So frustrated with the Army...

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MonkeyRalph

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For the past two years, the army has been in the process of kicking me out for being gay. However, they are still making me do all the military match applications, which is such a waste of time and money. I know that I'm not going to match in the military because I have not been able to do any military clinical rotations since they put me on LOA. I seriously am soooo annoyed right now. Since I'm on LOA, I don't get the HPSP stipend and cannot really afford to waste an extra 60 bucks just to apply to army programs that would never want to rank a homosexual. So pointless...
 
no, I've been gay since forever...
I have been in the army since before med school and being gay has never been an issue before. I earned my commission through ROTC before med school and also spent time in the Reserves during college. After graduating, I got HPSP for med school. During med school, me being gay became an issue with the army and they've been shuffling their feet about what they're going to do for two+ years.
Just another reason to avoid the military... anything that would normally take 2-4 weeks in the real world can take up to 2-4 years in the army.
 
what happened to the "don't ask dont' tell" policy?
 
I'm not about to go back into the closet to keep a scholarship or a job. I've been in the military for almost 6 years without ever really being "in the closet." I'm not flaming, but when I am working closely with a group of people, I will talk about my partner once in a while. So no, I don't follow DADT, but it's an outdated policy anyways.

I'm perfectly happy being in the military or not, but I'm more annoyed that they're dragging this out for 2 years. Either let me stay or let me go... don't leave me in limbo. It's really frustrating to have to apply to a whole bunch of programs without even knowing if I'll be allowed to even rank half of them.
 
I'm not about to go back into the closet to keep a scholarship or a job. I've been in the military for almost 6 years without ever really being "in the closet." I'm not flaming, but when I am working closely with a group of people, I will talk about my partner once in a while. So no, I don't follow DADT, but it's an outdated policy anyways.

I'm perfectly happy being in the military or not, but I'm more annoyed that they're dragging this out for 2 years. Either let me stay or let me go... don't leave me in limbo. It's really frustrating to have to apply to a whole bunch of programs without even knowing if I'll be allowed to even rank half of them.

Huh? So did you talk about your partner when you signed up for the military? The DADT policy has been around since Clinton, so it's not like it's a new thing.

Sorry, but don't expect pity when you were perfectly happy to "not tell" when signing up for the scholarship. Obviously they're not going to make it super easy to get out after that. Otherwise every gay med student in the country would just take the scholarship for a few years and then come out of the closet when their time to serve came around (and half of the straight ones would be pretending to be gay).
 
when I signed up for the scholarship, I was already commissioned and many of my colleagues who commissioned with me knew I was gay. i never lied about my orientation. I did not have a partner at the time I applied for HPSP, so obviously I didn't talk about him.
I'm not asking for pity and I'm not asking to be let out of my contract. I'm simply relating another instance where the army is not the smartest or quickest organization and to warn others.
and yes, I realize that DADT is over 10 years old... hence, "it's an outdated policy anyways"
 
How did the Army find out, and why did you join HPSP if you are gay? You knew the trouble that would ensue! The financial benefits aren't even worth it, and as for the military service part..Well, you knew what was up ahead of time!
 
Read above so I see why you joined HPSP, but I don't think you can call DADT "outdated" just because it's 10 years old. UCMJ is a bit older than that, I believe...
 
Not feeling a lot of sympathy. If you wanted to be in the military you would have kept your trap shut and your orientation hidden. Now, expect them to ruin your life for a few years as they slowly outprocess you. Nothing about the military is nice, or fair. This is why so many of us keep our heads down and fly under the radar. No sense in making a stink about anything when a few schmucks have this much power over where I live, where I deploy to, and how easy it is get a job afterward.

If you think DADT is outdated, you should have seen the policy in place before it.

Remind us again why you signed up for HPSP? Did you think the military would change its policy before you graduated from med school?
 
If I didn't take HPSP, I would have been forced to defer med school and be a medical service corps officer for 3 years before they would allow me to go to med school. Since, I already had an acceptance to med school, I didn't think it would be smart to turn it down and reapply 3+ years later.
As I said, I'm not asking for sympathy. I'm perfectly happy with who I am and I'm not willing to hide it just to keep a job or scholarship. I'm just trying to warn other people that certain organizations are slowwwwwww when it's convenient for them.
Since I don't seem to be helping anyone here, I'll take my venting and warnings somewhere else. Good luck, all.
Keep your heads low, do what you're told, and everything will be perfect.
 
If I didn't take HPSP, I would have been forced to defer med school and be a medical service corps officer for 3 years before they would allow me to go to med school. Since, I already had an acceptance to med school, I didn't think it would be smart to turn it down and reapply 3+ years later.
As I said, I'm not asking for sympathy. I'm perfectly happy with who I am and I'm not willing to hide it just to keep a job or scholarship. I'm just trying to warn other people that certain organizations are slowwwwwww when it's convenient for them.
Since I don't seem to be helping anyone here, I'll take my venting and warnings somewhere else. Good luck, all.
Keep your heads low, do what you're told, and everything will be perfect.

Well, it looks like it seemed pretty convenient for you to take the scholarship knowing that this would (in all probability) happen.
 
If I didn't take HPSP, I would have been forced to defer med school and be a medical service corps officer for 3 years before they would allow me to go to med school. Since, I already had an acceptance to med school, I didn't think it would be smart to turn it down and reapply 3+ years later.

Why didn't you tell them you were gay and get out of your MSC commitment? I thought the policy applied both to docs and to MSC officers. Maybe I'm a little slow, but I'm having a little trouble connecting the dots here.
 
Dude, you broke the rules. What's this talk about convenience and rules? Come on. You can't blame the Army when you break the rules! This story doesn't add up..How did they find out you were gay, and why is it only now, that you're an HPSP, that it came out?
 
Not feeling a lot of sympathy. If you wanted to be in the military you would have kept your trap shut and your orientation hidden. Now, expect them to ruin your life for a few years as they slowly outprocess you. Nothing about the military is nice, or fair. This is why so many of us keep our heads down and fly under the radar. No sense in making a stink about anything when a few schmucks have this much power over where I live, where I deploy to, and how easy it is get a job afterward.

If you think DADT is outdated, you should have seen the policy in place before it.

Remind us again why you signed up for HPSP? Did you think the military would change its policy before you graduated from med school?
Well, hold on here. You're blaming the guy for being effectively railroaded by a clearly discriminatory policy? In my research, I saw a pretty healthy population of gays in the military that didn't, nor should be required to, hide the fact.

You said it yourself: the military isn't being nice or fair. But you're turning right around and excoriating this guy for being the victim of unfairness and smallmindedness? C'mon...just as lots of us civilians tacitly understand that a few are required to throw themselvs onto their sword in order that we don't have to endure mandatory military service, I think you have to in kind appreciate those within the military that are trying to make it work despite the rampant idiocy each of you acknowledges with 90% of the posts on here.

Plus, if it was any organization other than the government of the United States, this guy would be able to sue the bejesus out of his employer for sexual orientation discrimination in 23 different states in our union.
 
As I see that I am stirring up nothing but hostility in this thread, I'm done posting in it after this. I was just trying to help people in the future that may be in my situation. To those people who may feel at ease with their units and their sexuality, good for you, but don't get too comfortable with new people until you know you can trust them, and don't let people get under your skin with their rampant homophobic comments. Or you too, may have to deal with an inordinate amount of crap.

To tie up any loose ends, I will answer the last few questions. As I said earlier, people in my unit knew I was gay since before I got my commission. The reason I didn't come out to get out of my MSC commitment was because I never intended to "get out" of anything. I worked very very hard to get my commission, and I am very proud of it. I would never just give it up like that. Many of you HPSPers were just handed a commission when you signed up for the scholarship and don't realize exactly how much it takes to earn one through OCS, green to gold, or ROTC. But being a commissioned officer is a privilege and honor and not just a pin you wear on your BDU top. Having said that, to me, it's more important to have my family and be myself than to lie about it. I wish that I could have stayed and fulfilled my commitment, but that is not likely at this point. Either way, I feel like they're drawing out a long and painful process instead of just shooting the injured deer in the head and putting it out of its misery. The downward spiral happened at HPSP-OBC through a series of unfortunate events. If you want to know more or have any other negative comments, you can PM me, but I'm done posting in this thread.

Good luck to anyone who will have to lie and hide to keep your jobs. Hopefully, this will not be an issue for much longer.
 
Why didn't you tell them you were gay and get out of your MSC commitment? I thought the policy applied both to docs and to MSC officers. Maybe I'm a little slow, but I'm having a little trouble connecting the dots here.
A somewhat more fair accusation, but still fails to address why, as a physically fit and qualified human being, he shouldn't be allowed to receive the very same benefits as someone that prefers vaginal intercourse? Even if you were to take the incredibly backward stance that this preeference is some sort of medical depravity, please tell me where it falls in the pecking order of maladies that have been happily waivered?
 
Having said that, to me, it's more important to have my family and be myself than to lie about it. I wish that I could have stayed and fulfilled my commitment, but that is not likely at this point. Either way, I feel like they're drawing out a long and painful process instead of just shooting the injured deer in the head and putting it out of its misery. The downward spiral happened at HPSP-OBC through a series of unfortunate events. If you want to know more or have any other negative comments, you can PM me, but I'm done posting in this thread.

Good luck to anyone who will have to lie and hide to keep your jobs. Hopefully, this will not be an issue for much longer.
As the lone openly gay voice on this forum, I think it's important for those struggling against the same tide to be able to PM you. You currently have no information to do so.
 
A somewhat more fair accusation, but still fails to address why, as a physically fit and qualified human being, he shouldn't be allowed to receive the very same benefits as someone that prefers vaginal intercourse? Even if you were to take the incredibly backward stance that this preeference is some sort of medical depravity, please tell me where it falls in the pecking order of maladies that have been happily waivered?

The reason is that many of the front line soldiers/marines/airmen/whatever in the military come from conservative backgrounds and would not be comfortable serving in the trenches (and showering with) openly gay service members. This would hurt morale, recruiting and ultimately combat effectiveness. In addition, enemy states would integrate this into their propaganda and psychological operations. While I support gay rights (including marriage), from a practical point of view abandoning DADT could damage national security. I think the military should waive DADT for certain high-value positions such as Arabic/Korean translators, health professionals and other non front-line combat positions though.
 
This and many more reasons. Regardless, the rules are the rules, and a soldier who signs up shouldn't be surprised when they are in trouble for breaking the rules. Don't like em? Don't sign up!

The reason is that many of the front line soldiers/marines/airmen/whatever in the military come from conservative backgrounds and would not be comfortable serving in the trenches (and showering with) openly gay service members. This would hurt morale, recruiting and ultimately combat effectiveness. In addition, enemy states would integrate this into their propaganda and psychological operations. While I support gay rights (including marriage), from a practical point of view abandoning DADT could damage national security. I think the military should waive DADT for certain high-value positions such as Arabic/Korean translators, health professionals and other non front-line combat positions though.
 
A somewhat more fair accusation, but still fails to address why, as a physically fit and qualified human being, he shouldn't be allowed to receive the very same benefits as someone that prefers vaginal intercourse? Even if you were to take the incredibly backward stance that this preeference is some sort of medical depravity, please tell me where it falls in the pecking order of maladies that have been happily waivered?

Well, you've effectively changed the subject from what the response to the rules is to what the rules should be.

Different topic for a different thread.
 
Well, hold on here. You're blaming the guy for being effectively railroaded by a clearly discriminatory policy? In my research, I saw a pretty healthy population of gays in the military that didn't, nor should be required to, hide the fact.

You said it yourself: the military isn't being nice or fair. But you're turning right around and excoriating this guy for being the victim of unfairness and smallmindedness? C'mon...just as lots of us civilians tacitly understand that a few are required to throw themselvs onto their sword in order that we don't have to endure mandatory military service, I think you have to in kind appreciate those within the military that are trying to make it work despite the rampant idiocy each of you acknowledges with 90% of the posts on here.

Plus, if it was any organization other than the government of the United States, this guy would be able to sue the bejesus out of his employer for sexual orientation discrimination in 23 different states in our union.

We're blaming him b/c his story doesn't add up. Well actually that's not true . . . it adds up to only one thing: he intentionally decided to use his sexual orientation to get out of the military after he signed up well aware of the DADT policy. I don't really see how the military could have found out he was gay in med school any other way.

Your arguments about how you think the military should allow homosexuals are completely besides the point. The OP was well aware of the current DADT policy when he joined the military.

And in regard to "smallmindedness" . . . I'm guess that you have no idea how close the quarters can be in the military. Would you want your wife staying in extremely close quaters with men? How about having her takes showers w/ men in the military . . sharing the same shower nozel?
 
Well, you've effectively changed the subject from what the response to the rules is to what the rules should be.

Different topic for a different thread.

LOL, that's b/c he was grasping at straws. Always easier to change the subject then argue a losing point.
 
Well, you've effectively changed the subject from what the response to the rules is to what the rules should be.

Different topic for a different thread.
OK. Fair enough. I was trying to address the silliest line of reason.

How about this: the enforcement appears to be complete arbitrary. I'm not even in the military and I know a handful of folks that, while they don't go about advertising their sexual orientation, don't exactly hide it either. They've not been turfed yet.

I don't know who you are, but I'm pretty sure you know of or at the very least suspect one of your fellow soldiers of being gay/lesbian. If that's the case, the logic that battle readiness (and, even sillier, "national security") have been compromised makes no sense. There are already gays in the military. Do you still have issues taking a shower?
 
Wonder if this was a troll post...
 
OK. Fair enough. I was trying to address the silliest line of reason.

How about this: the enforcement appears to be complete arbitrary. I'm not even in the military and I know a handful of folks that, while they don't go about advertising their sexual orientation, don't exactly hide it either. They've not been turfed yet.

I don't know who you are, but I'm pretty sure you know of or at the very least suspect one of your fellow soldiers of being gay/lesbian. If that's the case, the logic that battle readiness (and, even sillier, "national security") have been compromised makes no sense. There are already gays in the military. Do you still have issues taking a shower?

Well, as long as we both recognize that we've deviated from the original point of discussion...

I can't speak broadly enough to address how arbitrarily the rule is applied. I can say that in my limited experience, the rule is applied very strictly. There's an obvious line in the sand, and everyone is aware of where it is. How? Because 1) DADT is pretty common knowledge, 2) it's in every contract, and 3) we all have to go to annual training to remind us of where the line is.

The letter and the spirit of the regulation says that you can walk, talk, and even act like a gay man or woman, but as long as you don't 1) get caught in a homosexual act or 2) admit it in front of fellow military personel then you're good to go. In fact, otherwise, I would suspect that whoever "outs" you probably broke the regulation in doing so.

Sure, I have colleagues who I suspect, but frankly I don't care one way or another to really think about it too much. I can say that no one ever bothers them about it, and if they did I hope that both sides would face the consequences of breaking the DADT regulations. My thoughts on battle readiness vis-a-vis gays in the military are peripheral to this discussion.

Just to be clear, I didn't mention the shower "issue".
 
I really wonder if you just tried to make a dope deal with them as follows:

I'll go to Iraq or the Stan, DMZ, or any other turd pile of your choice as an MSC officer. I'm sure they got tons of slots they cant fill. At the end of your ADSO, you resign quietly.

there''s always some dingus that is behind the scenes pulling strings. They could care less if you're gay, they just enjoy ****ing with people. remember, they talk a lot of smack about what they're gonna do, but you're only one combat tour away from total forgiveness.

remember, nobody that is career Army gives **** one about whose winning the war, what's the war about, or freedom or all that other crap. They're just a bunch of ****** trying to make retirement and jerk people around.

go do your combat tour, keep your mouth shut.
 
remember, nobody that is career Army gives **** one about whose winning the war, what's the war about, or freedom or all that other crap. They're just a bunch of ****** trying to make retirement and jerk people around.

You're an idiot.

When you respond, just re-read my above comment, because I won't be meddling anymore with this kind of trash talk about career Army folks.
 
The reason is that many of the front line soldiers/marines/airmen/whatever in the military come from conservative backgrounds and would not be comfortable serving in the trenches (and showering with) openly gay service members. This would hurt morale, recruiting and ultimately combat effectiveness.

They used to say the same thing about black people.

And then one day someone did the right thing and ordered the military to end discrimination based on race. A bunch of bigots whined, complained, and claimed (with a straight face, believing every word) that national security would be compromised if the good ol' boys had to share foxholes with the darkies.

Someday the same order will be given with regard to gays, and another group of qualified people will no longer be barred from serving.

While I support gay rights

This sounds far too much like "I'm not racist, but ..." for me to believe you actually support gay rights.
 
They used to say the same thing about black people.

And then one day someone did the right thing and ordered the military to end discrimination based on race. A bunch of bigots whined, complained, and claimed (with a straight face, believing every word) that national security would be compromised if the good ol' boys had to share foxholes with the darkies.

Someday the same order will be given with regard to gays, and another group of qualified people will no longer be barred from serving.



This sounds far too much like "I'm not racist, but ..." for me to believe you actually support gay rights.

Stop trying to bring race into this to support your argument. Your opinion is so naive that it is not even worth responding to.
 
The OP knew what the rules were before he joined, and he knew he was going to be breaking them every minute of every day while in the military. If you don't like the rules in the military, write your Senator and get them changed. But you better obey them while you're serving in the military. Whine to the people that can change the law not to those of us who obey it. When I put my life in my wingman's hands, I don't care about his/her sexual orientation. All I care about is his/her ability to do his job and shoot down the bogey at my six o'clock. If he/she is breaking DADT = breaking the law, he/she shouldn't have the job to which my life is trusted. The OP knew he was breaking the law so whining about the Army doing this and that, and trying to warn people, etc. is a bunch of :barf:

"For those who have fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
 
When I put my life in my wingman's hands, I don't care about his/her sexual orientation. All I care about is his/her ability to do his job and shoot down the bogey at my six o'clock.

If he/she is breaking DADT = breaking the law, he/she shouldn't have the job to which my life is trusted.
Right when I think I'm out, they pull me back in...

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what does the latter have to do with the former? A fellow pilot is gay, so somehow he's incapable of the job of protecting your life?

By the same rationale, I expect you'll be tendering your resignation papers the next time you jaywalk. Or, for that matter, whenever any of your colleagues commits any minor infraction, because your life is now somehow at greater risk.

It sounds like most here have no problem with gays, but rather with the fact that the OP did not toe the line perfectly from an administrational perspective. If you're painting him with that, be careful because that brush is mighty wide, and probably includes you for some non-DADT reason.
 
You're an idiot.

When you respond, just re-read my above comment, because I won't be meddling anymore with this kind of trash talk about career Army folks.


Stay away from the Red kool-aid. you prior service, you can't be. there isn't one person in boots that hasn't been screwed by some lifer.

I don't really care how many gays there are in the service. lesbians, different story. they're just a disruptive pain in the ass and before you know it, they got the lesbian mafia going in the unit.

If you're a resident, never been a real unit, then you don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to gays or career lifers.

the hospital ain't the Army bud. Save the flag waving.
 
the OP did not toe the line perfectly from an administrational perspective.

If you're painting him with that, be careful because that brush is mighty wide, and probably includes you for some non-DADT reason.

You can call it "administrational"...some call it "LAW-breaking." Whatever. You know he was wrong to do what he did IN THE FIRST PLACE. So don't try to excuse his bad behavior by making this about MY improprieties.
 
You can call it "administrational"...some call it "LAW-breaking." Whatever. You know he was wrong to do what he did IN THE FIRST PLACE. So don't try to excuse his bad behavior by making this about MY improprieties.
You missed my point.

There are two objections to gays that I've seen in this thread:
  • Gays make me uncomfortable, and thus national security is compromised
  • Gays are breaking a rule, and thus can't be trusted with national security
My responses:
  • There are gays already in the military that haven't been outed. You are already showering/sleeping/fighting alongside gays. You know you are; at 10% of the population, the statistics can't lie. Has it affected your job performance?
  • Every single one of your colleagues are breaking some rule or another, civilian or military. Do you find them any less trustworthy?
Please tell me what I'm missing.
 
There are gays already in the military that haven't been outed. You are already showering/sleeping/fighting alongside gays. You know you are; at 10% of the population, the statistics can't lie. Has it affected your job performance?

I'll try not to interject myself too far into this discussion, because I hardly feel qualified to speak intelligently about it. But, you should remember that you are typically dealing with highly educated, relatively worldly types on this forum. The 18-year old trigger-puller from Podunk, USA, is probably not intellectualizing this issue as much as we are. He may actually believe that his unit is "gay-free", and his job performance may actually be affected if he were to learn otherwise.
 
Every single one of your colleagues are breaking some rule or another...Please tell me what I'm missing.

What you're missing is what I pointed out before. You're trying to excuse the OP's behavior based on other people's behavior. You're not staying on target. By your reasoning you would call a Commander hypocritical for enforcing DADT if he ever jaywalked. Make a different thread if you want discussing the nature of good order and discipline as it relates to Commanders who enforce laws even if they've broken one.

I keep asking myself what am I missing? You keep making non sequitur arguments in an attempt to justify breaking the law. You have said you aren't in the military and consequently, you will have a difficult time understanding the military environment. To you it probably seems ridiculous that other soldiers are affected when a soldier decides to come out of the closet. Whether DADT is right or wrong, or should be law or not, is something for you to take up with your governmental representatives. Those representatives think it causes a big enough problem when people "come out," to make a law that requires a discharge for soldiers who choose to do so. As odd as that may seem to you, that's the way it is in the military right now. The position you take of trying to justify breaking the law is indefensible to me. The OP knowingly made a conscious decision to break it.
 
...And to answer your last question...

Yes, I find those colleagues who break more rules than others less trustworthy. To not concede that we all break rules would be fallacious on my part. I guess it comes down to degrees of rule breaking and how big the rule is that gets broken. Jaywalking...not so much. Is the person who lies less trustworthy than those of us who don't? I would answer yes.
 
I'll try not to interject myself too far into this discussion, because I hardly feel qualified to speak intelligently about it. But, you should remember that you are typically dealing with highly educated, relatively worldly types on this forum. The 18-year old trigger-puller from Podunk, USA, is probably not intellectualizing this issue as much as we are. He may actually believe that his unit is "gay-free", and his job performance may actually be affected if he were to learn otherwise.
You can't possibly tell me we're now writing policy with the lowest common denominator as a benchmark...
 
What you're missing is what I pointed out before. You're trying to excuse the OP's behavior based on other people's behavior. You're not staying on target. By your reasoning you would call a Commander hypocritical for enforcing DADT if he ever jaywalked. Make a different thread if you want discussing the nature of good order and discipline as it relates to Commanders who enforce laws even if they've broken one.

I keep asking myself what am I missing? You keep making non sequitur arguments in an attempt to justify breaking the law. You have said you aren't in the military and consequently, you will have a difficult time understanding the military environment. To you it probably seems ridiculous that other soldiers are affected when a soldier decides to come out of the closet. Whether DADT is right or wrong, or should be law or not, is something for you to take up with your governmental representatives. Those representatives think it causes a big enough problem when people "come out," to make a law that requires a discharge for soldiers who choose to do so. As odd as that may seem to you, that's the way it is in the military right now. The position you take of trying to justify breaking the law is indefensible to me. The OP knowingly made a conscious decision to break it.
What you call non sequiturs are my efforts at providing context for an arbitrarily enforced rule. Of course I'm engaging in moral relativism: it is self-evident that you can punish someone for murder, even if you made an illegal left turn into the gas chamber parking lot. There's a point, however: The rule of law, in order to be legitimate, needs to have a basis in some principal.

The principal here is homophobia, just as the principal for gender or race-based segregation was sexism or racism. The theory at the time was that blacks or women were in some way less capable soldiers than their white male counterparts. This has been illustrated to be untrue, and I hope you'll join me in agreeing that gays are the equal of a straight man or woman in their capacity.

The reason jaywalking is perceived to be a minor offense is because there doesn't exist a principal of safety: assuming you have functioning eyes and passable equilibrium, you'll probably arrive safely at the opposite curb. Just as you've committed minor offenses because the greater good (arriving more quickly) outweighed the de minimus harm (tiny chance of being hit by a rogue invisible vehicle), I'm willing to bet the OP joined the military in spite of his gay gene because the service to his country would ultimately outweigh someone possibly, maybe feeling skeezed out by taking a shower with him.

Like it or not, this country is founded on a guiding principal of equality amongst all its citizens and residents. I of course need not remind you that the military, although now marginalized to an entire sub-culture of citizens, works for the People. If someone in the year 2007 is still uncomfortable being in the same room as a gay person, my response is, "join the rest of us in this century". The military has a long history of having to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into line with updated broad social mores. That's not an insult, it's the outgrowth of a homogeneous demographic.

There's a reason the policy is called don't ask, don't tell. At its very heart, the prohibition isn't against being gay, it's against telling someone you're gay. The OP joined with the intent of never telling anyone. That follows the spirit of the law, if not the letter.
 
I can honestly see both sides here.

Look, the Army has a right to be pissed. Sure, gays can serve in the military, and many do better jobs than enlisted soldiers or officers. Being gay in and of itself does not have any particular bearing on one's capability as a miltiary officer, at least in my admittedly very limited military experience.

But that's not the issue here. The military has a policy against homosexuality. Whether the policy is right or wrong or fits with one's own personal beliefs is not the issue. When you commit to an organization such as the military you have to make a commitment to their policies as well, however much you disagree with them. This is a volunteer organization: no one put a gun to your head to make you sign up. Maybe you were misinformed. Yeah, that sucks, I can relate. But you were still a consenting adult. And hey, things can change. To the OP, if you found out you were gay during your HPSP time and were honest with the Army about the whole thing and then this difficulty happened, yeah, you'd have a beef.

But if you willingly signed up knowing you were gay and that this was against the policy you were agreeing to then I say the Army has every right to drag things out as long as they see fit, if for nothing more than to make an example out of your case. Screw it if it's an outdated policy not in sync with the times of 2007, it's still a policy and it's still on the books, and the OP knew that when he signed onto the HPSP. That's just plain old dishonesty right there, and it renders all the other arguments about whether gays can serve in the military moot. The real issue then becomes well, you lied to the military to get in when it was convenient and then you lied when it might be convenient to get out...gee, what if one day it became convenient to lie to me, and that lie might endanger my life or well-being? How much could I trust you then not to lie to me even though it might be convenient to you? Hmm. Sorry, I gotta take Heeeed!'s side here.
 
I know I said I would stop posting here, but I'm absolutely appalled at what I've been reading. Both Heeed and AF M4 have called me a liar.

I never lied. The reason I got investigated in the first place was for being honest. In fact, the entire premise of the DADT policy is that anyone who is gay and honest is punished.

When I received an affidavit telling me to acknowledge or deny the accusations against me, I could have very easily kept my job and my scholarship by lying. But I was honest.

Yes, I knew I was probably gay when I signed my very first military contract at the age of 19, but I grew up an army brat and thought that many people didn't care. There were a couple of soldiers that I worked with as a "summer hire" during high school, who were completely honest about themselves, so I didn't think it would be a big deal.

That was reinforced during my years of service in the reserves and as an ROTC cadet, when no one seemed to mind that I was gay. In fact, I was gay and was still selected as the battalion commander for my school. Not only that, but the air force and marine corps ROTC also both had homosexuals as the head cadets at the time. Did I scream at the top of my lungs, "I'm gay!?" No, but my commandant and BC saw me on the cover of our university newspaper with a gay pride symbol, and joked around about it with me, so it wasn't a secret. In my reserve unit, most of us saw each other around town in our civilian lives, and no one raised an eyebrow when they saw me holding hands with boys or walking to the only big gay bar in town.

If someone asked me if I was gay when I signed the contract, I may have thought about it a little more closely, but I still would not have lied.

I was raised in a family of career army officers. The reason I joined was not for money. I joined because I knew it was a good career. I never needed money. I had a full-ride merit scholarship for college, so I did not take an ROTC scholarship. I did ROTC because I wanted to be an army officer. During college, I realized I wanted to be an army physician. After I was branched MSC, they told me if I got into med school, I could take HPSP or I could serve my time as an MSC officer. Of course, since I had been accepted to med school, I took the scholarship, even though I go to one of the cheapest med schools in the nation.

During OBC, my naive, idealistic view of the military changed when I was confronted with blatant homophobia. I would have never expected future physicians to be so hateful and ignorant. I was having a fun night of drinking with my squad and heard some mean-spirited, ignorant words. In my attempt to enlighten people, I mentioned my partner. I didn't lie or back pedal after that, but I did try to change the subject. That was the beginning of the whole terrible ordeal. So that's what happened over two years ago, and I'm still not sure what will happen to me for the rest of my life because of it.

Was I naive? Yes. Was I stupid? Maybe. Was I a liar? No.
 
Dude, nobody is attacking your being gay, we're just wondering why you're attacking the Army for joining and then violating a rule you knew you couldn't keep ahead of time. Don't like the rules? Don't join!
 
The OP joined with the intent of never telling anyone. That follows the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

I don't think this is true. While he didn't go around yelling it, he might as well have. Cover of the school newspaper? Holding hands with men in public? There's no way he was trying to be discrete here.

You may think the policy's wrong, but you knew it when you signed up. Don't complain when they enforce it, or about how long it takes for them to enforce it.
 
I don't really care for the idea of gays in the military, but I don't really think females ought to be in the military either, but we've already gone down the slippery slope this far and we all knew this would happen.

I would say that in 23 years of service, the straights gotta bigger freak show going and could give the gays a run for their money.

I can't tell you the number of times I've been called in to treat injuries from kinky sex tricks between the officers wives, the senior officer husbands. GSW under unusual circumstances between geographical bachlors and female troops. the female officers and NCOs are usually deployed " queens for a year" and get passed around the BOQ like a joint of panama red.

downrange, the sex with the midget at TDC, eating a banana stuck in a strippers vagina on stage, an on and on.

The whole freaken organization is packed with hypocrites. it really is about my career, who I can control, my ever expansive EGO, and what's in for me and how can I manipulate everybody in my little fifedom. Meanwhile, I'm wearing women's underware under my BDU's as I'm writting your d/c.
 
I don't think this is true. While he didn't go around yelling it, he might as well have. Cover of the school newspaper? Holding hands with men in public? There's no way he was trying to be discrete here.

You may think the policy's wrong, but you knew it when you signed up. Don't complain when they enforce it, or about how long it takes for them to enforce it.

I exert no control over the press; they took a photo of me that I did not know was going to be taken. I never asked to be on the cover of the newspaper.

It's a rule that in all my experience, I was basically told was stupid and never enforced, so I really felt no need to be discreet. I was made to believe that it was a rule that people chose to enforce only to get out scumbags who didn't pull their weight. I have always been in the top third of every OML and OER, so I never thought it would happen to me. In fact, despite all the stuff that was going on, I still graduated OBC as an honor grad, one of only two from my platoon. So, it really didn't seem real that it would be enforced against me.

Growing up, I simply wanted to be myself. During that stage of development, trying to suppress who you are damages the ego. Now, I'm a well-adjusted, happy guy who happens to be going through some crappy circumstances. I'd rather be in the position that I'm in now, than be a closeted soldier with no sense of self and constantly be living in fear of being outed. That sounds like a terrible life.
 
Alpha, you make me laugh, even though I don't think you should call gays a freak show.
 
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