SMP or Caribbean?

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amkakar

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My dilemma is choosing if I should take out an extra year and do a SMP and possibly take the MCAT twice or just go to the Caribbean (St.George, or Ross). What would be the advantages/disadvantages to both of these options and how should I approach this problem while making my decision?

Thanks!
 
My dilemma is choosing if I should take out an extra year and do a SMP and possibly take the MCAT twice or just go to the Caribbean (St.George, or Ross). What would be the advantages/disadvantages to both of these options and how should I approach this problem while making my decision?

Thanks!

What are your stats?
 
yes amkakar what are your stats! i was dealing with this exact issue last year (sitting on acceptance at SGU + multiple SMPs) and chose SMP, PM me if you want!!
 
Not knocking the Carribbean schools as I have a few friends down there...but I would never go. Regardless of your stats you can turn that around and get into a US med school if you want it bad enough. Hell Ill put it right out there: I had a 2.45 undergrad GPA with an even lower science GPA. I graduated college, grew up a bit, rocked my masters and MCAT and have been accepted to a good US medical school. So therefore I vote SMP. There is no shame in taking time off between college and med school. I learned so much about myself and my field in the FIVE years since I graduated undergrad....and judging by a lot of posts on here plenty of people could use a few years to grow up before they enter medical school
 
Advantage:
Get to study on the beach

Disadvantage:
Highly unlikely that you will match in a competitive residency (or possibly ANY residency, depending on if you bombed the steps)
 
Wow, I'm fairly surprised to hear everyone is so down on the SGU/Ross-as-Plan-B thing. It's my understanding that those 2 schools (and only those 2) are really gaining in reputation due to USMLE scores and residency matches. Even to the point that some people have posted on the forums that they had made SGU their first choice med school.

Don't get me wrong, I'd take a US seat any day over the caribbean...but if you have what it takes to complete the curriculum of a US school then you have what it takes to pass the boards and get a decent residency at Ross/SGU.

If every US school says no 🙁 then I'm packing my bags (and umbrellas) and heading to SGU. One of the most common residency matches is in IM which leads to Cardiology (which is where I want to go)....no hesitations or reservations whatsoever 🙂
 
Science GPA 2.73
Non-Science 3. 26
Cumulative: 3.03

Those are my stats. I have around 2 years hospital ER volunteer experience. 2 years of mentoring children and working around 20+ hours to help support my family since parents didn't work. Also had myself and father diagnosed with diseases along the process so maintaining my health since I have type 2 diabetes and father has Parkinson's.
 
Wow, I'm fairly surprised to hear everyone is so down on the SGU/Ross-as-Plan-B thing. It's my understanding that those 2 schools (and only those 2) are really gaining in reputation due to USMLE scores and residency matches. Even to the point that some people have posted on the forums that they had made SGU their first choice med school.

Don't get me wrong, I'd take a US seat any day over the caribbean...but if you have what it takes to complete the curriculum of a US school then you have what it takes to pass the boards and get a decent residency at Ross/SGU.

If every US school says no 🙁 then I'm packing my bags (and umbrellas) and heading to SGU. One of the most common residency matches is in IM which leads to Cardiology (which is where I want to go)....no hesitations or reservations whatsoever 🙂

http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-u...606-questions-about-usmle-residency-cost.html

http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-university-school-medicine/184753-residencies-2014-a.html
 
Dont go offshore unless you have tried everything to get into the US.

Hence, SMP!!!

Why does everyone dislike the Caribbean? They speak negatively about it because of the residency programs, however I have heard inspiring news about them. Could you please elaborate more about the negatives of the Caribbean?
 
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I've never been to been to med school so I'm certainly not an authority on this, but I'll offer what I've read. For Ross, I've heard that you absolutely must have the ability to learn the material yourself (self-study) because the student body is enormous (they are a for-profit school) and you cannot rely on the professors to sit down with you one on one to explain. The other thing I've read about Ross is that for you clinical years they aren't very helpful...some students have not been able to register for required clinical rotations and were forced to take an extra semester to satisfy the requirements.

For SGU it seems that the students there are much happier. You spend 16 or 18 months on the island and then you're back in the states after that. SGU also has exclusive contracts with NY hospitals which almost guarantees you a residency in one speciality or another, but if you are not a US citizen then I'm not sure what your chances are.

As I stated before, I have no hesitation with going to SGU if I can't acquire a US seat. Whether I go to SGU or to Vanderbilt, I'll still be a cardiologist...I'll just have to work harder at SGU.
 
Why does everyone dislike the Caribbean? They speak negatively about it because of the residency programs, however I have heard inspiring news about them. Could you please elaborate more about the negatives of the Caribbean?

Harder to do your 3/4 yrs....get a residency, etc.

First two yrs are pretty much the same....from what I hear.
 
Only go to Caribbean if you're planning on going into IM/FM/Peds.
 
Whether I go to SGU or to Vanderbilt, I'll still be a cardiologist

You mean you'll still be clawing your way to a cardiology fellowship. Which will probably be harder to get with a degree from SGU.

If your sole goal is to be a doctor, then SGU sounds like a good choice. If your sole goal is to become a cardiologist, then SGU doesn't seem like the best option. Do an SMP, which will allow you to excel in your first year classes once accepted. This will help you land an IM residency at a top school, which will improve you chances for a cardiology fellowship later.
 
I have to disagree with that...your USMLE scores, your med school gpa, and the letters of recommendation you secure during your clinical rotations are what will get you your residency. I know that for myself I'm going to bust my butt to secure quality letters and get a good board score, so I'm not worried.....but again, I would rather go to a US school.
 
In the grand scheme of things, an additional year at an SMP isn't going to drastically change your timeline.

I didn't get in to school my first application cycle, did Georgetown's SMP (did decently, by no means phenomenally), got into my top 3 schools on my next application cycle, and got a 4.0 my ms1 year.

Theres something to be said for seeing the material twice. Regardless of your background, it's unlikely that you've been expected to digest materially as rapidly as you will have to in med school. An SMP year kind of a gift.

I vote SMP!
 
I have to disagree with that...your USMLE scores, your med school gpa, and the letters of recommendation you secure during your clinical rotations are what will get you your residency. I know that for myself I'm going to bust my butt to secure quality letters and get a good board score, so I'm not worried.....but again, I would rather go to a US school.
you are wrong.
 
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Have you not taken the MCAT yet? because if you want to stay in the US (MD or DO) you're going to have to get a great score. Your gpa is very low, even by DO standards. Even an SMP will only slightly raise your gpa, unfortunately. The way I see it, if you really want to be a physician, do an SMP, do your absolute no-holes-barred best on the MCAT, shadow a doctor, beef up those EC's, and apply when you are ready to stateside programs. Only if you get rejected a round or two would I consider the caribbean. My 2₵, Good luck!!
 
In the grand scheme of things, an additional year at an SMP isn't going to drastically change your timeline.

I didn't get in to school my first application cycle, did Georgetown's SMP (did decently, by no means phenomenally), got into my top 3 schools on my next application cycle, and got a 4.0 my ms1 year.

Theres something to be said for seeing the material twice. Regardless of your background, it's unlikely that you've been expected to digest materially as rapidly as you will have to in med school. An SMP year kind of a gift.

I vote SMP!

Are there any SMP programs in California? Or are the postbacs offered by the UCs different than the Georgetown SMP?
 
do your absolute no-holes-barred best on the MCAT,

Just a friendly correction, it's no-holds-barred...I like your way, but is sounds like a porno title 😱 (actually I think it is)
 
Have you not taken the MCAT yet? because if you want to stay in the US (MD or DO) you're going to have to get a great score. Your gpa is very low, even by DO standards. Even an SMP will only slightly raise your gpa, unfortunately. The way I see it, if you really want to be a physician, do an SMP, do your absolute no-holes-barred best on the MCAT, shadow a doctor, beef up those EC's, and apply when you are ready to stateside programs. Only if you get rejected a round or two would I consider the caribbean. My 2₵, Good luck!!

This part. I had a 2.45 undergrad and a full masters degree over 70 credits of almost all As only got me up to a 2.8X. Ended up getting in to my first choice...but still it sucks GPAs are so hard to repair!!!
 
you are wrong.

Wrong? How so? What is it that you think are the criteria for a residency position? I can't think of any others, but I'm always willing to learn.
 
Wrong? How so? What is it that you think are the criteria for a residency position? I can't think of any others, but I'm always willing to learn.
what school you come from would be a big one.
 
what school you come from would be a big one.

The med school you come from factors into it about as much as what undergraduate university you attended. If your board scores are low and your letters of recommendation are weak--or worse, negative--then it doesn't matter if you're from Harvard.

You do realize that you still have to interview with the PD and submit a resume and CV--just like if you were applying to a job, right?
 
I'm from New York. I've worked at a few hospitals and know a lot of physicians, medical students and fellows. Most of them are perfectly happy with foreign grads. Half of the staff at these hospitals are foreign.

They even have some interest in recruiting these kids b/c all of them do their years 3/4 in Brooklyn hospitals; they are knee deep in the experience and have a lot of skills to excel. My own research doc has mentioned that I should apply to a Carib school because he likes those students. He runs a fellowship and half those fellows are from all over the world.

Perhaps I am biased because in New York, we tend to have a very diverse hospital setting. Do not expect to get a residency or fellowship at a Ivy league or top tier place. If you do very well in residency, you could get your fellowship at a great place... I just think there are too many steps ahead of medical school that end up mattering more or less on the step prior.

This doc also said after fellowship you could get a research gig at the NIH, or find yourself working for a prestigious hospital anywhere you like, because on the end of the day your training matters. Training. Thats the lifeblood of the real medical game, nobody wants to admit it. Kids who train in the warzone of brooklyn hospitals for their residency are better, period. Not many kids are willing to go there, but foreign schools put you there. Advantage Carib students.

Oh and Bleargh, you have not answered the question - your reply is more subjective than the rationale by the earlier post. Even if the school name mattered a lot, how come the other factors like letters, grades, USMLE dont equal, if not overshadow that point?

Call me a fool but the kids who score high on the USMLE and have good grades and letters can get good residencies. The list from the last few years proves that point, but I don't have any reason to suspect there is no bias.
 
I'm from New York. I've worked at a few hospitals and know a lot of physicians, medical students and fellows. Most of them are perfectly happy with foreign grads. Half of the staff at these hospitals are foreign.

They even have some interest in recruiting these kids b/c all of them do their years 3/4 in Brooklyn hospitals; they are knee deep in the experience and have a lot of skills to excel. My own research doc has mentioned that I should apply to a Carib school because he likes those students. He runs a fellowship and half those fellows are from all over the world.

Perhaps I am biased because in New York, we tend to have a very diverse hospital setting. Do not expect to get a residency or fellowship at a Ivy league or top tier place. If you do very well in residency, you could get your fellowship at a great place... I just think there are too many steps ahead of medical school that end up mattering more or less on the step prior.

This doc also said after fellowship you could get a research gig at the NIH, or find yourself working for a prestigious hospital anywhere you like, because on the end of the day your training matters. Training. Thats the lifeblood of the real medical game, nobody wants to admit it. Kids who train in the warzone of brooklyn hospitals for their residency are better, period. Not many kids are willing to go there, but foreign schools put you there. Advantage Carib students.

Oh and Bleargh, you have not answered the question - your reply is more subjective than the rationale by the earlier post. Even if the school name mattered a lot, how come the other factors like letters, grades, USMLE dont equal, if not overshadow that point?

Call me a fool but the kids who score high on the USMLE and have good grades and letters can get good residencies. The list from the last few years proves that point, but I don't have any reason to suspect there is no bias.

US Medical School will get you in better programs than Caribbean Medical Schools, Bottom Line. Sure, a Foreign Grad may get lucky, a residency in the US; however, a US Grad has more options. Of course, USMLE scores and grades matter; however, not only do US Graduates tend to do better on the USMLE's, even those with lower scores than Foreign Graduates are given preference.
 
Truth.

I also think people are deluded about residency in general. The biggest argument I read is 'you wont match a competitive residency' when there is about a 2% acceptance rate for radiology to begin with. Its going to be hard as hell no matter who you are. And since its a small number, try to add up all the 'competitive' residencies and youll see how insignificant this is. Unless you are stubborn and have this messiah-like dedication to being an opthomologist... I don't know what to tell ya.

There are currently more residency slots than there are graduating medical students total - except it appears the same 25/75 ratio happens. Everyone wants to get into one of those top 25% programs, when 75% are just left out of the equation. Family medicine, internal medicine, emergency medicine and pediatrics are pretty much the largest group of physicians - you will find yourself a home if you are flexible.

I just don't like the idea of waiting an extra year to prove what? That I can score 3 points higher on the MCAT? Get a 3.6 GPA vs a 3.4? This stuff will be irrelevant come day 2 of medical school. Try to imagine the look on my parents' face when they hear this kind of rationale (they are all foreign med grads). They 'get it' intuitively but we have complicated things beyond reason.

I wish everyone got an MD acceptance in the USA provided decent stats and personal character. The truth is, its impossible to take em all. Residency will be tough but I would rather just get this started, instead of going to a SMP and doing the app cycle again.
 
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I am planning to take my MCAT this May however I only want to take it once and preform upper 30's on which I hope will show medical schools that I am capable of handling the rigorous courses of medical school. However my question is this, is there any point after applying to take science classes for the science GPA or upon completing the application will GPA be set in stone?
 
Truth.

I also think people are deluded about residency in general. The biggest argument I read is 'you wont match a competitive residency' when there is about a 2% acceptance rate for radiology to begin with. Its going to be hard as hell no matter who you are. And since its a small number, try to add up all the 'competitive' residencies and youll see how insignificant this is. Unless you are stubborn and have this messiah-like dedication to being an opthomologist... I don't know what to tell ya.

Uh, no there isn't. The match percentage of US medical students into radiology is much, much more than 2%; same for other competitive specialties. Going to a US medical school further increases this percentage.
http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

To the OP, getting a cardiology fellowship is no slam-dunk in itself, even for excellent students/residents with US MDs. The fellowship match is very dependent on who you know and were you do your residency, not so much on board scores. Doing an IM residency at a good university program puts you at an advantage to obtain these competitive fellowships. Take a look at the SGU match lists and you'll see that their students match into mediocre IM programs, at best.
 
Have you not taken the MCAT yet? because if you want to stay in the US (MD or DO) you're going to have to get a great score. Your gpa is very low, even by DO standards. Even an SMP will only slightly raise your gpa, unfortunately. The way I see it, if you really want to be a physician, do an SMP, do your absolute no-holes-barred best on the MCAT, shadow a doctor, beef up those EC's, and apply when you are ready to stateside programs. Only if you get rejected a round or two would I consider the caribbean. My 2₵, Good luck!!

My impression is that an SMP is not really about raising the numerical GPA, it's about doing well in medical school classes to prove that one can handle the material, especially if there's some time between undergrad and the SMP.
 
I realize I did not mean it was 2% acceptance but rather, 2% of all residencies are radiology. Its still competitive for American students. But we should all be aware of what we want in our career before making this choice. Plenty of people do SMPs and do fine, others dont... and the same with Carib schools.
 
They even have some interest in recruiting these kids b/c all of them do their years 3/4 in Brooklyn hospitals; they are knee deep in the experience and have a lot of skills to excel. My own research doc has mentioned that I should apply to a Carib school because he likes those students. He runs a fellowship and half those fellows are from all over the world.

That's b/c most of those small brooklyn programs can't fill with AMGs; they recruit from the carib b/c that's their best alternative

Call me a fool but the kids who score high on the USMLE and have good grades and letters can get good residencies. The list from the last few years proves that point, but I don't have any reason to suspect there is no bias.

Ok...you're a fool 😉

Seriously though...you are in so much better shape coming from an american med school; the caribbean should absolutely be a last option; ESPECIALLY given that the US schools are increasing the number of students they take, meaning that by the time all you pre-meds get to fourth year it will be even harder for an IMG to get a residency slot due to the increased competition.
 
I just don't like the idea of waiting an extra year to prove what? That I can score 3 points higher on the MCAT? Get a 3.6 GPA vs a 3.4? This stuff will be irrelevant come day 2 of medical school.

My thoughts exactly!

Has anyone seen the latest residency matches at Ross?
http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/documents/2008ResidencyList.pdf

Anesthesiology, Ortho, Peds, Rad, Surgery....and this is from just one class.

I don't think anyone here is doubting that a US school is better; that's a given. I think what is being said is that if you are not accepted, a caribbean seat is an excellent alternative--and it certainly is my Plan-B. I'm applying to SGU/Ross in January if I don't get a US seat.
 
Are there any SMP programs in California? Or are the postbacs offered by the UCs different than the Georgetown SMP?

I can't speak to the UC post bac programs, but the Georgetown program is about 50% MS1 classes (physically with the MS1s, being graded according the the MS1 grade distribution) and 50% grad school classes. If you can hover around the average in the med classes and do well in the grad classes (which is what I did), you're basically demonstrating to the adcoms that you can handle the MS1 workload just as well as the average MS1 at your program. It's not so much about raising your GPA (which would obviously help), but it's about demonstrating your ability to "hack it" real time.

When I was applying to SMPs, my premed advisor recommended that I do a program that had been around for a long time at a well known school. She was of the opinion that Georgetown had the best program of its kind. Georgetown has a great med program, and the SMP program has been around long enough that the adcoms know what doing well in it indicates about an applicant's potential.
 
Just a friendly correction, it's no-holds-barred...I like your way, but is sounds like a porno title 😱 (actually I think it is)


:laugh::laugh::laugh:

much appreciated, thats really funny. And I'm sure that title has been used.
 
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