socializing w/ residents outside the hospital

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Colba55o

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What are people's thoughts about socializing with residents outside of the hospital? Twice this year I have been approached by residents who want to "hang out" on the weekend; the first was an intern who asked if I wanted to go to the movies with her, and more recently a 3rd yr resident asked myself and the 2 other students on our team if we'd like to hang out at his house this sunday for dinner (this invitation was just to the 3 of us)

Don't get me wrong, I know as residents that our work colleagues will wind up being our friends, and to get ahead in the professional world you have to be willing to do social stuff with the people you spend your whole day with. But I'm not particularly interested in hanging out with either of these residents, not to mention these are rotations that last for just 6-8 weeks. I think if a resident wants to spend time socializing with students after hours, it should wait until after the rotation is over and grades are submitted.

When the intern invited me to the movie, the other student on the service felt jilted (the intern was female, as was the other student, I'm a guy). I REALLY don't want to go to this other residents dinner gathering, but the other 2 students said they would go, and I'm not sure my evaluation wont be subconsciously negatively affected if I bail out.

Thoughts? Am I over reacting??
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Colba55o said:
What are people's thoughts about socializing with residents outside of the hospital? Twice this year I have been approached by residents who want to "hang out" on the weekend; the first was an intern who asked if I wanted to go to the movies with her, and more recently a 3rd yr resident asked myself and the 2 other students on our team if we'd like to hang out at his house this sunday for dinner (this invitation was just to the 3 of us)

Don't get me wrong, I know as residents that our work colleagues will wind up being our friends, and to get ahead in the professional world you have to be willing to do social stuff with the people you spend your whole day with. But I'm not particularly interested in hanging out with either of these residents, not to mention these are rotations that last for just 6-8 weeks. I think if a resident wants to spend time socializing with students after hours, it should wait until after the rotation is over and grades are submitted.

When the intern invited me to the movie, the other student on the service felt jilted (the intern was female, as was the other student, I'm a guy). I REALLY don't want to go to this other residents dinner gathering, but the other 2 students said they would go, and I'm not sure my evaluation wont be subconsciously negatively affected if I bail out.

Thoughts? Am I over reacting??
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Going out one on one to dinner/movies with a resident/intern/attending of the opposite sex is always inappropriate, because it's a set up for legal issues. If a resident or group of residents invite all of the med students on the team over for dinner, that's fine. I would caution that you not have much to drink though because saying or doing something stupid could find its way into an eval even if you think you are off the clock.

And yes, you will sometimes have obligations you feel you ought to attend even though you are supposedly off the clock. This will likely be true throughout your career when you find you have to go to the company picnic or practice's retreat or holiday party. A resident's dinner party is the same ilk -- you aren't obligated to go, but this is someone who has input in your grade so the smart person will attend.
 
I've hung out with med students (always in a group) on several occasions - but ALWAYS after the rotation was over, and grades were already turned in. You just don't want to risk anything.

I've also been invited to a few Match/graduation parties, and have attended. No problems there.
 
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Colba55o said:
What are people's thoughts about socializing with residents outside of the hospital? Twice this year I have been approached by residents who want to "hang out" on the weekend; the first was an intern who asked if I wanted to go to the movies with her, and more recently a 3rd yr resident asked myself and the 2 other students on our team if we'd like to hang out at his house this sunday for dinner (this invitation was just to the 3 of us)

Don't get me wrong, I know as residents that our work colleagues will wind up being our friends, and to get ahead in the professional world you have to be willing to do social stuff with the people you spend your whole day with. But I'm not particularly interested in hanging out with either of these residents, not to mention these are rotations that last for just 6-8 weeks. I think if a resident wants to spend time socializing with students after hours, it should wait until after the rotation is over and grades are submitted.

When the intern invited me to the movie, the other student on the service felt jilted (the intern was female, as was the other student, I'm a guy). I REALLY don't want to go to this other residents dinner gathering, but the other 2 students said they would go, and I'm not sure my evaluation wont be subconsciously negatively affected if I bail out.

Thoughts? Am I over reacting??
Click to expand...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with med students hanging out with residents. This is not the military. There are no respectable rules against fraternization. I've hung out plenty with med students, during and after their rotations. Work is usually the last thing on our minds. We're mostly there to just shoot the breeze, drink up, and have a good time. Grades are something that shouldn't even be considered. If you want to go to a party, then go. If not, then don't, no obligation. Your choice, and yours only. You really think a rotation is going to depend on whether or not you attend a party? Not only is that shallow, it's a bunch of BS. Besides, how else can us residents impart our common knowledge to our underclassmen?
 
I've hung out with med students outside of the hospital, but the students are usually sub-interns rotating with us again, so they are students I already know and are interested in my field. It's encompassed both work-related and personal conversations. Plus, one of these students is now going to be an intern in my program next year...how else do you get to know your future colleagues?

I've also had MSIIIs come out to breakfast with the team after a week of nights (we traditionally get breakfast Friday morning). I would have never held it against these students if they decided not to come, for whatever reason.
 
fuzzyerin said:
I would have never held it against these students if they decided not to come, for whatever reason.
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Not consciously. But you will reflect positively or negatively based on the impressions students have made, both at the hospital and out. So someone not attending is missing an opportunity to make an impression. And someone who always shows up to team social events will generally be perceived as fitting in better. It is impossible to separate out what impression got made where.
 
Law2Doc said:
harrassment. In any professional/academic setting when a superior is alleged to take advantage of their position with a charge, it can open them and the hospital up to litigation.
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This applies even though the student is affiliated with the school, while the residents are employees of the hospital? It would seem to me like there's no actual professional relationship in which one person is superior to the other.
 
fakin' the funk said:
This applies even though the student is affiliated with the school, while the residents are employees of the hospital? It would seem to me like there's no actual professional relationship in which one person is superior to the other.
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This isn't necessarily true. At my institution, residents are employees of the school, not hospital. Anyhow, i would say there is a hierarchy here, particularly since residents can affect a student's grade (at least a my institution).
 
Colba55o said:
What are people's thoughts about socializing with residents outside of the hospital? Twice this year I have been approached by residents who want to "hang out" on the weekend; the first was an intern who asked if I wanted to go to the movies with her, and more recently a 3rd yr resident asked myself and the 2 other students on our team if we'd like to hang out at his house this sunday for dinner (this invitation was just to the 3 of us)

Don't get me wrong, I know as residents that our work colleagues will wind up being our friends, and to get ahead in the professional world you have to be willing to do social stuff with the people you spend your whole day with. But I'm not particularly interested in hanging out with either of these residents, not to mention these are rotations that last for just 6-8 weeks. I think if a resident wants to spend time socializing with students after hours, it should wait until after the rotation is over and grades are submitted.

When the intern invited me to the movie, the other student on the service felt jilted (the intern was female, as was the other student, I'm a guy). I REALLY don't want to go to this other residents dinner gathering, but the other 2 students said they would go, and I'm not sure my evaluation wont be subconsciously negatively affected if I bail out.

Thoughts? Am I over reacting??
Click to expand...

If you want to see these folks socially and think that you will have a good time, then do so. It's nice to have a cordial working group of people who enjoy being with each other both at work and socially.

On the other hand, if you really are not "feeling the vibe" then you have the best excuse for not doing the social thing by just saying, "I really am behind in my reading and have to get caught up". Just be kind and be sure to tell them to have a great time and that you will try to hang with them next time when you are caught up.

You should not feel pressured to socialize with residents (or attendings) in order for you to get a good evaluation if the quality of your work is good. If you have feelings that you must attend social events in order to be fairly evaluated, you may be in a very bad situation if you don't at least do one small thing socially. If this turns out to be the case, then go to a dinner/lunch/movie with the team (make the I have to study excuse and leave early) and after you get your grade, speak to the clerkship coordinator.
 
Colba55o said:
When the intern invited me to the movie, the other student on the service felt jilted (the intern was female, as was the other student, I'm a guy).

Thoughts? Am I over reacting??
Click to expand...

Honestly, would we be having this online conversation if that intern was hot, or would you be out with her right now?
 
I think it is different for M3s and M4s.

As an M3 I was definitely friendly with almost all of my residents but never really considered hanging out with them as I felt it was more of a teacher-learner role.

During M4 you (or at least I) really feel like you're more a part of the team. Starting in August of my 4th year I started partying with my residents. It actually kicks a** b/c work starts to involve more hanging out with people who are now your friends, giving each other grief etc etc.

One thing that is definitely true for you rising M4s: if you are on an "away" rotation and are invited out -- go. Just make sure you only have about 2/3 of the EtOH that your residents have.
 
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We had several team dinners at the end of rotations with students and residents (we invited out teaching attendings but they didn't come). No problems at all.

I think I would feel differently if it were one-on-one for the reasons Law2Doc stated as well as just thinking it would be more awkward.
 
I've been invited as well. There are a quite few residents I would have felt comfortable hanging out with, but the truth is the fact they are evaluating me and vice versa makes it weird. So, I don't do it and wouldn't recommend it.

This year is weird because my class split in 6 different directions, so now I only see a few of my classmates which has really cut down on the fun things we used to do together. I guess it's part of the whole "divide and conquer" aspect of third year.
 
njbmd said:
You should not feel pressured to socialize with residents (or attendings) in order for you to get a good evaluation if the quality of your work is good. If you have feelings that you must attend social events in order to be fairly evaluated, you may be in a very bad situation if you don't at least do one small thing socially. If this turns out to be the case, then go to a dinner/lunch/movie with the team (make the I have to study excuse and leave early) and after you get your grade, speak to the clerkship coordinator.
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What "should be" and "what is" the case are two different things. Folks will always feel pressure to attend social events thrown by their superiors. Again this isn't just in med school but also extends to every boss'es dinner party, company retreat, company picnic, etc you will be invited to throughout your career. It's a part of professional life. You aren't obligated to be there, but know you probably should be there.

I think it would be really odd and a bad idea to go complain to the clerkship coordinator that the residents invited you to stuff. The residents didn't say it would affect your grade and probably just thought they were being nice -- it would be a nasty slap to get them in trouble for it. And you probably will come across them or their friends/classmates in subsequent rotations or things. Why be known as "that guy/gal" who whined to the coordinator about being invited to stuff. A hospital is too small a community. Your reputation is far more important than a couple of hours at a dinner.
 
LeemerDO said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with med students hanging out with residents. This is not the military. There are no respectable rules against fraternization. I've hung out plenty with med students, during and after their rotations. Work is usually the last thing on our minds. We're mostly there to just shoot the breeze, drink up, and have a good time. Grades are something that shouldn't even be considered. If you want to go to a party, then go. If not, then don't, no obligation. Your choice, and yours only. You really think a rotation is going to depend on whether or not you attend a party? Not only is that shallow, it's a bunch of BS. Besides, how else can us residents impart our common knowledge to our underclassmen?
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I didn't say there was anything wrong with med students hanging out with residents; and I would have no problem hanging out with the team for a social purpose. But this is the specific resident that will be determining in large part what my grade for the course will be, and he personally asked us if we would like to have dinner at his house.
I think its naiive to think that the 1 med student of the 3 that chose not to go would absolutely face no consequence. You residents are not robots, subconsciously if you are evaluating 3 students simultaneously you will compare them to some extent.

To add another twist to this story, I'm a straight acting gay guy, and the first resident that asked me to hang out was female. The second resident is a married guy who invited me to bring my "wife or girlfriend". He also strikes me as the type that may not be too tolerant of gays based on his machismo (which is total speculation). So ultimately I don't feel comfortable taking my partner along to this dinner, but I feel guilty telling him he has to stay home because my grade my be adversely affected.
Once again, these rotations are relatively short, and I don't think it would be too unreasonable to expect that if a resident wants to invite students out, he/she could easily wait until the grades are submitted; that way they will know that the student is there because they genuinely enjoy his/her company instead of just doing it to gain brown-nosing time
 
Colba55o said:
and more recently a 3rd yr resident asked myself and the 2 other students on our team if we'd like to hang out at his house this sunday for dinner (this invitation was just to the 3 of us)
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This Sunday. As in Easter Sunday? As in Easter Sunday dinner?

I don't think that there's anything sinister behind that - a lot of the faculty here invite students over to their homes for Thanksgiving dinner or for some Jewish holidays. They know that students from far away can't necessarily make it home, but don't want to celebrate alone.

In any case, if it's just a team dinner, there's no reason why you need to feel obligated to go. It's not like it's a school-related obligation like grand rounds or something.

Colba55o said:
I think its naiive to think that the 1 med student of the 3 that chose not to go would absolutely face no consequence. You residents are not robots, subconsciously if you are evaluating 3 students simultaneously you will compare them to some extent.
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I think you're feeling a little paranoid. As much as we hate feeling like we're being spied on by our residents, I think that most residents hate feeling like they need to spy on their students!

I mean, they're residents - not monsters, not ogres, and not communist/KGB agents. I'm sure that they like to kick back and have a good time once in a while, without feeling like they're supervising you. And I know that some residents really want to just talk to med students freely - person to person - which is hard to do in the hospital. Hence, the dinner party invite.

Whether or not you bring your partner is up to you. This is something that you're going to have to face even as a resident by the way - the surgery interns at my school were invited over for New Year's Dinner to the chairman's house. Some people brought their spouses, but other people didn't feel comfortable doing so (even those who were straight). Even in internal med, there are plenty of holiday parties and summer picnics where families are invited.

(As a side note - is your partner in medicine? Because he may not even WANT to go...the evening will inevitably devolve into medicine talk, and if he doesn't understand what you're talking about, he'll be bored out of his mind.)

P.S. What rotation is this that your resident can invite you guys over for dinner in the middle of it? 😕 On my other rotations, we were all too busy or tired to do anything major in the middle of it. We waited for an end-of-rotation dinner, partly out of the whole "grading" situation, but also for sheer convenience.

On OB/gyn, we did have a big dinner party in the call room on the last week of night float, but that was an exception.
 
I think it matters a lot which rotation it is.

If I'm working 35 hours a week at a family practice doctor's office, and he invites me out to dinner with a drug company on a Wednesday, that's fine.

If I'm working 80 hours a week on some busy inpatient service with a bunch of stressed out, angry duschbags, and I get "invited" out on my first genuinely free Saturday evening at the end of the clerkship, I'm usually pretty annoyed.
 
Colba55o said:
What are people's thoughts about socializing with residents outside of the hospital? Twice this year I have been approached by residents who want to "hang out" on the weekend; the first was an intern who asked if I wanted to go to the movies with her, and more recently a 3rd yr resident asked myself and the 2 other students on our team if we'd like to hang out at his house this sunday for dinner (this invitation was just to the 3 of us)

But I'm not particularly interested in hanging out with either of these residents, not to mention these are rotations that last for just 6-8 weeks. I think if a resident wants to spend time socializing with students after hours, it should wait until after the rotation is over and grades are submitted.

When the intern invited me to the movie, the other student on the service felt jilted (the intern was female, as was the other student, I'm a guy). I REALLY don't want to go to this other residents dinner gathering, but the other 2 students said they would go, and I'm not sure my evaluation wont be subconsciously negatively affected if I bail out.

Thoughts? Am I over reacting??
Click to expand...
I've hung out with my residents on almost all of my rotations thus far. Some extracurriculars during the end of the rotation, and some during. Usually, they aren't going to care whether you want to hang out with them or not, and it won't affect your eval. If you're interested in the program your rotating at, it would be beneficial to you in more ways than one to attend anything your residents/attendings invite you to (which will be group related 99% of the time). If you don't feel like hanging out... no biggie, don't feel bad about it.

As for one-on-one stuff, I can see how that would make you uncomfortable because it seems almost date-like. That would be the only one to make a point to avoid, and could come back to bite you in the bum.
 
...nurses, med aids, others who work there?
 
Old_Mil said:
...nurses, med aids, others who work there?
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If it's one on one with a member of the opposite sex (or same sex depending on folks orientation), it is likely still frowned upon by administration if you have a work relationship with such person. Hospital lawyers want to avoid any potential friction in the workplace and if eg a nurse/tech complains that a med student is harrassing him/her, it's just as bad for the hospital as any "employee" issue.
If folks are hanging out as a group, knock yourself out.
 
Just to add to the prevailing opinion, this is something you will have do "deal" with for the rest of your career and it's not unique to medicine. I choose to enjoy my teams and find the best in all of them. I have to say that I've yet to have a team with which I wouldn't enjoy having dinner. Sure, there were some people I enjoyed more than others - but I generally find that I get along with everyone pretty well.

Socializing outside of work is something you will have to do your entire career. You will pretty much *have* to show up to the chairman's "summer picnic" at his/her estate in the suburbs (haha...) unless, of course, you are working. Grabbing a drink after work with your co-residents will help forge the relationships that get you through residency. I'd encourage you to become comfortable with socializing, even with those who will evaluate you. That being said, if things are presented in a romantic manner, I think it's perfectly appropriate to decline citing the fact that you work together or that you are seeing someone.
 
Colba55o said:
What are people's thoughts about socializing with residents outside of the hospital? Twice this year I have been approached by residents who want to "hang out" on the weekend; the first was an intern who asked if I wanted to go to the movies with her, and more recently a 3rd yr resident asked myself and the 2 other students on our team if we'd like to hang out at his house this sunday for dinner (this invitation was just to the 3 of us)

Don't get me wrong, I know as residents that our work colleagues will wind up being our friends, and to get ahead in the professional world you have to be willing to do social stuff with the people you spend your whole day with. But I'm not particularly interested in hanging out with either of these residents, not to mention these are rotations that last for just 6-8 weeks. I think if a resident wants to spend time socializing with students after hours, it should wait until after the rotation is over and grades are submitted.

When the intern invited me to the movie, the other student on the service felt jilted (the intern was female, as was the other student, I'm a guy). I REALLY don't want to go to this other residents dinner gathering, but the other 2 students said they would go, and I'm not sure my evaluation wont be subconsciously negatively affected if I bail out.

Thoughts? Am I over reacting??
Click to expand...

If you don't want to go, make up a good excuse. If it affects your evaluation, this is illegal and you can take appropriate action.

Shouldn't attendings be doing your evaluations anyway?

P.S. If you want to go to this program for residency, you had better go to the dinner...
 
The girl resident asking the gay guy out to a movie sounds like a disaster waiting to happen...

Other stuff doesn't seem so bad to me? Residents aren't really that much older than you, so if you're friends, why not? I "hang out" with a number of people near my school who were seniors when I was a freshman/sophomore that are now in residencies in the surrounding area. It's awesome since it gets you out of your class bubble. They can also introduce you to attendings, etc., which can't hurt (unless you're a ******) on the interview trail.
 
CorpusERdoc said:
If you don't want to go, make up a good excuse. If it affects your evaluation, this is illegal and you can take appropriate action.

Shouldn't attendings be doing your evaluations anyway?
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At some schools/rotations residents do evaluations, at others they provide input to the attendings. At any rate it's not likely they are going to blatently mention your inattendance in your evaluation and since they are largely subjective then you will never have ability to bring legal action. If they say they don't find you particularly good, how does that give you a cause of action. Folks like the idea of suing but honestly, the ability to have a sustainable claim in this kind of scenario is next to nil.
 
Law2Doc said:
Folks like the idea of suing but honestly, the ability to have a sustainable claim in this kind of scenario is next to nil.
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I've always wondered: why the hell isn't there some sort of penalty for people (and their lawyers) who file frivolous lawsuits? Seems like there should be some sort of deterent against people in this country filing lawsuits willy-nilly.
 
Blade28 said:
I've always wondered: why the hell isn't there some sort of penalty for people (and their lawyers) who file frivolous lawsuits? Seems like there should be some sort of deterent against people in this country filing lawsuits willy-nilly.
Click to expand...

There is. There are fairly significant sanctions, court costs, potential bar actions. Which is why truly frivolous suits are rare. However what folks on SDN want to call frivolous doesn't always jibe with the way the rest of the world (or the law) uses the term. Frivolous doesn't mean you didn't win. It means you didn't present a legally sufficient cause of action. In the current example, you can't make out a cause of action because you lack proof of wrongdoing. A bad eval doesn't mean it wasn't a fair eval. So this kind of case probably might be frivolous (unless you found a way to add a lot of meat to it) and you would be unlikely to find a lawyer willing to bring it.
 
Law2Doc said:
At some schools/rotations residents do evaluations, at others they provide input to the attendings. At any rate it's not likely they are going to blatently mention your inattendance in your evaluation and since they are largely subjective then you will never have ability to bring legal action. If they say they don't find you particularly good, how does that give you a cause of action. Folks like the idea of suing but honestly, the ability to have a sustainable claim in this kind of scenario is next to nil.
Click to expand...

With that being said, it is not likely to affect the evaluation of all the residents --> just the one who made the invitation. If this outlier affects the overall evaluation it can be addressed with higher-ups. It may not be legal action, but the attention may be effective.
 
Law2Doc said:
There is. There are fairly significant sanctions, court costs, potential bar actions. Which is why truly frivolous suits are rare. However what folks on SDN want to call frivolous doesn't always jibe with the way the rest of the world (or the law) uses the term. Frivolous doesn't mean you didn't win. It means you didn't present a legally sufficient cause of action.
Click to expand...

Oh, I was thinking outside of this thread - I was more referring to the ridiculously litiginous patient who will sue their physician for anything. Even if the case gets tossed out a day or two later, the physician loses time, earned income, etc.

Just wondering.
 
I think a good rule of thumb is that if it wastes the court's time, it's frivolous.

If it wastes your time, well... life sucks, doesn't it?

-X

Blade28 said:
Oh, I was thinking outside of this thread - I was more referring to the ridiculously litiginous patient who will sue their physician for anything. Even if the case gets tossed out a day or two later, the physician loses time, earned income, etc.

Just wondering.
Click to expand...
 
xanthines said:
I think a good rule of thumb is that if it wastes the court's time, it's frivolous.

If it wastes your time, well... life sucks, doesn't it?

-X
Click to expand...

In such case if the court considers their time wasted, there are multiple forms of sanction the plaintiff's lawyer might be hit with, and often will. If it was a bona fide case that simply didn't survive dismissal (without prejudice -- meaning it could be corrected and refiled at a later date), though, then it might not be considered frivolous.
 
CorpusERdoc said:
With that being said, it is not likely to affect the evaluation of all the residents --> just the one who made the invitation. If this outlier affects the overall evaluation it can be addressed with higher-ups. It may not be legal action, but the attention may be effective.
Click to expand...

I don't know how evals are done at other schools, but generally the various people's input isn't separated out and so you'd have a hard time knowing who said what. So I'm not sure how you know whether or not to complain. And how you would know that you got a bad comment from someone for not attending a dinner, or got a bad comment because you were, in someone's opinion, subpar.
 
Law2Doc said:
I don't know how evals are done at other schools, but generally the various people's input isn't separated out and so you'd have a hard time knowing who said what. So I'm not sure how you know whether or not to complain. And how you would know that you got a bad comment from someone for not attending a dinner, or got a bad comment because you were, in someone's opinion, subpar.
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In most of my rotations, you get the evaluation from the person you worked with the most. If the person I worked with the most didn't like me, I just got the eval from someone who did.

There was a case when they used the resident input to fill out the evals (we had an card filled out by a resident at every shift.) On that rotation, it was easy to pinpoint who filled out an outlying card.
 
Well, I think at most places you don't choose who evaluates you. Sometimes it's one person, and sometimes the coordinator compiles comments from multiple people. I totally envy the person who said they hade a choice in who evaluated them; this is definitely not the norm.
 
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