Sorry, I don't shake hands with members of the opposite sex

[aj725]

Shaking hands seems completely speciality dependent. In EM, when a trauma rolls in, the last thing on anyone's mind is smiling and shaking hands.

But I don't view shaking hands as vital even in non-emergent specialities; for example, in FP, I know my MD shook hands w/ me the first time she met me and never again--its more of a formality of introduction thing. I know many specialists are the same way--only shaking hands with 1st time patients. To me, it just doesn't seem like the hand-shaking dilemma comes up over and over again in a given day--maybe as an FP you'll see a handful of new patients in a day thus you won't be thinking about avoiding hand shakes all day long since most patients are regulars anyway.

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[monstermatch]

But I don't view shaking hands as vital even in non-emergent specialities; for example, in FP, I know my MD shook hands w/ me the first time she met me and never again--its more of a formality of introduction thing. I know many specialists are the same way--only shaking hands with 1st time patients. .

Absolutely - I agree that you don't have to reintroduce yourself over and over to a patient. And of course, you can't greet someone who is unconscious on a gurney or in the O.R. Obviously that would be pretty silly - the sort of thing the nurses would never let you live down. However, you might want to consider it when a family member comes to you after trauma surgery and asks you if their loved one is doing well, is alive, is going to survive the night. Are you going to sit back with your arms crossed, eyes on the clock, and tell them they need to prepare for the end? Honestly, thats just not good medicine.

I guess I'm just not gonna back down on this issue. Why? Because I have a strong idea of how I want to practice medicine and I have no intention of letting anyone else's poor example change the way I work. Feel free to lower your standards - I'm keeping mine.

 

[Firebird]

No one is asking you to change your standards. I have no idea where you got that idea. I expect it was simply rhetorical. And as I clearly stated, I am not lowering my standards, either. I stand by the fact that this person could become a pathologist or radiologist with few problems.

I am afraid we've killed this thread, and I apologize to the OP for that.

 

[tigress]

However, you might want to consider it when a family member comes to you after trauma surgery and asks you if their loved one is doing well, is alive, is going to survive the night. Are you going to sit back with your arms crossed, eyes on the clock, and tell them they need to prepare for the end? Honestly, thats just not good medicine.

Personally, if a surgeon came to tell me that my loved one is okay and touched me in the process, I would be offended. Not only do I value my personal space, but I am also an Orthodox Jewish woman. So you might want to consider that, and not only for religious people. Never assume that people want to be touched by somebody they barely know, especially people in a culture different than yours!

All of the posts about Judaism seem to be pretty much on target, though the one about our dating and marriage practices doesn't allow for the wide variety in these practices within the Orthodox Jewish world. For example, I met my husband the normal way and dated him just like anybody else would, but no, we did not touch until we were married. The whole thing is way too complicated for anybody to explain on a bulletin board. Also, the rules governing when it is okay to treat a patient even if you are breaking halacha, or Jewish law, in the process, are under the general title of "pikuach nefesh", which if you're really interested you could probably google. It is, however, a fundamental concept in Judaism that one must break any rules except 3 big ones in order to save a life (the 3 big ones being idol worship, murder, and illicit sexual relations)

 

[Megalofyia]

I've learned alot about Judiasm, Muslim, and Mormons since coming to med school. I only wish I knew so much about biochem!!

I learned a lot working for the Boy Scouts about Mormons. Mostly about their underwear but other things too. It's an interesting religion.


BTW touching is so overrated....

 

[pillowhead]

Personally, if a surgeon came to tell me that my loved one is okay and touched me in the process, I would be offended. Not only do I value my personal space, but I am also an Orthodox Jewish woman. So you might want to consider that, and not only for religious people. Never assume that people want to be touched by somebody they barely know, especially people in a culture different than yours!

I think that's an important point. Don't assume people want your personal touch. I got screamed at by an angry, simulated patient (the anger was part of the simulation) for touching her arm/shoulder after a cancer diagnosis. Yeah, that wasn't fun.

I don't think personal touch is a bad idea by any means, but be aware not everyone is touchy-feely for a variety of reasons and that personal touch initiated by a physician should be very very non-invasive/slow, and you should know when to back off.

 

[macdown]

Personally, if a surgeon came to tell me that my loved one is okay and touched me in the process, I would be offended. Not only do I value my personal space, but I am also an Orthodox Jewish woman. So you might want to consider that, and not only for religious people. Never assume that people want to be touched by somebody they barely know, especially people in a culture different than yours!

I'm going to have to dissagree with you on this. One half of cultural tolerance is everyone is being aware of your culture, however on the the flip side you need to be aware of everyone eleses culture. If touching is culturally acceptable to this individual than you need to be aware of that and that act should be judged on its merit and intention, regardless of your culture. If the intention is not to personally offend you and is truly offered in comfort IT SHOULD NOT BE FAULTED! (This is cultural tolerance) You also have to realize that the physician may not realize you are jewish orthodox, does that make him culturally intolerant or ignorant? No, how is anyone supposed to know everybody's cultural and religious background (yeah, some are obvious, but others are not)? Am I supposed to ask every patient their background? I find that even more offensive and that would only perpetuate the belief that everyone is different and should be treated differently. If our society has come to a point were treating someone with respect is culturally offensive, then we are all truly doomed.

N.B. I consider myself a very liberal person, however I am tired of "uber" liberals preaching tolerance as a one way street (we can't offend them, but they can offend us).

 

[TruckGirl]

Now now, Firebird and monstermatch.. there's no need to fight. I think I understood what monstermatch was trying to say, and he/she understood me. BTW, I think you're referring to me as "the OP"? What does that stand for? Sounds powerful

Kaos - As I already said, I'm kinda behind in some Islamic aspects, but I still don't think that a person should encourage something they're not really that sure of or know that it's wrong. I don't mean to be judgmental here, but it's a known law that there should be no unnecessary touching of the opposite sex if you're Muslim. Although in a non-Muslim country, shaking hands would be something common, and some people may say it's necessary professionally, it can be avoided. Even if you end up shaking hands a few times, you shouldn't really take it for granted and start extending your hand all the time and be happy with praises on how firm your handshake is or whatever, unless you're shaking hands with other women. It's not really recommended to be encouraging other people to do the same thing if they're not or telling them they're being too strict.

I don't agree with the point mentioned about handshaking being "more forbidden" when it's with someone who is a potential suitor. If it's forbidden, it's forbidden. As for patients, I don't think it's necessary to shake hands with them if they're of the opposite sex. I usually greet them and smile or nod and they're happy enough. If they extend their hands, I would accept it, because I'm going to be touching them later on anyway, and I would regard it as part of the examination. But I wouldn't start myself.

I also agree with macdown, that sometimes it depends on the intention of the person, and you can't scream at someone who didn't know he/she was doing wrong when he/she touched you. You should explain it to them so that it's not repeated.

As for the comment on "uber liberals" saying tolerance is a one-way street. I do think that sometimes some things are only one-way. It is much easier for someone who does not have restrictions, to temporarily adjust to the restrictions of someone else, than it is for someone with restrictions to violate them for the sake of not being different. A non-vegetarian can have a vegetarian meal, but a vegetarian can't have a non-vegetarian meal. Usually, the people with restrictions are at the receiving end of tolerance. You have to adjust your actions to not offend them, rather than the other way round, generally speaking.

 

[tigress]

I'm going to have to dissagree with you on this. One half of cultural tolerance is everyone is being aware of your culture, however on the the flip side you need to be aware of everyone eleses culture. If touching is culturally acceptable to this individual than you need to be aware of that and that act should be judged on its merit and intention, regardless of your culture. If the intention is not to personally offend you and is truly offered in comfort IT SHOULD NOT BE FAULTED! (This is cultural tolerance) You also have to realize that the physician may not realize you are jewish orthodox, does that make him culturally intolerant or ignorant? No, how is anyone supposed to know everybody's cultural and religious background (yeah, some are obvious, but others are not)? Am I supposed to ask every patient their background? I find that even more offensive and that would only perpetuate the belief that everyone is different and should be treated differently. If our society has come to a point were treating someone with respect is culturally offensive, then we are all truly doomed.

N.B. I consider myself a very liberal person, however I am tired of "uber" liberals preaching tolerance as a one way street (we can't offend them, but they can offend us).

I also agree with macdown, that sometimes it depends on the intention of the person, and you can't scream at someone who didn't know he/she was doing wrong when he/she touched you. You should explain it to them so that it's not repeated.

So first of all, I wouldn't ever scream at anyone (I would be uncomfortable and suffer to myself, because that's my personality) and I don't care if you tolerate me or not. But basically my point wasn't so much to bring religion into the issue. There are plenty of people, religious or otherwise, who simply don't like to be touched by strangers. And it makes no sense to "comfort" somebody by touching them if this is only going to upset them more. I'm simply saying that doctors need to be aware of this. It is often obvious if a person is a touchy-feely type or not, but you should never assume, as a doctor, that touching somebody will be comforting. That's a simple issue of patient relations.

If our society has come to a point were treating someone with respect is culturally offensive, then we are all truly doomed.

That's exactly what I'm saying. YOU have to treat your patients with respect. That's your job.

[also, just as an aside, Muslim women and Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair, so it's fairly obvious that we are part of a different culture. You don't need to ask to figure that out. If you see me wearing a hat and a long skirt and long sleeves, you should assume that I'm from a different culture because I look different. Likewise, for female doctors, my husband wears a yarmulke, so it should be fairly obvious that he's Jewish.]

Back to the original issue here -- As an Orthodox Jew I do not touch members of the opposite sex. However I will shake hands no problem, because part of living in the American world is shaking hands. I don't even have a problem offering my hand, but I usually forget because, as I say above, it's simply not part of my culture, and so it's not something that automatically occurs to me to do. This is a difficult issue among Orthodox Jews, because many feel uncomfortable shaking hands. My take on it is if you want to go out into the world and work with other people, you simply have to accept certain aspects of society, especially harmless ones that aren't even a big deal. And to tie it in with above, part of being a doctor is making your patients feel comfortable. Many patients would feel awkward if their doctor didn't offer to shake their hand, so it's my job to offer.

 

[TruckGirl]

tigress - I agree that doctors shouldn't be touching relatives of patients or whoever else while trying to "comfort" them, if they didn't ask for it, because not everyone agrees with such a thing.

I think that dresscode is important for this distinction to be made sometimes. My friend who wears a headscarf was at anatomy dissection a few years ago, and an elderly demonstrator suddenly grabbed her because she was the closest to him, and he started explaining stuff about the breast to her group at the same table, and he actually touched her breasts. She was shocked obviously, but didn't say anything. But once she told me, I made sure I stood away from him or any other demonstrator for the rest of the year. I don't think some people really care whether they get someone's permission for this. They assume we're all students and we don't mind offering ourselves as temporary models. Actually, there doesn't even need to be cultural difference for this. Permission is needed no matter where they came from.

However, what I was saying is that I don't think there necessarily has to be a huge fuss over an un-intentional offense in some cases, because some people do make mountains out of it, and it might make people more cautious of not offending you again and respect you for maintaining your practices, but it might also reflect poorly on you if you were a bit too vocal about it.

Sometimes I get a feeling that some people feel a bit uneasy around Muslims, because they're not sure if they'll be doing something to offend them and they think of them as "angry" people who might shout at them if they did something to offend them un-intentionally. I don't like this "angry" image. And really, there are a few people who do try to maintain such an image because it makes them appear more religious (according to them). I recall there was one Muslim guy in pre-med who shouted at a non-Muslim girl next to him in biology lab, because she was wearing a short sleeved top. That's really taking it to an extreme, because we're in a non-Muslim country, and there are women wearing that everywhere. He has no right to dictate such a thing.

 

[kaos]

Back to the original issue here -- As an Orthodox Jew I do not touch members of the opposite sex. However I will shake hands no problem, because part of living in the American world is shaking hands. I don't even have a problem offering my hand, but I usually forget because, as I say above, it's simply not part of my culture, and so it's not something that automatically occurs to me to do. This is a difficult issue among Orthodox Jews, because many feel uncomfortable shaking hands. My take on it is if you want to go out into the world and work with other people, you simply have to accept certain aspects of society, especially harmless ones that aren't even a big deal. And to tie it in with above, part of being a doctor is making your patients feel comfortable. Many patients would feel awkward if their doctor didn't offer to shake their hand, so it's my job to offer.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. You put it so much better than I ever could!
If it's a situation where the patient isn't exactly sure what the "political correctness" of courtesy is, it is my/our job as the physician and the figure of authority in that situation to define what could be considered "ok," while taking into account the culture and social behaviors of the patient. A handshake is a great way to start. Besides, better to start off and get to know where you're supposed to stand by being turned down for a handshake than to just jump right in.

Also, when it comes to various exams and procedures, it's always much better to offer or ask to do them rather than just straight out start doing it, to give the patient the option to voice any concerns. That's the way I wiggle out of uncomfortable or potentially conflicting/awkward situations.

 

[TruckGirl]

That's exactly what I was trying to say. You put it so much better than I ever could!
If it's a situation where the patient isn't exactly sure what the "political correctness" of courtesy is, it is my/our job as the physician and the figure of authority in that situation to define what could be considered "ok," while taking into account the culture and social behaviors of the patient. A handshake is a great way to start. Besides, better to start off and get to know where you're supposed to stand by being turned down for a handshake than to just jump right in.

Also, when it comes to various exams and procedures, it's always much better to offer or ask to do them rather than just straight out start doing it, to give the patient the option to voice any concerns. That's the way I wiggle out of uncomfortable or potentially conflicting/awkward situations.

I didn't say I was going to jump in and start examining them without any greeting or introduction or explanation or even a short chat. I just think it's not really that necessary for you to extend your hand for every single person like it's something necessary to establish rapport.

I was just saying that Islamically, it's not recommended to enthusiastically support something which is uncertain. It is a fact that we are uncertain whether shaking hands all the time with everyone at work and staff is something acceptable just because we're in a non-Muslim country.

I recall a few months ago, I was arguing for a "moderate" Islamic opinion regarding decorating for Christmas or joining in a celebration, with another Muslim. And I was enthusiastically supporting an allowance for such a thing in certain circumstances such as a Muslim convert visiting Christian parents at Christmas, or Muslims being invited by co-workers or neighbours, in the name of good manners and respect. But after studying texts more closely, I realised that I was really talking without any back-up from Shari'ah, and I regreted it.

I will not encourage people who do not shake hands, to do so, in the name of tolerance or good manners. If they don't want to, it would be wrong of me to force them to sin.

 

[kaos]

I didn't say I was going to jump in and start examining them without any greeting or introduction or explanation or even a short chat. I just think it's not really that necessary for you to extend your hand for every single person like it's something necessary to establish rapport.

I was just saying that Islamically, it's not recommended to enthusiastically support something which is uncertain. It is a fact that we are uncertain whether shaking hands all the time with everyone at work and staff is something acceptable just because we're in a non-Muslim country.

I recall a few months ago, I was arguing for a "moderate" Islamic opinion regarding decorating for Christmas or joining in a celebration, with another Muslim. And I was enthusiastically supporting an allowance for such a thing in certain circumstances such as a Muslim convert visiting Christian parents at Christmas, or Muslims being invited by co-workers or neighbours, in the name of good manners and respect. But after studying texts more closely, I realised that I was really talking without any back-up from Shari'ah, and I regreted it.

I will not encourage people who do not shake hands, to do so, in the name of tolerance or good manners. If they don't want to, it would be wrong of me to force them to sin.

I hate to turn to a religious argument, and as the daughter of convert parents, I never, ever claim to know the religion any better than those who have actually lived with the Shari'ah for hundreds of years. I agree with you that it's up to the doctor and his/her religious beliefs and those of the patient to determine whether or not they would want to initiate contact by shaking hands with the patient, nor is it completely necessary.
But, it's my personal opinion and understanding of Islamic law that I'm working within the bounds of my religion when I decide to shake the hand of a patient (who would accept the handshake as a courteous, appropriate greeting) as a health care provider. I am an American too, after all, and it's as much a part of my culture as well. I'm not saying I'll shake the hand of every single patient. But when it's the right time or place, I would want to impart to the patient in greeting them or leaving them that I know where they're coming from. Whether or not that's a "sin" is up to the Lord to decide for me.
Again, I'm only speaking of my own personal views and experience as a Muslim woman starting out in medicine. I'm sure you'd find twenty to one among Muslims who'd disagree with me on what I do. That's their business, not mine. All I care about is whether or not I'd offend the patient.

I have other opinions on the other issues you describe, but I don't think they'd be appropriate for this discussion.

 

[Firebird]

OP=Original Poster

 

[TruckGirl]

Sorry to drag this topic back up again, but I just set up my own forums themed around culture.

It's a place for people from different cultures, countries or religions to talk about where they're from, what they do, their clothes, food, politics, share photos of their cities, or discuss their movies, music, or answer questions..etc.

I believe there were some Orthodox Jews who posted here. And I'd be very interested in having some of them join to answer some questions.

I dunno if linking to other forums is allowed on these boards, so I won't place a link. If anyone is interested in joining, please send me a PM. Thanks.