Smell Blood? DNPs and PAs

[FutureDoc4]

I am actually a HUGE fan of PAs (not usually DNPs), so you can get my bias out of the way to begin with.

But, with healthcare reform, I feel as though mid-levels can sense we are weak and wounded as a group (physicians and physicians in training). The AMA is weak. It's like we are a wounded animal and mid-levels are just coming by to finish us off.

Where are our physician leaders? When am I going to get an email to come to a special meeting of the AMA to deal with all these things (or at least hear about it), rather than online "tough talk" that I have seen all around these forums.

I am hoping to wake up tomorrow and see on CNN the AMA has already filed lawsuits about the new "derm" program in Florida for DNPs and there nationwide independent practice and for PAs to retain their current name (sorry guys, I do think you're great on the floors but I don't agree with the name change).

FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY, THIS IS A MEDICAL STUDENT ISSUE. I DON'T WANT TO SEE SOME OVER ZEALOUS MODERATOR MOVE IT TO THE HEALTHTOPICS FORUM (BECAUSE THEY DONT AGREE WITH MY VIEW).

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[kstreet]

QFT, bump for the cause.

 

[deleted87716]

FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY, THIS IS A MEDICAL STUDENT ISSUE. I DON'T WANT TO SEE SOME OVER ZEALOUS MODERATOR MOVE IT TO THE HEALTHTOPICS FORUM

You didn't really think that would happen, did you?

 

[FutureDoc4]

I knew there was no hope.

 

[mwppa]

I've actually seen threads on other forums where Surgical Techs believe they should be able to pop out gall bladders...how scary is that?

I doubt PAs as a whole plan to usurp docs. I don't dislike docs as long as they recognize our role in healthcare and stop calling us "mid-levels." It's just demeaning and non-descriptive. The Physician Associate thing is mainly due to nostalgia, as that was our professions father's name for us (an MD, mind you.) If he was an MD and didn't mind, why should you?

I don't think the Associate name is really that flattering and I would prefer it not be changed if that's the best they can do. But I guess some people grab on to any victory they can. I would find it a much more beneficial undertaking for our profession to fight to have upward mobility like the nursing field has. Not by "making ourselves doctors through lobbying" but through starting bridge programs that add additional course work to allow us to pursue advanced medical training and residencies to become doctors if we should choose. I think nursing is a more organized and fair field in this regard. CNAs can add their one and only class toward LVN. LVNs (or LPN) can bridge to RN. RN toward NP, etc.

 

[FutureDoc4]

I think PAs should be able to have bridging programs (even NPs) with the following stipulations:

Graduate level coursework in pathology, pathophysiology, pharmacology, and microbiology (this would be minimum, might have to add more depending on what your previous program was like)(the basis of all understanding of medicine).

Take Steps 1-3

If you want to specialize, then take that SAME board exams as physicians and complete a residency.

If people want the same rights as physicians in scope of practice, they should have to prove the same knowledge base.

Aka, Experience doesn't make up for a theoretical understanding of the field of medicine.

You'll notice that not much of your PA coursework will be allowed to count toward your MD if you go this route. There is a reason for this (I know PAs and RNs in my medical school class).


Basically, I am saying if you want to be a physician. Go to medical school.

 

[Starpower]

I think PAs should be able to have bridging programs (even NPs) with the following stipulations:

Graduate level coursework in pathology, pathophysiology, pharmacology, and microbiology (this would be minimum, might have to add more depending on what your previous program was like)(the basis of all understanding of medicine).

Take Steps 1-3

If you want to specialize, then take that SAME board exams as physicians and complete a residency.

First point ... do you think that PA school is, what, teddy time?

Second, I agree with you about the Step testing, I think they should take the USMLE, and agree also about the residency. But isn't there a different thread about bridge programs PA to MD?

The fact remains that the name is demeaning and inaccurate. Anyone who has experience working around Docs and PAs understands the term Physician Associate is largely more appropriate.

And don't think that PAs don't have to fight at this time, and it's not the Docs that they're up against. The NPs are trying to put PAs back and behind, when it's the PAs who are trained in the medical model, not the NPs.

 

[FutureDoc4]

First point ... do you think that PA school is, what, teddy time?

Second, I agree with you about the Step testing, I think they should take the USMLE, and agree also about the residency. But isn't there a different thread about bridge programs PA to MD?

The fact remains that the name is demeaning and inaccurate. Anyone who has experience working around Docs and PAs understands the term Physician Associate is largely more appropriate.

And don't think that PAs don't have to fight at this time, and it's not the Docs that they're up against. The NPs are trying to put PAs back and behind, when it's the PAs who are trained in the medical model, not the NPs.

This is very true. I don't understand why you take any guff from nurses. You (PAs) are definitely trained in the medical model... while nurses are trained to be.... .NURSES.

And No, I understand you all work very hard in PA school and I realize its not easy (none of these paths are... *cough*cough except online DNP programs*), but I think you gotta make sure everyone is up to snuff if people are going to be practicing independently

 

[Starpower]

[/B]
but I think you gotta make sure everyone is up to snuff if people are going to be practicing independently

I agree completely. Anything else would be ridiculous. But please know that in all my discussions with PA-C 'colleagues' (I'm still in rotations), I've never heard anyone saying anything about autonomy.

Just be careful that you don't turn this into a 'vaccines cause autism' wave ...

 

[southerndoc]

I'm ok with the name change of PA's. The PA's I work with are hardworking and have earned the associate name change.

When we use the term mid-level, we do not mean for it to be demeaning.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I agree that something has to be done. People are definitely starting to take notice, contact the appropriate people, etc. However, I agree that it's really not the desired response, and it would be good to see big dogs taking no-joke action immediately. I guess the only thing we can ask is how does this happen??? I don't know if any of us here really have much experience yielding lobbying power or getting in touch with news agencies, etc??? I'm 100% willing to help, and I know lots of people feel the same way, I just don't know where to begin besides the emailing, phone calls, etc that's going on as we speak.

 

[Starpower]

I agree that something has to be done.

Well, whatever you do ... can you also agree that something needs to be done for cancer, and vote in this contest?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=720191

 

[AegriSomnia]

Personally I don't care what people call me as long as I have a good career and make decent money. Anesthesiologist Assistant or Physician Assistant is OK with me and I'm OK with it because that it was the profession is called when I was trying to get in. People place to much emphasis on names.

 

[cpants]

I've actually seen threads on other forums where Surgical Techs believe they should be able to pop out gall bladders...how scary is that?

I doubt PAs as a whole plan to usurp docs. I don't dislike docs as long as they recognize our role in healthcare and stop calling us "mid-levels." It's just demeaning and non-descriptive. The Physician Associate thing is mainly due to nostalgia, as that was our professions father's name for us (an MD, mind you.) If he was an MD and didn't mind, why should you?

This sentence is contradictory. You want docs to recognize your role, but not to call you "mid-levels", which is a perfect recognition of your role. Your training and scope is below the level of a physician, above the level of nurses and other ancillary fields. The term is not demeaning and is perfectly descriptive.

 

[MOHS_01]

This sentence is contradictory. You want docs to recognize your role, but not to call you "mid-levels", which is a perfect recognition of your role. Your training and scope is below the level of a physician, above the level of nurses and other ancillary fields. The term is not demeaning and is perfectly descriptive.

Ditto. If you want to be a "doctor", go to medical school. If you want to be a "nurse", go to nursing school. If you want to be something in between, become a DNP/PA/NP/WTF ever label you want to put on it next year BS. It's time to take the Rock's advice to know your role.....

.... and I've been a big fan / advocate of mid-levels over the years.

 

[exPCM]

Personally I don't care what people call me as long as I have a good career and make decent money. Anesthesiologist Assistant or Physician Assistant is OK with me and I'm OK with it because that it was the profession is called when I was trying to get in. People place to much emphasis on names.

If you wanted to fly an airplane you should have gone to pilot school and not stewardess school.

 

[JaggerPlate]

If you wanted to fly an airplane you should have gone to pilot school and not stewardess school.

 

[AegriSomnia]

If you wanted to fly an airplane you should have gone to pilot school and not stewardess school.

Did I say I wanted to be a physician? Because I don't. Actually, I was agreeing with what some of the people on here were saying about changing the name to physician associate. No need to be rude.

 

[Starpower]

The Attending I worked with yesterday is 100% for the name change ... and he only takes PA students for rotations, he doesn't want med students. Go figure!

 

[J1515]

The Attending I worked with yesterday is 100% for the name change ... and he only takes PA students for rotations, he doesn't want med students. Go figure!

Anecdotes are fun, aren't they?

 

[sideways]

The Attending I worked with yesterday is 100% for the name change ... and he only takes PA students for rotations, he doesn't want med students. Go figure!

He's probably flirting with the initial stages of senility and doesn't want anyone to catch on.

 

[badasshairday]

No need for the piss match between med students and PA students. Keep in mind the common threat, the big bad DNP....

BTW, PA's rock!

 

[exPCM]

Did I say I wanted to be a physician? Because I don't. Actually, I was agreeing with what some of the people on here were saying about changing the name to physician associate. No need to be rude.

Okay. I apologize. I misinterpreted your intent.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Why oh why did I accumulate mountains of debt to get my M.D., when I could have gotten my DNP for a fraction of the cost... not to mention a fraction of the effort, a fraction of the work ethic, and a fraction of the intelligence required.

And no Step 3! And I could have worked part-time all throughout my schooling like most NP students! And no residency! Heck... I would have had to have hardly any clinic experience at all! And I could have taken the entire thing online!

And I would have been the equal of an MD/DO!

Ah well... what a sucker I was.

 

[AegriSomnia]

Okay. I apologize. I misinterpreted your intent.

No prob. It happens

 

[cadoobie]

No need for the piss match between med students and PA students. Keep in mind the common threat, the big bad DNP....

BTW, PA's rock!

I totally agree with this statement and yes PA's rock LOL (how unbias of me huh?)

 

[cpants]

Why oh why did I accumulate mountains of debt to get my M.D., when I could have gotten my DNP for a fraction of the cost... not to mention a fraction of the effort, a fraction of the work ethic, and a fraction of the intelligence required.

And no Step 3! And I could have worked part-time all throughout my schooling like most NP students! And no residency! Heck... I would have had to have hardly any clinic experience at all! And I could have taken the entire thing online!

And I would have been the equal of an MD/DO!

Ah well... what a sucker I was.

This is what will happen to primary care. MD's are not going to go into a field that they could have reached through nursing school if they can in any way avoid it. Family med will be stocked completely with NP's and foreign grads if pay parity is achieved.

 

[glade]

I've actually seen threads on other forums where Surgical Techs believe they should be able to pop out gall bladders...how scary is that?

Those statements essentially prove that they're so stupid that they shouldn't be allowed to do so.