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Something Afoot at MDACC?

radoncgrad2019

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I've heard of the MDACC way - but this may be a bridge too far!

The word is that Koong has completely taken over MDACC as his fiefdom and has straight FIRED Joe Herman (a gem of a guy) and has been bringing in his own cronies (Percy Lee, old ANDERSON trainees like Henry Mok) to be his henchmen

add more here if you know more

i hope joe herman is doing okay wherever he is. hasnt been heard from
 
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RickyScott

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I have never met koong or Percy lee, but really dislike how Percy came across on twitter with all the pandering and virtue signalling. (Makes me think he would make a cut throat/ overly ambitious colleague). I was trying to locate his tweet about how mdacc hiring 7 new attending was proof of a vibrant job market, but he may have deleted it- this certainly would justify calling out on twitter what is taking place at mdacc.
 
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RickyScott

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Joe Herman can probably find a job in many places, but will almost certainly have to take his kids out of school and move his family. This kind of crap is what motivates me to post here. In a terrible job market you can be totally beholden to difficult personalities/tyrants ( ex bill Regine Sylvia formenti types) and they can make your life miserable.
This is an issue that does not occur to residents and medstudents. Most of us will not have joe Herman’s academic reputation (and also heard he is a genuinely good guy). It is so unhealthy for this field to have so little lateral movement/lack of mobility.
 
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elementaryschooleconomics

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is this a joke? Highly concerning if not

What in the world is going on in Texas???

I was literally just about to ask in the Twitter thread how Anderson had hoped to find enough work to justify hiring 7 new folks pre-COVID...maybe the funds for 7 fellowship stipends come from Herman's salary/7...?
 
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thecarbonionangle

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Joe Herman can probably find a job in many places, but will almost certainly have to take his kids out of school and move his family. This kind of crap is what motivates me to post here. In a terrible job market you can be totally beholden to difficult personalities/tyrants ( ex bill Regine Sylvia formenti types) and they can make your life miserable.
This is an issue that does not occur to residents and medstudents. Most of us will not have joe Herman’s academic reputation (and also heard he is a genuinely good guy). It is so unhealthy for this field to have so little lateral movement/lack of mobility.

yes this is something that should be repeated over and over. You move your family and roots across country for what looks like Amazing perfect job on paper. Then things dont work out. Now you’re totally screwed in a bad job market, hiring freezes beholden to a bad job. Your SO and kids lose their job and school and friends once again. Great to be a rad onc
 
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radonconogs

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Joe Herman can probably find a job in many places, but will almost certainly have to take his kids out of school and move his family. This kind of crap is what motivates me to post here. In a terrible job market you can be totally beholden to difficult personalities/tyrants ( ex bill Regine Sylvia formenti types) and they can make your life miserable.
This is an issue that does not occur to residents and medstudents. Most of us will not have joe Herman’s academic reputation (and also heard he is a genuinely good guy). It is so unhealthy for this field to have so little lateral movement/lack of mobility.

Agreed on being a great guy. I rotated at Hopkins as a med student when he was there and he took time out his busy schedule to act as a mentor during my rotation. He also took me on inpatient rounds, offering a lot of practical and life advice along the way. Hope he’s ok.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN
 
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medgator

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you’re right this is the only evidence he ever existed




The cancer care arm of New Hyde Park-based Northwell Health has named Dr. Joseph Herman vice chairman of clinical informatics for radiation medicine and director of clinical research integration for the cancer institute.
 
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RickyScott

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Good for him, but 90% of a junior/mid level faculty would be totally screwed in similar scenario in today’s job market, and it is only going to get worse post covid.
 
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deleted605854


Incredible sleuthing ( have you considered going pro in the event of rad onc completely going bust?)

Good to see that Joe is doing well. As others have said, his CV cushioned his landing.
 
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medgator

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Incredible sleuthing ( have you considered going pro in the event of rad onc completely going bust?)

Good to see that Joe is doing well. As others have said, his CV cushioned his landing.
I've got lots of skills
 

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RickyScott

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In late 90s mdacc had culture in which attendants would vocally challenge/ really go after each other in morning rounds. spoke their minds no matter whose case It was. Given the kind of pandering on twitter, that kind of healthy debate may no longer exist?

Curious if this was a result of academic disagreement as both Koong and Herman specialized in pancreas. terrible If academic/intellectual disagreement played into this.
 
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medgator

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Dr. Herman was a Professor and Division Head ad-interim.
When another person gets that job, then who knows what happens to the other candidate.
I'm pretty sure they aren't going to stick around in the vast majority of those situations
 
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radiaterMike

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A lot of speculation here- though it is known that both Koong and Herman applied for the same job and Koong got it. Perhaps a committee just felt Koong was more qualified, or maybe he had less skeletons in his closet. Perhaps Herman was forced out, or possibly he wanted a different job. Who really knows or cares?
 
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medgator

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A lot of speculation here- though it is known that both Koong and Herman applied for the same job and Koong got it. Perhaps a committee just felt Koong was more qualified, or maybe he had less skeletons in his closet. Perhaps Herman was forced out, or possibly he wanted a different job. Who really knows or cares?
Bottom line is that Herman ended up somewhere else in a directorship position and that's all that matters. Still doesn't take away the mdacc hiring debacle or the fact that the job market is near frozen in many aspects for the number of grads entering the workforce
 
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evilbooyaa

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Seems like it worked out for Herman in the end if he's now in an executive position in the Northwell system.

Very difficult to know the timeline, but given that he has already secured a job, this is much more likely that he left of his own volition after not receiving the promotion he potentially expected (in favor of Koong).

That being said, I'm not privy to all of MDACC's inner workings, and I think MDACC certainly has their faults as shown on twitter, but I'm not sure this is the tree to be barking up.
 
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elementaryschooleconomics

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What exactly happened? 5 new jobs offers were rescinded and something like a fellowship was offered instead?

Without editorializing:

1) MDACC hired 7 graduates from the resident class of 2020
2) COVID happened
3) These contracts were reneged/altered/rescinded in some manner
4) Instead of being hired and paid as attendings, the offer was now to be hired as a fellow for 6-12 months with the plan that you will be hired as an attending at the end of that time period
5) Per SDN, 2 of the 7 either didn't take the offer or the offer wasn't extended to them
6) In real life, I only know that 1 of the 7 opted to go elsewhere
7) Per SDN, a senior attending was leaving/retiring and at least some of the new fellows would be paid from that person's salary
8) Joe Herman left for Northwell, and his salary at MDACC was tremendous (public information)

It's totally unclear what the salary will be for the fellows - my post above with the PGY6 salary information is just a guess on my part.
 
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metview

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Certain people in academic got what they wanted. Rad onc salaries have dropped....to fellow level. Also, if MDA grads can't get a job after residency, that's a bad sign. Their OWN program screwed them over. So much for loyalty and all those smiley faces from MDA faculty on interview days. If i was one of those MDA grads, i would feel betrayed.
 
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deleted774703

Certain people in academic got what they wanted. Rad onc salaries have dropped....to fellow level. Also, if MDA grads can't get a job after residency, that's a bad sign. Their OWN program screwed them over. So much for loyalty and all those smiley faces from MDA faculty on interview days. If i was one of those MDA grads, i would feel betrayed.

Agreed. I think job market is crap

But to be fair, this is more betrayal than MDACC grads unable to get job

If they didn’t choose to sign with their own institution, I’m confident they would have found a landing spot

Instead it would be the Mississippi or NY Methodist etc who would be jobless (or in Salina)
 
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RickyScott

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Agreed. I think job market is crap

But to be fair, this is more betrayal than MDACC grads unable to get job

If they didn’t choose to sign with their own institution, I’m confident they would have found a landing spot

Instead it would be the Mississippi or NY Methodist etc who would be jobless (or in Salina)
I think in some ways job market can be restrictive for MDACC grads in the sense that many are just not going to take a job at an exploitative private practice/ salina ks/Irvine type. I bet psychologically people in that position would rather do fellowships. Good part of the job market may be off limits to them.
 
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elementaryschooleconomics

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I think in some ways job market can be restrictive for MDACC grads in the sense that they are just not going to take a job at an exploitative private practice/ salina ks/Irvine type. I bet psychologically people in that position would rather do fellowships. Good part of the job market may be off limits to them.

That's a good point - if an Anderson kid comes knocking on your door in March of their PGY5 year, you KNOW you're not their first choice and are unlikely to stay very long...
 
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OTN

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I think in some ways job market can be restrictive for MDACC grads in the sense that many are just not going to take a job at an exploitative private practice/ salina ks/Irvine type. I bet psychologically people in that position would rather do fellowships. Good part of the job market may be off limits to them.

Plus, there's the (phase III data-free) "MDA way" they all practice, which can clash with other institutions.
 
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medgator

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The good people of Texas deserve more options. For many people they are forced into the MDACC system or the TOPA system. sad!

it's one cookbook or the other.
2 strong competitors. Better than what is seen in some parts of the country

 
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GI_RadOnc

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I've worked with some of the names bantered about here... I don't think there was anything nefarious here. There was an opening to run MDACC radiation oncology... Albert and Joe (and perhaps some others) were considered... Albert got the job... Joe wanted a leadership position and is eminently qualified for one; and found one. Rather par for the course for academic politics, frankly.

Regarding the job offers.. I would recommend the younger members of these groups note which group held back offers or changed them due to COVID and which ones didn't... gives a sense of the finances and/or corporate culture of the institution.
 
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w00tz

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I've worked with some of the names bantered about here... I don't think there was anything nefarious here. There was an opening to run MDACC radiation oncology... Albert and Joe (and perhaps some others) were considered... Albert got the job... Joe wanted a leadership position and is eminently qualified for one; and found one. Rather par for the course for academic politics, frankly.

Regarding the job offers.. I would recommend the younger members of these groups note which group held back offers or changed them due to COVID and which ones didn't... gives a sense of the finances and/or corporate culture of the institution.

Agree. Since he has job lined up already, probably a planned departure.

Regarding keeping track of groups that held back/changed offers - probably only applies to graduates of top tier programs who may have a little more options. Everyone else - you get what you get.

1592500366484.png
 
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GI_RadOnc

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Yes, finding an employer that did not delay the start date or experience any hospital-wide salary cuts is critical.

Impossible to have lots of choices, but may be something to ask on job interviews going forward.

Word out is that the MDACC 'fellows' now have their original attending physician offers back? Could someone confirm? No matter how much trolly fun one can have picking on MDACC/MSKCC/JointCenter... it is good for our field for them to have solid finances and job opportunities; 'cause it can only be worse for the rest of us!
 
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Mandelin Rain

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Word out is that the MDACC 'fellows' now have their original attending physician offers back? Could someone confirm? No matter how much trolly fun one can have picking on MDACC/MSKCC/JointCenter... it is good for our field for them to have solid finances and job opportunities; 'cause it can only be worse for the rest of us!
For sure. Not just for our field, but for those 5 or 7 human doctors. Happy for them in particular if this is the case!
 
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evilbooyaa

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Word out is that the MDACC 'fellows' now have their original attending physician offers back? Could someone confirm? No matter how much trolly fun one can have picking on MDACC/MSKCC/JointCenter... it is good for our field for them to have solid finances and job opportunities; 'cause it can only be worse for the rest of us!

I feel like I would have instantly read this on twitter if it were true. Not doubting that it is, but I suppose twitter pressure finally made the evil empire shell out the attending salaries that they promised, as per a contract.

Dang, major medical corporations being held to a contract - that's what we're celebrating in 2020.

Regardless - good for the 7 attendings (assuming they all decide to come back to MDACC).
 
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elementaryschooleconomics

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I heard directly from one involved this is more or less True a few days ago. I don't think starting dates are nailed down but on the order of 2-4 months. Didn't get word on what changed, but glad to hear something did. Guess mdacc made sure they wanted it.

Agreed, I've heard the same. Unclear if all the original offers are back on or just for the ones who agreed to the fellowship deal initially.
 
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medgator

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Agreed, I've heard the same. Unclear if all the original offers are back on or just for the ones who agreed to the fellowship deal initially.
I'm hearing it's the ones who had signed contracts. Legal ramifications there. Guessing the ones who didn't sign before the hiring freeze are probably still SOL
 
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GapCalc

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I'm hearing it's the ones who had signed contracts. Legal ramifications there. Guessing the ones who didn't sign before the hiring freeze are probably still SOL

Just the way to start out your first attending job, holding your employer’s feet to the fire so they honor their side of the deal. Regardless, I’m glad these folks haven’t had to be underpaid for their labor as “fellows” for a year.
 
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