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So many 23,24, and 25 AA's, why?

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by studentdent00, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. studentdent00

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    Just head over to DAT discussion forum, and you will notice 23+ AA's popping up really frequently. Back when I was applying to dental school, I'd only see these scores once or twice a week, not like every other day. I'm convinced that the prep materials are becoming too good that even academically mediocre students (i.e. those with sub 3.5 GPA's) can score in 23+ range with using the popular prep sources. Either that or the test is getting easier, or the students are becoming smarter, which doesn't seem likely...

    I wonder if the score distributions for the recent years have been following the standard bell curve or a whale curve rather.
     
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  3. DustFreeEraser

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    DAT HARDER/EASIER


    Contrary to popular belief, the DAT has become neither harder nor easier. For the past decade, the mean DAT AA scores have remained relatively unchanged in spite of doubling of the number of applicants. The DAT is a standardized test and it is expected to have relatively stable mean scores. Using a chemistry analogy, we can consider the DAT as a buffer (buffered solution), where the mean scores (pH) remains relatively unchanged by addition of high or low scores (acid or base). The relatively constant mean score for the applicants should not be confused with the increase of the scores seen with the enrollees, which, in general, are going to be higher since they are a function of the number of applicants. On the enrollee side, there has been a significant change in the mean scores seen with the PA, which has increased by roughly 3 points since 2004. The mean DAT for the 2012 class for AA was: applicants 18.7 (range 11-28), enrollees 19.9 (13-28); PA 19.3 (9-30), 20.1 (10-30); TS 18.4 (10-30), 19.8 (12-30).


    Source:
    2015 Guide to Dental School Admission by Doc Toothache
     
  4. DustFreeEraser

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    And also, by labeling those with <3.5 gpa as academically mediocre, you're labeling the near majority (if not the majority) of applicants and enrollees as mediocre in terms of academics.
     
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  5. kyle nguyen

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    You should probably use a different source other than SDN. I suggest the ADEA guide which would suggest that the scores have remain relatively constant over the years. I would hope now that you are in dental school that you can see how skewed SDN can be.
     
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  6. cacajuate

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    Not this all over again..
     
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  7. nonociceptors

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    One thing I am curious about is that according to some data from a few years back, a 25 AA on the DAT was around the 99.9 percentile. So that means you're in the top 0.1% of all test takers if you got a 25? So if there were 16,000 test takers, only 16 could have scored higher than you, right? Why does that sound so off...
     
    #6 nonociceptors, Aug 13, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  8. Scumbag_Steve

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    Maybe the reason I got a 25AA as an "academically mediocre" student is because I know that dentistry is my calling, and I'm passionate enough about it to bust my butt studying for the DAT so I had a shot of getting into dental school. Worry about yourself and not other people.
     
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  9. whitepapertree

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    The reason people get good DATs with "mediocre" GPAs is because they go to academically challenging universities rather than the grade-inflating colleges. I see a lot of people elaborate on their 4.0 and then say what college they went to and it becomes completely understandable.

    Meanwhile, I have been saying that anything below a 24AA is like getting a 19AA
     
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  10. ajj70

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    Mean DAT of applicants is 19.9, oGPA 3.56 , sGPA 3.48--so according to you, just about all of the applicants are "academically mediocre"....

    All of the 23+ scores are for several reasons, first, you don't have a random sample here and you are not going to see those that score a 15 post their scores here, second, people lie or boost their numbers so they don't feel "academically mediocre".
     
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  11. ajj70

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    Bullhocky......and you have yet to substantiate your claim that a 24 is the new 19....none of the data/scores support what you say anywhere.

    There is more grade inflation at "academically challenging" schools....
    http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21615616-not-what-it-used-be-grade-expectations
    http://www.nyunews.com/2014/09/17/bisin-13/
    http://qz.com/157579/confession-of-an-ivy-league-teaching-assistant-heres-why-i-inflated-grades/
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-princeton-grade-inflation-edit-20140812-story.html
     
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  12. kyle nguyen

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    Have you ever looked at the ADEA Guide before? Sometimes it is better to keep unsupported thoughts to yourself rather than misguiding pre-dental students. I honestly wonder where people like you get your information, one too many SDN forums I presume.
     
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  13. pulltheleverkronk

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    This is my school... people have lower GPAs, but typically do really well on all the pre-health standardized tests. We get prepared really well.
     
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  14. Bereno

    Bereno Smoking Monkey
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    The problem with this conclusion is you are assuming a normal distribution. I would be willing to bet that the true distribution is slightly skewed a little to the right, and could even be bimodal. Additionally, every test has different percentiles for each score. One persons 21AA is a 93.4 percentile, while another person's 21AA is a 97.2 percentile. Just food for thought. :)
     
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  15. studentdent00

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    Generally, whether you do well on these standardized tests seems more to do with what commercial prep resources you use than which university you attend. Also, in an era when a lot of the dental schools are boasting 3.5+ average GPA for their enrollees, it seems impeccably reasonable to label sub 3.5 GPA as mediocre.
     
  16. hellofuturedentists

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    Don't know when you applied, but it might also have something to do with the fact that more people know about SDN now. The people who actively search for resources and tips to improve their scores likely have the determination to study harder and do better.
     
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  17. Dr Dimbsa

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    Are you talking about taking the two tests at two different times where the percentiles may change?
     
  18. Bereno

    Bereno Smoking Monkey
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    Yes and no. It appears there are many different versions of the exam so person A will have a different exam from person B, even if taken at the same time. Consequently, the percentiles for each exam will be different since the are different exams (one might be a little harder, one might be a little easier). That said, over time, the percentiles will likely change, but I cant comment fore sure on that.
     
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  19. PlasmaMembrane

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    Scores are definitely shifting upward. 23 AA is casual now, even 24 and 25 are happening often enough to lose their competitive edge. 26+ is the new 23+.
     
  20. swindoll

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    Because kids on SDN are smart, that's why. Don't extrapolate these scores to the rest of the population.
     
  21. The real 007

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    Well I got a 19 AA DAT and a 3.56 GPA. I'm the most mediocre applicant here.HAHA
    As long as I get in I could care less.
     
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  22. Pearl E. White

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    This is ABSOLUTELY not true.
     
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  23. okiedokeartichoke

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    I think it's important to keep in mind that SDN is a special community of folks that represent a tiny fraction of the entire applicant pool. Thus, there really aren't as many 23+ as you may think when you compare it to all test-takers. Also, users are more likely to post breakdowns of 23+ than they are of 20 and under.
     
  24. EasTexan

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    [​IMG]

    Pulled directly from @doc toothache 's guide to dental school. I just put it in a chart. It only goes to 2009, but I think it's safe to say the DAT AA's haven't shifted much. SDN isn't a good sample to be drawing conclusions from.

    Nope.
     
    #23 EasTexan, Aug 13, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  25. whitepapertree

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    Look at that again and then look at schools like NYU where the average DAT is 21. 6 years makes a big difference, new statistics showing 23AA is near 40% of all tests.
     
  26. PlasmaMembrane

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    It absolutely is. People may not like hearing it, but we have to be realistic here. There are 23, 24, 25 score DAT breakdowns on this site every day now - usually multiple.
     
  27. ajj70

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    again...please provide these statistics because the latest data is NOT supporting this....
     
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  28. Pearl E. White

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    Right...on this site...people aren't going to brag about their sub 18 scores. It wouldn't be helpful to post scores like that for others. People are going to post scores and breakdowns when they have done exceptionally well to help others (and share their excitement I'm sure). This forum does not account for ALL applicants.
     
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  29. Pearl E. White

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    Common sense does not support this either.
     
  30. PlasmaMembrane

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    It is true that you are not going to see scores of 18 getting breakdowns on here. But that is irrelevant to the increasing number of 23-25 score breakdowns. As you said, this forum does not account for all applicants but there are still such a high quantity of 23-25's it tells you how frequent these scores are happening now.

    @whitepapertree said it best:

     
  31. 510586

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    I don't think this is true. In glimmers ultimate breakdown, there were quite a bit of 22s-24s and still very few 26-28 . doesn't look much different. Also at my school they show the avg DAT of students and it has barely changed if at all
     
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  32. Pearl E. White

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    Respectfully, I disagree. I think if that were the case almost all schools would have a significantly higher average acceptance/applicant score than 19-21.
     
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  33. 510586

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    Exactly. If higher scores on sdn bothers people or appears to make dag look easier, it doesn't matter that much. What matters most is still score in relation to avg accepted people. I've still only seen one 27 and one 28 this year. Glimmers breakdown has like five 28s over two to three years
     
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  34. hellofuturedentists

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    Maybe there are simply more people taking the DAT. More people getting higher scores and posting, and more people getting lower scores and not posting
     
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  35. THS

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    Because everyone here one SDN that gets a "high" score will not hesitate to post a "DAT Breakdown" to "help others", when in reality, they are humble bragging like crazy.

    The majority of people that get 20 or less will feel less "worthy" to post their score here.
     
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  36. BYU4you

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    SDN has an App.
    Students have smart phones.

    I personally would never use the website if I had to go to a computer to use it.

    The more people using the website the more high scoring people are likely to come on.
    The more high scores being posted, the less likely people with lower scores will post.

    Same score distribution, higher percent of those with high scores actually posting.
     
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  37. 510586

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    If I do well I will post one. These breakdowns have been incredibly helpful for me, and the people who post them often still help me to this day. If it looks like humble bragging, I wouldn't mind. In the end people are still benefitting (other than people who are annoyed of humblebragging)
     
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  38. PlasmaMembrane

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    That's a pretty cynical outlook. Most of the breakdowns I've read are written to genuinely help others. Why do you believe they are just bragging?
     
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  39. Pearl E. White

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    I think many people do it with good intentions. Who better to share your excitement of receiving a stellar score with than your potential colleagues? I can't tell you how many times I've read an awesome breakdown and felt extremely happy for them. It gives me hope that I can do as well one day.
     
  40. EasTexan

    EasTexan 0011101001000100
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    This.

    Also, since they don't publish current DAT applicant scores anymore for AADSAS here's what I could dig up on DAT applicants accepted to Texas schools last year. Keep in mind, this is for those accepted.

    [​IMG]

    81% had a score of 21 or less.
    43% had a score of 19 or less.

    If you assume the applicant pool reflects this acceptance pool then the average AA is NOT 23+. But, we can probably assume the applicant pool is lower than this.
     
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  41. 510586

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    It doesn't look to be getting much easier anyway. If you look at most breakdowns, they post their BC scores and other practice material scores and compare it to the actual. I think over the years the difference hasn't changed much between practice scores (which stay relatively constant) and the actual DAT (which others assume to be getting easier)
     
  42. Pearl E. White

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    I wish it would also show each score's percentage in relation to total # of applicants with that score.
     
  43. EasTexan

    EasTexan 0011101001000100
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    Oh definitely. For whatever reason it seems they (AADSAS, TMDSAS, ADEA) haven't released DAT applicant numbers since 2009.
     
    #42 EasTexan, Aug 13, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
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  44. Pearl E. White

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    I guess because it doesn't really matter I suppose. It's nice to know, but in the grand scheme of things, there are many factors that determine one's acceptance or lack thereof.
     
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  45. SableFire

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    The thing about averages is they include GPAs both above and below the average. So if a school has an average of 3.6 you can damn well expect just under half of the students to have a 3.5 or lower but I guess they are mediocre and thus almost half of the country has mediocre dental students.
     
  46. postpitadh

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    i didn't post a breakdown because my scores seemed mediocre haha
     
  47. studentdent00

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    Predent A: I have a good GPA.
    Predent B: ?
    Predent A: I have a 3.49.
    Predent B:



















    [​IMG]
     
  48. kyle nguyen

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    Please just stop. It is getting annoying to read posts like this.
     
  49. PlasmaMembrane

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    Whether or not it annoys you doesn't change how valid it is.

    26+ is the new 23+.

    The times have changed.
     
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  50. studentdent00

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    I don't disagree with this. 23AA doesn't have the wow factor that it once used to have back in the old days.
     
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  51. 510586

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    According to you, but not dental admissions committees or any other evidence outside of sdn
     

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