'm feeling weighted down and more scared than ever. Anyone else take this journey as a single or freshly divorced? Advice ( from every perspective ranging from living situations, $, child care, etc)
Single parent or freshly divorced?
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I went through as a wife and mother of two. My husband worked nights. So basically I have no idea of what it's like as a single parent, but I do have an idea as a parent.
The first two years of school you are basically days and many schools have taped, videostreamed, or audio recordings with ppts online. Some students don't go to school at all and choose to just stay home and read. Be sure you look into schools you apply to however, as some have attendance policies. You have summers and weekends off. After second year you have boards in the summer, which will chew up a bit of your time, but after that you have off until rotations start.
Third and fourth year will be more challenging, but your child will be older too. You will have some nights, some very long hours, etc. But you also generally have holidays off. You will need significant help here with your child.
Depending on what specialty you choose to pursue, you may or may not have a whole lot of time in residency. Certainly no matter what, some rotations will be time intensive - 80 hours a week or so. Some will be lighter, around 50-60 hours. But you will have studying in there besides those hours as well. You can NOT count on nights, weekends, or holidays off. Ever. And you will never have a summer off again ever.
It's tough as a single parent. You will need good support structure and help with your child. But as a mother of children myself going through school, medical school, and residency, you will see them. Perhaps not as often as you would like, but if you ask my kids they are very proud of their mother. They realize hard work pays off. And we have a wonderful relationship (yes, we even made it through the horrible 12-14 years with my daughter. Fortunately my son is coming out of those years now).
Is it worth it? Only you can say.
The first two years of school you are basically days and many schools have taped, videostreamed, or audio recordings with ppts online. Some students don't go to school at all and choose to just stay home and read. Be sure you look into schools you apply to however, as some have attendance policies. You have summers and weekends off. After second year you have boards in the summer, which will chew up a bit of your time, but after that you have off until rotations start.
Third and fourth year will be more challenging, but your child will be older too. You will have some nights, some very long hours, etc. But you also generally have holidays off. You will need significant help here with your child.
Depending on what specialty you choose to pursue, you may or may not have a whole lot of time in residency. Certainly no matter what, some rotations will be time intensive - 80 hours a week or so. Some will be lighter, around 50-60 hours. But you will have studying in there besides those hours as well. You can NOT count on nights, weekends, or holidays off. Ever. And you will never have a summer off again ever.
It's tough as a single parent. You will need good support structure and help with your child. But as a mother of children myself going through school, medical school, and residency, you will see them. Perhaps not as often as you would like, but if you ask my kids they are very proud of their mother. They realize hard work pays off. And we have a wonderful relationship (yes, we even made it through the horrible 12-14 years with my daughter. Fortunately my son is coming out of those years now).
Is it worth it? Only you can say.
Pedagogically to be that mature is not a good thing for kids, its against nature, but they have to adapt/adopt (I dont mean personally you and your kids ShyRem). This is a very important factor to consider before getting in that much a demanding path. As long as its not vitally important to have this education, the first priority belongs to the person we brought to the wold.
HipChick instead of medicine, which drains your energy and time (if you want to be really a quality MD), how about creating a more fair balance with an education which is not that demanding, like for instance Assistant Physician? Or something else both you will feel satisfied with and wont have to compromise on your kids needs.. In long term, you may feel better by all regards.
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Grow up and come back you have raised a family.
Nowhere in 'Nature' as you reference will you see offspring that are as coddled and protected as humans. You have to balance, trust me I know that better that anyone (look at my post last month in non-trad titled goodbye before you challenge me on that one).
However, having mature and well-centered children is not someone to be afraid of; I'd be 10x more worried about raising the lazy, entitled, immature and socially ignorant teens & 20-somethings I see every day.
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When I was walking across Tanzania and passing through Maasai territory, I used to encounter four year old children tending goat herds solo in the middle of the bush, a days journey from the nearest village. They were equipped with a little stick and a cute red blanket, and nothing else, except occasionally one might have sandals too. In their villages I learned that they had been parenting here like this for 100,000 years or so.
What's against nature again?
What's against nature again?
Human has a very strong adaptation ability. This world saw Auschwitz Jews, they could somehow survive and someday laughed again, but this adaptation with a great probabiity took a lot from their soul. Regarding pedagogues, to adapt to a heavily working mother is demanding a strong adaptation in children. They need to be more mature than they naturally (with "nature" I mean this) should be in that age. The younger they live this, the more heavily they pay for. But because we dont have physical souls to observe what eventually we turn to, its in general ignored by the parents/society those early life problems. They are not life threatening of course, but getting the quality of life lower in taste.
Human learns by modelling and love is a concept to learn as well. If you leave the heavier part of daily chores of your baby, s/he will learn the concept "love" as "sharing good times and leaving the hard/long/boring stuff (cleaning the poop, taking care all day long, etc) to others." But if you yourself directly clean the poopy ass of your baby, and take care of him/her all day long, s/he will develop the concept "love" as "sharing all aspects of life."
They dont learn only by your saying, they learn by seeing things in you. If you are busy with other stuff instead of them more, whom will they observe/share to develop themselves?
It sounds like lecturing, I know, sorry, but I have a reaction about this subject. I dont mean to be bothersome with my tone, but I know that if you dont clsoe your ears, actually all of us know intuitively that, thats true.. and sad.
Human learns by modelling and love is a concept to learn as well. If you leave the heavier part of daily chores of your baby, s/he will learn the concept "love" as "sharing good times and leaving the hard/long/boring stuff (cleaning the poop, taking care all day long, etc) to others." But if you yourself directly clean the poopy ass of your baby, and take care of him/her all day long, s/he will develop the concept "love" as "sharing all aspects of life."
They dont learn only by your saying, they learn by seeing things in you. If you are busy with other stuff instead of them more, whom will they observe/share to develop themselves?
It sounds like lecturing, I know, sorry, but I have a reaction about this subject. I dont mean to be bothersome with my tone, but I know that if you dont clsoe your ears, actually all of us know intuitively that, thats true.. and sad.
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You have a very strong reaction, one that clearly demonstrates you have an issue with working mothers that needs resolved. Which as NOTHING to do with HipChick's issues.
However, it is highly offensive to compare the endurance of Jews to having a working mother. I'll let my kids know their family that died in Holland during WWII was just preparing them for the day their mother chose to work.
I would strongly suggest from your comments that you feel that mothers belong barefoot in the kitchen and have no place outside the home. I'd suggest you go deal with those issues before counseling people based upon your personal bias.
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Hipchick, I think I would read over ShyRem's post and then you have to decide what kind of support you will have if you are not married.
Her description is very close to what I have gotten from others as I prepared to do this with a family.
Do you have family or friends that will be in a position to help? Do you expect your possible-ex to be active in the kid(s) lives? How old are they now, and how old would they be at key points (rotations, intern, rest of residency)?
Don't feel like you have to give up on medicine, but take a look at your support structures as you will need help.
That said, ultimately only you can make this decision but I wish you the best in your endeavors.
Her description is very close to what I have gotten from others as I prepared to do this with a family.
Do you have family or friends that will be in a position to help? Do you expect your possible-ex to be active in the kid(s) lives? How old are they now, and how old would they be at key points (rotations, intern, rest of residency)?
Don't feel like you have to give up on medicine, but take a look at your support structures as you will need help.
That said, ultimately only you can make this decision but I wish you the best in your endeavors.
I dont compare those two. It was an example about the adaptation ability of human, it has nothing to do with working mothers.
Nope, definitetly not. If that would be the case, would I suggest a "less demanding" education? I suggest just a more fairly distributed resource management. If you read my first post once again, you can clearly see that, I was very clear in my expression.
Sigh... That's for everyone taking time to respond. I've been wondering how to respond so I'll stick to the points.
I've sought other avenues that are less education, however in health care, and every corner brings me back to becoming a physician. However PA is not out of the picture.
My husband is insanely supportive. To the point that he's willing to assume primary role if needed and move closer to which ever med school if I get accepted. All of our family is further away, however I do have many former students in various locations surrounding schools that would be of assistance.
My daughter just turned five, so thats 7 when I start school, 11 at the start of residency and 14 when I hopefully graduate.
I've sought other avenues that are less education, however in health care, and every corner brings me back to becoming a physician. However PA is not out of the picture.
My husband is insanely supportive. To the point that he's willing to assume primary role if needed and move closer to which ever med school if I get accepted. All of our family is further away, however I do have many former students in various locations surrounding schools that would be of assistance.
My daughter just turned five, so thats 7 when I start school, 11 at the start of residency and 14 when I hopefully graduate.
Sounds like you have a good support system. I'd definitely make sure that you have at least two independent and extremely reliable sources of childcare other than your ex-husband whereever you go. That's what my husband says - he's been doing the single parent thing during the weeks while I have been attending med school three hours away.
I'd definitely have a low threshold to postpone for a year. You need to work out the kinks of a working relationship post-divorce. Many married spouses balk in the end at actually moving for school, so it wouldn't be surprising if your ex's outlook changes as time goes on - what if he's in a new relationship, gets a great new job etc. etc.
Good luck with your decision - your daughter will gain things and lose things from you taking this path. Certainly my three children have.
I'd definitely have a low threshold to postpone for a year. You need to work out the kinks of a working relationship post-divorce. Many married spouses balk in the end at actually moving for school, so it wouldn't be surprising if your ex's outlook changes as time goes on - what if he's in a new relationship, gets a great new job etc. etc.
Good luck with your decision - your daughter will gain things and lose things from you taking this path. Certainly my three children have.
Oh, thats great.. when I saw "preschooler" I thought you had a very little kid, but after 6 its way easier for her since she will get more independent and have her own school life. You will be both schoolers then 
It's sad I asked if she would be disappointed in me if I didn't got to "doctor school". My little smart ass kid said "yes, but you tell me I can do whatever I put my brain to, you can too mama!" tears galore
I asked if she would be disappointed in me if I didn't got to "doctor school". My little smart ass kid said "yes, but you tell me I can do whatever I put my brain to, you can too mama!" tears galore
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I am confused, you say your husband is very supportive, etc, but that you'll be newly divorced in two years when you start school? If you are certain there's no fixing your marriage, that's your call, I am just not sure if that is the case? Assuming you will be divorced, I would say you should wait to start until you have a developed routine living apart from the ex, but I can tell you, my mother raised three kids while working full-time and going to school. My brother is the director of engineering for a large military contractor, I'm going to med school, and my sister travels the world as a 'free spirit' but that is what she wants. My parents divorced when I was 9 months old, and yes, my dad was very involved with our lives.
It's sad
She's right, you should do it, but I agree, you need a plan in place
Quick update:
Papers were filed and should be complete in september. I moved out to an apartment about 10 mintures from the ex and my daughter. and before you start, yet my ex is the primary care-giver. It is easier for all of us because there isnt a huge difference in her schedule this way. Ex and i are doing well, I am struggling more than he since most of this is my fault, but I'll not let his see or know that.
so In the middle of last semester I found out he wanted a divorce this semester signed the paper, and then on thursday found out my entire program was canned! So now I have no job... many when the poop flows it flows like lifes go c.Diff!
The ex said the he just cant move out of state if i go to med school there, but can shift stuff around the state. He just got a raise and promotion. There are six schools in state and then a few just outside... I'm just scared.
Papers were filed and should be complete in september. I moved out to an apartment about 10 mintures from the ex and my daughter. and before you start, yet my ex is the primary care-giver. It is easier for all of us because there isnt a huge difference in her schedule this way. Ex and i are doing well, I am struggling more than he since most of this is my fault, but I'll not let his see or know that.
so In the middle of last semester I found out he wanted a divorce this semester signed the paper, and then on thursday found out my entire program was canned! So now I have no job... many when the poop flows it flows like lifes go c.Diff!
The ex said the he just cant move out of state if i go to med school there, but can shift stuff around the state. He just got a raise and promotion. There are six schools in state and then a few just outside... I'm just scared.
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I'm going to disagree with you on a couple of of points based on what I've observed/experienced with my girlfriend's schedule. She's taking Step 1 next week and we've lived together for her M1 and M2. She certainly didn't have weekends off (maybe a few, but not many) in the traditional sense. She still studied 6-8 hours on weekends. More if it was an exam week. Now I don't know if she needed to study on weekends because she was struggling with the material, but she was never near failing and never had to think about having to do summer remediation. She was always right around the top 25 percentile in her class.
I think her last exam of M2 was in the third week of May, and they start rotations on July 6 (why Friday? I don't know). So her school does give them some time off after step 1 (about a week if you consider the traditional 6 week board prep period), but one of her friends goes to the med school down the street and they have about 5.5 weeks in between finishing M2 and starting M3 rotations. So unless those students are only devoting 3-4 weeks to board prep, they have no time off.
As far as rotations go, my girlfriend just recently got the schedule for her first rotation and she is only working 2 weekends and 2 overnight shifts for the 4 week duration. I don't know how busy M3s are when it comes to studying for shelfs, but I guess that depends on which rotation they're on.
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Summers and weekends off means you don't have classes and are not required to be at or in the school.
You can't count on weekends off during rotations. I did plenty where I worked six days a week or was on call Q4.
You can disagree all you want. I was fairly clear that every school and every person works a little differently.
Btw, five weeks off during which you are expected to take your step is NOT free time. Studying for boards is time intensive.
I realize you wrote this from the perspective of the boyfriend watching your girlfriend go through medical school.... I wrote it as a parent and actual medical student going through medical school. Obviously your viewpoint and mine will differ because you are not standing where I was.
You can't count on weekends off during rotations. I did plenty where I worked six days a week or was on call Q4.
You can disagree all you want. I was fairly clear that every school and every person works a little differently.
Btw, five weeks off during which you are expected to take your step is NOT free time. Studying for boards is time intensive.
I realize you wrote this from the perspective of the boyfriend watching your girlfriend go through medical school.... I wrote it as a parent and actual medical student going through medical school. Obviously your viewpoint and mine will differ because you are not standing where I was.
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I wasn't trying to be argumentative. I just wanted to offer a different perspective.
I also didn't say that the time off to study for step 1 was free time. I said that some schools only give you 5 weeks between M2 and M3 and, unless you are only doing board prep for 3-4 weeks, you don't have any time off.
And yes, I realize our perspectives are different, but I wasn't speaking about feelings or personal struggles; I was simply giving out time constraints.
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Do you have any kids? I argue that:
1) Children nowadays are GENERALLY less mature than they were a generation ago. Believe it or not, it is actually more loving as a parent to start teaching them responsibility at a young age, instead of coddling them and then throwing them out into the world where irresponsible behavior isn't tolerated.
2) Children need structure and discipline in their lives. Teaching them responsibility by doing chores actually contributes more to their emotional well-being than being there to wipe their ass constantly such that when they grow up they are incapable of caring for themselves.
Just sayin'.
I'd even go so far as to say that a large majority of parents today are utterly failing their children by not teaching them responsibility. I agree it can go too far the other way and some parents start treating their children like indentured servants, but it's definitely not a bad thing to teach them how to start being adults long before their 18th birthdays.
I can relate hipchick! I'm 32 yo with 7yo daughter and another due in August. Went through spring semester working full time (teacher), going through the emotions of a divorce, pregnant (yes with his child), working on prerequisites, applying for pharmacy school, and keeping things normal for my 7yo! Whew!
I was accepted, but had to ask for a deferral because of the baby's due date. The Ex is worthless for me during this pregnancy, and visits his daughter once a week, despit working less than 5 mi. from the house. Luckily I have my parents who are incredibly supportive. After I have this baby we will be moving to my parents home in another city to make it easier for everyone that matters, except the ex!
Sometimes you just gotta press forward and continue to believe everything will work out. Things have not been easy, but things are falling in place slowly. It will all come together for you too!
I was accepted, but had to ask for a deferral because of the baby's due date. The Ex is worthless for me during this pregnancy, and visits his daughter once a week, despit working less than 5 mi. from the house. Luckily I have my parents who are incredibly supportive. After I have this baby we will be moving to my parents home in another city to make it easier for everyone that matters, except the ex!
Sometimes you just gotta press forward and continue to believe everything will work out. Things have not been easy, but things are falling in place slowly. It will all come together for you too!
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