Siri is against abortion... are you?

Started by CodeBlu
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I've heard a few anti's say abortion is fine if you've been raped. Which brings the question, well if that's fine,, must be fine other times.

It's a cop-out. There's no rational basis for aborting what you declare to be a fully human, ensouled fetus, simply because the father was a rapist. Execute the father, maybe, but why the "unborn child"? Because the mother was not "assuming risk", implying that fetal humanity is directly proportional to the amount of maternal risk involved in the fetus's creation? Are we talking about human beings or investment portfolios? (Let's not forget the circumstances of the rape, like if she was Dressed That Way, and whether the rape was "forcible" enough...)

I've never heard a satisfactory reconciliation of the rape exception and the overall anti-choice stance. I appreciate it on the merits, because forcing a woman to bear her rapist's child is self-evidently ghastly and these people obviously understand that, but it's special pleading and I have more respect for the hardline "sorry for the rape, enjoy your miracle" stance, even though I find it abhorrent.
 
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It's a cop-out. There's no rational basis for aborting what you declare to be a fully human, ensouled fetus, simply because the father was a rapist.
who's saying it's a fully human ? who says it has a soul? prove that a soul exists? this thread is all about feeling/opinions/.dogma and some science, so I'm not asking for anything extraordinary..

I Execute the father, maybe, but why the "unborn child"?
you just tried to make that point, it's not a child, but I'm open to learning that it is, so feel free to enlighten me


IBecause the mother was not "assuming risk", implying that fetal humanity is directly proportional to the amount of maternal risk involved in the fetus's creation? Are we talking about human beings or investment portfolios?.
you lost me here

I've never heard a satisfactory reconciliation of the rape exception and the overall anti-choice stance. I appreciate it on the merits, because forcing a woman to bear her rapist's child is self-evidently ghastly and these people obviously understand that, but it's special pleading and I have more respect for the hardline "sorry for the rape, enjoy your miracle" stance, even though I find it abhorrent.
agreed
 
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Lol, Muphry's Law strikes. But I wasn't referring to minute gramatical, spelling or typographical errors. The overall structure of your statements had been poor, making your posts very difficult to make sense of.
I would change, but I get am satisfied with the feedback from my post, I see no reason to do more than roll my head along my keyboard😴
 
It's a cop-out. There's no rational basis for aborting what you declare to be a fully human, ensouled fetus, simply because the father was a rapist. Execute the father, maybe, but why the "unborn child"? Because the mother was not "assuming risk", implying that fetal humanity is directly proportional to the amount of maternal risk involved in the fetus's creation? Are we talking about human beings or investment portfolios? (Let's not forget the circumstances of the rape, like if she was Dressed That Way, and whether the rape was "forcible" enough...)

I've never heard a satisfactory reconciliation of the rape exception and the overall anti-choice stance. I appreciate it on the merits, because forcing a woman to bear her rapist's child is self-evidently ghastly and these people obviously understand that, but it's special pleading and I have more respect for the hardline "sorry for the rape, enjoy your miracle" stance, even though I find it abhorrent.
I completely agree. If you believe that a fetus is fully a person (thus abortion is impermissible) than it doesn't matter if it's a product of rape, it's a person and that would still be murder. While from a practical standpoint I'm glad that even those that oppose abortion would mostly make such an exception, from a logical standpoint, it is logically inconsistent to make such as an exception. This is something I tried to engage Nick in earlier, but he's clearly having no part in it.

I would change, but I get am satisfied with the feedback from my post, I see no reason to do more than roll my head along my keyboard😴
Ok, I admit, that was funny.
 
I don't want to get into the whole abortion argument but I am just curious about one thing. Would you kill your dog to save a heroin junkie?

huuuhm good question.... If I had the choice between killing a dog vs. killing the heroin junkie. I'd choose the dog.... does that work for an answer?
 
I'm, sure that's argument is great if you're Hindu, but instead I'd use dogs as the reason why they need to view abortion as a choice. Most humans love dogs more than cows and consider a dog a person.
I've heard a few anti's say abortion is fine if you've been raped. Which brings the question, well if that's fine,, must be fine other times.

A good point and I've struggled with this too, my own belief is that it IS life and should not be aborted even in the case of rape. I believe in a separation of government and "beliefs" though. Government's primary goal is for the protection of life, but that does not apply to self defense. In a strictly property rights defense, a woman has the right to abortion in the instance that the fetus was forced upon her or threatens her life.
 
OK... I don't know if I buy the argument below... but I'll just put it out there for fun......

If a person is being raped, one might say they are justified in defending themselves from the invasion of their body.... to the extent of killing the rapist and killing the life that the rapist has forced upon them.

IF one agrees to the above.... there is a problem.... the life within is also half you. Is it ok to kill your own, totally innocent life force?

Seems like a predicament

I would say ethically, no. But I'm not a woman. I say if the life was forced upon her though she should have a legal right to abortion.

thats the same rational thinking I used last night at the bar!
I saw a hottie and went up to her and asked her why she's not allowing her potential baby(read potential, something like 30% of all pregnancies self abort/never go anywhere) and she told me I was crazy, if she had a potential baby on its way, she'd take care of it.
Thats when I asked her to leave with me, we had the potential to have a baby,,.
then this morning she took a plan B pill...and it hurts when I pee, dang it...


one might say the sun rises everyday..see I can play this game *awaits next obvious fact*😀

Wait. What just happened here? :laugh:
 
I completely agree. If you believe that a fetus is fully a person (thus abortion is impermissible) than it doesn't matter if it's a product of rape, it's a person and that would still be murder. While from a practical standpoint I'm glad that even those that oppose abortion would mostly make such an exception, from a logical standpoint, it is logically inconsistent to make such as an exception. This is something I tried to engage Nick in earlier, but he's clearly having no part in it.

Well what if you believe it is fully a person, but accept that a woman should not have a legal responsibility to nurture a fetus that was forced upon her?

If someone is attacking you, you can still "believe" that that person is human, but you should still have the right to defend yourself in an appropriate manner, even if that ends the life of the aggressor.

Is my view consistent?
 
Well what if you believe it is fully a person, but accept that a woman should not have a legal responsibility to nurture a fetus that was forced upon her?

If someone is attacking you, you can still "believe" that that person is human, but you should still have the right to defend yourself in an appropriate manner, even if that ends the life of the aggressor.

Is my view consistent?

Depends. If it is your view that abortion is otherwise impermissible because the fetus is a person and has the legal protection thereof, then no, your view is not consistent. Regardless of what the rapist did, the fetus committed no crime, and is not any more an imminent threat than the fetus produced from consensual sex, so there is no more justification for killing this one than the other once we've decided it is a person that is protected under the law.
 
Depends. If it is your view that abortion is otherwise impermissible because the fetus is a person and has the legal protection thereof, then no, your view is not consistent. Regardless of what the rapist did, the fetus committed no crime, and is not any more an imminent threat than the fetus produced from consensual sex, so there is no more justification for killing this one than the other once we've decided it is a person that is protected under the law.


I agree with this only on personal ethics, I personally believe life is life no matter what. On legal grounds, though, no one should have the legal liability to be required to house another life that was forced upon them, and since there is no other way to remove a fetus without causing its death, it seems fair that abortion could be legal in this manner and still not inherently violate anyone's rights, including the fetus. The fetus may, in my opinion be life, but the manner with which it was imposed on the woman is in accordance with the right of the mother to remove the fetus, even though it will ultimately result in it perishing. Consensual sex on the other hand must legally warrant responsibility in my view.
 
I agree with this only on personal ethics, I personally believe life is life no matter what. On legal grounds, though, no one should have the legal liability to be required to house another life that was forced upon them, and since there is no other way to remove a fetus without causing its death, it seems fair that abortion could be legal in this manner and still not inherently violate anyone's rights, including the fetus. The fetus may, in my opinion be life, but the manner with which it was imposed on the woman is in accordance with the right of the mother to remove the fetus, even though it will ultimately result in it perishing. Consensual sex on the other hand must legally warrant responsibility in my view.

A raped woman has undergone a terrible trauma and has had her rights violated, this we can all agree on totally and unequivocally, and the woman's well-being should very much be of concern. Should a fetus be created, will an abortion help the woman?
 
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Well what if you believe it is fully a person, but accept that a woman should not have a legal responsibility to nurture a fetus that was forced upon her?

If someone is attacking you, you can still "believe" that that person is human, but you should still have the right to defend yourself in an appropriate manner, even if that ends the life of the aggressor.

Is my view consistent?
are your 2 paragraphs above consistent? apples vs oranges
 
A raped woman has undergone a terrible trauma and has had her rights violated, this we can all agree on totally and unequivocally, and the woman's well-being should very much be of concern. Should a fetus be created, will an abortion help the woman?
depends on the women

litte kids fall down and an ice cream or kiss helps them feel better
when I used to fall down as a lil kid, I like to get spanked

I was lucky that when i fell down my parents didnt force me to eat ice cream, I had a choice.

sorta how compared to decades ago, white people finally have a chance to sit in the front of the bus😀 choices are good(cept on MCAT)
 
Depends. If it is your view that abortion is otherwise impermissible because the fetus is a person and has the legal protection thereof, then no, your view is not consistent. Regardless of what the rapist did, the fetus committed no crime, and is not any more an imminent threat than the fetus produced from consensual sex, so there is no more justification for killing this one than the other once we've decided it is a person that is protected under the law.
the fetus, which isnt even cells after a rape....(just take a plan B pill and call it a day)
the law says the fetus gets rights after it is able to self-sustain(so I was told, I havent had time/inclination research what I was told)
Supreme Court ruled in Roe v. Wade that unborn individuals do acquire rights when they become capable of surviving outside the womb
so no, that parasite has no rights and a female has the right to do whatever she wants with her body.

Killing the rapist is self-defense and it's up to a jury to decide if killing him was legal or not
.
 
I would say ethically, no. But I'm not a woman. I say if the life was forced upon her though she should have a legal right to abortion.



Wait. What just happened here? :laugh:
I was teasing with MAfunk , about her belief that "potiential" must be honored or somethin like that, I can over look errors in spelling/grammer, as using an pda can difficult.. so I focus on absurd concepts/ideas
 
depends on the women

litte kids fall down and an ice cream or kiss helps them feel better
when I used to fall down as a lil kid, I like to get spanked

I was lucky that when i fell down my parents didnt force me to eat ice cream, I had a choice.

sorta how compared to decades ago, white people finally have a chance to sit in the front of the bus😀 choices are good(cept on MCAT)

The parallel that you're making is aborting fixes the rape that has occurred or alleviates the burden placed on the impregnated woman. Either way, aborting will not resolve the violent act of rape but rather says that the life of the mother and the life of the fetus are dependent on their physical condition.

Choices are tough on the MCAT 'cause you know only one is right.
 
No it does not indicate that you want a child, but it does carry that liability, one must be responsible for that liability if they assumed it voluntarily. You may not want to lose money when you gamble, but you assume that risk when you play.

And I reject the notion that just because there is a risk of something happening, we're forced to live with it. This is the whole point of abortion's existence; preventing people from being forced to carry through pregnancies despite the inherent risk of having [even protected] sex.

How does this fetus suddenly gain the right to life after the 13th trimester? It's still the same bundle of genetic information that it was from the beginning.

... Really? You're going to argue seriously about THAT comment? At least I know not to make any jokes around you in the future.

You can't just NOT accept risk. Everything in life is risk and everyone must be responsible for their actions. You can take preventive measures, but if it fails to remove the risk 100% then that's your own problem. Just like in a game of poker, you don't have to play, but if you do you must assume risk, even if you don't want to. Of course if it is forced upon you in the instance of rape, then it's a different story, as risk has not been voluntarily assumed.

No, you are not forced to accept risk. Why? Because abortions exist. If you want to shoulder the risk of bringing an unwanted pregnancy to term, go ahead. But I wouldn't.

What? If you follow your logic, murder of a living human being is essentially justified. This is by far the most bizarre justification that I've ever heard! There may not be scientific evidence of a soul, but there are scientific measurements that can quantify what is to be human vs a cow or any other organism.
😕😕😕

No, it's not. My argument is based on level of sentience, not type of genetic material. What makes humans special, to me, is their ability to perceive their environment in a different way than other creatures. A potential human does not have this quality. Again, you're arguing about "what is to be human," but to me, that qualifier just emphasizes the fact that it's not human yet.

There's no way to truly resolve this argument, though, since there's no way for either of us to convince the other that a potential human is/isn't worth saving.
 
Plus over-population is a made up problem, that doesn't hold up to economic law. China's one child policy was mostly a political failure and they are aimed at removing the legislation. Truth is healthy developed free economies tend to have very low growth rates and sometimes even negative growth rates.

Um...what? Over-population is not a "made up problem". You could spend just 20 minutes on the internet and know that. The rise of the human population will reach 9 billion in 2050 and the economic implications are important. The average life expectancy has raised to 85 in developed countries. The idea that "it doesn't hold up to economic law" is inflammatory. If you are talking demographic transition, the theory has been disproven with recent studies showing that the population size of developed countries with higher standards of living are increasing. China implemented the one-child policy specifically because of the effect over-population had and would continue to have upon its economy. "Healthy and developed free economies" have middling growth rates, but they are certainly not low (I wouldn't call the U.S.'s growth rate of 44% low). Also, it is important to consider the birth and growth rates in other countries because migration and immigration make up a huge portion of the U.S.'s population. Where will all these "unhealthy and underdeveloped" countries look when their resources are scarce? The United States accepts more immigrants than all other countries in the world combined and the actual population of the US would decline if immigration slowed.

Just some food for thought: the median estimated capacity of the earth is 10 billion people.

Wikiepedia is your friend: Overpopulation, Demographic Transition, anthropology of humans
One-child policy: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1912861,00.html
DHS Immigration Stats: http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/immigration.shtm
 
The parallel that you're making is aborting fixes the rape that has occurred or alleviates the burden placed on the impregnated woman. Either way, aborting will not resolve the violent act of rape but rather says that the life of the mother and the life of the fetus are dependent on their physical condition.

Choices are tough on the MCAT 'cause you know only one is right.
wrong, I never made any notion of fixing the rape

I said it depends on the woman and the only answer was the make sure she had a choice
she can pick whichever answer she wants and that will be the right answer
the mcat is easier with one right answer that is proven, (cept verbal!) todays choice of keeping/aborting the pregnancy may not feel right/wrong tomorrow
 
Um...what? Over-population is not a "made up problem". You could spend just 20 minutes on the internet and know that. The rise of the human population will reach 9 billion in 2050 and the economic implications are important. The average life expectancy has raised to 85 in developed countries. The idea that "it doesn't hold up to economic law" is inflammatory. If you are talking demographic transition, the theory has been disproven with recent studies showing that the population size of developed countries with higher standards of living are increasing. China implemented the one-child policy specifically because of the effect over-population had and would continue to have upon its economy. "Healthy and developed free economies" have middling growth rates, but they are certainly not low (I wouldn't call the U.S.'s growth rate of 44% low). Also, it is important to consider the birth and growth rates in other countries because migration and immigration make up a huge portion of the U.S.'s population. Where will all these "unhealthy and underdeveloped" countries look when their resources are scarce? The United States accepts more immigrants than all other countries in the world combined and the actual population of the US would decline if immigration slowed.

Just some food for thought: the median estimated capacity of the earth is 10 billion people.

Wikiepedia is your friend: Overpopulation, Demographic Transition, anthropology of humans
One-child policy: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1912861,00.html
DHS Immigration Stats: http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/immigration.shtm
so what we need is a good epidemic
the Feds really botched that attempt with HIV 😎
 
wrong, I never made any notion of fixing the rape

I said it depends on the woman and the only answer was the make sure she had a choice
she can pick whichever answer she wants and that will be the right answer
the mcat is easier with one right answer that is proven, (cept verbal!) todays choice of keeping/aborting the pregnancy may not feel right/wrong tomorrow

I was simply laying out both ways one could take what you said and my reply to both, my use of 'or'.

So in your view, the woman must weigh pros and cons of keeping the fetus or not and make a choice. What I am saying is that these pros and cons are measures of physical conditions of herself and the fetus, which do not equate to the value of a person. Do you not care for the poor, sick, handicapped, and imprisoned because of their physical or social condition? Do you not care for a wealthy man, telling him he is already well off and others need your aid? No, you care for them all, simply because they are a fellow human.

This is the fundamental reason behind white people finally having the chance to sit in the front of the bus.
 
I was simply laying out both ways one could take what you said and my reply to both, my use of 'or'.

So in your view, the woman must weigh pros and cons of keeping the fetus or not and make a choice. What I am saying is that these pros and cons are measures of physical conditions of herself and the fetus, which do not equate to the value of a person. Do you not care for the poor, sick, handicapped, and imprisoned because of their physical or social condition? Do you not care for a wealthy man, telling him he is already well off and others need your aid? No, you care for them all, simply because they are a fellow human.

This is the fundamental reason behind white people finally having the chance to sit in the front of the bus.

This argument doesn't make any sense. First, value is subjective so any assumption of value is based on the person assigning importance. Simply put, one human's perceived value has nothing to do with another person's actual value. Second, people willingly harm as seen in genocide and war so that throws out the idea of caring "simply because they are a fellow human". The free love and happiness mentality only works when you choose to ignore the power of hate in man. People are wonderful but they are also exceedingly cruel.

Finally, (and I assume you mean that black people can sit at the front of the bus) the dismantling of segregation really wasn't based on "caring for fellow humans" it was about civil rights and equality of treatment. Black populations didn't want to be given a free meal, they wanted the chance to work for that meal (and to be given fair wage and an opportunity to influence politics as well).
 
Ok, first, what?.

I dunno what you are talking about here?
And for the record, I haven't done anything to support pro-choice matters, so it clearly goes both ways.
goes both ways? I only bolded the part I was refering to, of course it applies to both choices, I'm all about the choice of the woman to guide what to do, until the baby is viable on its own,its a parasite,
 
I dunno what you are talking about here?

goes both ways? I only bolded the part I was refering to, of course it applies to both choices, I'm all about the choice of the woman to guide what to do, until the baby is viable on its own,its a parasite,

Yes, but you were talking about pro-life people generally not taking a stand, while I think pro-choice people are equally likely not to take a stand.
 
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No but I'd feed my cat to an ATM

I believe in taking care of myself and a balanced diet and rigorous exercise routine. In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches. I can do 1000 now. After I remove the ice pack I use a deep pore cleanser lotion. In the shower I use a water activated gel cleanser, then a honey almond body scrub, and on the face an exfoliating gel scrub. Then I apply an herb-mint facial mask which I leave on for 10 minutes while I prepare the rest of my routine. I always use an after shave lotion with little or no alcohol, because alcohol dries your face out and makes you look older. Then moisturizer, then an anti-aging eye balm followed by a final moisturizing protective lotion.
 
This argument doesn't make any sense. First, value is subjective so any assumption of value is based on the person assigning importance. Simply put, one human's perceived value has nothing to do with another person's actual value. Second, people willingly harm as seen in genocide and war so that throws out the idea of caring "simply because they are a fellow human". The free love and happiness mentality only works when you choose to ignore the power of hate in man. People are wonderful but they are also exceedingly cruel.

Finally, (and I assume you mean that black people can sit at the front of the bus) the dismantling of segregation really wasn't based on "caring for fellow humans" it was about civil rights and equality of treatment. Black populations didn't want to be given a free meal, they wanted the chance to work for that meal (and to be given fair wage and an opportunity to influence politics as well).

The value of a person is subjective? The fact that human beings are intrinsically different than any other thing, living or non-living, is self-evident. How exactly would anybody go about quantifying non-human vs a human?

For the italicized: my point originally was to reinforce the concept of the value of a person being unmeasurable. You're saying that because another person is hateful or has committed a crime, that reduces their intrinsic humanity?

And for the bus thing: another user jokingly used white people in place of black and so was I. The point was that african-americans were given the same rights and equal treatment because they were recognized as not being different than whites on the basis of physical condition.
 
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The value of a person is subjective? The fact that human beings are intrinsically different than any other thing, living or non-living, is self-evident. How exactly would anybody go about quantifying non-human vs a human?

For the italicized: my point originally was to reinforce the concept of the value of a person being unmeasurable. You're saying that because another person is hateful or has committed a crime, that reduces their intrinsic humanity? .
yes, it does
 
hmmm, to make this easy to understand, think of all humans as cars
the same car
same model, same color. same everything
cept one, it's engine is unstable and can blow up at any time and kill/hurt the driver and other cars around it
This cars intrinsic value isnt the same as everyone else because it hurts the other cars around it when it explodes


now think Pedophiles, hitler, Saddam Hussein, these humans have a defect in their brain which makes them hurt other humans, this lowers their value
its as simple and complex as that
 
hmmm, to make this easy to understand, think of all humans as cars
the same car
same model, same color. same everything
cept one, it's engine is unstable and can blow up at any time and kill/hurt the driver and other cars around it
This cars intrinsic value isnt the same as everyone else because it hurts the other cars around it when it explodes


now think Pedophiles, hitler, Saddam Hussein, these humans have a defect in their brain which makes them hurt other humans, this lowers their value
its as simple and complex as that

But this isn't about intrinsic value. It's about intrinsic humanity. Does killing someone make the killer less human?
 
But this isn't about intrinsic value. It's about intrinsic humanity. Does killing someone make the killer less human?
whats with the semantics?
the person is evil, hurting, killing others, I'd rather kill them they pay for their life sentence in jail
do you want your kids to be around any of those kind of people?
humans have rules to be in a society, they broke the rules we have tons of applicants on the planet who dont break the rules.
why shouldnt they be killed?
 
whats with the semantics?
the person is evil, hurting, killing others, I'd rather kill them they pay for their life sentence in jail
do you want your kids to be around any of those kind of people?
humans have rules to be in a society, they broke the rules we have tons of applicants on the planet who dont break the rules.
why shouldnt they be killed?

Easy. Because a lifetime in prison is likely a far worse punishment.:meanie:
 
Easy. Because a lifetime in prison is likely a far worse punishment.
in your opinion

them spending time in prison wont make the crime they commited be undone and killing them(in theory) saves me money.
I'm not an eye for an eye, etc, I'm for getting rid of the human defect and getting on with my life. not taking care of her till s/he dies

plus, if done well, killing them will prevent future capitol crimes by telling defects they will die. in theory
 
And I reject the notion that just because there is a risk of something happening, we're forced to live with it. This is the whole point of abortion's existence; preventing people from being forced to carry through pregnancies despite the inherent risk of having [even protected] sex.

You have a poor argument in my opinion. Using contraceptives you can reduce the risk down to near zero. Not engaging in sex you can eliminate the risk altogether. If they engaged in the activity that caused them to become pregnant voluntarily then they have been forced into nothing. The whole point of abortion is not to prevent something, I have nothing against prevention, abortion removes what would naturally become a life, or is a life already by all genetic means. Simply because you can do something isn't justification for doing that thing.

If there's one guy standing in my way of getting into med school and I can get away with killing him, doesn't mean I should have the legal right to do so. By applying to med school I assume the risk that I won't make it in.

... Really? You're going to argue seriously about THAT comment? At least I know not to make any jokes around you in the future.

Sorry I thought I read that you said it was ok before 12 weeks not 12 trimesters. 😛

No, you are not forced to accept risk. Why? Because abortions exist. If you want to shoulder the risk of bringing an unwanted pregnancy to term, go ahead. But I wouldn't.

This doesn't make sense. Murder, stealing, assault, and fraud also exist, is there ever any justification for these actions if they reduce my risk of a future event that is a result of a voluntary action you take in the present. You have no understanding of risk.

From your logic, life should be risk-free. In any almost instance you can remove risk by killing someone, threatening someone, stealing from someone, it doesn't justify the action though.

No, it's not. My argument is based on level of sentience, not type of genetic material. What makes humans special, to me, is their ability to perceive their environment in a different way than other creatures. A potential human does not have this quality. Again, you're arguing about "what is to be human," but to me, that qualifier just emphasizes the fact that it's not human yet.

There's no way to truly resolve this argument, though, since there's no way for either of us to convince the other that a potential human is/isn't worth saving.

You got me here. But you'll never convince me! 😉
 
in your opinion

them spending time in prison wont make the crime they commited be undone and killing them(in theory) saves me money.
I'm not an eye for an eye, etc, I'm for getting rid of the human defect and getting on with my life. not taking care of her till s/he dies

plus, if done well, killing them will prevent future capitol crimes by telling defects they will die. in theory

Just to challenge your thought a little, killing them does not undo the crime either, and in most circumstances it costs more to kill them, than to imprison them. A painless death is an easier way out, and the determent argument is wrong, at least in terms of comparing countries with and without the death penalty. Not to mention the ethical argument of deciding who gets to kill the killer, and the consequences of giving the government the legal right to kill someone, despite historically getting it wrong on many occasion and a judicial system that statistically is biased against minority groups.
 
You have a poor argument in my opinion. Using contraceptives you can reduce the risk down to near zero. Not engaging in sex you can eliminate the risk altogether. If they engaged in the activity that caused them to become pregnant voluntarily then they have been forced into nothing.

The day that the religious right agrees to stop trying to limit access to contraception is the day I will consider this to be a valid argument.
 
Um...what? Over-population is not a "made up problem". You could spend just 20 minutes on the internet and know that. The rise of the human population will reach 9 billion in 2050 and the economic implications are important. The average life expectancy has raised to 85 in developed countries. The idea that "it doesn't hold up to economic law" is inflammatory. If you are talking demographic transition, the theory has been disproven with recent studies showing that the population size of developed countries with higher standards of living are increasing. China implemented the one-child policy specifically because of the effect over-population had and would continue to have upon its economy. "Healthy and developed free economies" have middling growth rates, but they are certainly not low (I wouldn't call the U.S.'s growth rate of 44% low). Also, it is important to consider the birth and growth rates in other countries because migration and immigration make up a huge portion of the U.S.'s population. Where will all these "unhealthy and underdeveloped" countries look when their resources are scarce? The United States accepts more immigrants than all other countries in the world combined and the actual population of the US would decline if immigration slowed.

Just some food for thought: the median estimated capacity of the earth is 10 billion people.

Wikiepedia is your friend: Overpopulation, Demographic Transition, anthropology of humans
One-child policy: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1912861,00.html
DHS Immigration Stats: http://www.dhs.gov/files/statistics/immigration.shtm

Totally off topic, sorry I brought it up, but no I don't believe that. To assume that we will become overpopulated is known as malthusianism and is a concept as old as the industrial revolution. It only holds up if you assume that the rate of population increase will increase at the current rate and that resources will remain static. Socialist countries, or countries reliant on central planning, can have population issues, but assuming a strong price model, as resources become more scarce and employment becomes increasingly specialized, costs of raising and investing in children will increase, creating a checks and balance for the population. In less-developed countries, space and natural resources are usually abundant, death rates and poverty rates are high, and little capital is available so there is a reliance on human labor. This encourages large families. But I don't want to get this thread off topic so I'll start another thread in the lounge, we argue more there! 🙂
 
The day that the religious right agrees to stop trying to limit access to contraception is the day I will consider this to be a valid argument.

Agree 100%. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a religious nut. I just don't see how we can reach the conclusion that life becomes life after birth, what's the difference a couple months before? I think in the instance of rape and harm to the mother, abortion is justifiable in the sense that the mother has the right to her resources and a right to self-defense, in that in the case of rape, the fetus had been forced onto her and she should not be forced to house it just like she should not be forced to house a bum that has broken into her house, and that in the case of harm to mother, the fetus is (although it sounds weird saying it) attacking her, and she has the right to defend herself.
 
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Totally off topic, sorry I brought it up, but no I don't believe that. To assume that we will become overpopulated is known as malthusianism and is a concept as old as the industrial revolution. It only holds up if you assume that the rate of population increase will increase at the current rate and that resources will remain static. Socialist countries, or countries reliant on central planning, can have population issues, but assuming a strong price model, as resources become more scarce and employment becomes increasingly specialized, costs of raising and investing in children will increase, creating a checks and balance for the population. In less-developed countries, space and natural resources are usually abundant, death rates and poverty rates are high, and little capital is available so there is a reliance on human labor. This encourages large families. But I don't want to get this thread off topic so I'll start another thread in the lounge, we argue more there! 🙂

Malthus and a strong price model have little to do with the facts of fishery depletion, soil loss, deforestation, sea level rise, and climate change. Leave the dismal science out of this, real science is gloomy enough. 🙄
 
Agree 100%. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a religious nut. I just don't see how we can reach the conclusion that life becomes life after birth, what's the difference a couple months before? I think in the instance of rape and harm to the mother, abortion is justifiable in the sense that the mother has the right to her resources and a right to self-defense, in that in the case of rape, the fetus had been forced onto her and she should not be forced to house it just like she should not be forced to house a bum that has broken into her house, and that in the case of harm to mother, the fetus is (although it sounds weird saying it) attacking her, and she has the right to defend herself.

If a bum breaks in and leaves an infant in her house, does she have the right to kill it? That seems a more apt analogy; the fetus, after all, isn't aware of its own existence, much less the circumstances of its creation.

Again, I'm pro-choice, I just think the rape clause is a fig leaf that can't be rationally justified as the ONLY instance where abortion is permissible.

But then there's this lady.

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Like I said earlier, I find this stance abhorrent and I think she has a screw loose, but I can respect her consistency and willingness to stand by an argument that makes most people cringe.

That said, the fact that such people exist is a reason in and of itself to never yield an inch on abortion rights. She will never compromise, and she isn't alone. Why should I? What common ground can we ever possibly have? This is why I'm deeply suspicious of the Solomonic Compromises like "no abortion except for XYZ" because the moment you agree to it, they start gunning for XYZ. They never give up, because they really do mean what they say, unlike the "centrist" quislings who perpetually insist that women's rights be ritually sacrificed to "take this issue off the table once and for all".
 
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You have a poor argument in my opinion. Using contraceptives you can reduce the risk down to near zero. Not engaging in sex you can eliminate the risk altogether. If they engaged in the activity that caused them to become pregnant voluntarily then they have been forced into nothing. The whole point of abortion is not to prevent something, I have nothing against prevention, abortion removes what would naturally become a life, or is a life already by all genetic means. Simply because you can do something isn't justification for doing that thing.

If there's one guy standing in my way of getting into med school and I can get away with killing him, doesn't mean I should have the legal right to do so. By applying to med school I assume the risk that I won't make it in.

Fundamentally, what we disagree upon is whether this unborn thing deserves to be treated as a fully realized human life. I kind of have to disregard your last argument because given my view of a conceived fetus, the analogy is completely ridiculous. There is no argument to the contrary that I can conceive (har har.) that would convince me otherwise.

And while abortion is not preventative in terms of pregnancy, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about preventing someone from being forced to go through labor, a far more dangerous endeavor than terminating the pregnancy. No one (Well, some people are, obviously.) is arguing that people shouldn't use contraception, but the notion that having a rare and unintentional event occur while you're having protected sex must necessarily mean that you are responsible for maintaining a pregnancy that might ultimately kill you is ridiculous.

And believe it or not, I love the seatbelt analogy for this one. Driving has a poor chance of injuring you if done safely. If you're not wearing a seat belt, the chances go way up. In the rare event that you have a life-threatening, doctors wouldn't deny you care and friends wouldn't deny you sympathy if they found out that you weren't wearing a seat belt. They would try to make sure that you return to normal, not tell you that you broke your own leg and that you can make the cast yourself.

That's how I view the termination of a pregnancy, whether it's because of a lack of or failure of contraception (although I support abortion unilaterally, this is what we're really talking about). My council wouldn't be that you shouldn't drive or that you shouldn't have sex; they're both extremely rewarding endeavors when done well. There are risks. And if one of those risks becomes a reality, and there's any way to fix it, it should be done. The driver might have scars from his injuries, and the mother might suffer psychological damage (Feel free to provide data on suicide rates post-termination. It would be compelling if the chance of post-termination suicide were greater than the percent of post-childbirth suicide.), but unless those things are worse than living with poorly mended limbs or having an unwanted childbirth respectively, the treatment needs to be given out.

Perhaps a better analogy, which I don't have the energy to write out extremely coherently, is HIV. People who contract HIV are provided treatment for their illness by doctors despite the fact that having sex (sometimes protected) is one of its causes. While HIV negative patients are told to take preventative measures, once the sero-conversion happens, no good doctor would ever give a second thought to prescribing anti-viral medication to prevent the onset of AIDS, which you COULD say they should have to deal with given the fact that they chose to have sex and it led to something that is a risk of having sex. But no reasonable person would do that. Just as I don't think any reasonable person (who believes that a blastocyst or early fetus is not actually human life that merits saving.) would deny a woman an abortion.

But feel free to pick apart these analogies. They're definitely not perfect.
 
The value of a person is subjective? The fact that human beings are intrinsically different than any other thing, living or non-living, is self-evident. How exactly would anybody go about quantifying non-human vs a human?

For the italicized: my point originally was to reinforce the concept of the value of a person being unmeasurable. You're saying that because another person is hateful or has committed a crime, that reduces their intrinsic humanity?

And for the bus thing: another user jokingly used white people in place of black and so was I. The point was that african-americans were given the same rights and equal treatment because they were recognized as not being different than whites on the basis of physical condition.

Value is subjective and relative, yes. That is inherent in the definition of value.

value: relative worth, utility, or importance <a good value at the price> <the value of base stealing in baseball> <had nothing of value to say>
valuable: : having desirable or esteemed characteristics or qualities

Just because an organism is unique, does not make it valuable. Again, since value is based upon the thing assigning worth, our measured desirability can alter enormously. Are we as humans valuable to the koala bear? Is our existence valuable to a deep sea fish? Your argument is that we are unique and therefore valid; what about the blind cave dwelling amphibian the olm in Europe? I'd venture to say that while certain incurable diseases are unique, many people would not say they have positive value.

As for the second point, you claimed that caring for other humans is an innate quality of humanity. I offered a rebuttal. As a species, we have the potential to care and the potential to harm. And let's not mince words; there is a difference between being "hateful" and committing genocide. In response to your claim that "you help people because they are human", you don't care for someone based on their humanity. If your logic follows that we offer aid to foster our fellow humans, then we equally harm them for the same reason. That doesn't make sense.

I'm confused on the third part: why is being black a physical condition?
 
Malthus and a strong price model have little to do with the facts of fishery depletion, soil loss, deforestation, sea level rise, and climate change. Leave the dismal science out of this, real science is gloomy enough. 🙄

New thread up in the sociopolitical section.