Specialization: Pitt vs Columbia

[Cutler]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hi everyone, long-time reader but first-time poster.

I have deposits at both Pitt and Columbia and now I need to make a decision ASAP. I really like both schools and have been back and forth about a thousand times. Basically my decision is hinging on cost vs specialization, as specializing is a serious ambition of mine. What I'm curious about is how much of a difference there is between schools in terms of opportunity for specialization. Of course Columbia is known for its high specialization rates, but I have also heard many times that it's the student, not the school. However, after interviewing at both programs I do feel that Columbia may offer a more well-rounded experience in terms of externships, community service, leadership, etc., which in turn could result in a more competitive application down the road.

And here's the rub... in my circumstances, Columbia would cost about 90k more over four years.

So what would you do? Are the opportunities and specialization rates at Pitt similar enough that paying 90k more for Columbia would be overkill? Or is it worth it in order to be more competitive? I have found info on Columbia's post-doctoral placement, but if anyone has any ballpark numbers or a breakdown for Pitt I would love to see it. Thanks guys

 

[summersy]

I don't know about Pitt's match statistics, but I would say Columbia hands down! Even if you are unsure the didactic education is far superior at Columbia.. Besides that You do get a good clinical experience among others... There maybe a price difference, BUT IT'S WELL WORTH IT!!!

 

[UCSFx2017]

Harvard = pretty much anyone who wants to specializes can do so
Penn, Columbia, UCLA = ~30%
UCSF = ~20%

I have been a big proponent of going to the most affordable school, especially if someone wanted to be a GP. However, yesterday I met an OMFS who graduated first from his class at Penn on the dean's scholarship and then went on to Harvard MD/OMFS residency. He said name matters so significantly that the prestigious residency programs in the Northeast do not even consider applicants from dental schools in the south (please take notice that I said "prestigious" residency programs and not "all" residency programs). I asked him how much the cost of dental school should be considered and he said that it's not important (even with Penn's >$300K price tag). To my surprise, he also said that research (i.e. publications) does not matter so much for matching into OMFS residency. Then he said I should have gone to a dental school with a medical school curriculum (i.e. Harvard, Columbia, or UConn) because I would have to take the CBSE which is a slightly watered-down version of the incredibly difficult beast called the USMLE. Finally, he said P/F curriculum schools like Harvard, UCSF, and UConn do not negatively affect your chances at matching and that H/P/F schools are basically the same as the graded curriculum schools.

I would go to Columbia so long as the ultimate goal is not to become a GP.

I've noticed that if you ask general dentists, they will almost unanimously tell you to go to the most affordable school or the school where you are most comfortable at (their reference point is their GP salary). If you ask practicing specialists from Ivy Leagues, they'll probably tell you to go to the most prestigious dental school or again the school where you are most comfortable at (their reference point is their specialist salary and their past experience).

I've talked to both Ivy League and UC applicants who applied to specialty programs and they say they consistently meet the same applicants from Ivy's and UC's along the interview trail.

 

[Chomski]

.

 

[rebmem eman]

Harvard = pretty much anyone who wants to specializes can do so
Penn, Columbia, UCLA = ~30%
UCSF = ~20%

I have been a big proponent of going to the most affordable school, especially if someone wanted to be a GP. However, yesterday I met an OMFS who graduated first from his class at Penn on the dean's scholarship and then went on to Harvard MD/OMFS residency. He said name matters so significantly that the prestigious residency programs in the Northeast do not even consider applicants from dental schools in the south (please take notice that I said "prestigious" residency programs and not "all" residency programs). I asked him how much the cost of dental school should be considered and he said that it's not important (even with Penn's >$300K price tag). To my surprise, he also said that research (i.e. publications) does not matter so much for matching into OMFS residency. Then he said I should have gone to a dental school with a medical school curriculum (i.e. Harvard, Columbia, or UConn) because I would have to take the CBSE which is a slightly watered-down version of the incredibly difficult beast called the USMLE. Finally, he said P/F curriculum schools like Harvard, UCSF, and UConn do not negatively affect your chances at matching and that H/P/F schools are basically the same as the graded curriculum schools.

I would go to Columbia so long as the ultimate goal is not to become a GP.

I've noticed that if you ask general dentists, they will almost unanimously tell you to go to the most affordable school or the school where you are most comfortable at (their reference point is their GP salary). If you ask practicing specialists from Ivy Leagues, they'll probably tell you to go to the most prestigious dental school or again the school where you are most comfortable at (their reference point is their specialist salary and their past experience).

I've talked to both Ivy League and UC applicants who applied to specialty programs and they say they consistently meet the same applicants from Ivy's and UC's along the interview trail.

Helpful

 

[gryffindor]

He said name matters so significantly that the prestigious residency programs in the Northeast do not even consider applicants from dental schools in the south (please take notice that I said "prestigious" residency programs and not "all" residency programs).

That's funny because if you ask actual OMFS residents where the "prestigious" OMFS residency programs are, they will name programs in the south. And in this case prestigious means where you will get to do the coolest, most hard-core OMFS stuff, not the name of the school on your certificate.

Cheapest school, always. It is upto the applicant, not the school, to match into a specialty. Harvard may be an exception to that, but that's not option for you.

 

[bumtherat]

Could you please go to Pitt so that I can have your spot at Columbia? Hahaha just j/k! I wish I were in your position =D

 

[UCSFx2017]

That's funny because if you ask actual OMFS residents where the "prestigious" OMFS residency programs are, they will name programs in the south. And in this case prestigious means where you will get to do the coolest, most hard-core OMFS stuff, not the name of the school on your certificate.

Cheapest school, always. It is upto the applicant, not the school, to match into a specialty. Harvard may be an exception to that, but that's not option for you.

Let's assume two things:
(1) Okay I also think it's absolutely on the applicant's effort for he/she to match into OMFS. Let's say if you could quantify "effort" and give this amount of effort needed to match an arbitrary index of 90. No matter where you go, you will put in at least the amount of effort equal to an arbitrary index of 90.

(2) If practicing OMFS say that the tuition of any private school does not hold them back, it clearly does not matter if someone chooses to go to a school that costs $300K versus $150K since they will put in an effort equal to the arbitrary index of 90 at either schools, match into OMFS, and still remain financially viable.

Now if a particular person values the name/location/program of the dental school more than they do hundreds of thousands of dollars, why not attend the dental school of choice?

If my reasoning is in any way flawed please call me out because this is how I'm choosing my dental school at the moment (1 week before I have to make a final decision on April 1st).

By the way, from reading SDN, it does appear that the program with the most diverse and in-depth scope of training appear to be in the south (UTSW, LSU, etc.)

 

[gryffindor]

Let's assume two things:
(1) Okay I also think it's absolutely on the applicant's effort for he/she to match into OMFS. Let's say if you could quantify "effort" and give this amount of effort needed to match an arbitrary index of 90. No matter where you go, you will put in at least the amount of effort equal to an arbitrary index of 90.

(2) If practicing OMFS say that the tuition of any private school does not hold them back, it clearly does not matter if someone chooses to go to a school that costs $300K versus $150K since they will put in an effort equal to the arbitrary index of 90 at either schools, match into OMFS, and still remain financially viable.

Now if a particular person values the name/location/program of the dental school more than they do hundreds of thousands of dollars, why not attend the dental school of choice?

If my reasoning is in any way flawed please call me out because this is how I'm choosing my dental school at the moment (1 week before I have to make a final decision on April 1st).

By the way, from reading SDN, it does appear that the program with the most diverse and in-depth scope of training appear to be in the south (UTSW, LSU, etc.)

Many dentists and specialists who graduated before 2006 don't realize the debt loads and interest rate dental students face today. Just something to think about in your discussion with current doctors.

There are a few things that hold true in dentistry no matter where you trained or what specialty you practice.

1) Patients do not care where you went to school
2) Keep your debt as low as possible.

An extra $150k in debt for a school name is not a smart decision. You may not be thinking about debt now. But when you graduate and are repaying $2500 a month vs $5000 a month because of your decision to chase the name of a school when you were 22, it will interfere with a lot of other decisions that come once your education is over. Things like where to practice, what kind of home to live in, what kind of car to drive, does your future spouse also have $400k in debt, etc.

Also, those who are starting dental school now and looking to OMS are not going to enter the working world until 8 - 10 years from now. We have no idea where medicine and dentistry in this country is headed. That's not a reason to shy away from OMS or a dental career, but specialties come and go. Endo is feeling the effects of this with more GPs doing their own RCTs and implants being popular over saving teeth sometimes. Ortho is graduating too many residents. Consider that not that long ago, Orthognathic Surgery was a solid surgical procedure done regularly by OMS with good reimbursement. Somwhere around 8 - 10 years ago, it got the medical insurance shaft and is hardly done anymore. That could happen with other procedures.

Your best insulation in having a comfortable lifestyle when you graduate is to keep your debt down. I have met new OMS grads in the northeast hunting for jobs. I doubt these grads would tell you to go ahead and take on an extra $150k in debt.

Only in academia do they salivate over your school pedigree. Some OMS do choose that route, but not most.