SLU vs IU

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Which one?

  • IU

    Votes: 19 42.2%
  • SLU

    Votes: 26 57.8%

  • Total voters
    45

pakidoc

go stl cardinals!!
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Fellow SDNers, I need your help on this one...
Which one would you choose:

Indiana University (IU)
St. Louis University (SLU)

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Let me tell you a little of what I know about SLU Medical School:
1. I went there for undergrad, and I didn't even bother applying (and yes, I have gotten in at substantially better schools)
2. SLU's medical school has really deteriorated over the decade since SLU sold SLU hospital to Tenet. Since then, the well known academic faculty have left SLU.
3. Board scores have been an issue in the past for the school...a few years ago, they had a number of students that did not pass step I (yikes!)
4. You might find SLU very "clickish", as about 30-35 of your classmates per year will be "med-scholars" from SLU undergrad.
5. SLU hospital has a lot of foreign trained doctors, especially for the general medicine floors (i.e. doctors not trained in the U.S.)...that is very scary to me since I live in STL.

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?myid=3221
 
ohsocrafty22 said:
Let me tell you a little of what I know about SLU Medical School:
1. I went there for undergrad, and I didn't even bother applying (and yes, I have gotten in at substantially better schools)
2. SLU's medical school has really deteriorated over the decade since SLU sold SLU hospital to Tenet. Since then, the well known academic faculty have left SLU.
3. Board scores have been an issue in the past for the school...a few years ago, they had a number of students that did not pass step I (yikes!)
4. You might find SLU very "clickish", as about 30-35 of your classmates per year will be "med-scholars" from SLU undergrad.
5. SLU hospital has a lot of foreign trained doctors, especially for the general medicine floors (i.e. doctors not trained in the U.S.)...that is very scary to me since I live in STL.

oh jeeez i had no idea about this what so ever :eek:
i am pretty much decided on slu!! mainly coz i live in stl
hmm...
anyone else felt this way :confused:

thx for your input, ohsocrafty
 
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On a more pro SLU note, keep in mind that the 2004 SLU matchlist is very impressive for a middle of the pack school. This reflects more on the students than school, but these are students that matriculated in only 4 years ago and there was talk at my interview time how this last years class was scoring better on exams than any other class prior.
 
ohsocrafty22 said:
3. Board scores have been an issue in the past for the school...a few years ago, they had a number of students that did not pass step I (yikes!)
4. You might find SLU very "clickish", as about 30-35 of your classmates per year will be "med-scholars" from SLU undergrad.
5. SLU hospital has a lot of foreign trained doctors, especially for the general medicine floors (i.e. doctors not trained in the U.S.)...that is very scary to me since I live in STL.
3 is definitely true. SLU's average was below the national average in previous years. It was around 78% in 2001. Strangely enough, the number of students scoring in the higher end percentiles increased that same year. I don't know how they're doing on the boards now.

4 is also true. ( :laugh: ) Not all of 'em though! I think the fact that they're not required to take the MCAT might also play a role in the lower board score pass rates.

For 5, do you mean docs that did foreign residencies? I would find that hard to believe. I was a patient at SLU hospital as well as Barnes (I used to live in StL) and the clinicians at both (foreign and US-born) are damn good clinicians. I do know that they have a lot of docs that come from foreign med schools, but these docs trained (residencies and fellowships) in the US. I think that's a very different story. Last I remember, the nuclear medicine head is foreign, but he trained at Hopkins. So that ain't shabby training. I think foreign medical school = bad, is a poor generalization. FMGs make up a significant portion of physicians in the US and play a major role in providing healthcare. The US aggressively sought out foreign physicians during Vietnam and many of these foreign physicians still help US healthcare today. Many are even on the faculty of some of the most prestigious medical institutions in America.

I also heard really bad things about the administration. But I will also say that I know some very down-to-earth, friendly students and the clinical training at SLU is excellent. When I get around to applying (probably in a few years :D ), SLU would be one of my top choices, despite the negatives.

Hey ohsocrafty22, can I ask what year you graduated? Just curious...
 
YzIa said:
On a more pro SLU note, keep in mind that the 2004 SLU matchlist is very impressive for a middle of the pack school. This reflects more on the students than school, but these are students that matriculated in only 4 years ago and there was talk at my interview time how this last years class was scoring better on exams than any other class prior.
I was impressed with the results too.

2000-2004 SLU Match lists: http://medschool.slu.edu/matchlist/
 
Hi,
Thought I'd give you my opinion of SLU as a first year. Yes the boards were a problem in the past but from my limited experience they are preparing us for the boards from day 1. Our exams are clinical vignettes and most of our testbooks are exam review books. Our thrid years did well on the boards, I believe the national fail rate is ~ 4%, our thrid years had ~2 fail rate.
Our school is fairly clickish, there are a good number form the medscholar program but there is also a wide range of places represented, I am from Arizona and there are two other people in my class from Arizona. But I don't think our school is any more clickish then other schools, this from comparing notes with friends that go to schools all over the country.
The one thing that really impressed me when I interviewed with SLU is that they made me feel really wanted. I got accepted to schools that were much better ranked than SLU but can't coming back to it as my choice and overall haven't been disappointed. Our school is fairly small ( I went to a large undergrad) and the professors really go out of their way to make sure we are getting the material. One of our dean's teaches Microbes and Immunology. Another dean teaches our doctoring class. The administration is always looking for our input on how to make things better.
There are lots of ways to get invovled from research to volunteer work. We run a student run clinic every Saturday that is a great way to learn and get involved. If you have any more questions about SLU please feel free to ask.
 
hey sundevil
thanks for your help. i really appreciate it.
im 90% sure ill be attending slu :cool:
 
Regarding Comment #2
I can't say that the medical school school completely deteriorated. That would be an overgeneralization. However, it is true that there were a number of well known academics that had left SLU after the sale of the hospital to Tenet. This is a common trend unfortunately at many schools.

What appears to have happened is a shift from a wide distribution of well known academics to a more focused distribution of very well known experts. More or less, its the same and there are quite a few physicians who are leaders in their field at SLU.

Regarding Comment #3
That was years ago. Recent step 1 scores were phenomenal for this recent third year class. My official understanding notes only 5 people failed. Regardless, that's still a 97% pass rate. Even with the poor class a few years ago, outside of the poor Step 1 performers, the solid upper end of the class traditionally does very well on Step 1.

With regards to Step 2, the scores have been the highest ever 2 years ago and I will go far as to say they still remain at that level.

Regarding Comment #4
I'd say this is true. This is true at many schools but yes, even at SLU. It gets better as you get to 3rd year though because you have to work with many people you otherewise wouldn't have by chance or choice. The cliques are created out of familiarity first year. There's a strong support network that can be formed at SLU. I think the medscholars can seem somewhat cliquish because they really know the environment, other students, the SLU system, city etc well.

Regarding Comment #5
This is true. They have quite a few though even at Wash U/Barnes Hospital too. But alas, yes, there are foreign docs at SLU, perhaps slightly more than Wash U for sure but they are not the majority. They're strong.. some were even academics in their field in their home countries prior to SLU residency. For, example, one guy was one of the top, or the top urologist in his entire country. They can be an asset. If they are weak, they sink and not swim. I've seen the weak ones "flunk" out so to speak. There at many hospitals.

In general though, I see plenty more foreign trained docs in the Midwest. The only place I see just as much, is New York because there are soo many programs there to fill there. Anyhow, a lot of SLU foreign docs go on to fellowships and specialization in their fields. It would be incredible to say they aren't more than qualified. Interns are another story though for any hospital unless you are one of the top hospitals in most categories/specialities. There are quite a few strong specialities at SLU, ie. Geriatrics, Liver...a pioneer of sorts with Cardiothoracic surgery, GI..etc...

Closing Comments
I have to agree with one of the other posters on this thread. SLU does constantly refine their curriculum..almost incessantly. They are never satisfied with it and are always finding ways to improve the quality of their teaching. I knew quite a few people on the curriculum committees and spoken to faculty who literally there dedicated just for that purpose. They are committed to teaching and this is powerful ..and needed when knowing you are paying private tuition. They listen to you and address concerns...example is trying to increase scholarship fundraising or the 80million or so dollars dedicated to a new research building, renovation of existing research facilities to propel the schools reputation and bring in more research dollars.

What they lack is the "wooing" you get at other schools with way more money. They aren't flashy enough (though they have their times), they have high expectation of students which is good, and they more than give you the tools to be a strong clinician and lead by example. I was impressed residency interviewing outside of MIssouri to hear positive comments about SLU grads. I didn't think they were known much outside of the Midwest.

There is a certain "substance over style" that can win over some at SLU. However, the rising cost of medical school education diverts some potentially great applicants and alienates even current students. Nevertheless, in my humble opinion, there is a significant proportion of the class who interviewed at top medical schools (sure Wash U, UCLA, Stanford, etc) and found themself for one reason or another squeezed out and matriculating into SLU. I myself was squeezed out of my "competitive" state school by literally hours (long story). Anyhow, those others that I mentioned can really drive the curve up but it overall raises the bar for others.

Anyhow, good luck. Go where your dollar goes far whether pubic med schools or some scholarship allocation. Most medical schools are strong. SLU I'd say is better than at least half the med schools out there in my humble opinion but if you get accepted to your state school that would appear equivalent, don't split hairs...just do it. The savings are IMMENSE. Just keep an eye on the match lists. That said, if you wind up at SLU, you will get solid training and do have the opportunity to shoot for strong if not top residencies if you work hard. I got my first choice.

good luck,
wyldstyle
4th year SLU med student
personal message me if you got questions.

ohsocrafty22 said:
Let me tell you a little of what I know about SLU Medical School:
1. I went there for undergrad, and I didn't even bother applying (and yes, I have gotten in at substantially better schools)
2. SLU's medical school has really deteriorated over the decade since SLU sold SLU hospital to Tenet. Since then, the well known academic faculty have left SLU.
3. Board scores have been an issue in the past for the school...a few years ago, they had a number of students that did not pass step I (yikes!)
4. You might find SLU very "clickish", as about 30-35 of your classmates per year will be "med-scholars" from SLU undergrad.
5. SLU hospital has a lot of foreign trained doctors, especially for the general medicine floors (i.e. doctors not trained in the U.S.)...that is very scary to me since I live in STL.

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?myid=3221
 
Everyones been bashing SLU for this step 1 BS well here is what ACTUALLY happend : This is from the SLU Curriculum Management Committee , you can see it for yourself at

http://oca.slu.edu/comm/index.phtml?page=april112002&cat=2002minutes

Coordinators || Period Codes || General Info


Curriculum Management Committee
Meeting Minutes
April 11, 2002
8:00 a.m.
Members present:
Drs. Blaskiewicz, Egan, Eissenberg, Flaherty, Furman, Galofré, Hickman, Rausch, Schulze, Smith, Swierkosz, and Westfall; Ms. Bennett-Stewart, Mr. Brainard, and Mr. Kriete, with Dr. Mootz presiding.

Absent:
Drs. Fete, Mengel, Park, Slavin, and Tolbert; Mr. Bauer, Mr. Dieber, Mr. Fesler, Mr. Haas, and Ms. Young.

Staff:
Mrs. Parker, Ms. Price.

The minutes of March 28 were approved as amended.

Announcement
The members recognized the contributions of Ms. Amanda Price in the area of student and program evaluation over the past three years. She has resigned her position for another opportunity outside of academia. Dr. Debra Schindler has been hired as her replacement.

USMLE Step 1 Results
The national results of USMLE Step 1 are now available. Our 22% failure rate was not part of a national phenomenon, as the national failure rate was 10%. The national mean was 215(24), compared with SLU's 209(29). The national mean has been increasing each year to the point that 8 of the failing students would have passed in previous years.

Of those students repeating the examination, 45% passed on the second attempt, compared with a nation passing rate of 64% for second time takers. The lower the score on first attempt, the harder it is for the student to pass on the second attempt. This year, every student who scored below 165 on first attempt failed on the second attempt.

Although an increased number of students failed, the number of students scoring in the upper range of scores increased substantially.

With regard to the score distribution by subject, the NBME cautions that items are designed to be integrated, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to attribute performance difference to individual courses. Dr. Westfall reported that often the designation of items to a particular subject is somewhat arbitrary. As with the standard deviation (SD) of the total scores, the SD for the individual subjects has also increased.

The correlation with USMLE score and class rank was striking. Of the 33 students who failed, 3/4ths were from the bottom of the rank list. In retrospect, class rank was best predictor of students at risk. Dr. Mary Ruh, chair of the ad hoc committee that studied the USMLE results, is invited to the next meeting to discuss the specific recommendations made by that committee. Dr. Mootz pointed out that by the next meeting, we will have the results of the Phase 2 Comprehensive Basic Science Examination taken by all Phase 2 students.

A number of actions have been put into place since January. Phase 2 has been shortened by one week to allow extra time to study, as the NBME's research shows that the stronger scorers have reported an increased number of study hours. Based on class rankings, about 40 at-risk students have been identified. Dr. Rausch has arranged for a guaranteed spot in the review class for these students. Dr. Rausch has also arranged for two diagnostic exams for all students, and 95 students have completed the first exam.

With regard to the at-risk students, Dr. Rausch has counselled them to take the diagnostic exams and to participate in the review class. However, only 16 students have taken the diagnostic test. The Committee on Student Progress and Promotion is hesitant to require such an intervention, and indeed, for this first time, it may be best to see if there is a difference in the USMLE scores for students who do or do not participate.

Improving Written Exams
Dr. Furman presented the findings of Dr. Susan Case. Dr. Case, co-author of the NBME's test item writing book, reviewed a majority of the Phase 1 and Phase 2 examinations from last year. She noted areas of improvement that could easily be made. Some course directors are using item types that the NBME no longer recommends. K-type (multiple-multiple choice), true/false, and matching questions are not considered state-of-art with regard to pencil and paper assessment.

Dr. Eissenberg reported that he has examined the trial version of the databank distributed by Dr. Galofré, and noted that some K questions, no longer used by the USMLE, were present. He cautioned that careful research of the questions should be completed before the purchase of such resources. Dr. Mootz pointed out that in addition to the formatting of questions according to the NBME guidelines, what the questions assess is important. Questions testing high order skills such as analysis and application should be emphasized over factual recall. Dr. Rausch agreed, noting that only 30% of the USMLE questions test recall.

Dr. Galofré has discussed this issue with Dr. Schindler, and has made improving internal examinations a top priority. Dr. Schindler plans to meet with the course directors to review course objectives and assessment methods. She will then analyze the tests, possibly using a rating scale described by the NBME. Dr. Schindler and Dr. Hickman will be presenting workshops for the faculty to improve test item writing. Currently, the staff of Curricular Affairs is exploring software to produce item banks and statistical analysis of examinations, including expanding the answer options.

The problem of faculty not meeting deadlines for submitting questions, and the lack of resources for motivation to change examination practices was discussed. Members agreed that Dr. Galofré would work on producing a draft for a policy on testing, and would report back to the committee at a later date.

LCME Findings
Dr. Galofré reviewed the findings from the LCME accreditation visit. The three major concerns were problems with the library, Information Technology (IT), and a lack of institutional oversight for the fourth year. Of these three concerns, the CMC can directly impact the fourth year most easily. However, Dr. Galofré suggested inviting Dr. Fran Benham, currently in charge of the library, to address the CMC. He met with the IT management, and suggests that the best way to address the problems is to outline a detailed plan to be submitted as part of the School's strategic plan.

Dr. Blaskiewicz and the Phase 3 Committee are working to address the concerns about the fourth year.

Dr. Mootz noted that the School suffered during the LCME's 1994 visit for not responding to concerns expressed in the 1986 visit. He stated that even if the library and IT are not under the purview of the CMC, noncompliance in these areas would affect the next LCME report. Dr. Swierkosz noted problems with the library's Advisory Committee, and mentioned that the library is currently being run with little input from faculty and staff.

Dr. Galofré also reviewed the strengths of the MD Program as documented by the LCME. The site team was so impressed with the objectives matrix, that one member requested a copy to be sent to Harvard. Dr. Galofré acknowledged the work of Dr. Mootz in preparing this document.

Another strength mentioned was the faculty and their dedication and commitment to teaching. The curriculum governance was also praised as an appropriately organized mechanism for delivering an effective coherent and coordinated curriculum. This finding is important because during the last full visit of the LCME, the School was found to be non-compliant with acceptable practices in curriculum governance. Dr. Galofré noted that the LCME recently refused to accredit a new school of medicine in Florida because of the lack of a centralized governance system.

The document also praised the organization of the Patient, Physician, and Society courses, and noted an improvement over the lack of organization of the former "orphan courses."

In summary, the LCME found that the faculty can be "justifiably proud" of the curriculum, and noted that the high failure rate on the USMLE Step 1 should not be considered a failure of the curriculum.
Meeting adjourned at 10:00 am.

Minutes submitted by:

Gail E. Furman, PhD
Executive Secretary

So there it is, it was not a failure of the curriculum or the school. The bottom line is that in medical school YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOU FUC*ING ASS AND STUDY PEOPLE !!!!!!!. Simply going to class and doing the minimum wont cut it. It would seem that a few underachievers took step 1 without proper preparation. LCME basically said that SLU's efforts to prepare the students were more than adequate. The failure rate was due to a class with more than 1 lazy piece of cr*ap muddling their way through the curriculum. SLU is an excellent school and if you all cant see that then cash in your acceptance because you’re not wanted anyway. Screw you !!!! :mad:
 
I interviewed at SLU this past Monday and was actually impressed. The student quoted a 2004 board pass rate of 97% and really stressed the availability of the faculty, deans, and counselor/mentor system (spiritual and nonsectarian).

Their recent match list is quite good, and the administration seemed open and self-reflective regarding whether it is meeting the needs of the students (moreso than some other schools I had been to).

Obviously, the immediate vicinity isn't the most beautiful area, and SLU will always be 2nd place behind Wash U. according to the academics, but the school really had some high points in my opinion--one of which seemed to be genuine concern for the academic success/well-being of the students.

Someone please enlighten me if I'm wrong, before I wind up there... ;)
 
P.S.

Tenet has their issues no matter what kind of health care facility they attempt to manage; they are more concerned with clinical "hospital-side" money management than research dollars and advancing medicine for the sake of advancing academic medicine. It makes sense that they would pick a few iconic medical experts and choose to pay their salaries while systematically weeding out well known academics--their focus is on convincing the public to come to the facility for clinical care, not on providing a quality environment for researchers/students in clinical training. I would imagine that in the Great Eye of Tenet, students make the task of running a tight clinical money-making ship harder.

Just a thought.
 
rpkall said:
I interviewed at SLU this past Monday and was actually impressed. The student quoted a 2004 board pass rate of 97% and really stressed the availability of the faculty, deans, and counselor/mentor system (spiritual and nonsectarian).

Their recent match list is quite good, and the administration seemed open and self-reflective regarding whether it is meeting the needs of the students (moreso than some other schools I had been to).

Obviously, the immediate vicinity isn't the most beautiful area, and SLU will always be 2nd place behind Wash U. according to the academics, but the school really had some high points in my opinion--one of which seemed to be genuine concern for the academic success/well-being of the students.

Someone please enlighten me if I'm wrong, before I wind up there... ;)


Yeah, I was impressed too. Infact, im 99% sure im goin to slu this fall.
 
Good for you. I'm sure interviews are probably ending soon or done for most places, but make sure you pay attention to how a typical day is and if there is time to study. I have friends and MD and DO schools. Some are very unhappy where the majority of their days are literally filled with lecture from early morning to late afternoon if not evening. Traditionally, this was how med schools were. But I think the whole hybrid traditional and PBL cut this down alot. Most allopathic schools are some form of this hybrid.

For SLU, I remember for the first year, you go through anatomy in 10-weeks and its not easy..no joke man. But afterwards, biochem/cell bio is a breeze. Plenty of time to study...actually, for me too much. Immuno/micro gets pretty tough afterwards but still, a fair amount of time to study and a curriculum that's probably more streamlined than when my class went through. On top of this, I think they still have an elective 2nd semester, which can be clinically based or academic and the typical Patient, Physician, and Society class.
 
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