socialism

[Pain Applicant1]

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No no I actually acknowledge that my peopel are causing a lot of crime. I agree they should go after this people to the fullest including blacks. Trust me I grew up in the ghetto of la and all the crime that happens in good middle and upper class neighborhoods come from low life’s in ghettos. They go and rob or just look for trouble. I feel the best way forward is to in force laws and don’t be empathetic to a group of people. If an immigrant broke a law get out of USA. If an immigrant isn’t assimilating get them out, trust my parents are immigrants and they believe the same stuff. Growing up all immigrants knew that if they get caught then they will go home. They came here for a mission to make money and have stuff in their country if they got deported. But now they think the government will safe them. All I’m asking is to enforce laws and to manage this immigrantion problems in our border states.

I got you. I didn't grow up much differently from you. I wouldn't be surprised if you and I are from the same area. Are you from NYC?

But why go after illegals? They aren't typically the ones causing the crime in this country. Several studies support that their crime rate is lower than that of the average American and they provide a major service to this country. We need them for labor. I have a construction company, and I'm also a farmer, and I'm telling you directly from the front lines that we need this labor. Plus, overall, they are quiet people who mainly want to work and support their families. They know hard work. They know sacrifice. They know commitment. That's the type of person I want as a fellow countryman.

 

[lobelsteve]

I got you. I didn't grow up much differently from you. I wouldn't be surprised if you and I are from the same area. Are you from NYC?

But why go after illegals? They aren't typically the ones causing the crime in this country. Several studies support that their crime rate is lower than that of the average American and they provide a major service to this country. We need them for labor. I have a construction company, and I'm also a farmer, and I'm telling you directly from the front lines that we need this labor. Plus, overall, they are quiet people who mainly want to work and support their families. They know hard work. They know sacrifice. They know commitment. That's the type of person I want as a fellow countryman.

But they do not follow the law of the land.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

But they do not follow the law of the land.

I'll assume you mean by being here illegally, since for the most part, they're not committing other crimes.

What would you have them do? It isn't easy getting a work visa to come here and work because political reasons make being anti immigration popular. What would you do if you needed to support your family? Wouldn't you do the same thing?

What do you want business owners, who depend on this labor to provide the services that you and your family demand, to do? Where will the labor come from?

 

[Lakers$]

I got you. I didn't grow up much differently from you. I wouldn't be surprised if you and I are from the same area. Are you from NYC?

But why go after illegals? They aren't typically the ones causing the crime in this country. Several studies support that their crime rate is lower than that of the average American and they provide a major service to this country. We need them for labor. I have a construction company, and I'm also a farmer, and I'm telling you directly from the front lines that we need this labor. Plus, overall, they are quiet people who mainly want to work and support their families. They know hard work. They know sacrifice. They know commitment. That's the type of person I want as a fellow countryman.

yes I understand this and I agree but at some point we need rules to be follow. Last administration let so many people get in. If the number was 1-3 mil this problem wouldn’t had happen. But this rabbit whole goes into socialism by giving people in general free stuff which leads to higher taxes and a society that doesn’t work. Look at nyc people are not happy. Just the ones that get free stuff are. Kids now18-25 are so naive and dumb to understand basic 12 grade economy class

 

[Pain Applicant1]

yes I understand this and I agree but at some point we need rules to be follow. Last administration let so many people get in. If the number was 1-3 mil this problem wouldn’t had happen. But this rabbit whole goes into socialism by giving people in general free stuff which leads to higher taxes and a society that doesn’t work. Look at nyc people are not happy. Just the ones that get free stuff are. Kids now18-25 are so naive and dumb to understand basic 12 grade economy class

I'm with you, I promise, but I'm telling you it's not the illegal folks who aren't working. Americans don't want to labor. Illegals want to make money. That's why they're here. Many haven't seen their kids for years because they're here supporting them. I won't even miss my kids' school play. They're sacrificing.

On the days I don't see patients, I work these jobs right next to these folks and I'm friends with many of them. We eat together, we hang together, we work together. Y yo puedo practicar my espanol con ellos. They work, I promise. The majority of construction is done by illegal labor in one form or another. This includes construction on gov property. The majority of farming too. If you throw them out, nothing is going to get done. There is a major labor shortage right now and it's only getting worse. Again, I'm telling you directly from the front lines.

We need manpower. People used to say that people are starving in China. Not anymore. Chinese grandparents who were poor rural farmers became a major workforce, and look what happened. They became an economic and manufacturing powerhouse and a world power within a few generations.

My solution would be to take illegal Latinos and train them in the trades. We need plumbers, HVAC, electricians, welders, roofers, mechanics, masons, etc.

If you don't have enough supply, quality goes down, costs go up, and Americans already can't afford housing. What is your solution to this problem?

 

[mille125]

100% of them committed a crime.

Being here illegally whether you like it or not is a civil offense, it is not a criminal one.

The discussion that we were having concerned violent crime.

Again, whether you like it or not, stats show that undocumented persons commit less violent/criminal offenses than native born persons.

 

[mille125]

I'm with you, I promise, but I'm telling you it's not the illegal folks who aren't working. Americans don't want to labor. Illegals want to make money. That's why they're here. Many haven't seen their kids for years because they're here supporting them. I won't even miss my kids' school play. They're sacrificing.

On the days I don't see patients, I work these jobs right next to these folks and I'm friends with many of them. We eat together, we hang together, we work together. Y yo puedo practicar my espanol con ellos. They work, I promise. The majority of construction is done by illegal labor in one form or another. This includes construction on gov property. The majority of farming too. If you throw them out, nothing is going to get done. There is a major labor shortage right now and it's only getting worse. Again, I'm telling you directly from the front lines.

We need manpower. People used to say that people are starving in China. Not anymore. Chinese grandparents who were poor rural farmers became a major workforce, and look what happened. They became an economic and manufacturing powerhouse and a world power within a few generations.

My solution would be to take illegal Latinos and train them in the trades. We need plumbers, HVAC, electricians, welders, roofers, mechanics, masons, etc.

If you don't have enough supply, quality goes down, costs go up, and Americans already can't afford housing. What is your solution to this problem?

That is what I am trying to understand. You say deport all the illegals. Ok done. Now who does the work. If you deport all of the workers, what happens to the economy?

One of my patients explained this situation well. He said "doc, let me tell you the story of my company. I decided I am going to do the right thing and only hire Americans. I asked him what happnened. He said, "doc, I almost lost my business. People kept calling in with ailments. The ones who showed up cut corners and did shotty work. My customers started complaining. I fired them all and hired all "illegals". Haven't locked back since.

Sadly, this is the story. Native born Americans don't want to do this work. They just dont.

 

[lobelsteve]

Being here illegally whether you like it or not is a civil offense, it is not a criminal one.

The discussion that we were having concerned violent crime.

Again, whether you like it or not, stats show that undocumented persons commit less violent/criminal offenses than native born persons.

You sir, are an idiot. (per google)

Illegal immigration involves both civil and criminal offenses depending on the specific action and circumstances. [1]

• Civil Violation: Merely residing in the U.S. without legal authorization (such as overstaying a visa) is generally considered a civil infraction. This is handled by the immigration court system (Executive Office for Immigration Review) and can result in deportation, but not incarceration. [1, 2]
  • Criminal Offense: Unlawfully entering the U.S. without authorization is a federal crime. Under 8 U.S. Code § 1325, improper entry is a misdemeanor for a first offense and a felony for subsequent offenses. Additionally, illegally re-entering the country after being formally deported or removed is a felony under 8 U.S. Code § 1326. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

 

[clubdeac]

 

[Ducttape]

yes I understand this and I agree but at some point we need rules to be follow. Last administration let so many people get in. If the number was 1-3 mil this problem wouldn’t had happen. But this rabbit whole goes into socialism by giving people in general free stuff which leads to higher taxes and a society that doesn’t work. Look at nyc people are not happy. Just the ones that get free stuff are. Kids now18-25 are so naive and dumb to understand basic 12 grade economy class

pretty much everything in this statement is wrong.

the biden admin did not let people in - they came in. yes im sure you'll post misleading facts that "he opened the borders' even though he continued trump policies such as Title 42.

the biden admin also expelled/ deported far more people than the 2 trump administrations combined, 4.4 million compared to 2.2 million (yes, 4 years compared to 5). additionally, in 2020, trump deported 608k. the year after, biden deported 1,334k.

study after study shows that illegal immigrants do not get social security, do not get federal medicare, do not get free stuff other than pregnant women and babies, and contribute far more to taxes than they "get" from a federal system that does not recognize them.



im not in NYC, but in NY. the majority of NYC residents approve of Mamdani as of April. the majority do think NYC is heading in the wrong direction, but that has improved from 2025 to 2026.

Home of the Marist Poll | Polls, Analysis, Learning, and More

The Marist Institute for Public Opinion (MIPO) is a survey research center. MIPO is home to the Marist Poll and conducts polls on politics, the economy, sports, technology and more at the local, state, and national level.

maristpoll.marist.edu

• A majority of adults (56%) say things in New York City are moving in the right direction. 43% say they are moving in the wrong direction. There has been a large shift since October of 2025 when just 31% of residents citywide thought the city was on track. 66%, at that time, said it was off course.

the majority also approve or are neutral of mamdani.

Nearly half of New York City residents (48%) approve of the job Mayor Mamdani is doing in office, and 30% disapprove, resulting in a net positive of 18 percentage points. A notable 23% are unsure about how to rate his job performance. 25% of residents strongly approve of Mamdani’s job performance while 21% strongly disapprove.

now its still early in his term.

after all,

Mamdani, however, underperforms his predecessor, Eric Adams, in the months leading up to Adams’ first 100 days in 2022. 61% of city residents approved of Adams’ job performance, 24% disapproved, and 15% were unsure.

 

[mille125]

You sir, are an idiot. (per google)

Illegal immigration involves both civil and criminal offenses depending on the specific action and circumstances. [1]

• Civil Violation: Merely residing in the U.S. without legal authorization (such as overstaying a visa) is generally considered a civil infraction. This is handled by the immigration court system (Executive Office for Immigration Review) and can result in deportation, but not incarceration. [1, 2]
  • Criminal Offense: Unlawfully entering the U.S. without authorization is a federal crime. Under 8 U.S. Code § 1325, improper entry is a misdemeanor for a first offense and a felony for subsequent offenses. Additionally, illegally re-entering the country after being formally deported or removed is a felony under 8 U.S. Code § 1326. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

You sir as the king of name calling and as the king of google should go back to google and type in "do most illegal immigrants enter illegally or enter legally and overstay their visa.

 

[Lakers$]

pretty much everything in this statement is wrong.

the biden admin did not let people in - they came in. yes im sure you'll post misleading facts that "he opened the borders' even though he continued trump policies such as Title 42.

the biden admin also expelled/ deported far more people than the 2 trump administrations combined, 4.4 million compared to 2.2 million (yes, 4 years compared to 5). additionally, in 2020, trump deported 608k. the year after, biden deported 1,334k.

study after study shows that illegal immigrants do not get social security, do not get federal medicare, do not get free stuff other than pregnant women and babies, and contribute far more to taxes than they "get" from a federal system that does not recognize them.



im not in NYC, but in NY. the majority of NYC residents approve of Mamdani as of April. the majority do think NYC is heading in the wrong direction, but that has improved from 2025 to 2026.

Home of the Marist Poll | Polls, Analysis, Learning, and More

The Marist Institute for Public Opinion (MIPO) is a survey research center. MIPO is home to the Marist Poll and conducts polls on politics, the economy, sports, technology and more at the local, state, and national level.

maristpoll.marist.edu

the majority also approve or are neutral of mamdani.


now its still early in his term.

after all,

I respectfully disagree. Idk what state your from but they did bring over 20 million people. In cali they allowed 10 million illegals in 4 years. It was the crossing and the rules they changed. They allowed them to go through the jail system then the people lied that they were going death treats and the Biden administration let them come in. To be honest here in cali the purpose was to vote. **** is crazy out here with voting. It all makes sense.

 

[mille125]

You sir, are an idiot. (per google)

Illegal immigration involves both civil and criminal offenses depending on the specific action and circumstances. [1]

• Civil Violation: Merely residing in the U.S. without legal authorization (such as overstaying a visa) is generally considered a civil infraction. This is handled by the immigration court system (Executive Office for Immigration Review) and can result in deportation, but not incarceration. [1, 2]
  • Criminal Offense: Unlawfully entering the U.S. without authorization is a federal crime. Under 8 U.S. Code § 1325, improper entry is a misdemeanor for a first offense and a felony for subsequent offenses. Additionally, illegally re-entering the country after being formally deported or removed is a felony under 8 U.S. Code § 1326. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

You always seem to come out with more name calling and bellicose terms whenever I mention something less flattering about the Israeli govt in another post. I am sorry that it bothers you but you are going to have to get over it.

 

[lobelsteve]

You always seem to come out with more name calling and bellicose terms whenever I mention something less flattering about the Israeli govt in another post. I am sorry that it bothers you but you are going to have to get over it.

I’m only responding to your level of stupidity and the individual posts. You bend over backwards to change a illegal immigration to those who came here via different methods.

 

[Ducttape]

I respectfully disagree. Idk what state your from but they did bring over 20 million people. In cali they allowed 10 million illegals in 4 years. It was the crossing and the rules they changed. They allowed them to go through the jail system then the people lied that they were going death treats and the Biden administration let them come in. To be honest here in cali the purpose was to vote. **** is crazy out here with voting. It all makes sense.

this is FoxNews and MAGA broadcasting.

you have been fed lies and fake news.

Fact Check: Did 20 Million Illegal Immigrants Enter US Under Joe Biden?

The undocumented immigrant population in the United States reached 14 million in 2023, according to Pew Research Center.

www.newsweek.com

Fact Check: Did 20M undocumented immigrants enter US under Biden?

Donald Trump and his White House officials stated that the administration planned to review all migrant cases approved under Biden administration

news.meaww.com

Ten million migrants did not get 9 million jobs under Biden

The Biden-Harris administration “brought over” 10 million migrants who got 9 million jobs.

www.politifact.com

undocumented people in California are not allowed, have never been allowed to vote in state or federal elections.

there is no law change in the books and no proposed laws that i could find that requested undocumented people being allowed to vote.

Election and Voting for Undocumented Immigrants in California

Election and Voting for Undocumented Immigrants: dates, deadlines, ID and registration rules, and where to cast your ballot in California for 2026.

www.stateregstoday.com

please stop watching foxnews. please stop listening to maga. its poisoning your brain.

 

[Lakers$]

this is FoxNews and MAGA broadcasting.

you have been fed lies and fake news.

Fact Check: Did 20 Million Illegal Immigrants Enter US Under Joe Biden?

The undocumented immigrant population in the United States reached 14 million in 2023, according to Pew Research Center.

www.newsweek.com

Fact Check: Did 20M undocumented immigrants enter US under Biden?

Donald Trump and his White House officials stated that the administration planned to review all migrant cases approved under Biden administration

news.meaww.com

Ten million migrants did not get 9 million jobs under Biden

The Biden-Harris administration “brought over” 10 million migrants who got 9 million jobs.

www.politifact.com

undocumented people in California are not allowed, have never been allowed to vote in state or federal elections.

there is no law change in the books and no proposed laws that i could find that requested undocumented people being allowed to vote.

Election and Voting for Undocumented Immigrants in California

Election and Voting for Undocumented Immigrants: dates, deadlines, ID and registration rules, and where to cast your ballot in California for 2026.

www.stateregstoday.com

please stop watching foxnews. please stop listening to maga. its poisoning your brain.

My brotha you think that’s real you believe only 14 million immigrants in America. There is many that don’t haven’t a recored the true numbers is over 50 million. In cali there is 14 million for a fact

 

[Lakers$]

Also million were not detected trust 20 million sound right even if it was 10 million that’s a **** ton we can’t have that in America. We neee a balance and now they need for us to go back to 2020 levels. Everything went down after 2020

 

[bubaghanush]

I’m only responding to your level of stupidity and the individual posts. You bend over backwards to change a illegal immigration to those who came here via different methods.

It is clear you don't know what you are talking about.

Your posts are some personal attack with copy and paste from Google or the ADL that fits your MAGA/AIPAC views. Try reading the posts closely and thinking for yourself before responding.

 

[lobelsteve]

It is clear you don't know what you are talking about.

Your posts are some personal attack with copy and paste from Google or the ADL that fits your MAGA/AIPAC views. Try reading the posts closely and thinking for yourself before responding.

It was the first thing google put up.
I don't need to think for myself when the facts demonstrate leftist nonsense.

 

[bubaghanush]

It was the first thing google put up.
I don't need to think for myself when the facts demonstrate leftist nonsense.

Lol couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[mille125]

Also million were not detected trust 20 million sound right even if it was 10 million that’s a **** ton we can’t have that in America. We neee a balance and now they need for us to go back to 2020 levels. Everything went down after 2020

I want to try to follow what you are saying but like all of your MAGA cohorts on here, we get 100 percent feelings and zero percent fact. Trump tapped into your feelings and now there are a large cohort of folks that spout out a bunch of stuff that is clearly not true.

Fight the urge man. Back up your posts or just be quiet. It is ok to be silent if you don't know.

 

[mille125]

It was the first thing google put up.
I don't need to think for myself when the facts demonstrate leftist nonsense.

And Mr Google...when you asked AI about how most undocumented persons arrived here, what did it say?


Again this is the best you can come up with?

Man just stop arguing and put down the mic please.

 

[Lakers$]

I want to try to follow what you are saying but like all of your MAGA cohorts on here, we get 100 percent feelings and zero percent fact. Trump tapped into your feelings and now there are a large cohort of folks that spout out a bunch of stuff that is clearly not true.

Fight the urge man. Back up your posts or just be quiet. It is ok to be silent if you don't know.

No I’m not Maga. I was raised a liberal but more center. I still believe in the core believe old democracy had which was safety, helping middle class and maintaining immigration limited. Now both sides are all over the place. But I still believe on those cores. I’m not Maga and don’t follow any of the democrats groups either.

I believe socialism doesn’t work either haha

 

[mille125]

No I’m not Maga. I was raised a liberal but more center. I still believe in the core believe old democracy had which was safety, helping middle class and maintaining immigration limited. Now both sides are all over the place. But I still believe on those cores. I’m not Maga and don’t follow any of the democrats groups either.

I believe socialism doesn’t work either haha

So the governing system of every country in the world does not work, right?

Which private company is going to run our national parks and do the unprofitable things?

Please tell.

 

[Lakers$]

So the governing system of every country in the world does not work, right?

Which private company is going to run our national parks and do the unprofitable things?

Please tell.

It doesn’t lol go to another country and you will see

 

[Ducttape]

My brotha you think that’s real you believe only 14 million immigrants in America. There is many that don’t haven’t a recored the true numbers is over 50 million. In cali there is 14 million for a fact

you stated that

In cali they allowed 10 million illegals in 4 years. It was the crossing and the rules they changed. They allowed them to go through the jail system then the people lied that they were going death treats and the Biden administration let them come in. To be honest here in cali the purpose was to vote. **** is crazy out here with voting. It all makes sense.

you yourself are stating that 10 million illegals came to cali in 4 years, right?
do you deny what you posted?

No I’m not Maga. I was raised a liberal but more center. I still believe in the core believe old democracy had which was safety, helping middle class and maintaining immigration limited. Now both sides are all over the place. But I still believe on those cores. I’m not Maga and don’t follow any of the democrats groups either.

I believe socialism doesn’t work either haha

and i was raised as a hard-core conservative who was told that Nixon was the greatest president of all time.

so?

your posts clearly show that you believe in MAGA. stating you arent MAGA does nothing to booster what you said and their basis on fake news posted on MAGA siding social media.



socialism wont work in the US. i dont think anyone here is advocating for pure socialism on this forum.

democratic socialist ideas, a democratically run and socially conscious economy, can work in a capitalist society.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

you stated that

you yourself are stating that 10 million illegals came to cali in 4 years, right?
do you deny what you posted?


and i was raised as a hard-core conservative who was told that Nixon was the greatest president of all time.

so?

your posts clearly show that you believe in MAGA. stating you arent MAGA does nothing to booster what you said and their basis on fake news posted on MAGA siding social media.



socialism wont work in the US. i dont think anyone here is advocating for pure socialism on this forum.

democratic socialist ideas, a democratically run and socially conscious economy, can work in a capitalist society.

Do we not have a socially conscious economy?

My section 8 tenants will disagree with you? Actually, they probably won't, as they feel that they deserve more

My employees, who have many benefits, will also disagree with you

So will the kids who go to the public schools that I have to pay for but don't use

So will my Medicaid patients who were just released from incarceration but never contributed to the system

So will the police that i have to pay for but rarely use....

 

[Pain Applicant1]

That is what I am trying to understand. You say deport all the illegals. Ok done. Now who does the work. If you deport all of the workers, what happens to the economy?

One of my patients explained this situation well. He said "doc, let me tell you the story of my company. I decided I am going to do the right thing and only hire Americans. I asked him what happnened. He said, "doc, I almost lost my business. People kept calling in with ailments. The ones who showed up cut corners and did shotty work. My customers started complaining. I fired them all and hired all "illegals". Haven't locked back since.

Sadly, this is the story. Native born Americans don't want to do this work. They just dont.

I'm trying to understand something also. I think you and I both agree that jobs are so plentiful in the US they we have the luxury of turning them away.

If this is the case, which it is, why are there certain groups in our country with such high unemployment rates year after year and who continue to live in poverty?

Person in poverty - meet unfilled job

Seems like a match made in heaven.

 

[SSdoc33]

I'll assume you mean by being here illegally, since for the most part, they're not committing other crimes.

What would you have them do? It isn't easy getting a work visa to come here and work because political reasons make being anti immigration popular. What would you do if you needed to support your family? Wouldn't you do the same thing?

What do you want business owners, who depend on this labor to provide the services that you and your family demand, to do? Where will the labor come from?

i really have no problem with the workers.....

but what about grandma who comes over? or the wife and kids? or the deadbeat brother/uncle? or the pregnant daughter?

you are lionizing the workers, which we definitely need, but there is a lot more attached to them. this is exactly why we need immigration reform to increase legal work visas and legal immigration.

also, no amnesty. that is a get out jail free card.

 

[SSdoc33]

Do we not have a socially conscious economy?

My section 8 tenants will disagree with you? Actually, they probably won't, as they feel that they deserve more

My employees, who have many benefits, will also disagree with you

So will the kids who go to the public schools that I have to pay for but don't use

So will my Medicaid patients who were just released from incarceration but never contributed to the system

So will the police that i have to pay for but rarely use....

your taxes pay to educate the community around you so that you have dentists, businessmen, and engineers rather than hobos in your neighborhood.

you dont need the police to stop a burglary in your house, but you need them to maintain order in general

"
You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police-forces and fire-forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory — and hire someone to protect against this — because of the work the rest of us did.

“Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."

-lizzie

 

[Pain Applicant1]

your taxes pay to educate the community around you so that you have dentists, businessmen, and engineers rather than hobos in your neighborhood.

you dont need the police to stop a burglary in your house, but you need them to maintain order in general

"
You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of police-forces and fire-forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory — and hire someone to protect against this — because of the work the rest of us did.

“Now look, you built a factory and it turned into something terrific, or a great idea. God bless — keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is, you take a hunk of that and pay forward for the next kid who comes along."

-lizzie

Umm, so you agree with me that we have a socialized economy.

If you don't allow to form my own police force you must provide it for me. If you don't allow me to dig my own well you must provide me with water.

The tax I pay on gas pays for the roads. The more gas I use the more I use the roads and the more tax I pay. Not really socialist.

Otoh, I pay property tax to support my neighbors kid in school. My kids go private so I don't see that money directly. A thank you would be nice to hear from my neighbor.

I pay for my section 8ers housing, food, school, healthcare, kids, and everything else. I have to support her and her family. Oh and I work my ****ing ass off to pay for this. In return I get an irresponsible person who destroys property with 8 kids who likes hanging on the couch smoking weed. Got to love socialism

 

[Pain Applicant1]

i really have no problem with the workers.....

but what about grandma who comes over? or the wife and kids? or the deadbeat brother/uncle? or the pregnant daughter?

you are lionizing the workers, which we definitely need, but there is a lot more attached to them. this is exactly why we need immigration reform to increase legal work visas and legal immigration.

also, no amnesty. that is a get out jail free card.

We're taking about groups overall, not individuals but go after Granny abuelita and those who commit crime and get rid of them. Leave the workers here.

We bring in foreign doctors to practice in underserved areas and these FMGs are awful, they're almost as bad as I am. Do the same with the trades since the whole country is underserved.

Cheap labor results in things. Erie canal, pyramids, Taj mahal.....

Expensive labor changes the economy. The black plague wiped out labor, and the Lords and knights were severely impacted and resulted in a change to the feudalistic system. Do you think it'll be a good idea to have such a severe impact on our economy like that.

A labor shortage is not benign.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

For the record, the wives here work too but it's not uncommon for the men to be here alone sending money back to their families

 

[Ducttape]

Do we not have a socially conscious economy?

My section 8 tenants will disagree with you? Actually, they probably won't, as they feel that they deserve more

My employees, who have many benefits, will also disagree with you

So will the kids who go to the public schools that I have to pay for but don't use

So will my Medicaid patients who were just released from incarceration but never contributed to the system

So will the police that i have to pay for but rarely use....

what we offer is so much lower than any other first world country.

compare us to France.

or Germany.

or New Zealand or Australia.

or Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium


and no, belarus, russia, venezuela, brazil are not in our league.


we have a political system where one side is routinely trying to eliminate programs to help the bottom 50%, that is trying to give tax benefits to the top 0.5%, is trying to provide multibillion dollar corporations with perks that have the ability to hurt every american, be it pollution, or resources or money and power,.

and we have people who are completely deceived in to believing these goals will make their lives better, and believing in idiotic things such as trickle-down economics or eliminating corporate taxes helps them...

 

[Pain Applicant1]

what we offer is so much lower than any other first world country.

compare us to France.

or Germany.

or New Zealand or Australia.

or Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium


and no, belarus, russia, venezuela, brazil are not in our league.


we have a political system where one side is routinely trying to eliminate programs to help the bottom 50%, that is trying to give tax benefits to the top 0.5%, is trying to provide multibillion dollar corporations with perks that have the ability to hurt every american, be it pollution, or resources or money and power,.

and we have people who are completely deceived in to believing these goals will make their lives better, and believing in idiotic things such as trickle-down economics or eliminating corporate taxes helps them...

I can't really say I disagree with you..I don't like the wealth discrepancy. Otoh, I see what these social programs do to people.

Don't give things for free. Create programs that give opportunity for people without making them dependent. Have safety nets for people who got screwed for something other than their own choice and volition.

I think this is the easiest time in the history of the world in the easiest location in the world to create wealth. Here's a simple formula:

No drugs
No tob
No etoh
No kids until established
Work, learn a trade, dedicate yourself, sacrifice
Be kind to people, do a good job, don't rip them off

That's it. What am I missing?

 

[hyperalgesia]

democratic socialist ideas, a democratically run and socially conscious economy, can work in a capitalist society.

I think you've had enough wine tonight Kamala

I can't really say I disagree with you..I don't like the wealth discrepancy. Otoh, I see what these social programs do to people.

Don't give things for free. Create programs that give opportunity for people without making them dependent. Have safety nets for people who got screwed for something other than their own choice and volition.

I think this is the easiest time in the history of the world in the easiest location in the world to create wealth. Here's a simple formula:

No drugs
No tob
No etoh
No kids until established
Work, learn a trade, dedicate yourself, sacrifice
Be kind to people, do a good job, don't rip them off

That's it. What am I missing?

Your plan helps the unfortunate.

They want to hurt the fortunate.

Both methods address inequality but totally different objectives.

 

[mille125]

We're taking about groups overall, not individuals but go after Granny abuelita and those who commit crime and get rid of them. Leave the workers here.

We bring in foreign doctors to practice in underserved areas and these FMGs are awful, they're almost as bad as I am. Do the same with the trades since the whole country is underserved.

Cheap labor results in things. Erie canal, pyramids, Taj mahal.....

Expensive labor changes the economy. The black plague wiped out labor, and the Lords and knights were severely impacted and resulted in a change to the feudalistic system. Do you think it'll be a good idea to have such a severe impact on our economy like that.

A labor shortage is not benign.

Your point is very valid but your view of lack of barriers to reaching it is naive.

There are many barriers between the unemployed and a trade. Many high school students do express interest in the trades, yet they encounter roadblocks in accessing critical training where nearly half say that they cant get spots in training programs (ie there is a lack of vocational training programs and it is expensive with less aid available compared to traditional colleges).

Additionally there are initial costs for purchasing equipment and difficulty in finding an apprentice sponsor (which requires networking). Also even though journeyman earn decent wages, apprentice wages are at minimum wage which is extremely difficult for someone already supporting a family in poverty.

Lastly employers sometimes have a bias for younger workers given the physical demands involved in many of these jobs making it even more difficult for older unemployed workers.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Your point is very valid but your view of lack of barriers to reaching it is naive.

There are many barriers between the unemployed and a trade. Many high school students do express interest in the trades, yet they encounter roadblocks in accessing critical training where nearly half say that they cant get spots in training programs (ie there is a lack of vocational training programs and it is expensive with less aid available compared to traditional colleges).

Additionally there are initial costs for purchasing equipment and difficulty in finding an apprentice sponsor (which requires networking). Also even though journeyman earn decent wages, apprentice wages are at minimum wage which is extremely difficult for someone already supporting a family in poverty.

Lastly employers sometimes have a bias for younger workers given the physical demands involved in many of these jobs making it even more difficult for older unemployed workers.

Nah, it's not naive and your post is about on par with pig slop. You'll just keep making excuses no matter what because you don't want to admit the truth, even though deep inside you know what the truth is.

I'm talking about generational poverty so it refers to older folks as well as the younger folks. The older folks already made their poor decisions and likely didn't follow the formula that I mentioned above. They've already made their bed, so now they have to sleep in it. For starters, stay away from drugs, etoh, tob and don't have kids until you can afford them.

But if they're younger, do exactly what I said, and you'll make it. It's never been easier. Now's the time to do it because it won't always be this way.

I've already listed several trucking companies that are willing to pay room, board, training, etc to get you started. All you have to do is show up. It's not that hard. I guess I'm old because it's much easier than my generation ever had it.

Don't like trucking. Go HVAC. Johnsons Controls offers paid apprenticeships at $50k per year. Hardly min wage. They're an expensive company so I didn't use them but they offer good opportunities. That opportunity is better than college, where you have to pay for it and go into debt.

FAFSA is also available for trade schools, including Pell Grants.

Check out the sweetheart of a deal below from Total Comfort. Really, it can't be any easier. They're rolling out a red carpet for you.

I asked you this before and you refused to answer so I'll assume you'll do the same again. Are you saying that in these generationally impoverished areas, the young people are dedicated and hard-working and are lining up to learn new skills and the issues preventing them from getting out of poverty have nothing to do with their ability and behavior?

 

[clubdeac]

what we offer is so much lower than any other first world country.

compare us to France.

or Germany.

or New Zealand or Australia.

or Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium


and no, belarus, russia, venezuela, brazil are not in our league.


we have a political system where one side is routinely trying to eliminate programs to help the bottom 50%, that is trying to give tax benefits to the top 0.5%, is trying to provide multibillion dollar corporations with perks that have the ability to hurt every american, be it pollution, or resources or money and power,.

and we have people who are completely deceived in to believing these goals will make their lives better, and believing in idiotic things such as trickle-down economics or eliminating corporate taxes helps them...

Of all those countries you mentioned, we have the most progressive tax system ever we essentially don’t tax the bottom 50%. In most of those other countries you admire, the bottom 50% pays a as much larger proportion of total taxes than the bottom 50% of the US which connect contributes about 4% of total tax revenue. If you want larger entitlement programs similar to these countries, you’ll need to add a VAT tax and make the bottom 50% contribute a higher percentage to the federal tax revenue. I know neither of these are tenable for your world view. You seem to want the best of both worlds which isn’t logical or achievable without significant changes

 

[callmeanesthesia]

Of all those countries you mentioned, we have the most progressive tax system ever we essentially don’t tax the bottom 50%. In most of those other countries you admire, the bottom 50% pays a as much larger proportion of total taxes than the bottom 50% of the US which connect contributes about 4% of total tax revenue. If you want larger entitlement programs similar to these countries, you’ll need to add a VAT tax and make the bottom 50% contribute a higher percentage to the federal tax revenue. I know neither of these are tenable for your world view. You seem to want the best of both worlds which isn’t logical or achievable without significant changes

That view is overly simplified though since you have to look at the total cost and benefit. Healthcare is a huge part of that. You have the extremely poor and disabled on the government dime in both systems, but in most of those other countries you have almost everyone on government health insurance. So maybe they’re paying more in taxes but that’s covering their healthcare. Instead in the US we offload that onto private businesses, we in my group are paying probably $15k per year per employee to Blue Cross for what amounts to catastrophic coverage. If they need meds, surgery, whatever, they’re paying at least another $5k oop before insurance pays a dime, and then 20% co-insurance after that. So $20,000 from the salary of someone making $45k a year is already around a 33% effective “tax” rate.

 

[clubdeac]

That view is overly simplified though since you have to look at the total cost and benefit. Healthcare is a huge part of that. You have the extremely poor and disabled on the government dime in both systems, but in most of those other countries you have almost everyone on government health insurance. So maybe they’re paying more in taxes but that’s covering their healthcare. Instead in the US we offload that onto private businesses, we in my group are paying probably $15k per year per employee to Blue Cross for what amounts to catastrophic coverage. If they need meds, surgery, whatever, they’re paying at least another $5k oop before insurance pays a dime, and then 20% co-insurance after that. So $20,000 from the salary of someone making $45k a year is already around a 33% effective “tax” rate.

True our health system is broken however I have not spoken to one person who has dual citizenship in the US and France, Italy, England or Spain that would prefer to get their healthcare in Europe. Every one without reservation says healthcare there pales in comparison

 

[callmeanesthesia]

True our health system is broken however I have not spoken to one person who has dual citizenship in the US and France, Italy, England or Spain that would prefer to get their healthcare in Europe. Every one without reservation says healthcare there pales in comparison

The healthcare people want and the healthcare they need often doesn’t overlap much. Just look at the population level cost and outcomes between the US and other countries.

 

[clubdeac]

The healthcare people want and the healthcare they need often doesn’t overlap much. Just look at the population level cost and outcomes between the US and other countries.

I’ve seen some of the outcome studies and I’m not sure they account for population differences nor do they consistently show similar or worse outcomes for America

We by far have the fattest, least active and likely most stressed population of any country on the planet. Are any of these population differences taken into account?

 

[emergentmd]

It is 90-100 degrees in Europe. Most want but not allowed a simple split HVAC costing a few thousands. They suffer in the heat.

In 2022, 62k heat related deaths. 2023 48K, 2024 63K. These are deaths just in Germany, UK, France, Italy, Spain, Greece for a total of 350M people similar to the US.
In the US, 2024 had 44K fire arm related deaths. 28K from suicide and 15K from homicide. So "only" about 15K from "preventable" deaths.

We throw a fit over how dangerous the US is but your chance of dying from "preventable" deaths is 4x higher in Europe.

In context, the US avg about 1k heat deaths a year.

This alone tells me I don't want whatever they are selling in Europe.

 

[mille125]

Of all those countries you mentioned, we have the most progressive tax system ever we essentially don’t tax the bottom 50%. In most of those other countries you admire, the bottom 50% pays a as much larger proportion of total taxes than the bottom 50% of the US which connect contributes about 4% of total tax revenue. If you want larger entitlement programs similar to these countries, you’ll need to add a VAT tax and make the bottom 50% contribute a higher percentage to the federal tax revenue. I know neither of these are tenable for your world view. You seem to want the best of both worlds which isn’t logical or achievable without significant changes

You have an interesting perspective. My question for you: if you take the amount of payroll taxes that one of your employees pay as a portion of their salary and compare it to the amount of total tax that let's say Donald Trump pays vs his income...who pays a higher percentage?

Or maybe you don't think that payroll tax is tax..

 

[mille125]

It is 90-100 degrees in Europe. Most want but not allowed a simple split HVAC costing a few thousands. They suffer in the heat.

In 2022, 62k heat related deaths. 2023 48K, 2024 63K. These are deaths just in Germany, UK, France, Italy, Spain, Greece for a total of 350M people similar to the US.
In the US, 2024 had 44K fire arm related deaths. 28K from suicide and 15K from homicide. So "only" about 15K from "preventable" deaths.

We throw a fit over how dangerous the US is but your chance of dying from "preventable" deaths is 4x higher in Europe.

In context, the US avg about 1k heat deaths a year.

This alone tells me I don't want whatever they are selling in Europe.

Yeah but we have the most preventable deaths in heathcare along with those firearm deaths.

We also score poorly in maternal death, life expectancy, and obesity. We also have a very high number of bankruptcies for medical debt.

Clubdeac mentioned people travelling here for care. That is true. We have some of the best healthcare for those that can afford it. For the masses though.....its blah.

 

[mille125]

That view is overly simplified though since you have to look at the total cost and benefit. Healthcare is a huge part of that. You have the extremely poor and disabled on the government dime in both systems, but in most of those other countries you have almost everyone on government health insurance. So maybe they’re paying more in taxes but that’s covering their healthcare. Instead in the US we offload that onto private businesses, we in my group are paying probably $15k per year per employee to Blue Cross for what amounts to catastrophic coverage. If they need meds, surgery, whatever, they’re paying at least another $5k oop before insurance pays a dime, and then 20% co-insurance after that. So $20,000 from the salary of someone making $45k a year is already around a 33% effective “tax” rate.

I provide really good insurance. My office manager paid $250 for a surgery. Cost me about 36K for my family. Paying 20K for a 40-45 yr old. Much more for older ones.

It's a lot

 

[emergentmd]

The lower 50% pays essentially nothing towards taxes. They receive more than they put in. They have no skins in the game. The top 10% pay 70% of taxes. I guess we should tax the rich more so the bottom 50% can have more and still have no skin in the game.

This just sounds like a great plan. Lets take more incentive out of the bottom 50% to pull themselves up.

Walk the streets of America and Switzerland...... No amount of money will change the health metrics. If you forced all Americans to walk as much and eat less McDonalds, then you will fix the gap. Keep pouring $$$ does no good.

 

[mille125]

Nah, it's not naive and your post is about on par with pig slop. You'll just keep making excuses no matter what because you don't want to admit the truth, even though deep inside you know what the truth is.

I'm talking about generational poverty so it refers to older folks as well as the younger folks. The older folks already made their poor decisions and likely didn't follow the formula that I mentioned above. They've already made their bed, so now they have to sleep in it. For starters, stay away from drugs, etoh, tob and don't have kids until you can afford them.

But if they're younger, do exactly what I said, and you'll make it. It's never been easier. Now's the time to do it because it won't always be this way.

I've already listed several trucking companies that are willing to pay room, board, training, etc to get you started. All you have to do is show up. It's not that hard. I guess I'm old because it's much easier than my generation ever had it.

Don't like trucking. Go HVAC. Johnsons Controls offers paid apprenticeships at $50k per year. Hardly min wage. They're an expensive company so I didn't use them but they offer good opportunities. That opportunity is better than college, where you have to pay for it and go into debt.

FAFSA is also available for trade schools, including Pell Grants.

Check out the sweetheart of a deal below from Total Comfort. Really, it can't be any easier. They're rolling out a red carpet for you.

I asked you this before and you refused to answer so I'll assume you'll do the same again. Are you saying that in these generationally impoverished areas, the young people are dedicated and hard-working and are lining up to learn new skills and the issues preventing them from getting out of poverty have nothing to do with their ability and behavior?


View attachment 422318View attachment 422317

Outside of my realm so I did a little background.

Sounds great but based in Tennessee which is fine. Many former students in forums say that journeyman are not interested in teaching. They also say the their is surprising instability in jobs delayed payrolls and mass layoffs during slow seasons. For such a "good deal" it gets surprisingly low reviews. Just reading to you what workers have said. Not sure if I would pack up and move temporarily for this. It sounds risky.

So is it an opportunity yes..

Is it as you describe...no

Not surprising...I don't think you mean it but nearly all of your posts are misleading.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

Outside of my realm so I did a little background.

Sounds great but based in Tennessee which is fine. Many former students in forums say that journeyman are not interested in teaching. They also say the their is surprising instability in jobs delayed payrolls and mass layoffs during slow seasons. For such a "good deal" it gets surprisingly low reviews. Just reading to you what workers have said. Not sure if I would pack up and move temporarily for this. It sounds risky.

So is it an opportunity yes..

Is it as you describe...no

Not surprising...I don't think you mean it but nearly all of your posts are misleading.

Yes, why were all those workers in slacking off in the 1930s when they could have moved to California to pick oranges?