Sliding Scale a Myth??

[acrobat]

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megboo,

Well they keep their system secret, but I am very confident in my sources of the point system there. Believe what u will.

 

[Beau Geste]

megboo,

Believe what u will.

I will until I find out otherwise. Then I'll be the first to apologize.

 

[acrobat]

I forgot to add, I believe you can get an extra point if you have completeed grad school also.

That makes achieving the 5 points much easier

I like yr cat picture megboo. That little cat is in trouble

 

[Sartre79]

The Doc I shadow went to U of Chicago, and served on the admiss committe. There is a formula used there to determine if you get a secondary, but once you pass that mark your scores don't matter...only the qualitative things and your interview day make you stand out. But again, this is U of Chicago. "they don't want vanilla, they want rocky road"

 

[acrobat]

That's how MCW works. Half of the unterviewed get in normally. The other half rejected.

But Madison is more like well I don't know, but most of the interviewed are rejected. But at least you get a chance.

 

[LizzyM]

Why do u subtract one point from your system?

To adjust for the acceptability of applicants with stats that are slightly(but just slightly) below the school's average. Remember the NUMBER is the school average MCAT plus ten times the school average gpa, and then minus 1. This means that if your the school average MCAT is 32 and average gpa is 3.6, you are good with a 32/3.5 or 31/ 3.6 which I think is about right.

Also that system you made weighs MCAT a lot more than GPA?
a 3.6 to a 3.7 gets you one point. That's a big jump.

From this idea

a 3.6 and a 34 MCAT is 70 points
a 3.8 and a 32 MCAT is 70 points

Do you really get that nuch out of your MCAT results?

Yes. A 34 is 11 11 12 or some similar combination. It is, IIRC, equivalent to 92 percentile on the MCAT. A 10 10 12 or a 11 11 10 is not as strong and I think that it is equivalent to 0.2 on gpa.

This is just a ball-park estimate of how you can compare your own stats to a school which interests you. Take Cornell (Weill): the average total MCAT of the matriculants is 34.4 and the mean science gpa is 3.71. Using the formula the school's NUMBER would be: 70.5. Substitute your own science gpa in this example (because Weill doesn't give total gpa (at least I couldn't put my finger on it at the moment)) and you can determine if you are competitive at Weill from an academic standpoint.

Let's look at New York Medical College. It has an average gpa of 3.5 and average MCAT of 29.5. So, the number for NYMC is 63.5 (35+29.5-1).

What I am trying to say is that an applicant whose stats add up to 67 is going to be a strong candidate at NYMC but find Weill to be a reach.

I just invented this formula this morning over a cup of coffee. I think that it quantifies what most of us just grasp intuitively (we don't really use the formula in everyday life).

 

[LizzyM]

(if you did a post-bach to make up for a poor undergrad gpa use the post-bach gpa times 8 rather than your undergrad gpa times 10).

On second thought, for a post-bac, the multiplier might be closer to 9 or 9.5 I think 8 is a little harsh (it would mean that that a post-bac 4.0 equals an undergrad 3.2).

 

[MollyMalone]

UW-Madison does indeed function on a point system that is similar to what acrobat described. The exact details are, of course, slightly hazy, but this was confirmed to me by multiple members of the admissions staff before and during my interview day.

 

[LizzyM]

UW-Madison does indeed function on a point system that is similar to what acrobat described. The exact details are, of course, slightly hazy, but this was confirmed to me by multiple members of the admissions staff before and during my interview day.

I can accept a point system but not the concept that someone who is great on paper will get an offer of admission even if they come across as creepy or poorly motivated in the interview.

 

[acrobat]

I take it the primary goals of the interviewee (us) should be to stress going into medicine for the right reasons and to come across as motivated?

LizzyM

One of the points at UW is based on the interview, another on letters, another on activities- so if they think u are "creepy", ull be eliminated I assume.

 

[leahmaria]

so, do we think if i have under a 3.7 and i haven't done grad work i don't stand a chance?

 

[LizzyM]

One of the points at UW is based on the interview, another on letters, another on activities- so if they think u are "creepy", ull be eliminated I assume.

I thought that there were 6 or 7 possible points and you need 5 to get an offer which suggests that a point for the interview is optional for some strong applicants. I can't see where the interivew can be elimiated as a deal breaker.

Some applicants (<1%) are socially inappropriate:

craning his neck around & trying to read what the interview is writing

putting his feet on the interviewer's desk (not the same guy)

being rude to the receptionist or clerical staff when he thinks that no one "important" is in earshot.

(not necessarily a "he" but you get the idea).

 

[LizzyM]

so, do we think if i have under a 3.7 and i haven't done grad work i don't stand a chance?

With a 3.61 gpa, if you can manage >33 on the MCAT (12, 11, 11 or something in that ballpark) you'll match or exceed the NUMBER at Pitt (69.1) and Case (68.2), just to throw out 2 examples.

 

[acrobat]

There is a 6th point for exceptionally strong academic background. This does not mean a 3.7 and a 34 MCAT. It means like super exceptional. The person who I talked to two years ago told me that like 1 or 2 people were awarded this point. Those people had already gotten the point for GPA and MCAT so you have no chance at the extra point if you hadn't gotten the others.

I think the idea behind this point, is well IDK it's a crazy system to begin with but I think if you didn't have significant activities yet were outstanding, they'd take you anyway. Or if you lacked the point for good letters because someone wrote u bad letters but you had good activities, then this point could come into play for super exceptional people.

I imagine if they didn't like you they'd jsut use common sense and reject you no matter how many points u had.

 

[leahmaria]

With a 3.61 gpa, if you can manage >33 on the MCAT (12, 11, 11 or something in that ballpark) you'll match or exceed the NUMBER at Pitt (69.1) and Case (68.2), just to throw out 2 examples.

Well, at Madison, for their 5/6 point system..my interview there is coming up soon

 

[LizzyM]

Well, at Madison, for their 5/6 point system..my interview there is coming up soon

 

[sunflwr85]

LizzyM

I don't want to turn this into a "what does lizzym say about my stats" deal, but I do have a question about your formula. I've noticed you keep stressing balanced MCAT scores. What changes if your MCAT is very unbalanced? Based on the formula, my number is around or above most of the schools I applied to, but I'm still concerned due to my unbalanced score. Thoughts?

 

[acrobat]

My MCAT was 10 11 13 Q

that's a little unbalanced?

I don't think taht formula works for top tier schools. If it did anyone with a 3.6 and MCAT say 34-35 would be competitive anywhere in the country more or less.

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM

I don't want to turn this into a "what does lizzym say about my stats" deal, but I do have a question about your formula. I've noticed you keep stressing balanced MCAT scores. What changes if your MCAT is very unbalanced? Based on the formula, my number is around or above most of the schools I applied to, but I'm still concerned due to my unbalanced score. Thoughts?

If the percentile of one of your scores is completely below the 50th percentile (when you have the score thay also give a range percentile and this shows up on the AMCAS), I think that the formula may go out the window or be a less reliable measure of your viability at a given school.

So a 5 13 13 is not equivalent to a 10 11 10. On the other hand, a 8, 10, 12, while not balanced, is not horrible. I do like to see the two science scores sum to not less than 20 but at some schools students with science scores that sum to 17 or 18 may do okay (not so at some top tier schools where the grading is on a curve and a very weak test taker can get into academic trouble).

 

[MollyMalone]

I thought that there were 6 or 7 possible points and you need 5 to get an offer which suggests that a point for the interview is optional for some strong applicants. I can't see where the interivew can be elimiated as a deal breaker.

Some applicants (<1%) are socially inappropriate:

craning his neck around & trying to read what the interview is writing

putting his feet on the interviewer's desk (not the same guy)

being rude to the receptionist or clerical staff when he thinks that no one "important" is in earshot.

(not necessarily a "he" but you get the idea).

I hear what you're saying and I personally agree. That said, the folks at Madison really do not place much weight at all on the interview. I was told flat out on my interview day that the interview is given the same weight as a single LOR, and that they have been and are currently strongly considering eliminating it altogether. The faculty interview is extremely brief (15 minutes or so for almost everyone in my large group) and the "student interview" is hardly even worthy of the name. I seriously doubt that they ever will get rid of the interview for just the reasons you describe, but it is certainly a low stress interview day.

 

[LizzyM]

If your NUMBER is 1-2 points higher, [than the school's NUMBER] then you are an average candidate. More than 2 points higher, you have a better than 50-50 chance of getting an interview (most schools only interview a small fraction of the applicant pool).

If your NUMBER is 1-5 points lower but you bring some special skills or experience to the table, then you may be suitable for admission and have a shot at getting an interview if the circumstances are right.

If your number is >=79 you've got nothing to worry about. If your number is <50, you do not have a prayer.

To have a 79 you need a 4.0 and a 39 or 3.9 and 40. Those folks have nothing to worry about acadmically. The only thing that would hold such an applicant back would be EC, LOR or a really bad interview.

Someone with a NUMBER more than 2 points higher than the med school's NUMBER has a 50-50 chance of getting an interview. So not everyone with that 3.6, 35 is going to get interviewed but they have a better shot than someone with a 3.3/28.

 

[leahmaria]

well you made me smile, thanks. i'll let you all know how that goes...mdapps profiles don't hold to this, atleast

 

[remo]

To have a 79 you need a 4.0 and a 39 or 3.9 and 40. Those folks have nothing to worry about acadmically. The only thing that would hold such an applicant back would be EC, LOR or a really bad interview.

Someone with a NUMBER more than 2 points higher than the med school's NUMBER has a 50-50 chance of getting an interview. So not everyone with that 3.6, 35 is going to get interviewed but they have a better shot than someone with a 3.3/28.

LizzyM how do you account for a trend in gpa? I had like a 2.3 my first 2 years and a 3.8 my last 2.

 

[Law2Doc]

but not the concept that someone who is great on paper will get an offer of admission even if they come across as creepy or poorly motivated in the interview.

I agree with this, and would take it a step further. The interview is rarely just "a formality". People who come off passive or lukewarm or arrogant or entitled or not well thought out tend to get shunted off to the waitlist even if they weren't creepy, psycho, introverted, etc. Some schools will even go so far as to tell you that the interview becomes the paramount determining factor once you get to that stage.
I know people who got in above many of their better credentialed (academically speaking) fellow interviewees, thanks to stronger interviewing and personal skills. (Some were even subsequently told this). So prepare for the interview and take it as seriously as every other component of the application process.

 

[acrobat]

"I was told flat out on my interview day that the interview is given the same weight as a single LOR"

Yes, the fuzzy details of their system is all coming back now. I can't definitetly confirm that one.

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM how do you account for a trend in gpa? I had like a 2.3 my first 2 years and a 3.8 my last 2.

If I've done the math correctly, your gpa is about 3.05. A school that reads every application thoroughly rather than cutting some low-end applicants based on cut points, is going to look at the scores by year (AMCAS provides this on a table) and feel good about the amazing up-tick in grades. The talented applicant is likely to have an MCAT that is disproportionate to the 3.05 gpa. (The application reader says, "gpa 3.05, MCAT 36-- that's odd; what's up with this guy?")

If there is some explanation in the essay, supplemental and/or the LOR regarding the amazing change in grades (e.g. illness or other issue resolved, epiphany & renewed interest in school), then looking at the whole package (including ECs) the adcom may think that this applicant has an interesting story to tell and may be worthy of an interview despite the low overall gpa.

 

[alphaholic06]

LizzyM,

How important is verbal in your formula? Also can having high PS and BS score help when your verbal score is low, and can having a high verbal score help offset a low science section?

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM,

How important is verbal in your formula? Also can having high PS and BS score help when your verbal score is low, and can having a high verbal score help offset a low science section?

I like to see a combined science score of 20 (other adcom members & other schools may have a different preference) and a high verbal doesn't change that.

I like to see a verbal that is above the 50th percentile (so at least a 7 or 8, I'm not exactly sure where the cut point is and I just go by the AMCAS). Sometimes, if the humanities grades in undergrad are very good, the essays are well written, and particularly, if the applicant is a non-native speaker of English, there might be a chance that someone will be given a little slack on the verbal score.

 

[TIGIBedHead]

Hi Lizzy,
Could you address the question of sci gpa vs. overall? How would you account for somewhat of a discrepancy between the two (let's say around a 0.3 difference)? Thanks.

 

[LizzyM]

Hi Lizzy,
Could you address the question of sci gpa vs. overall? How would you account for somewhat of a discrepancy between the two (let's say around a 0.3 difference)? Thanks.

Science gpa is a subset of overall so one really wants to look as BCPM v. AO (all other). AMCAS gives us this. Generally, it is not a big issue.

I usually run my finger down the list of classes & grades looking for anything really horrible (C- in OChem and Physics) and to determine if there are any worrisome situations that should be explained in the narratives or the LOR. (sometimes you get someone who was a victim of violence or severely ill or who had some other catastrophy that resulted in a bad quarter; it helps to know what happened and to have the story corroborated by a LOR from the pre-med office or an advisor)

 

[mmmkay121]

People who come off passive or lukewarm or arrogant or entitled or not well thought out tend to get shunted off to the waitlist even if they weren't creepy, psycho, introverted, etc.

Being introverted is normal and many people, good and bad, have that personality. Do medical schools really think introverts should be grouped with "creepy" and "psycho" people?

 

[TIGIBedHead]

Being introverted is normal and many people, good and bad, have that personality. Do medical schools really think introverts should be grouped with "creepy" and "psycho" people?

We had a whole discussion about this in another thread 😉

It comes down to how you're using the term. The lay definition implies someone who focuses on the self and withdraws from the outside world. The definition as understood in psychological terms is that an introvert recharges from time spent alone. Law2Doc is using the lay definition, no worries. We introverts are a-okay 🙂

 

[Law2Doc]

We had a whole discussion about this in another thread 😉

It comes down to how you're using the term. The lay definition implies someone who focuses on the self and withdraws from the outside world. The definition as understood in psychological terms is that an introvert recharges from time spent alone. Law2Doc is using the lay definition, no worries. We introverts are a-okay 🙂

Agreed. The way some people on SDN use the term introvert is not the lay definition, which equates more to a higher degree of social withdrawal than merely being shy. Think socially inept hermit. Just be aware that most the the non-psychology world considers being an introvert a negative thing and would see a distinct conflict in being both an introvert and a good clinician.

 

[rachmoninov3]

To LizzyM:

A short change from numbers, (with the redefined post-bac X 9.5, I'm ok for my favorite school--this made my day, thanks!) What do you look for in the interview? I applied late, and felt like I bombed my interviews, so I'm looking for any suggestions you might have.

 

[LizzyM]

To lizzyM:

What do you look for in the interview?

Firm handshake and eye contact. A smile (I'm not going to beat you, so don't look like I'm leading you to my torture chamber as we walk from the waiting area to the office.)

An ability to look comfortable while making small talk.

Genuine enthusiasm for whatever I ask about from the AMCAS application (athletics, hobby, job, research, volunteer work, elective courses).

A genuine, well thought out but not rehearsed answer to the question, "why medicine?"

A willingness to talk about how problems or weaknesses have been overcome. ("I see that you bounced back after a terrible spring semester in your freshman year; how did you do that?")

A good question or two about the school. Extra points if the applicant throws in a comment that shows some initiative in learning about the school before interview day. (please do not ask me what makes the school "unique". Unique means "one of a kind" and that is asking me to make a judgment about my school in comparision to every other school, something that I am unable to do)

Confidence but no arrogance or sense of entitlement.

No rehearsed or "canned" answers. A smooth conversational tone.

A handshake and a genuine "thank you" at the end of the interview.

 

[TakingBakSunday]

LizzyM, any insight on whether the formula for gpa and MCAT is tweaked for engineering gpas from competitive programs? or would you just take that into account when comparing an applicant's result to a school's number?

Thanks!

 

[thupham]

I thought that there were 6 or 7 possible points and you need 5 to get an offer which suggests that a point for the interview is optional for some strong applicants. I can't see where the interivew can be elimiated as a deal breaker.

Some applicants (<1%) are socially inappropriate:

craning his neck around & trying to read what the interview is writing

putting his feet on the interviewer's desk (not the same guy)

being rude to the receptionist or clerical staff when he thinks that no one "important" is in earshot.

(not necessarily a "he" but you get the idea).

LOL!

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM, any insight on whether the formula for gpa and MCAT is tweaked for engineering gpas from competitive programs? or would you just take that into account when comparing an applicant's result to a school's number?

Thanks!

If I were engraving my formula in stone (Lord help us!), I'd give engineering majors from top schools an extra ~0.33 on the gpa to make up for the hideous grading in those schools/departments. That is to say that a 3.33 for an engineering student is equal to a 3.66 for someone in a liberal arts program. However, I'd cap this bonus such that one can not have more than a 4.0 gpa (so for an engineer with a gpa of 3.70 the add on would be just 0.3)

 

[dr_zippo]

If I were engraving my formula in stone (Lord help us!), I'd give engineering majors from top schools an extra ~0.33 on the gpa to make up for the hideous grading in those schools/departments. That is to say that a 3.33 for an engineering student is equal to a 3.66 for someone in a liberal arts program. However, I'd cap this bonus such that one can not have more than a 4.0 gpa (so for an engineer with a gpa of 3.70 the add on would be just 0.3)

👍 👍 👍 You just made my day! Now if only I could figure out what school you were on the adcom for.

 

[LizzyM]

👍 👍 👍 You just made my day! Now if only I could figure out what school you were on the adcom for.

You hardly need the extra points as an engineering student. And as far as post-bac, that's only an issue when an applicant has a poor undergrad gpa & takes the post-bac to improve a gpa. You aren't in that boat either.

I can't say if you've applied to my school but I think that your stats look good and you should get at least one offer if you interview well.

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

Firm handshake and eye contact. A smile (I'm not going to beat you, so don't look like I'm leading you to my torture chamber as we walk from the waiting area to the office.)

An ability to look comfortable while making small talk.

Genuine enthusiasm for whatever I ask about from the AMCAS application (athletics, hobby, job, research, volunteer work, elective courses).

A genuine, well thought out but not rehearsed answer to the question, "why medicine?"

A willingness to talk about how problems or weaknesses have been overcome. ("I see that you bounced back after a terrible spring semester in your freshman year; how did you do that?")

A good question or two about the school. Extra points if the applicant throws in a comment that shows some initiative in learning about the school before interview day. (please do not ask me what makes the school "unique". Unique means "one of a kind" and that is asking me to make a judgment about my school in comparision to every other school, something that I am unable to do)

Confidence but no arrogance or sense of entitlement.

No rehearsed or "canned" answers. A smooth conversational tone.

A handshake and a genuine "thank you" at the end of the interview.

This is an excellent list and should be added to the FAQ.

The only concern I have is appearing to have a rehearsed or canned answer to "Why medicine?" because fellow premeds ask, parents ask, friends of parents ask, the secondaries ask, the premed committee ask, doctors you shadow ask, followed by the inevitable and inexorable "are you sure?", etc etc

After explaining a hundred times the answer starts feeling more rigid and well-defined...

 

[p9142]

Firm handshake and eye contact.


A handshake and a genuine "thank you" at the end of the interview.

Do you think it matters where we are applying? In the south it is generally considered rude to offer your hand to a woman unless she offers first. Just wondering if that matters, or if we should always shake hands regardless of sex.

 

[bretticus]

Do you think it matters where we are applying? In the south it is generally considered rude to offer your hand to a woman unless she offers first. Just wondering if that matters, or if we should always shake hands regardless of sex.

I'm from the South and didn't know that 😕

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

I'm from the South and didn't know that 😕

I'm also from the south and I've never heard that.

 

[p9142]

I'm also from the south and I've never heard that.

I'm from the South and didn't know that 😕

OK, my bad, maybe I am just a super redneck. However during a seminar last year, the Dean of my school was talking about how it is often hard for yankees to adjust to the south. He brought this up as an example. Then again, he is a crotchety old ass.

 

[bretticus]

OK, my bad, maybe I am just a super redneck. However during a seminar last year, the Dean of my school was talking about how it is often hard for yankees to adjust to the south. He brought this up as an example. Then again, he is a crotchety old ass.

Haha, nah you're not a redneck. If anything that would be characteristic of the Old South - quite refined. I wouldn't think most people would have a problem with something like that though. I mean I can probably count the number of times I've seen all the men in a room rise when a woman enters.

 

[LizzyM]

Well, I guess the point is, I'm a lady and I'm older 🙂o ) than the applicants and I will offer my hand when I thank the applicant for coming to the interview. Many applicants are seem unprepared for this or ignore my extended hand. If you are "old school", expect it, watch for it, and be ready but don't offer your hand to a woman or a senior person if it makes you uncomfortable from the standpoint of social propriety.

 

[leahmaria]

MCW does a sliding scale.

Some schools have cut offs. Like UW_Madison does 1 point in 6 areas- if u get 5 points ur in. 1 point is basically impossible to get, and is only given for super academic achievement. There might be a point given to minorities also for a freebie though I'm unsure on that.

One point is if u have over a 3.7
One point is 30 and above MCAT
One point is clinical
One point is interview
One point is LOR
(If i rememeber them right)

So if you have a 3.66..you're not getting in there whereas at MCQ u still might get in.

So, I hate to resurrect this...but for anyone reading this in the future, I'd like to point out that I got accepted to UW-Madison! Let's go through this point system. I don't have any super academic acheivement...and I haven't done a day of research work. I am a white, traditional, wi resident applicant with no disadvantaged status or extenuating circumstances. I didn't do my undergrad in the UW system, either.

One point is if u have over a 3.7 (I don't have this, 3.64, and 3.58 bcpm)
One point is 30 and above MCAT (I do have this, 38S)
One point is clinical (I do have this, job shadowing and internship)
One point is interview (I think this went well)
One point is LOR (I've been told that they're good)

So, I scored a 4/6, if this is true, and I got accepted...no waitlist. No one at my interview alluded to any sort of point system, and in fact were very detailed about how they were going to decide...it involved 5 members of the adcom reading my file, the most enthusiastic about me presenting to the rest of the adcom, the least enthusiastic bringing up concerns, the other three speaking up, a discussion, and then the adcom's vote on how enthusiastic they all are about me.

So, don't be discouraged from applying to Madison if you don't have the 5 points...apparently that's not all they look for. all!

 

[Kikaku21]

Take a given school's average MCAT. Add 10 times the school's average gpa. Subtract 1. Call this the school's NUMBER.

If your (gpa)(10) + MCAT = NUMBER then you are an adequate candidate academically (your ECs can raise or lower your strength as an applicant). (if you did a post-bach to make up for a poor undergrad gpa use the post-bach gpa times 8 rather than your undergrad gpa times 10).

If your NUMBER is 1-2 points higher, then you are an average candidate. More than 2 points higher, you have a better than 50-50 chance of getting an interview (most schools only interview a small fraction of the applicant pool).

If your NUMBER is 1-5 points lower but you bring some special skills or experience to the table, then you may be suitable for admission and have a shot at getting an interview if the circumstances are right.

If your number is >=79 you've got nothing to worry about. If your number is <50, you do not have a prayer.

>= 79 is nothing to worry about?? Wow. So a 3.9 and a 40. In order to have nothing to worry about you need to be in the top .1 percent of college graduates.

 

[Kikaku21]

If I were engraving my formula in stone (Lord help us!), I'd give engineering majors from top schools an extra ~0.33 on the gpa to make up for the hideous grading in those schools/departments. That is to say that a 3.33 for an engineering student is equal to a 3.66 for someone in a liberal arts program. However, I'd cap this bonus such that one can not have more than a 4.0 gpa (so for an engineer with a gpa of 3.70 the add on would be just 0.3)

After this comment, I may be falling in love with you. (Will this help me get in?)

I have a 4.0 now.