specializing as a DO

[Roadrunner]

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Do you think it's just as easy to specialize as a DO as it would be for an MD? For example, do you know many DOs who are cardiologists or gastroenterologists? It's my impression that it may be more difficult to get a fellowship as a DO, but what's your impression?

I'm a 4th year MD student but my brother-in-law wants to go to DO school then pursue cards--I'm not sure how to advise him in terms of his chances of being able to do this. Your thoughts please...

 

[dr.z]

It may depend on the speciality. I interviewed with cardiothoracic surgeon at TCOM who did allopathic fellowship. He was a DO so it is still possible.

 

[StringBean]

Do you think it's just as easy to specialize as a DO as it would be for an MD? For example, do you know many DOs who are cardiologists or gastroenterologists? It's my impression that it may be more difficult to get a fellowship as a DO, but what's your impression?

I'm a 4th year MD student but my brother-in-law wants to go to DO school then pursue cards--I'm not sure how to advise him in terms of his chances of being able to do this. Your thoughts please...

If he wants to do Cardiology advise him to go MD... it's just simply easier with less worries and hassle. Not that it's impossible to do it through DO but why if you can just go MD?

Just my opinion.

 

[OSUdoc08]

If he wants to do Cardiology advise him to go MD... it's just simply easier with less worries and hassle. Not that it's impossible to do it through DO but why if you can just go MD?

Just my opinion.

Nope, plenty of cardiology opportunities for DO's in the AOA and ACGME.

Cardiothoracic surgery on the other hand........

While TCOM has a new fellowship, it is very difficult to get an ACGME residency, although it does happen.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Do you think it's just as easy to specialize as a DO as it would be for an MD? For example, do you know many DOs who are cardiologists or gastroenterologists? It's my impression that it may be more difficult to get a fellowship as a DO, but what's your impression?

I'm a 4th year MD student but my brother-in-law wants to go to DO school then pursue cards--I'm not sure how to advise him in terms of his chances of being able to do this. Your thoughts please...

Some specialties are more difficult, due to the minimal amount of AOA fellowships and the high competitiveness of ACGME fellowships. Non-surgical fellowships are less competitive than surgical fellowships. You will find DO's in ALL ACGME fellowhips and residency specialties, however.

 

[group_theory]

As of August 1, 2003, there were 65 DOs in ACGME-accredited cardiovascular disease fellowship (representing 3.2% of all cardiovascular fellows). For gastroenterology, there were 45 DOs (representing 4.1%). For heme/onc, there were 40 DOs, representing 4.2%.

For General Internal Medicine residency, there were 1183 DOs in ACGME-accredited programs, representing 5.5% of all IM residents.

Source: JAMA, 292:1099

For AOA programs in 2003-2004,
Cardiology - 13 programs with 71 positions and 30 residents
Gastroenterology - 6 programs with 21 positions and 14 residents

Source: JAOA, 104:476

 

[DO_Surgeon]

Nope, plenty of cardiology opportunities for DO's in the AOA and ACGME.

Cardiothoracic surgery on the other hand........

While TCOM has a new fellowship, it is very difficult to get an ACGME residency, although it does happen.

Cardiothoracic surgery right now is very easy to get into. Last year nearly 1/3 of the positions went unfilled. I would venture to guess that Cardiology is much more difficult. However, keep in mind that there are a number of DO Cards Fellowships. A couple that I have first hand knowledge would be the one in Mason City, IA. Yes it is a small town/hospital, but they get a great training. Also this hasn't been posted on the opportunities website yet, but Mercy Medical Center in Des Moines is starting a fellowship next July. Iowa Heart does more caths than any place in the state of Iowa including the University of Iowa. I am a first year gen surgery resident there and I can tell you that it is going to be an awesome fellowship.

 

[macman]

from those who know me here, i'm a dyed in the wool D.O. freak, and I would still say tell him to go MD unless he is really interested in OMM, etc. I would not consider a AOA cards program unless there is one based at a major medical center that is dually recognized.

IM subspecialites, esp. GI, cards are an uphill battle for DOs (esp the good ones). This is not to day he would not get great training at a DO school.

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

You can get Cards from either route. I think the competition for DO fellowships will be much less due to the decreased application pool. There are currently 15 DO cardiology fellowships. At my hospital, we have three PGY1 IM interns who will be competing for two cards fellowship positions. I am not sure that any of the three even want to do cards but it will be an option for them assuming they perform well the next couple of years. Sounds like good odds to me. FYI: typically they select from within the program first.

Most MD institutions have IM programs accepting >20 PGY1's per year with a limited number of card fellowship positions. You can argue that these fellowships(MD) may be better but that's only speculation.

Bottomline: your brother-in-law should chose the school that is the best fit for him. He will change his specialty of choice several times. I went to DO school to be a rural family practice doc but am now PGY1 ENT. Most specialties can be obtained through the DO route, some are tougher than others though.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Cardiothoracic surgery right now is very easy to get into. Last year nearly 1/3 of the positions went unfilled. I would venture to guess that Cardiology is much more difficult. However, keep in mind that there are a number of DO Cards Fellowships. A couple that I have first hand knowledge would be the one in Mason City, IA. Yes it is a small town/hospital, but they get a great training. Also this hasn't been posted on the opportunities website yet, but Mercy Medical Center in Des Moines is starting a fellowship next July. Iowa Heart does more caths than any place in the state of Iowa including the University of Iowa. I am a first year gen surgery resident there and I can tell you that it is going to be an awesome fellowship.

I'm sorry, but I really find this statement hard to believe.

 

[subtle1epiphany]

Yeah, I hope DO_Surgeon is saying that it's "relatively" easy to get a CT fellowship compared to previous years. Which I can understand as there's less demand and need for CT surgeries with the expanding scope of interventional cardiology...but easy? That would be amazing.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I was told it wasn't that hard to get cardiology as a DO.

 

[(nicedream)]

He's right, CT surgery is easy right now. Horrible lifestyle, hours SUCK, compensation is down, turf war etc.
As for doing cardiology as DO vs MD - definitely advise your friend to go MD if that's what he wants to do. One of the big factors in cardiology fellowship application is research experience, something that would be very difficult to get at the vast majority of DO schools. Not only that but the whole AOA vs ACGME residency/fellowship mess, why bother?

 

[bobo]

I'm sorry, but I really find this statement hard to believe.

Believe it, because it is unquestionably true.

A DO doing an AOA residency stands virtually no chance of an allopathic cards fellowship, not only because many of the DO residencies are weak and offer no reearch but also because there are licensure and accreditation issues involved as well.

If a DO does an allopathic residency at a strong university program then I think they have a decent shot. However I would advise the MD route just to make things easier down the road.

 

[macman]

I was told it wasn't that hard to get cardiology as a DO.

the only way to know is to ask card. PDs at a place that might interest you...

 

[Roadrunner]

Thanks for the good info and opinions. I think the bottom line is that if he's interested in specializing that he'll have an easier time through the MD route. Which is what my feeling has been all along. His academic and personal background has made him more interested in DO school, but he may need to think about what his ultimate goals are. And the hard thing going into medical school, as you all know, is that your specialty decision often changes. That was the case for me--I was going to be a semi-rural FP and now I'm planning on doing general IM or maybe an ID fellowship.

Cheers and good luck with your various career paths...

 

[bobg504]

He's right, CT surgery is easy right now. Horrible lifestyle, hours SUCK, compensation is down, turf war etc.
As for doing cardiology as DO vs MD - definitely advise your friend to go MD if that's what he wants to do. One of the big factors in cardiology fellowship application is research experience, something that would be very difficult to get at the vast majority of DO schools. Not only that but the whole AOA vs ACGME residency/fellowship mess, why bother?

Contrary to what you may think, it is NOT hard for DOs who what to do research to get involved. I did research at the Mayo Clinic Rochester in Cardiovascular Diseases (my boss is a Cardiologist). On top of that got a publication. I will be returning to do a year 1 year research fellowship after this year. The bottom line is that you have to KNOW what you want and go after it. People need to quit using the DO thing as a crutch.

 

[mizzoudude]

I am applying to both MD and DO next year and I will go to whichever one I get into....I totally agree that getting a good specialty residency will be easier as an MD...but I think if you are a DO and really want it...you can still get it!!

I searched and I found ~420 records of DO cardiologists and 220 records of DO gastroenterologists...
Why does everyone think that DOs will not get good specialties?

 

[StringBean]

I am applying to both MD and DO next year and I will go to whichever one I get into....I totally agree that getting a good specialty residency will be easier as an MD...but I think if you are a DO and really want it...you can still get it!!

I searched and I found ~420 records of DO cardiologists and 220 records of DO gastroenterologists...
Why does everyone think that DOs will not get good specialties?

I don't think anyone is saying DOs will not get good specialty spots... I think what most people are saying (including me) is that it's just more difficult for DOs, more of a hassle.

 

[mizzoudude]

I don't think anyone is saying DOs will not get good specialty spots... I think what most people are saying (including me) is that it's just more difficult for DOs, more of a hassle.

Given that the MD is much more widely recognized than the DO, given that much of the physician field is filled with egos/pride/numbers....isn't it obvious that a DO would have a harder time specializing?

I don't think that this is the issue on the board....I mean...yes it is more difficult, but it is not impossible...many of those that go DO...(i said many..not all) is because they didn't do as well in college and take DO as the option...and they realize that they can't screw up again and study well and perform well....
Take a look at CCOM match list from last year...
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/CCOMClinEd/clinicalEdDocs/StudentMatches_2005.pdf

Many matches into peds, EM, neurology, Anesthesiology (MD even), Radiology, etc.

I don't claim to know all...I am but a premed (masters student), but it seems that DOs that study hard (not necessarily ones that do much research) have a shot at getting good residencies...I am sure that there are many DOs that are much better clinicians that many MD students...and vice versa of course...

 

[(nicedream)]

Given that the MD is much more widely recognized than the DO, given that much of the physician field is filled with egos/pride/numbers....isn't it obvious that a DO would have a harder time specializing?

I don't think that this is the issue on the board....I mean...yes it is more difficult, but it is not impossible...many of those that go DO...(i said many..not all) is because they didn't do as well in college and take DO as the option...and they realize that they can't screw up again and study well and perform well....
Take a look at CCOM match list from last year...
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/CCOMClinEd/clinicalEdDocs/StudentMatches_2005.pdf

Many matches into peds, EM, neurology, Anesthesiology (MD even), Radiology, etc.

I don't claim to know all...I am but a premed (masters student), but it seems that DOs that study hard (not necessarily ones that do much research) have a shot at getting good residencies...I am sure that there are many DOs that are much better clinicians that many MD students...and vice versa of course...

No offense, but as a premed (as you yourself admit) you really know a lot less about the topic than many of the rest of us.
For one, the OP was asking if it was "just as easy" for a DO to specialize as an MD, specifically in cardiology. The answer is plain "no". Do all the searches you want, yeah there are whatever # of DO cardiologists etc, that's irrelevent. You have to look at statistics more carefully. What are the percentages of DOs vs MDs matching? Is it AOA match or ACGME match (a BIG difference). Do you know the differences in board certifications and how fellowship application works? You'll find out.
Your statement that "many matches into peds, EM, neurology, Anesthesiology (MD even), Radiology, etc." is way off. First of all, peds is probably the easiest match of all other than FP. There are about 30 DOs that match into radiology each year - that's tiny. Your comment of "MD even" for anesthesiology suggests you were looking at overall matches and not just ACGME - of course the AOA spots are going to DOs, that means nothing.
Anyway, I'm not going to go on and on, but other than primary care and anesthesiology right now, you are much better off going MD.

 

[(nicedream)]

Contrary to what you may think, it is NOT hard for DOs who what to do research to get involved. I did research at the Mayo Clinic Rochester in Cardiovascular Diseases (my boss is a Cardiologist). On top of that got a publication. I will be returning to do a year 1 year research fellowship after this year. The bottom line is that you have to KNOW what you want and go after it. People need to quit using the DO thing as a crutch.

That's awesome, good for you, but I said "the vast majority of schools." I was also referring to during the first 2 yrs.

 

[bobg504]

That's awesome, good for you, but I said "the vast majority of schools." I was also referring to during the first 2 yrs.

I am in the mist of my 2nd year. Did a research fellowship this summer and after this year I am returning to do a clinical research fellowship for 1 year.

 

[NRAI2001]

No offense, but as a premed (as you yourself admit) you really know a lot less about the topic than many of the rest of us.
For one, the OP was asking if it was "just as easy" for a DO to specialize as an MD, specifically in cardiology. The answer is plain "no". Do all the searches you want, yeah there are whatever # of DO cardiologists etc, that's irrelevent. You have to look at statistics more carefully. What are the percentages of DOs vs MDs matching? Is it AOA match or ACGME match (a BIG difference). Do you know the differences in board certifications and how fellowship application works? You'll find out.
Your statement that "many matches into peds, EM, neurology, Anesthesiology (MD even), Radiology, etc." is way off. First of all, peds is probably the easiest match of all other than FP. There are about 30 DOs that match into radiology each year - that's tiny. Your comment of "MD even" for anesthesiology suggests you were looking at overall matches and not just ACGME - of course the AOA spots are going to DOs, that means nothing.
Anyway, I'm not going to go on and on, but other than primary care and anesthesiology right now, you are much better off going MD.

Does one offer a better training in general (AOA vs ACGME fellowships and residencies)?

 

[NRAI2001]

Cardiothoracic surgery right now is very easy to get into. Last year nearly 1/3 of the positions went unfilled. I would venture to guess that Cardiology is much more difficult. However, keep in mind that there are a number of DO Cards Fellowships. A couple that I have first hand knowledge would be the one in Mason City, IA. Yes it is a small town/hospital, but they get a great training. Also this hasn't been posted on the opportunities website yet, but Mercy Medical Center in Des Moines is starting a fellowship next July. Iowa Heart does more caths than any place in the state of Iowa including the University of Iowa. I am a first year gen surgery resident there and I can tell you that it is going to be an awesome fellowship.

Who do you think would have an easier time/ more competitive chance in getting fellowships after an IM or general surg. residency? A DO or a carribean med student?

 

[NRAI2001]

NRA: not trying to be a jerk here...but in the time that its taken you to compile over 2000 posts on SDN, you must have seen countless threads on the DO/FMG topic....

Well you failed. 👎

In all those threads residencies were discussed and fellowships weren't really considered. In general it isn't hard to get a IM or gen surg. residency for a DO or FMG. I was wondering more about after the residency. Lets say after doing an IM residency, how difficult would it be to get say a cardiology or GI fellowship? Which would have an easier time the DO or the FMG? 👍

 

[OSUdoc08]

Does one offer a better training in general (AOA vs ACGME fellowships and residencies)?

Programs are too variable to make a blanket assumption.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Who do you think would have an easier time/ more competitive chance in getting fellowships after an IM or general surg. residency? A DO or a carribean med student?

DO's.

ACGME fellowships will accept COMLEX boards in most cases. In the cases where they don't, DO's have higher USMLE averages than FMG's.

FMG's must take the USMLE and they have a poor pass rate.

 

[NRAI2001]

DO's.

ACGME fellowships will accept COMLEX boards in most cases. In the cases where they don't, DO's have higher USMLE averages than FMG's.

FMG's must take the USMLE and they have a poor pass rate.

But board scores aren't dependent on the school. They are dependent on the student. If that same FMG was at a DO school he would probably get the same score regardless. Also i am talking about the top carribean schools like SGU and ross. They have high pass rates, over 90% of their class passes.

So if they have similar scores, would u still think the DO would have a slight advantage or would the playing field be pretty level?

 

[(nicedream)]

But board scores aren't dependent on the school. They are dependent on the student. If that same FMG was at a DO school he would probably get the same score regardless. Also i am talking about the top carribean schools like SGU and ross. They have high pass rates, over 90% of their class passes.

So if they have similar scores, would u still think the DO would have a slight advantage or would the playing field be pretty level?

There are way too many possible variations to make a blanket statement on who would have a better shot. First of all, a high pass rate does not equal a high average. Everyone could pass but do mediocre. Regardless, there are going to be FMGs with higher board scores than some DOs and vice versa - I don't think whether you are a DO vs FMG is going to make much difference at the fellowship level. It will depend most on where you did residency, how you performed, and research completed in certain specialties.

 

[Dr Alo]

Do you think it's just as easy to specialize as a DO as it would be for an MD? For example, do you know many DOs who are cardiologists or gastroenterologists? It's my impression that it may be more difficult to get a fellowship as a DO, but what's your impression?

I'm a 4th year MD student but my brother-in-law wants to go to DO school then pursue cards--I'm not sure how to advise him in terms of his chances of being able to do this. Your thoughts please...

It all depends on the hospital you go to. There are tons of DO cardiologists and gastroenterologists. It's easier to get a fellowship if you go to a hospital that offers it. It's easier to do IM at an MD hospital (since they usually take just about anyone) then start brown-nosing the fellows/program directors in cardiology there and work your way into the program. It's easy. The reason it is easier to get MD fellowships..... is because there are more of them. But make sure you do your residency at a hospital that has the fellowship you are looking for, always easier.

 

[NRAI2001]

It all depends on the hospital you go to. There are tons of DO cardiologists and gastroenterologists. It's easier to get a fellowship if you go to a hospital that offers it. It's easier to do IM at an MD hospital (since they usually take just about anyone) then start brown-nosing the fellows/program directors in cardiology there and work your way into the program. It's easy. The reason it is easier to get MD fellowships..... is because there are more of them. But make sure you do your residency at a hospital that has the fellowship you are looking for, always easier.

Finally a real answer 👍 So basically expect to get a fellowship in house, and apply to residencies that offer the fellowship in the same program.

 

[(nicedream)]

It all depends on the hospital you go to. There are tons of DO cardiologists and gastroenterologists. It's easier to get a fellowship if you go to a hospital that offers it. It's easier to do IM at an MD hospital (since they usually take just about anyone) then start brown-nosing the fellows/program directors in cardiology there and work your way into the program. It's easy. The reason it is easier to get MD fellowships..... is because there are more of them. But make sure you do your residency at a hospital that has the fellowship you are looking for, always easier.

It is NOT that easy. Yes, you have a much better chance at in-house fellowships. Yes, it helps to work your way up, get to know the fellows etc. BUT, cardiology and GI are easily the two most difficult IM fellowships to attain. Typically the top fellowship applicants get into cards and GI while the rest do heme/onc, endo, nephro, rheum, and ID. Cardio and GI applicants typically have research under their belt and are the shining residents. 76 of 2,119 current cardio ACGME fellows are DOs (3.6%). 44 of 1,087 current GI ACGME fellows are DOs (4%). Getting these fellowships are NOT easy for any applicant, let alone DOs.
As for DO fellowships, there are 15 cardio programs, each accepting an avg of 1-2 applicants per year (about 23 slots). There are 4 GI programs, each accepting 1 per year, with the exception of Botsford which takes 2 (5 slots).

So, each year, there's an average of 25 DOs getting into ACGME cardio and 23 getting into AOA cardio. Each year there is an average of 15 DOs getting into ACGME GI and 5 getting into AOA GI. Those are numbers-based facts.

 

[pa2do]

It is NOT that easy. Yes, you have a much better chance at in-house fellowships. Yes, it helps to work your way up, get to know the fellows etc. BUT, cardiology and GI are easily the two most difficult IM fellowships to attain. Typically the top fellowship applicants get into cards and GI while the rest do heme/onc, endo, nephro, rheum, and ID. Cardio and GI applicants typically have research under their belt and are the shining residents. 76 of 2,119 current cardio ACGME fellows are DOs (3.6%). 44 of 1,087 current GI ACGME fellows are DOs (4%). Getting these fellowships are NOT easy for any applicant, let alone DOs.
As for DO fellowships, there are 15 cardio programs, each accepting an avg of 1-2 applicants per year (about 23 slots). There are 4 GI programs, each accepting 1 per year, with the exception of Botsford which takes 2 (5 slots).

So, each year, there's an average of 25 DOs getting into ACGME cardio and 23 getting into AOA cardio. Each year there is an average of 15 DOs getting into ACGME GI and 5 getting into AOA GI. Those are numbers-based facts.

Nicedream, I have heard that often, the AOA fellowship spots are not fillling their positions. There is no fact behind this, I am trying find some more solid information on this

 

[Taus]

It is NOT that easy. Yes, you have a much better chance at in-house fellowships. Yes, it helps to work your way up, get to know the fellows etc. BUT, cardiology and GI are easily the two most difficult IM fellowships to attain. Typically the top fellowship applicants get into cards and GI while the rest do heme/onc, endo, nephro, rheum, and ID. Cardio and GI applicants typically have research under their belt and are the shining residents. 76 of 2,119 current cardio ACGME fellows are DOs (3.6%). 44 of 1,087 current GI ACGME fellows are DOs (4%). Getting these fellowships are NOT easy for any applicant, let alone DOs.
As for DO fellowships, there are 15 cardio programs, each accepting an avg of 1-2 applicants per year (about 23 slots). There are 4 GI programs, each accepting 1 per year, with the exception of Botsford which takes 2 (5 slots).

So, each year, there's an average of 25 DOs getting into ACGME cardio and 23 getting into AOA cardio. Each year there is an average of 15 DOs getting into ACGME GI and 5 getting into AOA GI. Those are numbers-based facts.

.

I definitely see your point, however you have to realize that as DO's make up only around 4-5% of the total physician population, seeing them having around a 4% representation in a specialty is right about where it should be. ( ie one out of every 20 docs is a DO, and 1 out of every 20 of the specialists you mentioned is a DO....) If there were more then around 4-5% of DO's in a specialty (ie. PM&R ~ 14%), then that would be considered larger proportion of DO's then MD's getting into it percentage wise.

 

[OSUdoc08]

.

I definitely see your point, however you have to realize that as DO's make up only around 4-5% of the total physician population, seeing them having around a 4% representation in a specialty is right about where it should be. ( ie one out of every 20 docs is a DO, and 1 out of every 20 of the specialists you mentioned is a DO....) If there were more then around 4-5% of DO's in a specialty (PM%R ~ 14%), then that would be considered larger proportion of DO's then MD's getting into it percentage wise.

👍

 

[LovelyRita]

I'm going to go ahead and link to my personal experience. You all should know about this.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234565

 

[Stratus2675]

It is NOT that easy. Yes, you have a much better chance at in-house fellowships. Yes, it helps to work your way up, get to know the fellows etc. BUT, cardiology and GI are easily the two most difficult IM fellowships to attain. Typically the top fellowship applicants get into cards and GI while the rest do heme/onc, endo, nephro, rheum, and ID. Cardio and GI applicants typically have research under their belt and are the shining residents. 76 of 2,119 current cardio ACGME fellows are DOs (3.6%). 44 of 1,087 current GI ACGME fellows are DOs (4%). Getting these fellowships are NOT easy for any applicant, let alone DOs.
As for DO fellowships, there are 15 cardio programs, each accepting an avg of 1-2 applicants per year (about 23 slots). There are 4 GI programs, each accepting 1 per year, with the exception of Botsford which takes 2 (5 slots).

So, each year, there's an average of 25 DOs getting into ACGME cardio and 23 getting into AOA cardio. Each year there is an average of 15 DOs getting into ACGME GI and 5 getting into AOA GI. Those are numbers-based facts.

Ok, stupid question....what does AOA and ACGME stand for?

Thanks

 

[OSUdoc08]

Ok, stupid question....what does AOA and ACGME stand for?

Thanks

ACGME = Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education
AOA = American Osteopathic Association

 

[NRAI2001]

Nicedream, I have heard that often, the AOA fellowship spots are not fillling their positions. There is no fact behind this, I am trying find some more solid information on this

Yea i was looking at the AOA site that lists all of the residencies and fellowships and it seems that even many of the fields considered to be competitive have many spots that are going unfilled every year? Are they (the programs) just not reporting the spots filled, so the site doesn't recognize them as filled or is the site accurate and they are really going unfilled?

 

[EMTLizzy]

Yea i was looking at the AOA site that lists all of the residencies and fellowships and it seems that even many of the fields considered to be competitive have many spots that are going unfilled every year? Are they (the programs) just not reporting the spots filled, so the site doesn't recognize them as filled or is the site accurate and they are really going unfilled?

Maybe both? I don't know how it works if someone signs outside of the match. Maybe it isn't reported on the web site?

There are "competitive residencies" and then there are "competitive locations". There are probably hospitals that have a residency or two unfilled simply because it isn't somewhere that people really want to go.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I am aware of residencies going unfilled (particularly in the hospitals I am familiar with in Jersey).

 

[(nicedream)]

Yea i was looking at the AOA site that lists all of the residencies and fellowships and it seems that even many of the fields considered to be competitive have many spots that are going unfilled every year? Are they (the programs) just not reporting the spots filled, so the site doesn't recognize them as filled or is the site accurate and they are really going unfilled?

It's partly lack of up-to-date information on the website, and partly that many slots are unfunded. You have to look at the funded slots to see ones that are actually available. In some cases, there is a program listed on the site, and when you click on it, there are 0 funded slots.

 

[(nicedream)]

.

I definitely see your point, however you have to realize that as DO's make up only around 4-5% of the total physician population, seeing them having around a 4% representation in a specialty is right about where it should be. ( ie one out of every 20 docs is a DO, and 1 out of every 20 of the specialists you mentioned is a DO....) If there were more then around 4-5% of DO's in a specialty (ie. PM&R ~ 14%), then that would be considered larger proportion of DO's then MD's getting into it percentage wise.

That's correct. I don't think being a DO makes a big difference in fellowship application (assuming you did an ACGME residency). The main point I wanted to make was, it's not as easy to get Cardio or GI (for ANY resident, MD or DO) as Malo made it sound.

 

[NRAI2001]

It's partly lack of up-to-date information on the website, and partly that many slots are unfunded. You have to look at the funded slots to see ones that are actually available. In some cases, there is a program listed on the site, and when you click on it, there are 0 funded slots.

So those spots exists, but they won't pay u? So u could potentially do a residency there, but u just wouldn't get paid?

 

[OSUdoc08]

So those spots exists, but they won't pay u? So u could potentially do a residency there, but u just wouldn't get paid?

Yes.

 

[Thousandth]

That's correct. I don't think being a DO makes a big difference in fellowship application (as I said in the fellowships thread).

Wrong... There are serious problems which include certain fellowships in the MD world require you to have completed a ACGME residency to be eligable for there postion. To complicate matters if by chane a DO went to an ACGME residency and wanted to do a DO fellowship they now encounter the same problem but in reverse..ACGME residency but the DO fellowship requires an AOA residency.

If you read the previous linked thread you can see other examples of discrimination based on ignorance/predjudice of DO's.

There are serious problems that need to be fixed by both the AOA and AMA. The AOA needs to have enough residencies (in various locations that are not the midwest) to support the current number of graduates ( there is a 1/3 shortfall numerically, ignoring preferance of carrer also). The AMA world has a stigmatized view of DO's that just isnt valid anymore. Maybe..100 years ago it could be acurate but even then it was BS for the most part. Right now as DO students we go thru EVERY course (with the same standards) plus some that MD students go thru. That alone is enough to negate all the BS reasons as to inequality. It is just a big problem that will take time and effort (on both sides) to eleveate.

 

[(nicedream)]

Wrong... There are serious problems which include certain fellowships in the MD world require you to have completed a ACGME residency to be eligable for there postion. To complicate matters if by chane a DO went to an ACGME residency and wanted to do a DO fellowship they now encounter the same problem but in reverse..ACGME residency but the DO fellowship requires an AOA residency.

If you read the previous linked thread you can see other examples of discrimination based on ignorance/predjudice of DO's.

There are serious problems that need to be fixed by both the AOA and AMA. The AOA needs to have enough residencies (in various locations that are not the midwest) to support the current number of graduates ( there is a 1/3 shortfall numerically, ignoring preferance of carrer also). The AMA world has a stigmatized view of DO's that just isnt valid anymore. Maybe..100 years ago it could be acurate but even then it was BS for the most part. Right now as DO students we go thru EVERY course (with the same standards) plus some that MD students go thru. That alone is enough to negate all the BS reasons as to inequality. It is just a big problem that will take time and effort (on both sides) to eleveate.

Dude, apparently you did not read any of my other posts in this or any other thread and took one sentence out of context. I'm the one that has been saying it's an uphill battle for DOs for the reasons you mention among others. That last statement which you chose to quote was in response to someone saying that the statistics I gave for DOs in ACGME Cardio and GI fellowships specifically indicated representation in those fellowships in line with DOs overall representation in the physician population (if a DO does an ACGME residency, statistics indicate their chances of getting an ACGME fellowship are equal to those of MDs).

 

[(nicedream)]

So those spots exists, but they won't pay u? So u could potentially do a residency there, but u just wouldn't get paid?

No. The only unpaid residencies I'm aware of are a couple AOA derm programs. If a slot is unfunded they are not going to match people into it.

 

[(nicedream)]

I'm going to go ahead and link to my personal experience. You all should know about this.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234565

Sorry to hear about that, but it's not really relevant to this topic for 2 reasons.
1. This thread is about fellowships not residencies
2. Everyone knows ACGME Gen Surg is extremely hard for DOs (177/7689 residents = 2.3%)

 

[Shodddy18]

Sorry to hear about that, but it's not really relevant to this topic for 2 reasons.
1. This thread is about fellowships not residencies
2. Everyone knows ACGME Gen Surg is extremely hard for DOs (177/7689 residents = 2.3%)

Ouch man ... way to be a supportive shoulder to cry on...