So when do you get to learn what you want to specialize in?

[zoner]

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So for those schools that don't have 3rd year elective available, when do their students get to find out what they want to specialize in? I understand that they can find out about PCP related medicine that are part of their 3rd year core and find out if this is what they want to do during their rotations, but what about other specialties?

My understanding is that you have to start interviewing around Oct of your M4 year. So does that mean that you would have to find out what you want to do between the end of 3rd year and Oct of M4?

Thank you.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

It usually isn't a surprise at that point. For example, we had a cancer section in biochemistry and I hated it. We also just got done with the face in anatomy and it blew. So I can confidently say that I am not really interested in ENT or oncology. I also love the heart and anything related to pediatrics. I have a ton to learn as I am not even done with first semester. So over time your interests will be more defined and add this to your 3rd year, your board scores, and your class rank, you should have a pretty good idea what you can and should apply to in your 4th year.

 

[zoner]

It usually isn't a surprise at that point. For example, we had a cancer section in biochemistry and I hated it. We also just got done with the face in anatomy and it blew. So I can confidently say that I am not really interested in ENT or oncology. I also love the heart and anything related to pediatrics. I have a ton to learn as I am not even done with first semester. So over time your interests will be more defined and add this to your 3rd year, your board scores, and your class rank, you should have a pretty good idea what you can and should apply to in your 4th year.

Thanks for the Frky. But isn't just learning about in the text book vastly different than say treating it or actually working in that field? You hated cancer section in the textbook, but what if you really love working with patients that have cancer? Or say you found anatomy just ok, but you might love working/lifestyle of a radiologist?

My guess is that you are never sure unless you rotate through those specialties, or am I guessing wrong?

 

[SLC]

Thanks for the Frky. But isn't just learning about in the text book vastly different than say treating it or actually working in that field? You hated cancer section in the textbook, but what if you really love working with patients that have cancer? Or say you found anatomy just ok, but you might love working/lifestyle of a radiologist?

My guess is that you are never sure unless you rotate through those specialties, or am I guessing wrong?

As an MS2 I can say that so far from my experience, Frky is pretty much dead on.

At my school we split courses up into disciplines (more or less) and that's really helped me decide that there are multiple fields that I want nothing to do with. Of course, that's open to change during rotations (and I do get electives and selectives 3rd year).

For example, I really liked shadowing a neurologist I knew in undergrad. But during my neuro class I realized that there's a lot in Neurology that I want nothing to do with. I also didn't particularly enjoy learning about all the different types of headache and how to sort them out and treat them. I know that's an integral part of being both a Neurologist and a PCP, so there's a chance based on that and other things that I may not be interested in FM either.

I also really disliked Endocrine, and MSK. So Endocrinology and anything Ortho are probably out.

And so far in year two I liked Gyn but severely disliked OB so I think OB/Gyn is out at this point.

I'm also spending time in a FM clinic each week seeing patients. And while I came into med school thinking I might really enjoy FM, all the med-check appointments really get monotonous.

So based on that, so far my interests are Cardiology, Pulmonology, Nephrology, Gastroenterology, I'm excited for our upcoming Hematology course, I've also got some curiosity about Derm. And I've also liked the Pathology instruction quite a bit.

Based on previous experience I don't think I've got any interest in Surgery (I find it boring and monotonous more often than not) even though Anatomy is probably my strongest subject. I also think I'd get bored with Radiology. Reading films as an internist or IM sub-specialist would more than scratch any itch I'd have there.

I think that it's clear that I'm heading strongly towards IM, with an eye for some sort of fellowship afterward. That would tic all the boxes for me.

 

[zoner]

As an MS2 I can say that so far from my experience, Frky is pretty much dead on.

At my school we split courses up into disciplines (more or less) and that's really helped me decide that there are multiple fields that I want nothing to do with. Of course, that's open to change during rotations (and I do get electives and selectives 3rd year).

For example, I really liked shadowing a neurologist I knew in undergrad. But during my neuro class I realized that there's a lot in Neurology that I want nothing to do with. I also didn't particularly enjoy learning about all the different types of headache and how to sort them out and treat them. I know that's an integral part of being both a Neurologist and a PCP, so there's a chance based on that and other things that I may not be interested in FM either.

I also really disliked Endocrine, and MSK. So Endocrinology and anything Ortho are probably out.

And so far in year two I liked Gyn but severely disliked OB so I think OB/Gyn is out at this point.

I'm also spending time in a FM clinic each week seeing patients. And while I came into med school thinking I might really enjoy FM, all the med-check appointments really get monotonous.

So based on that, so far my interests are Cardiology, Pulmonology, Nephrology, Gastroenterology, I'm excited for our upcoming Hematology course, I've also got some curiosity about Derm. And I've also liked the Pathology instruction quite a bit.

Based on previous experience I don't think I've got any interest in Surgery (I find it boring and monotonous more often than not) even though Anatomy is probably my strongest subject. I also think I'd get bored with Radiology. Reading films as an internist or IM sub-specialist would more than scratch any itch I'd have there.

I think that it's clear that I'm heading strongly towards IM, with an eye for some sort of fellowship afterward. That would tic all the boxes for me.

Hey SLC, do you go to Western? If so, could you pm me what you think about your experience there? Thanks

 

[cliquesh]

T

Thanks for the Frky. But isn't just learning about in the text book vastly different than say treating it or actually working in that field? You hated cancer section in the textbook, but what if you really love working with patients that have cancer? Or say you found anatomy just ok, but you might love working/lifestyle of a radiologist?

My guess is that you are never sure unless you rotate through those specialties, or am I guessing wrong?

You never know until your try it. That is why early 4th year electives are important. I had electives from June 1st to October 31st. The first day acgme applications can be sent out is September 15th.

 

[toxicwombat]

Hey SLC, do you go to Western? If so, could you pm me what you think about your experience there? Thanks

No, he goes to ATSU-SOMA.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Thanks for the Frky. But isn't just learning about in the text book vastly different than say treating it or actually working in that field? You hated cancer section in the textbook, but what if you really love working with patients that have cancer? Or say you found anatomy just ok, but you might love working/lifestyle of a radiologist?

My guess is that you are never sure unless you rotate through those specialties, or am I guessing wrong?

like SLC said, sure it can change, but conceptually, how much? I love anatomy, but i hate the head and face. Too many delicate items. And we have alternating groups on cadavers and I don't know how often I hoping that the other group cut away all the skin and fascia because that stuff sucks. Then i think about going into plastic surgery and think, "well i hate doing that on cadavers, cosmetic plastic surgery probably isn't for me since it will be a large part of it." Small stuff like that. Yes I could change my mind, but you see a little bit each time so when you do go into third and fourth year you have a better idea of what subjects you enjoyed in school and what subjects you loathed and that can help guide you into fields. plus, you rotate to almost everything in your third year.

 

[toxicwombat]

like SLC said, sure it can change, but conceptually, how much? I love anatomy, but i hate the head and face. Too many delicate items. And we have alternating groups on cadavers and I don't know how often I hoping that the other group cut away all the skin and fascia because that stuff sucks. Then i think about going into plastic surgery and think, "well i hate doing that on cadavers, cosmetic plastic surgery probably isn't for me since it will be a large part of it." Small stuff like that. Yes I could change my mind, but you see a little bit each time so when you do go into third and fourth year you have a better idea of what subjects you enjoyed in school and what subjects you loathed and that can help guide you into fields. plus, you rotate to almost everything in your third year.

Much appreciated, Frky -- thank you.

 

[DocRooster]

Hey, thanks for this thread. I've been wondering about this for a while.
( "medical student" status change because I'm too impatient to wait for July)

Third year rotation lock is one of the only things that irks me about my school. I was hoping it was only an unknowledgable worry, and not an actual problem. It takes quite some time and thought for some of us to decide on these things. It's nice that the class info can give you somewhat of an idea.
A question, though: doesn't the clinical presentation curriculum at ATSU-SOMA do a little more to help you decide?

Folks that have studied under other styles:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=558618 make no mention of it. I've been warned to stop bumping up old threads, so I can't ask them. And, they already had a good idea of their desired field, I'm guessing.
I'm not bashing the curriculum, mind you. Following a patient from diagnosis to treatment is exactly what I like. Specifically trauma. I like hands-on anatomy AND non-procedural medicine. But, one single person can't do that, in specialized US medicine. Besides, I learn more and retain better with traditional curriculum, and SOMA decided they didn't like my interview. So....?

Anticipate trauma surgery and try to steal patient contact time from ED?
Subspecialize in wilderness emergency medicine and run housecalls in Alaska, where ortho and plastics might not be available?
Any way to still work in medicine without being a second-rate surgeon?

 

[corpsman33]

like SLC said, sure it can change, but conceptually, how much? I love anatomy, but i hate the head and face. Too many delicate items. And we have alternating groups on cadavers and I don't know how often I hoping that the other group cut away all the skin and fascia because that stuff sucks. Then i think about going into plastic surgery and think, "well i hate doing that on cadavers, cosmetic plastic surgery probably isn't for me since it will be a large part of it." Small stuff like that. Yes I could change my mind, but you see a little bit each time so when you do go into third and fourth year you have a better idea of what subjects you enjoyed in school and what subjects you loathed and that can help guide you into fields. plus, you rotate to almost everything in your third year.

I freakin' hate anatomy lab (almost done woooooohooooo), but I am not sure you can compare cutting on cadavers to performing cosmetic surgery. Don't get me wrong, I have wondered the very same thing over and over thinking to myself "well if I hate dissection so much I will probably hate surgery", but I don't think it translates the same. In the anatomy lab your body is filled with formaldehyde and all of the structures look nothing like they would in a fresh body, etc. etc.

But I do get what you are saying, as you go through medical school you kind of learn what peaks your interests and what things you abhor. I would still, however, prefer a school that allowed you more electives during third year to confirm your suspicions.

 

[cabinbuilder]

:
Anticipate trauma surgery and try to steal patient contact time from ED?
Subspecialize in wilderness emergency medicine and run housecalls in Alaska, where ortho and plastics might not be available?
Any way to still work in medicine without being a second-rate surgeon?

Don't do housecalls in Alaska - you will be too busy in clinic and covering ER. Where I am, ortho is not readily available but they do visit once a month. I do my own casts and splints and don't really see anything that I can't handle as FP. Of course the biggest fear is the nursing home patients falling and breaking a hip so those patients would have to me medevaced out. Largest issue I face is patients with vascular compromise and trying to find a larger facility to get an angiogram and intervention.

Plastics in Alaska is reserved for the larger centers. If you do rural ED then anything that would require plastics, i.e. severe burns get flown out anyway. Of course facial lacerations you would do yourself.



Any way to still work in medicine without being a second-rate surgeon?[ Not sure what you mean by this??

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Don't do housecalls in Alaska - you will be too busy in clinic and covering ER. Where I am, ortho is not readily available but they do visit once a month. I do my own casts and splints and don't really see anything that I can't handle as FP. Of course the biggest fear is the nursing home patients falling and breaking a hip so those patients would have to me medevaced out. Largest issue I face is patients with vascular compromise and trying to find a larger facility to go an angiogram and intervention.

Plastics in Alaska is reserved for the larger centers. If you do rural ED then anything that would require plastics, i.e. severe burns get flown out anyway. Of course facial lacerations you would do yourself.



Any way to still work in medicine without being a second-rate surgeon?[ Not sure what you mean by this??

Jack of all trades. I'm in love with Alaska already.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Jack of all trades. I'm in love with Alaska already.

I did the same in rural Texas, Nevada, Montana, Colorado, and Oregon

 

[DocRooster]

I'll reword my question. I don't blame you for misunderstanding it!

Basically, the following quote I found is a pretty good description of me and what I like. Unfortunately, its from 2003. I've been reading (and seeing during shadowing) that trauma surgery is being (or has already been) phased out or used as paperwork monkeys, as he mentions at the end. I'm wondering if there's anything else I can do to have the same modus operandi.

I started med school thinking I would do emergency medicine. Currently I'm interviewing for general surgery residency slots, and will likely follow that with a trauma fellowship.

So what made me change my mind? First and foremost, I realized that I don't want a career that keeps me out of the OR. Second, when I was thinking about what being an ER physician at a large hosptial would be like, I was thinking mostly of trauma, with a few heart attacks and strokes thrown in. My school has a very active emergency medicine interest group and through my participation in that I learned all the drawbacks of that specialty. Bottom line is I don't have the patience to deal with those. Most notably, most of an ER docs time is spent dealing with minor problems that really aren't emergencies. Patients will come to the ER at 2am on Sat morning with a cough, sore throat, pain in the knee, or some other thing that has been going on for weeks and then they become irate because they have to wait while you deal with the chest pain patients. There is a huge debate among insurance companies (who don't want to pay for an ER visit for a non emergency, and rightly so) vs hospitals, who want to be reimbursed for everything, contending that the lay person can't tell what is and is not an emergency (I say that any idiot should know that a cough of 6 weeks duration is NOT and emergency). Plus ER docs are on a salary, often employees of the hosptial, and can be dismissed if too many patients complain about you (and the complaint could be bogus like you didn't apologize profusely enough to the patient who comes in with the 6 week old cough at 2 am and had to wait 3 hours)

That plus the fact that the trauma surgeon is in charge of the trauma in the trauma bay, as well as the fact that you take them to the OR and fix the problem and manage non operative trauma in the ICU, put me into the trauma camp. It also worked out that I like other kinds of surgery as well. And I like the ICU. So if you are thinking that you may do trauma surgery, realize that much of trauma is non operative, and becoming increasingly more so. Also, the surgey board is looking at changing the ways to shorten the duration of training by going to a 4+2 program..4 years of general surgery and 2 years of some specialty. In the case of trauma, it may turn out to be trauma and emergency surgery and would include the appys, perforated colons, ulcers, etc. This is NOT definite yet and is a considerable source of debate in surgery circles (as well as interesting conversation during interviews)

If you are trying to decide between the two, talk to as many folks in both fields as you can. Also ask yourself the question, "How would I feel if I never got to go to the OR again?" after you do your surgery rotation. That should help you decide.

Laugh if you care to. As he asks, I KNOW I cannot live happily without doing surgery. My undergrad major allowed me to perform abdominal surgery on live adult pigs. Splenectomies, hystorectomies, cholesystectomies, etc, manage airway and anaesthesia, the whole shebang except post-op care. (I think the staff just ate them...but they were still alive when they left my table!)
But, I also loved the patient interaction of PC from shadowing. EMT/military makes me miss the pace of the ED, and a driving desire to help some of the things I've seen. (And I have seen a lot.) I even like clinical research and drug trials (what the pigs were actually for). A little boring, but I like the mental puzzle. I like some of the IM subspecialties and neurology, but don't want to spend my life doing it.

I like to solve the puzzle, and put it together myself. Not watch someone else have all the fun. Am I screwed? Will I have time to find something to replace my dream, having third year rotations locked by the school? Does my dream job even exist, anymore?

 

[cabinbuilder]

Laugh if you care to. As he asks, I KNOW I cannot live happily without doing surgery. My undergrad major allowed me to perform abdominal surgery on live adult pigs. Splenectomies, hystorectomies, cholesystectomies, etc, manage airway and anaesthesia, the whole shebang except post-op care. (I think the staff just ate them...but they were still alive when they left my table!)
But, I also loved the patient interaction of PC from shadowing. EMT/military makes me miss the pace of the ED, and a driving desire to help some of the things I've seen. (And I have seen a lot.) I even like clinical research and drug trials (what the pigs were actually for). A little boring, but I like the mental puzzle. I like some of the IM subspecialties and neurology, but don't want to spend my life doing it.

I like to solve the puzzle, and put it together myself. Not watch someone else have all the fun. Am I screwed? Will I have time to find something to replace my dream, having third year rotations locked by the school? Does my dream job even exist, anymore?

Sounds like you need to do a general surgery residency then work in a rural area where YOU ARE THE ONLY SURGEON or work it out where you would travel to multiple rural hospitals for say a week at a time and do elective cases that you would expect to be uncomplicated. Or go into a surgery subspecialty like colo-rectal, or surgical oncology, or neuro surgery, or bariatrics for supermorbidity (not just lap bands), or transplant.

There is a fit out there for everyone and I don't think you need to obsess that you wont get enough expose due to the lack of one third year rotation. Just doesn't really work that way.

 

[DocRooster]

Ok, thank you.

I have been looking at Walter Reed, BAMC and such. Being an OIF vet, I could give back. It would be a very nice career transition. And the work they do for overseas populace sounds incredibly fun. But, the civilian life has an appeal after being deployed...a few times. Trying to find an alternative.

Are there still places like that, that you mentioned? Where are we talking? Appalachia or deep in the butthole of Guatamala? Please don't say the middle of a Nevada desert. My wife is from snowy Poland; it would be her last straw. Where do I find this data without actually being there?
Neurosurg sounds...ooooo... But, no way I'm that intelligent. Crazy enough, yes.

Thank you for your help. I've wanted to talk with you for a few years now, but was afraid you wouldnt take me seriously until I was accepted. I like to have these things figured out early, so I have time to neurotically worry about other things. Also, I totally do not have a man-crush and totally not secretly wishing you would invite me to experience medicine in Alaska and possibly shoot a bear to make into a coat. That would be just dumb.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Ok, thank you.

I have been looking at Walter Reed, BAMC and such. Being an OIF vet, I could give back. It would be a very nice career transition. And the work they do for overseas populace sounds incredibly fun. But, the civilian life has an appeal after being deployed...a few times. Trying to find an alternative.

Are there still places like that, that you mentioned? Where are we talking? Appalachia or deep in the butthole of Guatamala? Please don't say the middle of a Nevada desert. My wife is from snowy Poland; it would be her last straw. Where do I find this data without actually being there?
Neurosurg sounds...ooooo... But, no way I'm that intelligent. Crazy enough, yes.

Thank you for your help. I've wanted to talk with you for a few years now, but was afraid you wouldnt take me seriously until I was accepted. I like to have these things figured out early, so I have time to neurotically worry about other things. Also, I totally do not have a man-crush and totally not secretly wishing you would invite me to experience medicine in Alaska and possibly shoot a bear to make into a coat. That would be just dumb.

See my post a few replies above. rural Texas, Nevada, Montana, Colorado, and Oregon and of course Alaska. I'm sure the same would be for Minnesota, Wisconsin, ND, SD, Upper Michigan. As I will say again things usually fall into place like they are supposed to and trying to plan out the future too far ahead especially in medicine is just setting yourself up for disappointment. Walter Reed is far from rural so you better be the specialist and not the generalist. No one has the perfect job or the perfect day every day. No specialty has that OMG it's glorious every day reality. I have done the middle of the Nevada desert - its really not nice but the pay was wicked high.

Trust me while I can cook a 4 course dinner on a camp fire and used to tote a 44 mag to my mom's cabin, I am so beyond the romance of Alaska and the last place you would ever find me is out in the woods tracking a grizzly bear even though it's pretty easy to do where I am located now. My definition of fun is Vegas at the spa. I like my curling iron too much. Of course I could always arrange a med student visit but don't expect much beyond the doors of the ER.

 

[Mosonik]

Ok, thank you.

I have been looking at Walter Reed, BAMC and such. Being an OIF vet, I could give back. It would be a very nice career transition. And the work they do for overseas populace sounds incredibly fun. But, the civilian life has an appeal after being deployed...a few times. Trying to find an alternative.

Are there still places like that, that you mentioned? Where are we talking? Appalachia or deep in the butthole of Guatamala? Please don't say the middle of a Nevada desert. My wife is from snowy Poland; it would be her last straw. Where do I find this data without actually being there?
Neurosurg sounds...ooooo... But, no way I'm that intelligent. Crazy enough, yes.

Thank you for your help. I've wanted to talk with you for a few years now, but was afraid you wouldnt take me seriously until I was accepted. I like to have these things figured out early, so I have time to neurotically worry about other things. Also, I totally do not have a man-crush and totally not secretly wishing you would invite me to experience medicine in Alaska and possibly shoot a bear to make into a coat. That would be just dumb.

To have a man crush SHE would have to be a man LOL
gotta love SDN

 

[cabinbuilder]

To have a man crush SHE would have to be a man LOL
gotta love SDN

Yes, and I don't think his Polish wife would be too pleased!!!

 

[zoner]

T

You never know until your try it. That is why early 4th year electives are important. I had electives from June 1st to October 31st. The first day acgme applications can be sent out is September 15th.

So June is when the 4th year start? So if you sent out your app 9/15 why were you doing your rotation till 10/31? Also how many auditions are people allow to do during those time? Is there board that you have to prepare for during that time as well?

 

[cabinbuilder]

So June is when the 4th year start? So if you sent out your app 9/15 why were you doing your rotation till 10/31? Also how many auditions are people allow to do during those time? Is there board that you have to prepare for during that time as well?

Yes, 4th year starts in June. Just because you put in your applications for residency doesn't mean the rotations stop. I had 4th year rotations all the way through May. Graduated in June, had 2 weeks to move and started residency July 1st. Hopefully you have figured out your life by then. You should take step II at the end of third year so 4th years rotations don't get in the way of anything. The match isn't until February so you really have up through that time to be doing your audition rotations. After the match the end of 4th year is generally pretty lax but you still have to show up and pass everything.

Depending on what specialty you are looking at I think many students do 1-3 audition rotations. Definitely do one where you are looking at residency so they know who you are.

 

[zoner]

Yes, 4th year starts in June. Just because you put in your applications for residency doesn't mean the rotations stop. I had 4th year rotations all the way through May. Graduated in June, had 2 weeks to move and started residency July 1st. Hopefully you have figured out your life by then. You should take step II at the end of third year so 4th years rotations don't get in the way of anything. The match isn't until February so you really have up through that time to be doing your audition rotations. After the match the end of 4th year is generally pretty lax but you still have to show up and pass everything.

Depending on what specialty you are looking at I think many students do 1-3 audition rotations. Definitely do one where you are looking at residency so they know who you are.

you mean 1-3 auditioning from the month of June to October? So when should you do electives to figure out what you want to audition int?

 

[DocRooster]

She beats me because she loves me.

Really expected there to be more organization than this in medicine. Somewhere in this clusterfxk is a really great job. Guess for now a bad plan is better than no plan. Thanks

 

[MedPR]

Hey SLC, do you go to Western? If so, could you pm me what you think about your experience there? Thanks

He goes to SOMA.

Anyway, my girlfriend had ideas of what she wanted to do based on the material she learned M1/M2 and general knowledge about each specialty. She, for example, wants to do GI because she likes the balance between procedures and patient care/continuity of care. As a med student you can pretty much setup any shadowing you want. Take advantage of that. At her school M3s don't get electives but there are student interest groups, clinics, and other ways to get involved with specialties you may be interested in.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[cabinbuilder]

you mean 1-3 auditioning from the month of June to October? So when should you do electives to figure out what you want to audition int?

No, June to February. That's 9 months!!!!! DO rotations are only 4 weeks long per rotation cycle. It's not that hard.

Say you want to do some type of surgery.
You can do an away rotation for a surgical selective
An away for for core surgery or elective
An away for rural/underserved - say do an inner city, county hospital surgery rotation; or got rural Montana/Nevada/Alaska/North Dakota,etc with a travelling surgeon.

That's 3 rotations off the bat. It's not that hard if you plan and you have some type of idea what you want to do by mid third year. At least you should know what you hate.

Just remember that NO ONE is going to choose your rotations for you. You have have to be organized and aggressive. That's one of the reason's I liked LECOM because they approve rotations just about anywhere. I did gneral surgery in Albuquerque, NM; radiology in Las Vegas; Oncology, Family Practice, General Surgery, IM, and Underserved with Indian healthe service in Fairbanks, AK.

 

[zoner]

He goes to SOMA.

Anyway, my girlfriend had ideas of what she wanted to do based on the material she learned M1/M2 and general knowledge about each specialty. She, for example, wants to do GI because she likes the balance between procedures and patient care/continuity of care. As a med student you can pretty much setup any shadowing you want. Take advantage of that. At her school M3s don't get electives but there are student interest groups, clinics, and other ways to get involved with specialties you may be interested in.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

thanks for that.

Yes, 4th year starts in June. Just because you put in your applications for residency doesn't mean the rotations stop. I had 4th year rotations all the way through May. Graduated in June, had 2 weeks to move and started residency July 1st. Hopefully you have figured out your life by then. You should take step II at the end of third year so 4th years rotations don't get in the way of anything. The match isn't until February so you really have up through that time to be doing your audition rotations. After the match the end of 4th year is generally pretty lax but you still have to show up and pass everything.

Depending on what specialty you are looking at I think many students do 1-3 audition rotations. Definitely do one where you are looking at residency so they know who you are.

No, June to February. That's 9 months!!!!! DO rotations are only 4 weeks long per rotation cycle. It's not that hard.

Say you want to do some type of surgery.
You can do an away rotation for a surgical selective
An away for for core surgery or elective
An away for rural/underserved - say do an inner city, county hospital surgery rotation; or got rural Montana/Nevada/Alaska/North Dakota,etc with a travelling surgeon.

That's 3 rotations off the bat. It's not that hard if you plan and you have some type of idea what you want to do by mid third year. At least you should know what you hate.

Just remember that NO ONE is going to choose your rotations for you. You have have to be organized and aggressive. That's one of the reason's I liked LECOM because they approve rotations just about anywhere. I did gneral surgery in Albuquerque, NM; radiology in Las Vegas; Oncology, Family Practice, General Surgery, IM, and Underserved with Indian healthe service in Fairbanks, AK.

thanks for trying to help me with this, but i guess i am still bit confused as to these:

1) if you are starting your auditioning the July of your fourth year, that means that you should have figured out what you want to specialize in. Is that right? So what is the point of having all those electives during your fourth year if not for using it really as auditioning because by the time you start applying and what not, you really only have June to Oct to really figure out what you want to specialize in if you haven't figured it out by then. Am I correct on this? So say I was never exposed to Urology surgery, Ortho surgery, radiology, anesthesiology, PM&R and etc.., would I have to try to do these electives during the months of June to Oct and then apply to the specialty which I became interested in and then do auditioning at various different places till Feb?


2) For those 9 months of chance to rotate, why do people usually do 1-3 auditioning? Why not to 9 or 18 since it sounds like you can do it for two weeks at a time.

 

[Ost3oclast]

No, June to February. That's 9 months!!!!! DO rotations are only 4 weeks long per rotation cycle. It's not that hard.

Say you want to do some type of surgery.
You can do an away rotation for a surgical selective
An away for for core surgery or elective
An away for rural/underserved - say do an inner city, county hospital surgery rotation; or got rural Montana/Nevada/Alaska/North Dakota,etc with a travelling surgeon.

That's 3 rotations off the bat. It's not that hard if you plan and you have some type of idea what you want to do by mid third year. At least you should know what you hate.

Just remember that NO ONE is going to choose your rotations for you. You have have to be organized and aggressive. That's one of the reason's I liked LECOM because they approve rotations just about anywhere. I did gneral surgery in Albuquerque, NM; radiology in Las Vegas; Oncology, Family Practice, General Surgery, IM, and Underserved with Indian healthe service in Fairbanks, AK.

You rotated in Albuquerque? That's awesome. I know its been awhile but How difficult was it for you to set up your rotation there? (I'm from NM and will be attending AZCOM) I would like to rotate there if possible when the time comes.

 

[cabinbuilder]

thanks for that.







thanks for trying to help me with this, but i guess i am still bit confused as to these:

1) if you are starting your auditioning the July of your fourth year, that means that you should have figured out what you want to specialize in. Is that right? So what is the point of having all those electives during your fourth year if not for using it really as auditioning because by the time you start applying and what not, you really only have June to Oct to really figure out what you want to specialize in if you haven't figured it out by then. Am I correct on this? So say I was never exposed to Urology surgery, Ortho surgery, radiology, anesthesiology, PM&R and etc.., would I have to try to do these electives during the months of June to Oct and then apply to the specialty which I became interested in and then do auditioning at various different places till Feb?


2) For those 9 months of chance to rotate, why do people usually do 1-3 auditioning? Why not to 9 or 18 since it sounds like you can do it for two weeks at a time.

OMG you are making my head hurt. Surgery is surgery. You get enough radiology on all the other rotations esp. ER where you are looking at your own films anyway. PM&R is just glorified Physical Therapy, Anesthesia you get during surgery. There is plenty of downtime during hte OR set up to get anesthesia exposure. You realy are making this too hard and you aren't even in medical school yet.

Not every rotation can be split into two weeks. An do you really want to fork out travelling money to different sites to do more than 3 auditions? The school does not cover your travel or housing or rotation fees to an unapproved site. If you have more questions just PM me your phone number and I will call you.

 

[cabinbuilder]

You rotated in Albuquerque? That's awesome. I know its been awhile but How difficult was it for you to set up your rotation there? (I'm from NM and will be attending AZCOM) I would like to rotate there if possible when the time comes.

It was not that difficult. I just contacted the rotation office at the hospital. They have a list of residents who rent out rooms and its up to you to set that up yourself. It's also up to you to do all the required paperwork and make sure your malpractice policy is in place etc. You have to pay your own travel to and from.

 

[Ost3oclast]

It was not that difficult. I just contacted the rotation office at the hospital. They have a list of residents who rent out rooms and its up to you to set that up yourself. It's also up to you to do all the required paperwork and make sure your malpractice policy is in place etc. You have to pay your own travel to and from.

Cool thanks!!! Any other DO students there or was it just you?

 

[cabinbuilder]

Cool thanks!!! Any other DO students there or was it just you?

Just me

 

[ValentineLissar]

Thanks cabinbuilder for your awesome responses! I'm learning a lot and I really appreciate your patience and thoughtful answers.

 

[cliquesh]

So June is when the 4th year start? So if you sent out your app 9/15 why were you doing your rotation till 10/31? Also how many auditions are people allow to do during those time? Is there board that you have to prepare for during that time as well?

Yea, 4th year starts in June. The first day you can apply to Acgme programs is September 15, but a particular program may not look at applications until mid November. So, as long as you rotate at a place before they reject you, it doesn't really matter when you rotate there.

I had 5 electives during that time. 3 in my field, 1 research, and 1 completely different. In general, you should only do 2 or 3 electives in your choosen field because it makes you look less rounded or some crap. This may not be true for some really competitive AOA residencies, like orthopedics, because these places will not invite you unless you rotate there. Also, for the future, in general, you want two LORs from people in your field and then one from someone in a related field.

When people say audition rotations they just mean electives at places you want to go.
I had a 2.5 week break between 3rd and 4th year to take boards.

 

[DocRooster]

there are student interest groups, clinics, and other ways

Go on...
Elaborate on these mysterious "other ways".

 

[cliquesh]

You rotated in Albuquerque? That's awesome. I know its been awhile but How difficult was it for you to set up your rotation there? (I'm from NM and will be attending AZCOM) I would like to rotate there if possible when the time comes.

On VSAS, https://www.aamc.org/students/medstudents/vsas/, there are 75 different electives offered at university of new Mexico and they are all open to DOs.

 

[AnesApp]

thanks for that.







thanks for trying to help me with this, but i guess i am still bit confused as to these:

1) if you are starting your auditioning the July of your fourth year, that means that you should have figured out what you want to specialize in. Is that right? So what is the point of having all those electives during your fourth year if not for using it really as auditioning because by the time you start applying and what not, you really only have June to Oct to really figure out what you want to specialize in if you haven't figured it out by then. Am I correct on this? So say I was never exposed to Urology surgery, Ortho surgery, radiology, anesthesiology, PM&R and etc.., would I have to try to do these electives during the months of June to Oct and then apply to the specialty which I became interested in and then do auditioning at various different places till Feb?


2) For those 9 months of chance to rotate, why do people usually do 1-3 auditioning? Why not to 9 or 18 since it sounds like you can do it for two weeks at a time.

Well when people pick specialities they generally have a pre existing interested in a field before even starting medical school. It is true that some people do get interested in a field during 1st and 2nd year, But generally basic sciences are very different than clinical sciences. For example I loved neuroanatomy but hate neurology.

One of the biggest things when applying is your board score. So for example if you wanted to do Dermatology, but did not excel on your boards. It is highly unlikely you will match, so you have to pick something realistic. That helps you cut down on your choices. For some students things like money, prestige and lifestyle matter which narrows your choices.

People really zero in on the field 3rd year of med school. Most students end up doing a residency which is core rotations 3rd year (internal,fp, pysch,peds, ob, surgery). You kind of get a sense of what you want to do. 3rd year electives do help you pick field like ER (which I think is a core in some school), Anesthesia, rads etc. When most people pick 3rd year elective they have an inclining they will enjoy it. There are a few people in July when 4th year starts who don't know what they want to do. Usually they still will have general idea and have narrowed it down to 2 fields. They tend to use electives to see what they like. This will probably hurt you as an applicant.

I have meet some people who still don't know what they want to and are interns (in a transitional year programs, preliminary medicine or surgery). I have also met a lot of residents changing fields during the interview season. They are some attendings that go back to residency and changed fields. But this is not optimal, less common.

Generally though, you already have an idea what each field does, alot people decide what they want to do without even a doing a rotation in it. You do not necessarily get exposure to every field. I did not have any exposure to neurosurgery, optho, derm but it is what it is. I did not think that was the right field for me even though I have limited exposure.

So the answer is it varies between people about finding out what field you want to get into. Most med students change their mind several times during med school.

Hope that helps

 

[zoner]

Thanks cabinbuilder for your awesome responses! I'm learning a lot and I really appreciate your patience and thoughtful answers.

👍

Thanks everyone for clearing this up. I am very clear now as to what is suppose to happen in between third and fourth year. Special thanks to Cabinbuilder for helping me understand this. I really really appreciate your help.

 

[cabinbuilder]

So I just talked with zoner on the phone. I think the confusion is "how do to rotate to all the hospitals for potential residency when you can't do the same rotation at each one?". So the whole key is networking. Most students have an idea of what they want to do by the beginning of 4th year. Hopefully your rotations are lined up to give you the best elective options should you change your mind. The key here is YOU CAN ROTATE AT A HOSPITAL YOU ARE LOOKING AT DOING RESIDENCY AT FOR ANY OF YOUR ROTATIONS. You need to be there, network, get in with the group you are looking to do residency with. If you are on Internal medicine but want to do surgery and say one of your patient's need vascular surgery or a gall bladder or cystoscope, etc. get with the surgeon, ask to scrub into the case and make yourself known and let the surgeons know you are looking at their program. Any advice? Highs, lows, etc. Sometimes you will get a more honest answer when you are on someone else's service. Especially in the cafeteria. NETWORKING is the key.

 

[cabinbuilder]

👍

Thanks everyone for clearing this up. I am very clear now as to what is suppose to happen in between third and fourth year. Special thanks to Cabinbuilder for helping me understand this. I really really appreciate your help.

You are welcome. I am always glad to call and give advice over the phone. Actually met Owlie in person when I was in Oregon a few weeks ago. I had great mentors going in and am usually available to anyone who needs it. Just PM me with your number and I will call when I can.

 

[Ost3oclast]

On VSAS, https://www.aamc.org/students/medstudents/vsas/, there are 75 different electives offered at university of new Mexico and they are all open to DOs.

Solid. Thanks for this!

 

[Life Sucks]

Okay, so I'm about to embark on to my second semester of my freshman year, but I didn't get a chance to take Bio 1 or Chem 1. because of some my university on accident restrected my hours.Since it's not offered next semster either. After talking to my advisor, I asked her should I take Bio and Chem 2nd semester, she said no and thought that I'm fine.She said the way I'm going is good since I'll get a good G..P.A, and start out good and finsh my CORE requirements. She also wants me to SDEMP and I'll take Bio 1 and Chem 1 sophmore year.....
What do you guys think I should do...should I do summer school or take classes at another university next year?




.I was suposed to apply for the BA TO MD bridge for Meharry, but I think I can't because of the science requirement, But she I can next year...

 

[coolingglasses]

Okay, so I'm about to embark on to my second semester of my freshman year, but I didn't get a chance to take Bio 1 or Chem 1. because of some my university on accident restrected my hours.Since it's not offered next semster either. After talking to my advisor, I asked her should I take Bio and Chem 2nd semester, she said no and thought that I'm fine.She said the way I'm going is good since I'll get a good G..P.A, and start out good and finsh my CORE requirements. She also wants me to SDEMP and I'll take Bio 1 and Chem 1 sophmore year.....
What do you guys think I should do...should I do summer school or take classes at another university next year?




.I was suposed to apply for the BA TO MD bridge for Meharry, but I think I can't because of the science requirement, But she I can next year...

dude, relax. also, this probably needed its own thread.

 

[DocRooster]

Good point on the networking. How much am I going to have to apologize for thinking you were a man, before you'll introduce me to a few trauma surgeons? Should I buy knee pads, or commision a statue? You have to admit, you're a bit of a unicorn.

We split ways on your premise of come-what-may. Even if my board scores end up in the gutter, I'd at least like to know all the options. Mistakes happen. Personalities differ, etc. With the "one student, one match" thing, it seems like there's one path, on chance to get there. That if you screw it up or didn't anticipate it, you're left in the cold. Everyone keeps talking about how you have to compete harder as a DO student, but they're not saying exactly how to do it. Besides board scores and showing up early. How do you even go about choosing where to rotate? With so many programs and complexities, it's a little overwhelming.
If you spend the time studying for classes and Step 1, you're missing conversations on different programs. By the time you know your score, you basically jump right into rotations. Work hard during each one and keep studying, then jump into the next without time to think about it...by the end it seems like you'd just choose by random. 75 electives in New Mexico? Christ. Try to spend a few hours with your kid, and the single folks will just zoom right past you with a sneer on their faces. Not trying to be melodramatic here, but I want to be a surgeon not a master administrator.
There's not a fast-track program or something? I wouldn't mind getting the shaft somewhat, if it would spare me some of all this strategizing.

 

[cliquesh]

In the Acgme world board scores are the only thing that matter.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Good point on the networking. How much am I going to have to apologize for thinking you were a man, before you'll introduce me to a few trauma surgeons? Should I buy knee pads, or commision a statue? You have to admit, you're a bit of a unicorn.

We split ways on your premise of come-what-may. Even if my board scores end up in the gutter, I'd at least like to know all the options. Mistakes happen. Personalities differ, etc. With the "one student, one match" thing, it seems like there's one path, on chance to get there. That if you screw it up or didn't anticipate it, you're left in the cold. Everyone keeps talking about how you have to compete harder as a DO student, but they're not saying exactly how to do it. Besides board scores and showing up early. How do you even go about choosing where to rotate? With so many programs and complexities, it's a little overwhelming.
If you spend the time studying for classes and Step 1, you're missing conversations on different programs. By the time you know your score, you basically jump right into rotations. Work hard during each one and keep studying, then jump into the next without time to think about it...by the end it seems like you'd just choose by random. 75 electives in New Mexico? Christ. Try to spend a few hours with your kid, and the single folks will just zoom right past you with a sneer on their faces. Not trying to be melodramatic here, but I want to be a surgeon not a master administrator.
There's not a fast-track program or something? I wouldn't mind getting the shaft somewhat, if it would spare me some of all this strategizing.

Dude, chill already. Half of SDN thinks I'm a man. I'm not and that's ok. I think you guys are WAY overthinking everything. Most med students choose residency in the part of the country that they want to eventually live and practice in. It's just easier to only have to move once after medical school. There are lots of factors that make folks decide. You cannot possibly rotate everywhere and you will rotate in hospitals that are required by your medical school and you may just like the atmosphere there.

Sometimes in your mind it doesn't work out but then something happens and you turn out ok. Lets use my story as a prime example. I went all the way through medical school wanting to be a general surgeon. Only rotated one place (NM). I loved it there, they loved me. They asked me to apply. What they didn't tell me was I needed the USMLE to be considered - I didn't take it because I just couldn't justify the cost with 2 little kids at home and just didn't think I needed it. I thought I was a shoe in for NM. Well I applied to about 20 surgery programs, never got an inteview and was left to scramble on match day. I ended up scrambling into an osteopathic Internship in Texas devistated and relieved at the same time. Did intern year and applied in internship for a PGY-2 spot in general surgery and got into a program in NYC. I will say that was the worst mistake of my life, was there a week, cried every single day I was there, was released from that program and went back to TX to finish family practice where I was happy and knew I was wanted. I became chief resident, my family was happy, my husband loved his job at the hospital and I got great all around training. So now I am FP and I gear my practice (locums) to rural places who don't have many providers, do lots of procedures, lots of OMM, do ER, hospitalist, make my own schedule, make lots of money. My kids live where they love their school and our paths cross when they need to.

There is never just one path and you guys need to stop obsessing so much and realize that in the end you are where you need to be.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Dude, chill already. Half of SDN thinks I'm a man. I'm not and that's ok. I think you guys are WAY overthinking everything. Most med students choose residency in the part of the country that they want to eventually live and practice in. It's just easier to only have to move once after medical school. There are lots of factors that make folks decide. You cannot possibly rotate everywhere and you will rotate in hospitals that are required by your medical school and you may just like the atmosphere there.

Sometimes in your mind it doesn't work out but then something happens and you turn out ok. Lets use my story as a prime example. I went all the way through medical school wanting to be a general surgeon. Only rotated one place (NM). I loved it there, they loved me. They asked me to apply. What they didn't tell me was I needed the USMLE to be considered - I didn't take it because I just couldn't justify the cost with 2 little kids at home and just didn't think I needed it. I thought I was a shoe in for NM. Well I applied to about 20 surgery programs, never got an inteview and was left to scramble on match day. I ended up scrambling into an osteopathic Internship in Texas devistated and relieved at the same time. Did intern year and applied in internship for a PGY-2 spot in general surgery and got into a program in NYC. I will say that was the worst mistake of my life, was there a week, cried every single day I was there, was released from that program and went back to TX to finish family practice where I was happy and knew I was wanted. I became chief resident, my family was happy, my husband loved his job at the hospital and I got great all around training. So now I am FP and I gear my practice (locums) to rural places who don't have many providers, do lots of procedures, lots of OMM, do ER, hospitalist, make my own schedule, make lots of money. My kids live where they love their school and our paths cross when they need to.

There is never just one path and you guys need to stop obsessing so much and realize that in the end you are where you need to be.

Wow so you actually thought of pursuing g surg at UNM? Thats actually my dream right now. I have checked and have never seen a DO student in previous residency there. Nice to know they are open to it. I plan on rotating through there for my surg rotation and if my board scores are up to par, applying there for residency.

 

[DocRooster]

[rant]

I mean, this sounds like one of the best things I've read in a long time, that I'd like to be a part of:
http://www.goarmy.com/content/dam/goarmy/downloaded_assets/pdfs/army-general-surgery-offers-unique-experience.pdf
But, I'm barely hanging onto my sanity as it is. That last deployment year was...interesting. And, I'm getting attached to this kid I just made.
There's no other structured program?
The NIH has the clinical research thing, loan repayment for >20 hrs/wk of qualified research. You don't necessarily have to work in Bethesda. But they ARE hiring most specialties for that hospital (3-400 beds or so), and you can combine the research and loan repayment thing. But, the pay is as gruesome as the cost of living and daily commute. Ten years minimum for loan forgiveness, living close to Bethesda? I wouldnt be on deployments, but my family would pay the price.

I see why people strike out on their own, and competition over promising careers/lifestyles, definitely. But I can't help but wonder how much is out there that I'll never hear about, will be kept under the radar, that some other jerk is grabbing. I'm too old to be a world-class expert, not a genius-level clinician expecting a university program in his name. Guys like me aren't going to be contacted, wined-and-dined. Not expecting heaven-on-a-platter, but it would be nice to be happy at some point. Maybe have a moment when my grass is the greenest, at least in my opinion. I'd fight for it, but I have barely any idea where to even begin.

[/rant]

 

[DocRooster]

I hear what you're saying, doc. Blessings in disguise and all that.
But, don't blame me for trying to live like your sig line.

Thanks for being understanding. Seems like you've found an end to the neurosis. Have pity on us. 😳

 

[cabinbuilder]

Wow so you actually thought of pursuing g surg at UNM? Thats actually my dream right now. I have checked and have never seen a DO student in previous residency there. Nice to know they are open to it. I plan on rotating through there for my surg rotation and if my board scores are up to par, applying there for residency.

Yes, sure did. Thought I was a shoe in. Even had two LOR's from surgery faculty including the Director of the surgery dept. Needed that USMLE - they put my app in the trash. Sad but true. Was naive and caught up in the moment and didn't research it well enough.