So many questions. So. Many. Questions.

[thecaptain]

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Ok. Here is my deal. I am SO clueless about my chances, applying, etc.:

Undergrad at Berkeley. B.S. GPA =3.0
Post-Bacc. On year, inorganic chem GPA 4.0
Currently, Ph.D. program, UCLA, GPA 3.7.
awaiting mcat scores.
would like to go to ucla or usc for medical school.
2 years clinical experience, 2 years biotech industry experience.
avid bowler. no, just kidding.

um, so...yeah. so of the science core, ive redone inorganic. i can retake stat (originally a C) this summer (need to anyway for the phd anyway) and next year retake ochem (originally 2 C's). bio was fine. (2 B+'s) so if i retake those classes, what says you?

also, in terms of LORs - do i need to track down multiple people at my UG for this? (one i can do for a solid/glowing rec, any more than that is probably asking a lot. it was 6 years ago)

i leave my questions in the hands of the wise....
much thanks in advance!

capn

 

[RxnMan]

Ok. Here is my deal. I am SO clueless about my chances, applying, etc.:

Undergrad at Berkeley. B.S. GPA =3.0
Post-Bacc. On year, inorganic chem GPA 4.0
Currently, Ph.D. program, UCLA, GPA 3.7.
awaiting mcat scores.
would like to go to ucla or usc for medical school.
2 years clinical experience, 2 years biotech industry experience.
avid bowler. no, just kidding.

um, so...yeah. so of the science core, ive redone inorganic. i can retake stat (originally a C) this summer (need to anyway for the phd anyway) and next year retake ochem (originally 2 C's). bio was fine. (2 B+'s) so if i retake those classes, what says you?

also, in terms of LORs - do i need to track down multiple people at my UG for this? (one i can do for a solid/glowing rec, any more than that is probably asking a lot. it was 6 years ago)

i leave my questions in the hands of the wise....
much thanks in advance!

capn

While the PhD looks great, the ugrad grades will bite you in the rear. The clinicals and research look fine, and boosted with a good MCAT (30+) I'd say you're in the running for med school IF you apply to many places (30+). UC schools are notoriously hard to get into, and you'll be competing against kids with 3.8+ GPAs. You may think that the PhD will help you, and it will, but ADCOMs always favor ugrad GPA to grad GPA, and nothing will offset a 3.0. I had a lower ugrad GPA than your's, but check my profile and you can see what I had to do to overcome it.

And 6 years isn't that long. You can still hit up those old profs for LORs - they will remember you. Just choose them wisely. You want folks who know you and your goals, as well as speak highly of you.

 

[thecaptain]

so all LOR's must be from the UG? is there a main website where all these boring background questions can be answered so i can stop bothering the forum??
🙂
thanks...

 

[thecaptain]

nothing will offset a 3.0.

but you got in with a sub 3. so obviously something overcame that. did you retake some of your classes?

you know, i've read so much of the discussions on these boards, and though i had heard the rumors regarding the feud of md vs. phd, i didn't really believe it until now. not that it's strictly overt - though in some cases it is - but there is a definite consensus that the phd is this "whatever" degree. it saddens me to hear it, even from those that are presently part of a program. i took the phd because i wanted to learn how to think a certain way - approach a question with no clear answer, propose hypotheses, investigate them, get over the roadblocks creatively, learn when to keep going and when to give up, write effectively, answer to the best of my ability, repeat. med school proper doesn't train you like that, and this is invaluable in my opinion.

i'm quite happy that i've gone done this road. i'm learning so much about myself, my limits, how creative i can be. to anyone in a phd program, don't see it as a means to an end. enjoy it. learn as much as you can. see it as a way in which to open your mind to an entirely new way of approaching problems, life, yourself, your environment. what you'll learn you'll take everywhere.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

What's your UG + Post-Bac GPA? If you are around 3.5, and have a 30+ MCAT score, you should get in somewhere. Like Rxnman said, UC schools are notoriously hard to get into, but I have only "heard" that.

Also, I don't know that there is really a feud of MD vs. PhD (some of your interviewers may well be PhDs at the medical schools) it's just that graduate programs are even more varied and specialized than undergraduate programs, so ADCOMs have kept undergraduate, rather than overall, GPA as their measure of a candidate's aptitude. Plus, most Medical School applicants don't have a graduate degree.

What might bite you in the behind is that it seems that your BCPM GPA will also be low (with Cs in Chem and Stats, and Bs in Bio,) perhaps lower than your overall, so you will have to get that up. The logic goes that BCPM GPA is a good predictor of how you will do in the first 2 years of medical school, which are hard-core science. So, it might be worthwhile to retake them. What were your MCAT practice scores? How well do you think you did?

 

[RxnMan]

so all LOR's must be from the UG? is there a main website where all these boring background questions can be answered so i can stop bothering the forum??
🙂
thanks...

Oh no - but since a med school will be looking at your pre-reqs, it makes sense that the LORs come from the people teaching you those pre-reqs. You'd also need one from your PhD advisor, and it wouldn't hurt to have one from whomever you did your clinical stuff with.

LORs are value by proxy - An ADCOM sees Dr. So-and-so's evaluation of you (via the LOR) and uses that opinion to gauge the value of the different aspects of your application.

 

[RxnMan]

but you got in with a sub 3. so obviously something overcame that....

Not really. I have a more-than-competitive MCAT, research and clinical experiences, for CU, my state school. I have wonderful letters from their faculty, who I work for. I have a reputation in the medical research field here. I love Colorado and I want to practice here. By all appearances, you would think I'm the type of person they want in their class.

I spoke with the Admissions office after I got my rejection notice. All of my application scores (including my interview scores) were as good, if not better, than matriculants this year. Except for the GPA. CU was not going to admit me with that GPA.

Every time I interviewed, I was asked about it. I will bet money that every time my application was looked at, the ADCOMs were saying to themselves "If he gets in, which is the better indicator of his performance? The GPA or the ECs?" My poor GPA turned me into a betting proposition. ADCOMs have too many applicants to worry about placing bets. CU chose a safer bet. I was lucky that AMC took a chance on me.

you know, i've read so much of the discussions on these boards, and though i had heard the rumors regarding the feud of md vs. phd, i didn't really believe it until now. not that it's strictly overt - though in some cases it is - but there is a definite consensus that the phd is this "whatever" degree. it saddens me to hear it, even from those that are presently part of a program. i took the phd because i wanted to learn how to think a certain way - approach a question with no clear answer, propose hypotheses, investigate them, get over the roadblocks creatively, learn when to keep going and when to give up, write effectively, answer to the best of my ability, repeat. med school proper doesn't train you like that, and this is invaluable in my opinion.

i'm quite happy that i've gone done this road. i'm learning so much about myself, my limits, how creative i can be. to anyone in a phd program, don't see it as a means to an end. enjoy it. learn as much as you can. see it as a way in which to open your mind to an entirely new way of approaching problems, life, yourself, your environment. what you'll learn you'll take everywhere.

I think, like jota said, that the flexibility of the PhD (liberal arts to womens studies to physical science) makes it difficult to gauge the relative worth of the grad work. But with institutions and majors being so different, you can argue that using ugrad grades isn't much better.

PhDs in medical science are usually interested in the particulars of a field, while the MDs want to move on and save patients. It's different views on the same subject. Preserve your happiness in your degree. Your hard work will definitely help you down the road. I'll tell you from my own experience that I've already been offered research projects during med school because of my grad degree. These sort of opportunities just snow ball into residency and beyond.

 

[thecaptain]

What's your UG + Post-Bac GPA? If you are around 3.5, and have a 30+ MCAT score, you should get in somewhere. Like Rxnman said, UC schools are notoriously hard to get into, but I have only "heard" that.

What might bite you in the behind is that it seems that your BCPM GPA will also be low (with Cs in Chem and Stats, and Bs in Bio,) perhaps lower than your overall, so you will have to get that up. The logic goes that BCPM GPA is a good predictor of how you will do in the first 2 years of medical school, which are hard-core science. So, it might be worthwhile to retake them. What were your MCAT practice scores? How well do you think you did?

in terms of the MCAT, i have no idea. i took the kaplan course. i was the oldest (29) person there, and i didn't have that frantic look in my eyes that all the others had - i don't know if thats age or ignorance on my part. probably a bit of both. so i stressed, yes, but not overly. physics was the most challenging for me. on my practice tests (i only took the kaplan ones, approximately 7 of them) i scored 12-13 on all my verbal sections and around 10's, give or take on the ps and bs sections. so overall, i kept scoring 30's on these tests by the time it all shook down. how do you think this is as a predictor? and what do i need to get?

i know that UG sciences is a good predictor of how well you'll do in first two year med school. i retook my year of inorganic one year out of undergrad and "replaced" my two C's with two A's. i think, for me, my poor UG science grades were more a pacing strategy - coming up to speed after being an english major, than actually difficulty with the material. how else could i go from being a C to the top grade in the class just two years later? i assume if i retake ochem i'll do similarly, though balancing that with my thesis project will be difficult, no doubt.

how do i calculate the post bac and UG gpa's together? specifically?

i dont know...im just wondering what my best strategy at this point will be given i'll apply next year.

 

[relentless11]

UG UG UG...its soo much about UG at UC. Any first, thecaptain, you can calculate overall UG GPA (UG + Post-bacc) by just considering your post-bacc courses as being taken during undergrad, so just add in the grade points and units where appropriate. So a standard GPA calculation.

Anyway back to the main topic, UC's are so much about numbers, not because they're trying to screw us over, but because they have so many that apply🙁. Your MCAT score will be a major player given what you have now. But I would recommend taking more UG courses even as a PhD student to offset any concerns that UC may have.

I had an UG GPA of 2.65, post-bacc of 3.4, PhD GPA of 4.0, and MCAT of 36. The guys up north at UC Davis keep telling me to take more undergrad classes to boost that low UG GPA, so I've been cranking away at UG classes through out my PhD program.

Ultimately, as ScottishChap said in another thread, may come down to how you sell yourself. If you make a strong enough case and provide enough proof to convince the adcoms that your post-bacc and grad work was sufficient difficult to redeem your UG GPA, then you may get in, especially when combined with a high MCAT score (34+). One of our mods, QofQuimica came from a school that did not do letter grades, but latear had 4.0 for her PhD program, and a 40+ MCAT, but still had a challenging time getting into med school (she got in though somewhere). So its obviously not going to be easy even with a high graduate level GPA🙁.

If I were to apply today, my main selling point(s) in terms of academic stuff would be my MCAT score, post-bacc, and my PhD GPA, with emphasis that many of my PhD courses were through our med school and vet school (taken with the 2nd year classes from both programs). So hopefully that would have an SMP effect..haha. But yea, its all about selling yourself, and throwing enough hard proof to reinforce your selling points.

 

[chrisjohn]

but you got in with a sub 3. so obviously something overcame that. did you retake some of your classes?

It can be done, but not easily. A successful application for a nontrad with a low UG GPA isn't a single variable algorithm. Every deficiency should be addressed if possible. Retake those courses, and obviously get A’s. Get some exposure to medicine, clinical research positions are great for this; you’ll meet physicians, patients, and even do some bench work some places. Bust out the MCAT.

About the Kaplan practice exams, the practice exam scores seemed to correlate well to my actual score. From your posts it sounds like you are 30+, so study a little more. While a 30-31 will get a student with an unblemished UG GPA in nearly every time, >35 pushes more doors open for those who took the scenic route.

Good luck!

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Hey, Captain. Although you're a non-traditional, 29 is a great age to apply - you get all the credit for life experience and maturity, but nobody is going to consider you (even subtly) "too old." Applying at age 43, I had to learn a lot about the non-trad game in order to be accepted at a good allopathic school.

Your PhD will be very impressive - I really don't think there is any "MD/PhD" hostility. A lot of medical school professors hold PhDs in addition to or instead of the MD degree. The problem is, traditional applicants do not hold graduate degrees so, while your graduate degree gets you brownie points, your graduate grades don't get a lot of attention because they can't be compared side-by-side against traditional applicants who don't have a graduate GPA. That's just how it is.

Your cumulative UG GPA is computed by taking your undergraduate grades plus any courses you've taken since then that were undergraduate level courses. Your cumulative UG GPA is the second most important grade statistic - the most important is your UG science GPA. That's computed by taking all of your undergraduate courses that fall within the definition of science according to AMCAS - whether you took them in contemplation of medical school or not. I had a 1979 astronomy course that fell within my science GPA, and I'm glad I wasn't playing around as a freshman all those years ago!

If your MCAT score is 30+, I'd say you have an excellent chance to be admitted - and, as odd as the Kaplan practice tests seem at times, your final score is likely to be very close to your highest Kaplan full-length practice. To be honest, though, I would apply very broadly. Your UG GPA is going to hurt you, and the UC medical schools are very, very tough to get into. If your PhD happens to catch someone's interest while reviewing your app, you may get an interview. Otherwise your UG GPA may not be UC-competitive.

As far as LORs, you can get them from any professor who taught you at the university level, undergraduate or graduate. I would get at least one of my two science professor LORs from a pre-requisite course if I were you.

Best of luck!

The University of Oklahoma College of Medicine - Class of 2010

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

One thing I forgot that I think ought to be pointed-out since you're new to this. If the osteopathic philosophy appeals to you, I would recommend calculating your GPA using the AACOMAS method to see what happens. I do NOT think that osteopathy is a "fallback" position for allopathy, but if you could be happy in an osteopathic school, you should consider that AACOMAS (the osteopathic application service) replaces grades for courses that you re-take - AMCAS (the allopathic application service) does not. Under AMCAS, if you retake two courses where you got "C's" and you get "A's" the second time around, AMCAS counts both grades and they average out to two "B's." AACOMAS, however, will replace those "C's" with the "A's." When your undergraduate GPA is the primary weakness in your application, you can raise that GPA under the AACOMAS system much faster than AMCAS.

 

[thecaptain]

One thing I forgot that I think ought to be pointed-out since you're new to this. If the osteopathic philosophy appeals to you, I would recommend calculating your GPA using the AACOMAS method to see what happens. I do NOT think that osteopathy is a "fallback" position for allopathy, but if you could be happy in an osteopathic school, you should consider that AACOMAS (the osteopathic application service) replaces grades for courses that you re-take - AMCAS (the allopathic application service) does not. Under AMCAS, if you retake two courses where you got "C's" and you get "A's" the second time around, AMCAS counts both grades and they average out to two "B's." AACOMAS, however, will replace those "C's" with the "A's." When your undergraduate GPA is the primary weakness in your application, you can raise that GPA under the AACOMAS system much faster than AMCAS.

years ago, when i was in UG, i thought a lot about osteopathic school. maybe you guys can help me out here: in terms of medicine, i want to do ob/gyn. my phd is centered around this type of thing, i have ob/gyns on my committee, etc. i'm totally happy doing basic patient care...and if i couldn't do ob/gyn i'd do general practice type stuff. i don't want to be a surgeon. my philosophy medical wise is very holistic - very whole patient, very alternative medicine. does osteopathy sound like a better road for me given what i've just told you?

also, something i havent disclosed yet. i know everyone is saying "apply everywhere" but, for a variety of reasons, i have to stay in LA. and its non-negotiable, unfortunately. it used to not be (it was between UCLA and Yale for my Ph.D.) but now, its got to be LA and parts nearby. so yeah, im basically...well, yeah.

and thank you, everyone, SO MUCH. you guys rock. super totally rock. for all your help.

 

[nozzie]

I don't have advice on whether the DO route is for you or not, but just so you know, Western University of Health Sciences is a DO school that is in Pomona, CA so that might be an option for you.

About LORs, I did my undergrad at Berkeley also and I've found from my own and my friends' experiences that the professors are pretty nice about agreeing to write you a LORs even though it's been several years since you graduated. Just a suggestion on approach - email some of the professors you took classes with and tell them briefly about your situation and ask for a meeting (try really hard to meet with them if at all possible). Have at least a draft of your personal statement, resume, transcripts prepared so that you can give it to them if they agree to write you a letter of rec.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

does osteopathy sound like a better road for me given what i've just told you? i havi have to stay in LA.

I'll second nozzie's post. Given that you're re-taking a number of courses, I suspect your AACOMAS GPA is going to be significantly higher than AMCAS. Western University of Health Sciences is a highly-respected osteopathic medical school in Pomona. If you are interested in the holistic approach, it might be a great fit and you'd receive first-rate training to pursue an OB/Gyn residency. I bet Western would find you to be an attractive candidate. You can certainly apply to UCLA and UCLA/Drew, but they're a longshot for everyone and your app may get "screened-out" on GPA up-front. I think a new UC medical school in Riverside looks like a go, too, but that's an awfully long drive or Metrolink ride and no opening date has been set so I'm sure it'll be 2008 or later - probably more like 2010.

 

[thecaptain]

I'll second nozzie's post. Given that you're re-taking a number of courses, I suspect your AACOMAS GPA is going to be significantly higher than AMCAS. Western University of Health Sciences is a highly-respected osteopathic medical school in Pomona. If you are interested in the holistic approach, it might be a great fit and you'd receive first-rate training to pursue an OB/Gyn residency. I bet Western would find you to be an attractive candidate. You can certainly apply to UCLA and UCLA/Drew, but they're a longshot for everyone and your app may get "screened-out" on GPA up-front. I think a new UC medical school in Riverside looks like a go, too, but that's an awfully long drive or Metrolink ride and no opening date has been set so I'm sure it'll be 2008 or later - probably more like 2010.

the more i think about it...the more i think you may be right. i'm wondering...how does having a DO reflect once I've finished school in terms of getting an ob/gyn residency? can i take on a residency that traditional allopathic students will be vying for as well? will i still be competitive? i know that the difference between allopathic and osteopathic schools is primarily philosophy, but what will be the impact on the other side of med school?

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

the more i think about it...the more i think you may be right. i'm wondering...how does having a DO reflect once I've finished school in terms of getting an ob/gyn residency? can i take on a residency that traditional allopathic students will be vying for as well? will i still be competitive? i know that the difference between allopathic and osteopathic schools is primarily philosophy, but what will be the impact on the other side of med school?

You might want to spend some time looking around the osteopathic forums. I have a lot of respect for osteopathy - a leading osteopathic school is in my hometown - but I'm an allopathic student and shouldn't be giving D.O. advice.

I can tell you, however, that - yes, a DO can apply for either an osteopathic or an allopathic residency. In a few very competitive subspecialties, the consensus opinion is that a DO is sometimes at some disadvantage. In OB/Gyn, however, I would think a DO with good board scores would be competitive in nearly any residency program. Once you get out of medical school, I think you would find that having a DO degree rather than an MD degree is a total non-issue. I know DO's in OB/Gyn and DO's in competitive subspecialties like derm and rads and I can tell you that reputation depends on skill and demeanor, not letters after your name. The only drawback that I know of is that, if you want to apply to the most competitive residencies, you may want to take the USMLE (allopathic) boards in addition to the COMLEX (osteopathic) boards.

 

[thecaptain]

but I'm an allopathic student and shouldn't be giving D.O. advice.

nah, advice is advice is advice. all of it comes with the grain of salt, right? you've helped me more than you know. i think what i'll do is apply to the allopathic and osteopathic schools in my area and let the chips fall where they may. still retake ochem and stat (which would leave me with ick grades in physics but really...i. have. a. limit. and retaking physics crosses over that) and see how it shakes down. if you know of any osteopaths that might be able to shed some light for me...let me know.

all the best...
capn

 

[QofQuimica]

A few more ideas:

1) There are at least two PhD to DOs on this board. One is docbill; he doesn't post in here often, but he does post in the osteo and pre-osteo forums. The other is dr.z, who does post in here sometimes. You might try talking to them about going the PhD to DO route.

2) Just to clarify what relentless said, my situation was pretty unusual. It's true that I didn't have any UG grades, but I would venture to guess that it's different having NO grades versus having LOW grades. I don't believe that the medical schools evaluated me the same way they would evaluate a typical student with a sub 3.0 GPA. However, as relentless said, UG grades are very important to many allopathic schools. Even though I had stellar grad grades and MCAT scores, I still had considerable difficulties with getting secondaries from several schools. My outcomes were very extreme; there were several schools that rejected me presecondary, post-secondary, and post-interview. There were also several schools that accepted me with full scholarships. I basically got both ends of the spectrum with very little in between; the schools pretty much either threw out all of the stops trying to get me to go there, or else threw me out on my derierre and told me not to let the door hit me. 😛

3) I think that you should definitely look into osteopathy based on what you've said you'd like to do. You might also consider shadowing a DO in your area to get some more experience with osteopathy. (I've been shadowing a DO myself these past few weeks, and it's been a very good experience.) But you can definitely be an OB/GYN as a DO. Again, docbill and dr.z would probably be able to tell you more about this than I can, but not only can DO graduates apply for allopathic residencies, I think that there are also some DO-only residencies as well.