Something not to do on your path rotation

[Zinc Finger]

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but it needs to be said. New residents are still adjusting and students are applying and doing away rotations. One thing that you would have hopefully already learned in medical school is not to second guess the resident in front of the attending. You are an observing medical student. Do not forget this. It is my ass on the line and when the attending asks me about my case, this is not an opportunity for you to voice doubt about my opinion. I understand you want to impress, but by attempting to throw me under the bus with your wrong opinion and trying to make me look bad in front of the attending, will surely result in me later making you look equally bad in front of the program director. You spent at least hundreds of dollars to do this away rotation. Don't ruin your chance at a match you want for something like this.

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[KeratinPearls]

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but it needs to be said. New residents are still adjusting and students are applying and doing away rotations. One thing that you would have hopefully already learned in medical school is not to second guess the resident in front of the attending. You are an observing medical student. Do not forget this. It is my ass on the line and when the attending asks me about my case, this is not an opportunity for you to voice doubt about my opinion. I understand you want to impress, but by attempting to throw me under the bus with your wrong opinion and trying to make me look bad in front of the attending, will surely result in me later making you look equally bad in front of the program director. You spent at least hundreds of dollars to do this away rotation. Don't ruin your chance at a match you want for something like this.

Wow, a medical student really voiced doubt about your opinion on a case? First of all, it's great to hear a medical student participating, but to have one voice doubt about your opinion (as a resident) is insane. I woulda been pissed as well.

 

[pathstudent]

Totally disagree. I was on a med student pathology rotation where a newly minted junior GI lver faculty at an elite academic medical center was pimped by the senior faculty "how many genotypes of HCV are there?" She didn't have a ****ing clue. When she didn't know, I said "six, three of which are most common in the U.S." Maybe there is more now, but at the time there were six HCV genotypes.

He wrote me a killer letter of recommendation that opened a lot of doors for me.

Remember, your job is not to be liked. It is not a popularity contest. There are no unwritten rules.

 

[Zinc Finger]

Totally disagree. I was on a med student pathology rotation where a newly minted junior GI lver faculty at an elite academic medical center was pimped by the senior faculty "how many genotypes of HCV are there?" She didn't have a ****ing clue. When she didn't know, I said "six, three of which are most common in the U.S." Maybe there is more now, but at the time there were six HCV genotypes.

He wrote me a killer letter of recommendation that opened a lot of doors for me.

Remember, your job is not to be liked. It is not a popularity contest. There are no unwritten rules.

Congratulations on knowing the HCV genotypes. However, your anecdote has nothing to do with my post. The question wasn't about trivia. Rather, I was asked historical information about my case, of which this student had seen nothing more than a single statement written by a tech. Your input, as usual, contributes nothing to this thread. Thanks.

 

[malchik]

Remember, your job is not to be liked. It is not a popularity contest. There are no unwritten rules.

Actually, your job as a visiting med student on an audition rotation is precisely TO BE LIKED. It is, in fact, a popularity contest.

 

[zao275]

Actually, your job as a visiting med student on an audition rotation is precisely TO BE LIKED. It is, in fact, a popularity contest.

I would have to second this. I would MUCH rather have an enthusiastic, fun, hard working but easy to get along with applicant than a brilliant applicant that has no social skills or is difficult to work with. I think most people I know feel similarly. Maybe this is not how it should be (I don't see anything wrong it!), but, regardless, this is how the system works.

 

[simplesuture]

hey, drama queen.

as a first year resident, your ass is not on the line, and a med student speaking up is not "throwing you under the bus". if they're wrong about something, then they're wrong. but if they're right, are you saying they shouldn't participate?

get over yourself. smoke a j and relax bro

 

[SPQR]

The right thing to do is to always make your immediate senior look good in front of the boss. And if you can also make yourself look good, then that is even better.

My mentors have always told me that interpersonal skills (able to work in a group practice) is one of the key factors in getting people to hire you. [with the understanding that one is competent (e.g. training, board certification)].


To share an experience: when I was a MS-IV, I did a month of derm towards the end (easy month). I showed up on time and left at the same time as other med students. There was, however, one visiting student from a different school who spent the whole month kissing the attending's ass and trying to show off her derm knowledge (at the expense of other medstudents). Even though she was somewhat annoying, we were impressed by her passion for derm and her "school" as she was wearing a med student lab jacket embroidered with the hospital logo from "more prestigeous" medical school in the New York metropolitan area.

Later on in the month, we found out that this is her 3rd derm rotation as a med student and that she is actually a caribbean school student who was wearing lab jack from the hospital she visited during her previous derm rotation. Its kinda sad, that her efforts were futile b/c our derm (like all derm programs) dept would not even consider any applicants unless they are AMG+AOA+multiple publication.

So I learned that sometime, the most vocal people who are eager to show off are often trying to hide something.

 

[BierstiefelAndy]

Later on in the month, we found out that this is her 3rd derm rotation as a med student and that she is actually a caribbean school student who was wearing lab jack from the hospital she visited during her previous derm rotation. Its kinda sad, that her efforts were futile b/c our derm (like all derm programs) dept would not even consider any applicants unless they are AMG+AOA+multiple publication.

Unfortunately, in this society where people can be discriminated against and have their applications simply dismissed based on a few little letters such as DO and FMG, some people have to really be aggressive. It's all about what you do with the cards you are dealt. That being said, this student failed (as a person, that is--we don't know if she ever matched) in that aggressiveness was equated with dishonesty.

 

[pathstudent]

Actually, your job as a visiting med student on an audition rotation is precisely TO BE LIKED. It is, in fact, a popularity contest.

Yes the point is to be affable and certainly not obnoxious, but don't be a wall flower either.

 

[pathstudent]

Congratulations on knowing the HCV genotypes. However, your anecdote has nothing to do with my post. The question wasn't about trivia. Rather, I was asked historical information about my case, of which this student had seen nothing more than a single statement written by a tech. Your input, as usual, contributes nothing to this thread. Thanks.

Agree with simple suture. Don't be overly sensitive. Everyone else with you at the time probably forgot everything about it within 5 seconds. So what? A med student was better prepared than you during one brief moment. Get over it. If it is bothering you that much, make sure you know your stuff the next time.

 

[yaah]

Unfortunately, in this society where people can be discriminated against and have their applications simply dismissed based on a few little letters such as DO and FMG, some people have to really be aggressive. It's all about what you do with the cards you are dealt. That being said, this student failed (as a person, that is--we don't know if she ever matched) in that aggressiveness was equated with dishonesty.

+1

You have to be careful with such tactics - burning bridges with half the department to impress the other half might pay off, or it might backfire. A lot of people simply do not have the social skills and powers of observation to fill that happy medium role where you can speak up, demonstrate your intelligence, and also be liked and respected. Part of everyone's training should be trying to figure those things out as well, not just "getting the right answer and making sure everyone else knows it."

I have seen all kinds of med students - those that are clueless AND arrogant are the worst. But the smart + arrogant are a close second. Although a subset of the population really likes the latter group.

 

[Freak]

I am sadded by the derm story in some ways, as it shows the true colors of the specialty. They do not care as much about producing good "in-person" dermatologists as much as good "on-paper" derm.

Agree with malchik and yaah. As I understand, 3rd year of med school it is all about "playing well with others". But this is very complicated, as you also are under equal pressure to "look good". There is always alot of talk of "good team-playing", but that does not seem to be encouraged in the evaluation process.

I wonder if the evaluation system in medical school in some ways breeds this poor attitude in. In some places, they have "absolute" rubric-based grading systems and the students seem to work well together. In places where the students are pitted against one another for X% honors ... those have a different vibe. My school has a mixed-model, and you can feel the change in culture of when you are graded objectively and comparatively.

 

[pathdoc68]

hey, drama queen.

as a first year resident, your ass is not on the line, and a med student speaking up is not "throwing you under the bus". if they're wrong about something, then they're wrong. but if they're right, are you saying they shouldn't participate?

get over yourself. smoke a j and relax bro

I so agree with the quote above. You need to chill, what kind of hellish place are you training in?

 

[caffeinegirl]

I do symphathize with you Zinc Finger. I do remember what it was like as a medical student, resident, and now attending...

From the resident's perspective, you only have a finite amount of time with the attending during signout, and want to show the work you've put into the case. When the attending asks for your opinion, the medical student shouldn't be jumping in. If the attending is asking the student's opinion, then it's fair game.

As for the student's perspective..there's good ways and bad ways to "show off" during a rotation. One-upping everybody is not a good way. Taking opportunities to show your knowledge when asked, or when it's obvious nobody else is going to say anything I think is fair game (of course if you know the right answer).

I've been around med students like you've described when I was a resident and it irked me (to put it mildly). I dealt with it by ranting about it, and letting myself cool off.

But now that training's over... all of this doesn't matter..not one bit.
My advice...rant about it, but in the end...chillax

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but it needs to be said. New residents are still adjusting and students are applying and doing away rotations. One thing that you would have hopefully already learned in medical school is not to second guess the resident in front of the attending. You are an observing medical student. Do not forget this. It is my ass on the line and when the attending asks me about my case, this is not an opportunity for you to voice doubt about my opinion. I understand you want to impress, but by attempting to throw me under the bus with your wrong opinion and trying to make me look bad in front of the attending, will surely result in me later making you look equally bad in front of the program director. You spent at least hundreds of dollars to do this away rotation. Don't ruin your chance at a match you want for something like this.

 

[twentyone]

The most savvy residents figure out how to make their medical students look good while getting credit for teaching.

An attending who makes their FIRST YEARS feel their "ass is on the line" is a jerk.

 

[TinyFish]

While I agree that, for the most part, us residents should chill out and not fret about meaningless daily interactions, I disagree that we should lie down and take it when inappropriate behavior takes place.

I mean, sorry, but some people are just plain obnoxious, and their behavior often extends to non-sign-out interactions. There's a difference between demonstrating one's knowledge vs. purposefully pointing out someone else's error or lack of knowledge.

re: being liked and kissing behind, social and academic politics often reward people who do it, unfortunately. It's not easy to strike a balance between attempting to be liked and being a semi-normal human being. However, we don't exist in a vacuum. I personally think that, even if you're totally antisocial and don't mind making enemies, eschewing your peers' good opinion entirely is a mistake. Sure, you might kick ass in the future to the extent that nothing anybody said about you would be able to touch you...or, the person in the cubicle next to you might have the power to affect your work life, let it slip that you're an unpleasant a-hole, and cost you a lot of trouble when you need something further along the line.

 

[pathstudent]

The most savvy residents figure out how to make their medical students look good while getting credit for teaching.

An attending who makes their FIRST YEARS feel their "ass is on the line" is a jerk.

I completely agree with you.

Having said that, I believe the original poster could be extremely oversensitive and introverted. First off, who gives a **** if a med student showed you up. get on with your life. Secondly the fact that he posted a thread about it says he is almost trying to threaten the med student by hoping he or she reads it about it here. When the truth is the med student is probably completely oblivious to the whole incident.

I have grave concerns about the O.P. and what he will do when he is a fourth year and gets hardcored pimped at an unknown session and doesn't know the answer but a first year does?

I am no psychopathologist but I believe we may be dealing with a quiet, introverted but potentially unstable and volatile person.

 

[myofibroblast]

So this might be a little off topic but I was was wondering what exactly do you expect of medical students when they are doing an away rotation? I just started my 3rd year of medical school and have known I wanted to go into path since I was in high school. I have an elective path rotation set up for this November so I will still be a VERY green 3rd year. However, no one really tells us what to expect or what is expected of us. I have never had a problem getting along with people and I am extremely extroverted and have a good sense of humor. I am not a type A personality whatsoever to my knowledge so I don't see myself being that student that is trying to one-up anybody. I would however like to be on the level that is expected of me and I am slightly worried about looking ******ed (for lack of a better term). Is it really necessary to stress about reviewing all of path, histo, and anatomy before this month or is it more important to just show up, be excited and teachable, and try not to step on any toes? Any advice you could give me would be very appreciated! It just seems like I have waited so long to finally get my feet wet in path and I can't believe it's almost here!

 

[Napoleon1801]

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but it needs to be said. New residents are still adjusting and students are applying and doing away rotations. One thing that you would have hopefully already learned in medical school is not to second guess the resident in front of the attending. You are an observing medical student. Do not forget this. It is my ass on the line and when the attending asks me about my case, this is not an opportunity for you to voice doubt about my opinion. I understand you want to impress, but by attempting to throw me under the bus with your wrong opinion and trying to make me look bad in front of the attending, will surely result in me later making you look equally bad in front of the program director. You spent at least hundreds of dollars to do this away rotation. Don't ruin your chance at a match you want for something like this.

That would piss me off too. Short coats need to know their place. Make sure to shank him in the hallway the next time you see him.

 

[zao275]

...or is it more important to just show up, be excited and teachable, and try not to step on any toes?

I like you already. That strategy has worked well for me. Don't worry about knowing everything. Just show that you are willing to learn and easy to get along with. The smartness will show up eventually

 

[yaah]

So this might be a little off topic but I was was wondering what exactly do you expect of medical students when they are doing an away rotation? I just started my 3rd year of medical school and have known I wanted to go into path since I was in high school. I have an elective path rotation set up for this November so I will still be a VERY green 3rd year. However, no one really tells us what to expect or what is expected of us. I have never had a problem getting along with people and I am extremely extroverted and have a good sense of humor. I am not a type A personality whatsoever to my knowledge so I don't see myself being that student that is trying to one-up anybody. I would however like to be on the level that is expected of me and I am slightly worried about looking ******ed (for lack of a better term). Is it really necessary to stress about reviewing all of path, histo, and anatomy before this month or is it more important to just show up, be excited and teachable, and try not to step on any toes? Any advice you could give me would be very appreciated! It just seems like I have waited so long to finally get my feet wet in path and I can't believe it's almost here!

Recognize that your role there is to learn about the field. Don't try to do too much, but be enthusiastic. It's good to ask questions but it's also important to read about what you see and learn about before you ask the questions. When evaluating, most people want to see that the student is taking some initiative, learning, and doing more than just showing up (lots of students do pathology rotations so they can leave early and not do much work). You also are correct that you do not want to get in the way.

 

[KCShaw]

I tried a longer reply last night, but computer froze. Anyway...ditto the last few. You're not expected to know much going in, but try to show that you're picking up a few things along the way. Show up, appear interested, see if you can find ways to "help" any resident you're attached to without bogging them down (sometimes difficult). Get used to sitting at a microscope for hours. After 4 years of residency I'm not sure I ever got used to that. Heh.

 

[TinyFish]

Recognize that your role there is to learn about the field. Don't try to do too much, but be enthusiastic. It's good to ask questions but it's also important to read about what you see and learn about before you ask the questions. When evaluating, most people want to see that the student is taking some initiative, learning, and doing more than just showing up (lots of students do pathology rotations so they can leave early and not do much work). You also are correct that you do not want to get in the way.

DEFINITELY.
Even as a first year resident, it is really nice talking to students who have read and at least know normal histology (not necessary to overdo it) and get excited about the same stuff that I (still) do. The vast majority of students at my med school took this as an easy elective during which to study for Step 2, and the residents and faculty seemed to appreciate the ones who didn't.

 

[LADoc00]

Interesting story. I forgot how much inane drama went along with training pathologists.

Ive found that in terms of being a sycophant, "aggressive" is the flipping last thing you want to be preceived of as.

Andy, you should know better.