Solve the problems by taking US citizens who graduated from foreign schools

[medsRus]

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Why doesn't the military match take US citizens with ECFMG certification (who graduated from foreign school)??? It would solve a lot of problems, right? 🙂

 

[Founder]

I've seen a lot of bias against foreign medical schools on this board. Does foreign here = Caribbean or can foreign be say... Canadian or British?

 

[Apollyon]

Despite the problems, I don't think we've sunk that low.

One of the attendings where I was a resident is a Carib grad, a Major in the MC, USA, and is a fellow with the US Senate Committee on Terrorism (Fellow, US Senate Subcommittee on Bioterrorism & Public Health Preparedness, actually). He was quoted in Newsweek.

Actually, he completed the fellowship. Now (from the FEMA website): Senior Medical Advisor to the Assistant Secretary of Preparedness and Response at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

"Sunken that low"? Please.

 

[dtn3t]

Why doesn't the military match take US citizens with ECFMG certification (who graduated from foreign school)??? It would solve a lot of problems, right? 🙂

There is an AF fellow at WRAMC who is a citizen but went to med school in Israel. He did FAP, did his residency in the US, and somehow was lucky enough to grab a fellowship right out of residency. It can happen.

 

[Apollyon]

Yes, "sunken that low". We are having problems, but we do not need to go scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Incredibly, FEMA, the US Senate, and the US Army disagree with you.

 

[elderjack21]

I work with fellows from Australia, Britain, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Canada, Israel, and even Brazil. But, the ones that get in where I work are the cream of the crop who are sent off by their respective countries for additional training (with the expectation that they will come home, although many of them just stay for the better pay and lifestyle.)

The point is, there are exceptions to everything, and no doubt their are some stellar performers from international schools...the ones in the Carib may be more suspect than the big names schools from some of the countries I mentioned above, but I am sure the Carib puts out some fine students as well. But, on average, your Caribbean student isn't of the same quality as your US graduate. But, if they can match into a US residency, why not let them get FAP? If they are US citizens of course.

 

[medsRus]

What options do IMG (US-citizens) have for military medicine and financial/repayment programs? 😱 Thanks!

 

[medsRus]

How about offering US-citizen IMGs certified by the ECFMG to gain residency positions?

 

[notdeadyet]

I've seen a lot of bias against foreign medical schools on this board. Does foreign here = Caribbean or can foreign be say... Canadian or British?

I don't think most folk would include Canadian as foreign, because the Canadian medical schools are LCME accredited.

 

[Perrotfish]

1) Scholarships are offered prior to the start of school, of after the first year. But the attrition rate from the Carib schools is enormous, meaning the military would be stuck holding the bag for many more students who couldn't hack it

So make it conditional that if they fail out they go to OCS and, if they fail out of that, that they enlist. Don´t commision them through ODS until they´re done with medical school.

3) A military internship is the default position. We already know that many mediocre Carib graudates can't get into U.S. residency programs. Instead of accepting the Natural Selection priniciple that normally operates with the foreign grads, we would be in effect guaranteeing them a residency. This would both dilute the quality of our residents, and result in a large number of Carib students trying to enter the program in order to guarantee their future.

Again, give the US docs priority and if the Caribs fail to match make them serve out their obligation in medical administration or something similar. However I think the point is that full military internship slots are always better than empty slots

 

[Founder]

I would. And I have a healthy skepticism towards any American citizen who willingly moves to a foreign nation to go to school.

I'm sorry, but this sounds like unsubstantiated elitism. Or snobbery on the part of us Americans.

Let me ask: Why do people go "Wow you went to Oxford!" when people are Rhodes Scholars. Yet god forbid they go to a foreign medical school? I can understand the bias against the Caribbean schools, I can. But a school in Australia, Britain, France, Japan, etc.? Please.

I honestly do not understand the bias against foreign schools. Do people associated foreign with for-profit schools?

 

[Founder]

I compared it to Oxford because I was making a blanket comparison. Everyone seems to be grouping all foreign schools into one group, so I might as well group a top tier school with all the lower tier colleges as well. Ya know?

Do you think all American medical students, on the flip side, are prepared to practice in foreign countries?

You seem to have this bias, yet that is all it is. I don't see anything backing up your statement.

I basically see you and others saying "foreign=inferior" to the American medical system. And from my perspective it is a snobbish and unsubstantiated attack.

Why does it matter if a small Caribbean country has a medical school and attracts students from other countries? Personally I would not go there, but I am not just going to dismiss the school without looking at the student.

You ask if a couple great people from foreign med schools makes all the med schools comparable to ours. Well do a few great people from ours make ours comparable to theirs?

Maybe some here are forgetting, but there can only be 1 person at the top of their class. Bell curves exist for a reason.

But hell, why does it matter? Everyone on the internet is a genius and scores 110% on every exam and is the best physician the world has seen. 🙄 I'm an average student, not top of my class, not a genius. I guess that just makes me a ******* because I am talking to people who are top of their class, super doctors who can do no wrong and get every diagnosis right. And if it weren't for military medicine holding them back they'd have cured cancer, AIDS, and found the cure for death! 🙄

 

[medsRus]

I compared it to Oxford because I was making a blanket comparison. Everyone seems to be grouping all foreign schools into one group, so I might as well group a top tier school with all the lower tier colleges as well. Ya know?

Do you think all American medical students, on the flip side, are prepared to practice in foreign countries?

You seem to have this bias, yet that is all it is. I don't see anything backing up your statement.

I basically see you and others saying "foreign=inferior" to the American medical system. And from my perspective it is a snobbish and unsubstantiated attack.

Why does it matter if a small Caribbean country has a medical school and attracts students from other countries? Personally I would not go there, but I am not just going to dismiss the school without looking at the student.

You ask if a couple great people from foreign med schools makes all the med schools comparable to ours. Well do a few great people from ours make ours comparable to theirs?

Maybe some here are forgetting, but there can only be 1 person at the top of their class. Bell curves exist for a reason.

But hell, why does it matter? Everyone on the internet is a genius and scores 110% on every exam and is the best physician the world has seen. 🙄 I'm an average student, not top of my class, not a genius. I guess that just makes me a ******* because I am talking to people who are top of their class, super doctors who can do no wrong and get every diagnosis right. And if it weren't for military medicine holding them back they'd have cured cancer, AIDS, and found the cure for death! 🙄

Right on.

 

[elderjack21]

I agree with that. To be serious for a moment, my main objections to the idea of offering HPSP to foreign med students are:

1) Scholarships are offered prior to the start of school, of after the first year. But the attrition rate from the Carib schools is enormous, meaning the military would be stuck holding the bag for many more students who couldn't hack it.

2) We already suffer from an image problem is many circles. Accepting perceived "2nd Tier" docs would only exacerbate this problem.

3) A military internship is the default position. We already know that many mediocre Carib graudates can't get into U.S. residency programs. Instead of accepting the Natural Selection priniciple that normally operates with the foreign grads, we would be in effect guaranteeing them a residency. This would both dilute the quality of our residents, and result in a large number of Carib students trying to enter the program in order to guarantee their future.

Agreed mostly. I guess the pecking order is very clear, and I will just use this year's match data as a general reference. 94% US MD grads matched to a MD residency, 70% of US DOs matched to a MD residency, and 45% of foreign trained MD graduates matched to a MD residency. Clearly, if they can match into a US program (they are at least better than the 6% of US gradautes who couldn't match...what the heck happens to them anyway?), pass other requirements to be an officer, let them take FAP.

HPSP does have to have some standards, and lets face it, we don't offer ROTC scholarships to kids going to school in other countries either. This is tax-payer money in the end and I think there would be some issues with taking all of this money somewhere else...

 

[notdeadyet]

Accepting foreign graduates, who learned in schools with no oversight from our government and regulatory agencies, is the position that requires substantiation. That's not elitism, it's common sense.

Common sense is aided by a little bit of knowledge. The oversight/regulatory agency for medical schools in the United States is LCME. This is the one that accredits your medical school. It is also the one that accredits Canadian medical schools.

You can have your point of view about foreign medical graduates, but Canadian schools fall under the same educational guidelines as American schools. If you consider their education substandard, you're calling your own substandard.

 

[350011]

In the case of US citizens at foreign medical schools, we'd usually be talking about the Caribbean. I'd note the lower board passage rate of US FMG's (primarily from the Caribbean) as a potential disincentive to investment via HPSP relative to DO/MD programs in the US. Perhaps it has something to do with government money going to foreign institutions or that they want access to us? Who knows.

I'll give you Caribbean schools as a for-profit haven for those of us unfortunate enough not to make the cut at domestic programs. But, I would not concede this as evidence, implicit to that inability to gain acceptance, of lack of suitability to medicine, intellect, etc... Is there a hurdle? Certainly. Are they as competitive in match? Maybe not. But, does the location of their UG Medical Education alone make them inferiorly qualified? No. There are individuals at domestic MD/DO programs with questionable qualifications on paper, too. Hell, look at my UG GPA. The number alone definitely raises eyebrows when taken without context.

To an earlier point: Canadian schools, come on? If you can't get into a US MD program you're going to have one hell of a time trying to get a spot at the schools north of the border. Only 8 of the 17 programs look at Americans in the first place and their overall acceptance rate (MSAR 08-09 says 25% overall, 19.4% for Americans, and 29.3% for canadians) is lower than that of American schools (43% last time I checked). There's a reason they're given equal accredit ion to American MD programs. Furthermore, I'm neither aware of any of them on the short leash that some US MD programs find themselves on with enough frequency to raise suspicion nor do I know of any of them encountering some of the financial solvency issues that have threatened other US MD programs in the past.

 

[350011]

So you take the USMLEs also? If so, then I probably wouldn't have a problem with offering HPSP to Americans at Canadian medical schools.

After standard security clearance and interviews, of course.

Yes, Americans in Canada take USMLE Steps 1, CS, and CK at the same time as their domestic counterparts, though they do have the option to take the LMCCE (Canadian USMLE's) if they want to apply to residencies in Canada. There is difficulty there as non-citizens are often constrained to the province of their training.

 

[medsRus]

Americans are enrolled in fine schools in Australia, Ireland, Israel, England, and elsewhere.

 

[NavyFP]

Why doesn't the military match take US citizens with ECFMG certification (who graduated from foreign school)??? It would solve a lot of problems, right? 🙂

I am told there has been some discussion about that, but the rule is that you need to have completed a US acreditted residency.

I've seen a lot of bias against foreign medical schools on this board. Does foreign here = Caribbean or can foreign be say... Canadian or British?

Canadian schools are acceptable and can be covered under HPSP.

 

[Apollyon]

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about offering full-tuition and stipend payments to students about to start foreign medical schools, with the goal of bringing them back in to practice in U.S. military hospitals.

See, that wasn't my point - I'm sorry, I didn't make it clear. I was speaking of residency-trained, US Citizen FMGs to go into military medicine. No FAP/HPSP.

 

[notdeadyet]

So you take the USMLEs also?

Yes, they take the USMLEs as well as the Canadian flavor.

Most US medical school matriculants woudn't stand a chance of getting into a med school in Canada (which by the way, you apply via AMCAS, like any other American medical school). Canadian med schools are more competitive to American ones. If you can't get in to one of the many US schools, you wouldn't have a hope at the Candian.

I would think you'd want to be careful about any snobbery about degrees. My understanding (and I could be way off) is that military med is pretty heavy loaded with osteopaths. Canadian schools are allopathic. You'll find bigger curriculum differences between osteopathic and allopathic than you would between your average Candian school and US alllo.

If so, then I probably wouldn't have a problem with offering HPSP to Americans at Canadian medical schools.

That's why I objected to your post. Your opinion flies in the face of the military policy of HPSP. It's already offered to Americans at Candian medical schools. So while you may feel it's an inferior education, your commanders apparently don't.

 

[medsRus]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why you think that is so unreasonable, or why you think milmed should throw its doors open to every Pakistani MBBS and Liberian MD.

Well, if these docs from Pakistan or Liberia are ECFMG certified (meaning passing the Steps, graduating from an approved school) and are US-citizens, they can be residents in any hospital in America? They can be your doctor when you have a medical emergency! So, if there is a physician shortage in military medicine in the states, why not permit such applicants (ECFMG certified and US citizens) to take a shot for a military medical residency???? 😕 That is what I don't understand!

 

[Founder]

Notdeadyet: Are you one of the people with some bias against osteopaths, even though education is completely the same? I think it was... Michigan where osteopath and allopath students attend the same, indentical classes. Then the osteopath students just go to their manipulation class.

Fair enough.



That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about offering full-tuition and stipend payments to students about to start foreign medical schools, with the goal of bringing them back in to practice in U.S. military hospitals.

The point of the thread immediately went into foreign schools being inferior. You can't argue about HPSP being awarded to foreign students, claiming those students are inferior, without starting a separate debate about foreign schools being inferior.

No, I'm saying foreign=inferior until proved otherwise.

I will not lump all the schools together. Is a school in say.... Bangledesh with 50 students, no cadavers, 3 professors, intermittent electricity, no computers, two anatomy atlases between the 50 students, and few books going to compare to premier American schools? No, obviously.

But you just cannot lump the schools together as "inferior" when many would have no problem taking oneself to a doctor from a fellow first-world nation like those from the EU or Australia, Japan, etc.

But concerning HPSP if that were to be given then I would agree that either each schools should be evaluated on its merits or the student after taking COMLEX/USMLE.

I could care less who goes there. But (if I had the choice) I'm not going to offer them a guaranteed spot in my hospital, taking care of our service men and women, until someone shows me that they have training as good as my own.

Then I must ask those who have served in foreign units if the medical care of foreign military doc is subpar? Anyone here serve under NATO missions with NATO milmed docs?

I don't care about them. I'm an American Naval Officer in the Medical Corps. I care about the care my guys get. I'm not trying to go practice over there. But if I were, there would be nothing wrong with them asking the same questions about my own education.

And when I graduate and get the honor to provide such care, I will care about the quality. But you can't give quality care if you are the only doctor and need to see 100 people in a day, ya know?

I am NOT arguing for quanity as a quality in medicine, definitely not, no way. And I'm aware of the problem of offering HPSP.

But aren't most foreign medical schools free for the most part? You could offer a financial incentive or citizenship. I think maybe citizenship would be an enticing offer for high ranked students/doctors. What do you think?

 

[notdeadyet]

I get it, you're sensitive about your school. Fine, I appologise. I had no idea LCME accredits Canadian schools, or that you take the USMLEs. I stand corrected.

Actually, I'm at a UC med school. I'm just familiar with the Canadian schools as well and was confused about folks could think of an "inferior" education at a school that's accredited by the same body.

If it ain't American, it ain't as good. If you support the quality of Canadian medical education, you must go to a Canadian medical school. There's a look before you leap thing going on here, Tired.

We are loaded with osteopaths, and I have no problem with that, because osteopathic education is essentially the same as allopathic education.

I agree it's the same education. Since you stated that your reason for turning your nose up at Canadian schools was because they didn't have LCME oversight, I was wondering if this applied to osteopathic schools too. US osteopathic schools don't have LCME oversight either.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why you think that is so unreasonable, or why you think milmed should throw its doors open to every Pakistani MBBS and Liberian MD.

I think milmed opening its doors to any foreign medical degree it doesn't have some oversight of would be a logistical nightmare. But the attitude of assuming any education outside of American is inferior until being proven otherwise just sort of smacks of lack of experience. Plenty of countries have medical educations of comparable quality. I wouldn't adivse having milmed approve them, not because of quality, but because of the headache it would be to do constant evaluations and QA of other systems.

 

[medsRus]

I think milmed opening its doors to any foreign medical degree it doesn't have some oversight of would be a logistical nightmare. But the attitude of assuming any education outside of American is inferior until being proven otherwise just sort of smacks of lack of experience. Plenty of countries have medical educations of comparable quality. I wouldn't adivse having milmed approve them, not because of quality, but because of the headache it would be to do constant evaluations and QA of other systems.

Military medicine as it stands now permits those with ECFMG certification and state licensure to join. Why not for residency positions too?

 

[notdeadyet]

Notdeadyet: Are you one of the people with some bias against osteopaths, even though education is completely the same?

No, I'm not. I consider them comparable educations. I was comparing osteopathic to foreign only to illustrate a point that just because something is not under the jursidiction of the LCME (osteopathic schools are not) does not mean that they are inferior to an allopathic US education. Hope this clears things up.

 

[notdeadyet]

The Europeans are supposedly equivalent, but how comfortable are you with their selection of students being made following high school?

Their high school education is not equivalent to ours. It's far superior. Talk to any educator. A high school graduate here means you're 18 with a pulse and an 8th grade reading level. In most European countries, you have constant examinations and by the time you hit college, you have the equivalent of much of your general ed done.

I'm not saying that the education is necessarily inferior. In fact, I have little interest in other countries' educational systems.

Wouldn't that indicate that maybe your opinion might be biased and ill-informed? It's hard to hold an opinion that something is inferior if you don't know or care about it.

It's pretty vogue to knock Americans for being xenophobic or elitist or whatever, I get that.

Actually, it's the xenophobia and elitism that seems to be in vogue. I think we're confusing the chicken with the egg....

 

[a1qwerty55]

However I think the point is that full military internship slots are always better than empty slots

A full slot with a dangerous doctor is worse than an empty slot. Trust me, you haven't been around long enough to understand, how subpar some medical school graduates can be. Statistically, like it or not, a Caribean medical school graduate is more likely to be a liability.

 

[Perrotfish]

Their high school education is not equivalent to ours. It's far superior. Talk to any educator. A high school graduate here means you're 18 with a pulse and an 8th grade reading level. In most European countries, you have constant examinations and by the time you hit college, you have the equivalent of much of your general ed done.

Um, I know the grass is always greener, but horse patootie. Some European countries, like Italy, offer the option between 3 and year HS educations, with the 5 year ed being college prep and the 3 year being trade prep. Their 5 year graduates ARE pretty well prepared for college, but guess what, our rich kids are pretty well prepared for college as well. Some countries, like England, make you choose a specialty part way through HS. Again, better prepared, but the trade off is that you more or less lock someone out of a medical school degree because they decided to try for A levels in political science rather than biology at the age of 15. Heck, I changed my career ambitions 3 times in college, if I had chosen at age 15 I would be a very unhappy journalist right now. I´m not aware of any systems of general education, where all HS grads are theoreticaly prepared to begin working towards any college degree, that are as much ahead of the US as you imply.

Edit: assuming similar per capita wealth. I´m sure every kid in Dubai has a better education than anyone in the US.

So just sit back and relax, knowing that the shield of the American military is protecting your sad little "country" and allowing you to flush your national resources down the drain teaching school children French and providing free ER visits to drug addicts.

To be fair, don´t we have foreign language requirements and give free ER visits to OUR drug addicts?

 

[Founder]

You don't want to lump them all together, and that's fair, but then how do you seperate them? The Carib claims to have U.S.-quality education on a tropical island. Do you believe that? The Europeans are supposedly equivalent, but how comfortable are you with their selection of students being made following high school?

I would say to judge the school you can either judge their statistics or how "successful" their graduates have been.

As for the Caribbean school, AUCS of M, I don't know. I doubt it on an overall student:student basis. But how would I rate foreign schools like European ones?

I don't know, but last I checked European medicine is comparable to American and vice versa.

Every partisan claims that their education is on-par with ours, but how are you going to actually judge this? The internet? Word of mouth? Some guy you once met who was brilliant and happened to get his degree in Indonesia?

I don't know as I am just a first year student. But I do know lumping them all together as patently inferior just because they are not American is shortsightedness.

I'm not saying that the education is necessarily inferior. In fact, I have little interest in other countries' educational systems. I'm saying that you have to have a criterion or criteria to figure out who is on-par with us and who isn't. And until we are sure they are producing doctors who are generally as good as ours, you don't take them.

Well wouldn't that require the national accredidation bodies to get together with their counterparts then to determine what is equal?

It's pretty vogue to knock Americans for being xenophobic or elitist or whatever, I get that. But the fact is that our schools are the standard by which all others are judged.

Uh... I'm an American on HPSP, went though college on ROTC scholarship, make Reagan look liberal, etc. I don't tolerate America bashing based on idiotic knee-jerk reactions to American policies which help the world. But I am not going to sit here and be a mouthpiece for something which may not be true. Are American medical schools "the standard"? I wont dispute that. But my problem is that that distinction has made American medical instiutions arrogant and that is my problem. It has clouded judgement to the point where if it is not American that makes it inferior.

I'm not here to sit and bash our great country. I am going to sit here and point out our problems in the hope that if they are solved our country and our military will be better.

And I had asked earlier in that aren't most foreign medical schools free? So financial incentives minus a stipend really may not be that great. What you want are people who want to be American and live in America and become Americans. The immigrant work ethic. Maybe offer those physicians the opportunity for citizenship upon completion of their milmed requirement?

 

[notdeadyet]

So what's your deal here anyway? You just cruise through the milmed forum to rip on Americans?

Not at all. There's a lot I love about this country. But beating our chests and assuring ourselves we're the best at everything is exactly the reason we're not. Patriotism doesn't require anyone to ignore things that need changing.

Here's the truth: We are the best, your lame little 51st State (Canada) blows;

You don't read well (which sort of reinforces your POV about education): I'm American.

You may not like the notion of "standards", seeing as how your gay little socialist utopia thinks everyone is equal, but that's okay.

Sigh... I'm glad that I grew up in a military family and have friends that serve. I know for a fact that the small-minded bigot stereotype that so many folks have about the US military is not founded in fact. You do a disservice, sir. You may not feel that everyone is equal but luckily in the mind of this American the contitution and bill of rights both seem to disagree with you.

your sad little "country" and allowing you to flush your national resources down the drain teaching school children French and providing free ER visits to drug addicts.

Again, an American here. And have you visited a civilian American ER?

 

[notdeadyet]

Um, I know the grass is always greener, but horse patootie. Some European countries, like Italy,

I think I used the phrase "some European countries" myself but should have done so earlier. I wouldn't include Italy in this. When a country has something like 50 governments since WWII, their social services is going to suffer.

Not all European countries have better education systems, but many do. Most educators who've read on this would say that in general, in many European countries the primary education is better than ours, but our college and beyond education is superior.

And this is about public education. Private schools are another ballgame. For those that can afford it, you can get a better education at many private schools.

Some countries, like England, make you choose a specialty part way through HS. Again, better prepared, but the trade off is that you more or less lock someone out of a medical school degree because they decided to try for A levels in political science rather than biology at the age of 15.

Unless they've changed things in the past couple of years, it's your O levels you take at 15/16 and your A levels that you take at 17/18. The A levels, which determine what sort of college you can get in to and what kind of course, are tests given as you graduate high school.

I wouldn't take their system either, as I think it stifles creativity and the ability to experiment a bit wth different areas. They avoid some of that because they have a more broad-based liberal arts education early, but it does make it difficult for someone to change majors.

My only point is that if you take an English kid who just finished his A levels and an American high school graduate, the English kid tests better in almost every metric. This largely levels out by the end of college, but it's no contest for the high school grads.

There may have been different results back in the day, but we've butchered education funding for a long time now and are paying the price.

 

[notdeadyet]

Anyway, Tired, I wish you luck. The irony is that I've actually been agreeing with you on the issue of being uncomfortable with blanket acceptances of foreign medical degrees without oversight. My only disagreement was your misunderstanding that Canadian medical schools were not under the same oversight as American schools. That's it.

But nothing burns through allies like childishly tossing out terms like gay socialist and whatnot. Get a grip, boy. But I wish you the best with the rest of your service.

 

[colbgw02]

I agree. Canada sucks.

How does that joke go? Canada had the chance to have French cuisine, British culture, and American technology. Instead, they ended up with British cuisine, French technology, and American culture.

Losers.

 

[notdeadyet]

I know you've been agreeing with me. I know you're an American, because I read your posts in other forums.

Ah. Sorry. It was hard to discern you figured that out from your posts describing Canada as "your country". Got me confused.

I also know that you have the habit of trying to show everyone how "cultured" you are by touting the wonderful educational systems in other countries while downplaying the attributes of American schools.

Don't know how much experience you have in education, Tired, but the attributes of the American schools are dying a rapid death due to neglect. Marketing them up as the ideal doesn't help them from going down the toilet. I taught in the public schools. You'd be hard pressed to find a public teacher who thinks thing are just swell. Waving the flag and saying everything in education is a-okay is actually the unpatriotic thing to do as it prevents saving them.

You just decided to be contrarian with me as a way to advance your typical internationalist agenda.

Internationalist agenda? Lord. Roll out the "America: Love it or leave it" and the term "pinko" and I can die a happy man.

Looking beyond our own borders doesn't make someone an internationalist, Tired. It's just a way of learning. You learn a lot more about your own country by learning about others. Look at the curriculum of the military academies and the military graduate schools and you'll see this to be the case. It ain't just me.

But regardless, best of luck...

 

[Perrotfish]

Unless they've changed things in the past couple of years, it's your O levels you take at 15/16 and your A levels that you take at 17/18. The A levels, which determine what sort of college you can get in to and what kind of course, are tests given as you graduate high school.

What I meant is that you choose a course of study leading up to the A level exam. I believe (correct me if I´m wrong) that if youre trying for A levels in political science and English you never take a science class after the age of 15, and vice versa for the HS premeds trying for biology and chemistry A leveles. So though the tests are at 18, you choose to be a premed at age 15. Of course you can then manage to fail the test (could you imagine if youre entire HS education was going to be judged on the basis of something like the MCATs? Im a fan of standardized tests stopping at minimum standards for graduation).

More generally, youve said you didnt like either of the countries I threw out there. So far though you havent defined what country it is that is pumping out well rounded, 18 year old, HS graduates with most of their basic general work done. I would like to know what country you´re refering to (seriously).

 

[notdeadyet]

What I meant is that you choose a course of study leading up to the A level exam. I believe (correct me if I´m wrong) that if youre trying for A levels in political science and English you never take a science class after the age of 15, and vice versa for the HS premeds trying for biology and chemistry A leveles.

My understanding is that there is a core that you are required to continue studying, which includes English. I don't know if the sciences are included. You definitely have the option of taking sciences if you'd like and most students applying to competitive schools do just that. In general, to be a competitive applicant, the more A levels you take, the stronger your application looks.

Most US public high schools only require two years of science anyway, which would be comparable to folks who don't do an A level in science.

Of course you can then manage to fail the test (could you imagine if youre entire HS education was going to be judged on the basis of something like the MCATs?

The A levels are the equivalent to your grades plus your SAT. It's a big pressure test, that's for sure. You can retake if you need to.

More generally, youve said you didnt like either of the countries I threw out there. So far though you havent defined what country it is that is pumping out well rounded, 18 year old, HS graduates with most of their basic general work done. I would like to know what country you´re refering to (seriously).

I don't think any education system necessarily produces well rounded/well educated 18 year olds. There's too much basics that have to be taught before you can get the well rounded part taken care of. That's why I prefer our college system, where you can deviate and experiment with different courses.

Where Britain, Ireland, Switzerland and other countries tend to do well is by giving their students a solid education starting early. We have been declining steadily in the reading, math, and sciences for years. And this hasn't been because of any push for "well rounded" either. The electives and programs that you and I could choose from in high school are going away fast. Music and art programs and other electives are being chopped due to budget constraints.

While I don't necessarily like Britain and other countries approach philosophically, it's hard to argue with success. Our graduates just don't have a good command of basic skills. A U.S. high school degree guarantees very little. If someone has gone through their A levels, you're going to get someone who has a good basic education. Many of our high school grads read at an elementary level.

We just don't do it like we used to. With the right funding and parental involvement we could. But education always gets short shrift because the changes you make now will not show up for 10 years, which is way after folks will have left office.

 

[gtleeee]

So what's your deal here anyway? You just cruise through the milmed forum to rip on Americans?

Here's the truth: We are the best, your lame little 51st State (Canada) blows; everyone wants to come to America to take advantage of our opportunities and resources, but we can't let everyone in, so we have standards. You may not like the notion of "standards", seeing as how your gay little socialist utopia thinks everyone is equal, but that's okay. So just sit back and relax, knowing that the shield of the American military is protecting your sad little "country" and allowing you to flush your national resources down the drain teaching school children French and providing free ER visits to drug addicts.

That sort of "ugly American" talk is degrading and deplorable. I remember almost an identical statement I overheard in a bar in the Golden Nugget (Los Vegas) in the early A:M. (Appx: 1981) as some drunken idiot was insulting a couple from Canada. The only thing such a comment provokes is contempt by any genteel person for the "knot head" making them. Also the comment is untrue in all respects. For the record, I am a former MC officer(discharged in 1989) after 3 rather wonderful years on active duty in the Army. Hence I read comments in this forum from time to time.

 

[Perrotfish]

While I don't necessarily like Britain and other countries approach philosophically, it's hard to argue with success. Our graduates just don't have a good command of basic skills. A U.S. high school degree guarantees very little. If someone has gone through their A levels, you're going to get someone who has a good basic education. Many of our high school grads read at an elementary level.

See, this sort of thing is why I think you´re getting a negative reaction to your opinions. You haven´t put forward a country that you actually want to emulate, and you´ve generally confirmed that you´re not willing to make the tradeoffs in freedom that European and Asian schools have made in order to get the resulting improvement in the ´metrics´ (not that you´re even that clear about what, exactly, those metrics are). However you´re still clinging to the "American = stupid, Europe = smart" belief that´s so in vogue on so many college and medical school campuses. If you don´t justify that kind of cynicsm, it´s going to provoke negative reactions in those who are more conservative and patriotic, who will give a knee-jerk reaction to someone they percieve as a knee-jerk liberal.

Now if there was a specific system that you wanted us to emulate, you would have perfectly reasonable opinion. For example I agree with people who want to adopt something similar to the French health care system, it´s a proven success with trade offs I´m willing to make and costs I´m willing to pay. However you don´t seem to be offering any such models for the American school systems, just bumper sticker truisims that an American education "just ain´t worth much these days". When asked why our education system is bad you use very nonspecific endorsements such as "most people think" or "generally people agree" to imply that there are many experts who endorse you opinions. The European system doesn´t have specific advantages, it´s just "better". There´s no data here, and more importantly no concrete alternative that you would prefer to the US system. You need to offer more than that if you want to convince anyone.

 

[notdeadyet]

You haven´t put forward a country that you actually want to emulate, and you´ve generally confirmed that you´re not willing to make the tradeoffs in freedom that European and Asian schools have made in order to get the resulting improvement in the ´metrics´ (not that you´re even that clear about what, exactly, those metrics are).

I don't think there is an ideal education system out there. That doesn't mean ours is best. Ours could be the best, if we were willing to revamp it and make changes, adopting some of the accountability used by Britain, for example, and learning from portions of education systems that work elsewhere.

But as it is now, it's a broken, dysfunctional system. Sorry. It's not a controversial topic, to be honest. I've yet to meet a public teacher or any education expert who thinks what we have works. It just plain doesn't.

However you´re still clinging to the "American = stupid, Europe = smart" belief that´s so in vogue on so many college and medical school campuses.

Ugh. I don't believe "American = stupid, Europe = smart", I just believe that they leave high school better educated. Sorry. Most studies I've seen have shown that their test scores are above ours and (more troubling) ours continue to decline.

We can change this. But not when folks are so sensitive that they shudder at any talk of modification or (god forbid) adopting lessons that have proven to work elsewhere.

Careful about leaping to conclusions. You may be closer to college than I am. I haven't been a college kid in a lot of years. I've spent the last five or so in a classroom. So I don't know what's vogue on campus, but I can tell you what's happening in the schools.

If you don´t justify that kind of cynicsm, it´s going to provoke negative reactions in those who are more conservative and patriotic, who will give a knee-jerk reaction to someone they percieve as a knee-jerk liberal.

You see, the problem is that what I've seen, read and studied does justify that level of cynicism. Our education system has been declining for years. This is not controversial. Right and left agree something needs done.

There's two views on patriotism:

You can believe that patriotism means never criticizing your country and believing that everything with it is right. So even as kids are graduating high school without learning how to read critically, without learning much of their country's history, and as our once fine education system becomes worse and worse, we'll say nothing. Our kids will suffer, but hey, at least we're patriotic.

Another view of patriotism holds that if you love your country, you have the responsibility to keep it safe and healthy. Our education system is sick. The controversy in education lies in how to fix it, but none of the expert claim its working. To pretend that all is good and fine and not acknowledge the problems is unpatriotic.

 

[notdeadyet]

Now if there was a specific system that you wanted us to emulate, you would have perfectly reasonable opinion.

The are many things I'd like to emulate. But I woudn't want to trash what we have and just adopt a new system without regard to the fact that our culture is completely different.

I'd like to use the model of England and Ireland for the requirements to show competency in subject areas before advancing, for instance. Due to politics, that's just not the way it works in this country. Because of this alone, we've watered down the value of our high school diploma to the point that it has very little value.

Some education systems are better than ours. This doesn't mean I'd push a button and adopt theirs part and parcel. But I'd sure like to take the parts that work and adapt our own.

When asked why our education system is bad you use very nonspecific endorsements such as "most people think" or "generally people agree" to imply that there are many experts who endorse you opinions.

It's because I avoid things such as THIS IS THE TRUTH and rather talk consensus. If you are really interested, a basic google search will give you the state of affairs: right or left politically, anyone who is in education is screaming that it isn't working.

The European system doesn´t have specific advantages, it´s just "better".

It produces folks who are considered better educated by metric testing. In reading and writing and (most recently) in math as well.

There´s no data here, and more importantly no concrete alternative that you would prefer to the US system. You need to offer more than that if you want to convince anyone.

Oh, anyone who believes that our education system works at this stage is not going to be swayed by something like data. But again, do a basic google. The most recent UNICEF report found that our education system ranked 18 out of 24 in effectiveness of our education system. We were beaten by Finland, Australia, Belgium, Austria, Hungary, Netherlands and the United Kingdom, to say nothing of Asian countries.

If I seem aloof, it's because there is no evidence based argument that our education system is working well. I don't get into these debates for the same reason I don't try to convince a creationist that evolution is what actually happened. If folks can't see we have a major crises with our education system, it's because they either refuse to see (because of challenges to their patriotism? I don't know) or because they just don't care.

Anyway, if you're interested in discussing education, feel free to PM me. I'm no more interested in debating education policy on a milmed forum than I am debating military policy on an education forum.

 

[Perrotfish]

If I seem aloof, it's because there is no evidence based argument that our education system is working well. I don't get into these debates for the same reason I don't try to convince a creationist that evolution is what actually happened. If folks can't see we have a major crises with our education system, it's because they either refuse to see (because of challenges to their patriotism? I don't know) or because they just don't care.

No, they just don´t know what it that you want, exactly. You say that

I'd like to use the model of England and Ireland for the requirements to show competency in subject areas before advancing, for instance.

meaning you want the constant and systematic testing in core areas used by these countries (a system being adopted in grade school through no child left behind and in several of the redder states through standardized testing, and which the teachers unions HATE). Yet at the same time you say that

The electives and programs that you and I could choose from in high school are going away fast. Music and art programs and other electives are being chopped due to budget constraints

Meaning you want a well rounded educatoin including lots of art and critical thinking. So what do you want: a Euro-Asian like focus on Reading and Math or the current US attempt to push for an eductoion government, languages, and art. You seem to like the higher level of preparation that A levels offer, but you don´t want to force our students into the constrictive system that that system of education requires. You like the results of the Italian system of focusing on the bright/rich students, but don´t like the idea of leaving out everyone else. I just have no idea it is that you actually do want.

The only coherent theme running through your complaints (and without any sort of solution offered, that´s what they are) is that the school systems need more money. Fair enough: so do college, health care, roads, the enviornemnt, housing, defense, and business. There´s not enough to go around, so all of them aren´t as ideal as they could be. I´m willing to bet you´re not able to choose between those either.

You have a lot of anger, and very few solutions. When people point this out, you accuse them of blind faith of a system in ´crisis´(a system which has improved over every 5 year period since the 1960´s, BTW, so if this is a crisis it´s a long freakin crisis), basically calling them idiots for not agreeing with the nothing that you´re proposing.

So here´s the challenge: describe what it is that you want the US educatoinal system to be. Ignore the government and the opinions of the US people, just tell me what it is that YOU want. If you want more resources for education that´s fine, but you need to say where you´re going to get them: more taxes, or less for some other need? I won´t accept answers like "less government waste", though. Europe has wasteful governments as well and I consider that answer naive.

Good luck

 

[notdeadyet]

When people point this out, you accuse them of blind faith of a system in ´crisis´(a system which has improved over every 5 year period since the 1960´s, BTW, so if this is a crisis it´s a long freakin crisis), basically calling them idiots for not agreeing with the nothing that you´re proposing.

Source? I'm curious to hear how our education has been improving in every five year period since the 60's. The only thing that's really going up is class size. Curious where you're getting your info from.

So here´s the challenge: describe what it is that you want the US educatoinal system to be.

If you don't see the problem, why would I spend the time to articulate a solution? Any solution is a waste of breath if you don't acknowledge the problem. You're not going to be convinced of the wisdom of chemo if you don't believe you have cancer. And I don't do the shouting at windmill thing.

Quick answer just in case you care (and I doubt you actually do): Smaller class size. Hold back students if they can't perform as well as they should for their level. Hold students accountable for performance. Provide outside of class attention for students at risk. New books and use computer aided technology. Devote more actual classroom time to teaching basics and less to administrative "competencies" that are non-education based. Get parents more involved in the education process. Offer elective training for students to pursue at liesure; mandate more time to math and science. Bring back physical education. There are a million tweaks. None of them are anti-american, but all of them require the acknowledgement that we need to improve things.

Anyway, you're more than entitled to your beliefs. I really didn't have any intent to talk ed policy here. The only thing I was jumping in with is arguing the notion that Canada's ed system is inferior because it isn't American. I didn't anticipate folks assuming that our education is the best, becaues it isn't by any yardstick. Not a one. But we could be. But not until we acknowledg it isn't now. Not by anyone's measurement, with the possible exception of the "Well, if it's American it must be #1", which is what's causing the apathy for why education is where it is now. #18, for example.

Your entitled to your beliefs, Perrot. But your notion that our education is the best just goes against every education-based organization, every publication, and every experience I've had as a teacher. Best of luck to you.

 

[Perrotfish]

If you don't see the problem, why would I spend the time to articulate a solution? Any solution is a waste of breath if you don't acknowledge the problem. You're not going to be convinced of the wisdom of chemo if you don't believe you have cancer. And I don't do the shouting at windmill thing.

Alright, so I´m now the idiot that won´t acknowledge he has cancer. Earlier I was the creationist who didn´t believe in evolution. We´re two posts away from me being a Holocaust denier. Name calling is not an argument, and I am not a windmill.

As for our primary education system, I´m wouldn´t say best. I would say our education is reasonable considering our culture and budget. I would say that we can´t improve our education without either increasing the budget dramatically and making financial tradeoffs, or making cultural tradeoffs that I (and also apparently you) would not be willing to make. Some possible tradeoffs that I would not be willing to impliment in exchange for more prepared graduates:

1) force students to choose their educational path earlier on. This is the A level method we discussed.

2) Let some students go. This is the Italian method. The low performers go to crappy trade schools and the better students get the lions share of the education budget. I´m not willing to leave children behind

3) Force students into a more disiplined enviornment. Longer hours, and if they screw up, corporal punishment. This is the Asian method. I wouldn´t subject my child to this because, honestly, there are very few teachers I´ve met who I would trust with this kind of authority. On a more philosophical level, I believe that for adults to respect freedom and utilize independent judgement they must be raised in an enviornment of freedom and independent judgement. You can´t raise someone in a culture of of "do it or I´ll hit you" until they´re 18 and then expect them to suddenly understand the values of critical thinking and independent thought.

4) Focus on testable metrics. This is the way education is actually going right now, with a strong focus on the easily testable reading and math skills with almost a complete disregard for the arts and critical thinking (i.e. no child left behind, Viginia´s SOLs, etc). This is the way that Europe went a long time ago. However that emphasis on critical thinking is one theory of why our graduates seem to do so well in college enviornments they´re supposedly so ill prepared for.

The second way to improve education is to increase the budget. The parts of the following post that are in bold are the parts that basically amount to ´more money´

Quick answer just in case you care (and I doubt you actually do): Smaller class size. Hold back students if they can't perform as well as they should for their level. Hold students accountable for performance. Provide outside of class attention for students at risk. New books and use computer aided technology. Devote more actual classroom time to teaching basics and less to administrative "competencies" that are non-education based. Get parents more involved in the education process. Offer elective training for students to pursue at liesure; mandate more time to math and science. Bring back physical education. .

Again, a reasonable argument, except where does the money come from? Health, infrastructure, business, science, defense, or maybe just more taxes on an economy already tetering on the edge of what Greenspan called the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression? I don´t see anything you´ve offered as a ´tweak´, or a resonable change. What you´ve offered is a wishlist. For example, on a personal level, if I say "I´m going to reduce my health insurance to major medical only so that I can send my children to private school" that´s a change, if I say "I want to send my children to the nice private school" without offering anything up in exchange, that´s a wish.

And again, if you choose to respond, see if you can do it without calling me an idiot in some form or another.

 

[EtOHWithdrawal]

So what's your deal here anyway? You just cruise through the milmed forum to rip on Americans?

Here's the truth: We are the best, your lame little 51st State (Canada) blows; everyone wants to come to America to take advantage of our opportunities and resources, but we can't let everyone in, so we have standards. You may not like the notion of "standards", seeing as how your gay little socialist utopia thinks everyone is equal, but that's okay. So just sit back and relax, knowing that the shield of the American military is protecting your sad little "country" and allowing you to flush your national resources down the drain teaching school children French and providing free ER visits to drug addicts.

This is a really discouraging post. Scary mix of homophobia, ignorance and narcissism.

 

[notdeadyet]

First, I´m now the idiot that won´t acknowledge he has cancer. Earlier I was the creationest who didn´t believe in evolution. We´re two posts away from me being a Holocaust denier. Name calling is not an argument, and I am not a windmill.

Holocaust denier? My apologies, Perrot, if you feel I'm calling you an idiot. That's not my intent. My read on your comments was that you felt that the education system is not a problem. I made the creationist/windmill comments to say that there's no point in debating a subject if the other party doesn't see a problem to debate. I should have said, "One is not going to be convinced...", but it's hard to pull that off without sounding like an a$$hole. But I don't want you to feel picked on. I apologize.

As for our primary education system, I´m wouldn´t say best. I would say our education is reasonable considering our culture and budget.

Our education system isn't the best and it's constrained by budget? Check. We agree.

I would say that we can´t improve our education without either increasing the budget dramatically,

Oh, I'd agree on this. There are tweaks and changes that you can make that wouldn't cost much, but many of the changes would require higher budet. As a big country with a lot of geographic, religious, ethnic, and linguistic diversity, we're expensive to educate. There's a lot of individual state autonomy which also adds a lot of overhead.

Again, a reasonable argument, except where does the money come from? Health, infrastructure, business, science, defense, or maybe just more taxes on an economy already tetering on the edge of what Greenspan called the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression?

Yep. It's a matter of priorities. And education, unfortunately, gets prioritized pretty low. I don't think that this is a slam on the American public and any disregard for their children. It comes from leadership. And leaders like tossing money at things that can produce immediate results. That's why a new mayor will fix potholes before tackling classrooms. Why woud you (sorry, "one") invest money in which the next mayor will reap the rewards?

And again, if you choose to respond, see if you can do it without calling me an idiot in some form or another.

Again, though I never called you an idiot, my apologies if it came across that way. And if you understand that our education system has problems that need fixing and just because it's American doesn't make it the best in the world, then the head-in-the-sand hat doesn't fit. All is good.

 

[Apollyon]

One of the attendings where I was a resident is a Carib grad, a Major in the MC, USA, and is a fellow with the US Senate Committee on Terrorism (Fellow, US Senate Subcommittee on Bioterrorism & Public Health Preparedness, actually). He was quoted in Newsweek.

Actually, he completed the fellowship. Now (from the FEMA website): Senior Medical Advisor to the Assistant Secretary of Preparedness and Response at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

Now this guy, Dave Marcozzi, is the President's "director of public health policy". He's moving up in the world.

 

[DrMetal]

wow, where did this gem of a thread come from. Lots of mudslinging! Perfect for a Sunday morning watch 🙂

 

[DH78]

I sometimes judge a thread's worth by how many posts I can read before I get bored. I made it to 47 this time around, so I would say this thread is a B. Overall, it's disappointing considering that IMG's, FMG's, AND Canadiens were involved 😀