SMP to MD/PhD

[Leefa]

Hi all,

Some background: I am currently applying to BU MAMS, Tufts MBS, Loyola MSMP, and a couple of other SMP programs. I am also applying to two more research-oriented programs at Mount Sinai and Northwestern, but I am less competitive for these programs. I believe my applications are nonetheless strong.

Since undergrad, I've developed a passion for neuroscience, specifically as it applies to the discipline of psychiatry. In an ideal world, I'd have noticed this while in undergrad and done the requisite work to pursue an MD/PhD. I am 25 now and still wish to pursue an MD. Regardless of a PhD, I would like to eventually undertake translational research with clinical applications in psychiatry.

I appreciate the metrics of admission to MD/PhD programs, but I still want to at least attempt a pursuit of this track. Of relevance to this pursuit, I have about two years of laboratory work under my belt, approx. 9 months of which is research experience. No publication authorship. My MCAT is probably high enough to get me into an SMP but not into an MD/PhD program, so I plan on retaking post SMP to aim for a ~95th %ile score. Once (and if) admitted to an SMP, I plan on immediately figuring out how I can get into a lab, and how much time I can spend there while still doing very well in the SMP. It's likely that I will only be able to do significant research after the first [academically-intensive] year of the program.

According to this paper, of the 561 students admitted to Boston University School of Medicine after attending BU MAMS, 39 have been admitted to the BU MD/PhD program. Obviously, the standard for admittance to MD/PhD has changed since 1986, and likely since 2009 as well, but this tells me it is nonetheless possible. In all likelihood, these students had significant research experience with publications. I hope to achieve this at least in my second year at an SMP program.

Is there anything obvious that I can do in the next two years to increase my chances of being admitted to an MD/PhD program? Do you have any anecdotal evidence or examples to give me some hope? Can any current or former SMP students weigh in on this?

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[DrMidlife]

An SMP is no place to figure out if you can get A's in hard science. You need to prove that before you try med school classes. And it's completely out of the question to try to get research done during an SMP. You need to assume that you'd fail at both instead of succeeding at one.

If you want an academic research career, a much better path for you from a 3.01 and no pubs is:
1. 2nd bachelors in neuroscience or similar with a 3.7+ and letters
2. rigorous 2+ year thesis masters in neuroscience or similar with outstanding grades and letters
3. pubs

I'm really happy to see the pub on BUMAMS. All the SMPs that want to be taken seriously should be doing this. But note that there's no specific data on the stats of those BUMAMS grads who went on to MD/PhD programs. There are a large number of BUMAMS students who come in with really good numbers, because New England is generally as difficult as California in terms of regional med school acceptance, so you'll see Boston locals with 3.6/34 who will do additional schooling such as BUMAMS to improve their chances at good Boston schools. The data you would need to make a confident decision that BUMAMS is the right program for you is the number of BUMAMS grads with your stats who went on to MD/PhD and how long it took them to get that MD/PhD acceptance after completing BUMAMS. That data will not be made available to you. I suggest the above more conservative path if you want to make a confident decision.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Leefa]

I already know that I can get A's in hard science classes - at least the ones in undergrad. I am not here to tell the story of past performance, but suffice to say that I am confident in my ability to do well in an SMP. Granted, I agree with you Dr. Midlife in that I must assume that I would be best off assuming that I'd fail at both if attempted simultaneously instead of succeeding at one.

That being said, MAMS students are given up to one year to do research. Even if I do not matriculate to medical school as an MSTP student, I've read that it is possible to apply after your first year. The knowledge that I lack in this regard is where exactly can I fit in more research experience? Do first year medical students do research?

If I were, hypothetically, accepted to and do well in one of the two more competitive (and research-intensive) programs that I mentioned in my first post, would my uGPA alone stand in my way of pursuing an MD/PhD? These two would arguably fit the description you provided for a rigorous thesis-based program, as they are thesis granting and can take up to two years. Furthermore, research is emphasized to the same extent that coursework is in these programs. They both specifically mention bolstering grades for pursuit of an MD/PhD.

To address the inflated stats of New England-area med school hopefuls, I don't necessarily care as much about seeking a degree from a prestigious NE school (or for that matter UCSF or similar west-coast schools). I would love to return to my home state of Iowa if possible, in fact. As you pointed out, I was citing BU matriculants simply because I only had that data available; I'm aware that I can't necessarily extrapolate. I'm trying to make due with what I have, and I too would love to see more analysis from SMP programs.

 

[DrMidlife]

I already know that I can get A's in hard science classes - at least the ones in undergrad.

If that's true despite your 3.01, then that's a positive aspect of your first undergrad career. And yes, that first undergrad career will be heavily scrutinized regardless of what you do next.

That being said, MAMS students are given up to one year to do research. Even if I do not matriculate to medical school as an MSTP student, I've read that it is possible to apply after your first year. The knowledge that I lack in this regard is where exactly can I fit in more research experience? Do first year medical students do research?

One year at one institution is almost enough time to get started with substantial research. You should not expect to get a pub out of this year - some people get lucky with a chart review or case report during that year, but regardless you won't have a published asset in hand until well after you complete a 2 year program, which doesn't help you much if at all with a med school app.

Yes it's true that you can apply after your first year of a two year program such as BUMAMS or Tufts, but you are not in a good position to apply at that point because your 3.01 is still the dominant asset on your app. Leaving that 3.01 unredeemed prior to starting an SMP is a thing that SMPs may allow, but you are on your own to defend that most relevant app asset come med school app time.

If I were, hypothetically, accepted to and do well in one of the two more competitive (and research-intensive) programs that I mentioned in my first post, would my uGPA alone stand in my way of pursuing an MD/PhD? These two would arguably fit the description you provided for a rigorous thesis-based program, as they are thesis granting and can take up to two years. Furthermore, research is emphasized to the same extent that coursework is in these programs. They both specifically mention bolstering grades for pursuit of an MD/PhD.

First, "research-intensive" is euphemistic when there's one year of research. If your interest is academic research, then you are up against the other kids who have a dozen pubs going into MSTP or other MD/PhD programs.

And yes, your uGPA is a major, major problem. Med schools regularly get 5000 apps for 150 seats, and the default is not a "yes" vote but a "no" vote on any app with any problem. You have a problem.

To address the inflated stats of New England-area med school hopefuls, I don't necessarily care as much about seeking a degree from a prestigious NE school (or for that matter UCSF or similar west-coast schools). I would love to return to my home state of Iowa if possible, in fact. As you pointed out, I was citing BU matriculants simply because I only had that data available; I'm aware that I can't necessarily extrapolate. I'm trying to make due with what I have, and I too would love to see more analysis from SMP programs.

I'm not talking about med school at a NE school, I'm talking about the competition you face at BU MAMS or Tufts MBS.

To address the question about research during med school, yes that's common. It's fairly common to spend the summer after M1 year doing a research fellowship which starts the process of getting a pub. It's fairly common to work in a lab on a basic science question during pre-clinical years. It's fairly common to take a research year, typically to better prepare for a particular specialty. It's extremely common to do case reports or chart reviews that require an IRB process and multiple years of work. It's also extremely common to land with the wrong PI on a project as a med student, put in months of work, and get nothing.

Of note, I want to make sure you're aware that there are MD/PhD possibilities other than the MSTP fully-funded prestige-y super competitive path. Any MD school that is hosted at a PhD-granting institution may be able to accommodate your interest in getting a research PhD. The major difference with doing this route vs. MSTP is that you're paying for med school, and sitting on that $250k average student debt while you're working on your PhD. Your PhD may be funded, maybe by research or teaching assistantships, or maybe not.

Now, if you want to focus on just being a garden variety medical student with a research background, then my recommendation for what to do next changes to this:
1a. Make friends with DO and do maybe one more undergrad year to answer for your 3.01.
1b. OR do a 2nd bachelors (or otherwise produce a multi-year mostly-science very strong ie 3.7+ undergrad performance) with letters
2. If MD, do an SMP. BUMAMS is an excellent choice, as are Tufts or Loyola.

Lastly, the SMP path tends to include multiple cross-country moves, and the SMP path isn't necessary. It's entirely reasonable to stay in Iowa and do all this from home. But bottom line, you need to respect your competition, and understand that you're starting from more than 2 standard deviations below the matriculant average of US med schools, including DO. In general, the SDN advice that applies to you is found by searching on "low GPA". And that's a freaking gold mine.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrMidlife]

Oh btw the Mt Sinai and Northwestern programs generally won't look at someone with less than a 3.4 GPA.