Specialties with good lifestyles

[Neville Sarkari]

Hi there. I enjoyed reading this thread. After 5 years in private practice, I think that it is pointless to believe that any specialty really has an advantage over others in "lifestyle." Your lifestyle is what you make it, hopefully guided by your own life priorities. I know internists that work their butts off and others that work 3.5 days a week. I know CT surgeons that work like dogs and others that keep a leisurely pace, spend time with the kids, and go on a lot of vacations.

There are always trade-offs. Sure you might make more money as hospitalist or a radiologist. Then again, some people like the security of not needing referrals and having 3-4,000 people (or more!) say "Dr. X is MY doctor, I wouldn't go anywhere else!" (Beware though, patients can be very fickle too!)

In a proper market we would be compensated for our time spent, the risk we assume, and our level of expertise/skill, but honestly it's pretty skewed.

One thing is for sure, and that is docs don't get nearly enough business training, then we are expected to go out and run a practice (usually dealing with anywhere from $500k to multi-million $$$ of revenue and expenses,) with little experience.

The other thing is politics. Most people coming out of training have no idea of the brutal politics of medicine. Mostly, like all politics, it's about money and power, but somehow we think medicine is immune to that. It's not, it's just like any other business where a lot of $$ are flying around. Sadly, patients get the most hurt. However, lots of docs also get badly wounded, driven out of communities, reputations destroyed, etc....all due to politics, money, power, greed. Because many of us train in academic centers we are shielded from it. (Those centers, of course, have their own politics too but residents are mostly not involved in it.)

Anyway, to get back to the point: Private practice is a rude awakening but we still have the power to mostly make what we want out of our careers. There are always trade-offs between location, competition, salary, work-hours, risk, reward, expenses, etc. But, that's true of any career. You just have to become aware of the factors then tailor your practice to meet your own goals and priorities!

Neville Sarkari, MD
Internist, Private Practice

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[DoctorG]

Good stuff, Dr Sarkari.

 

[medstudent2005]

The ones that have internal malignancies, positive outcome is not really expected so malpractice is ironically not as bad.

It is definitely a great field

this is sad

 

[Fermata]

this is sad

How so?

A large part of rad onc is palliative care.

 

[NinerNiner999]

It is interesting that nobody has mentioned EM as a great "lifestyle field." 36-48 hours per week, no call, no follow-up, and $150/hr to start... I know many EM doctors who, because of their schedules, are able to work a side job, start their own business, or raise large families. Again, as mentioned above though, you have to like what you do...

 

[kungfufishing]

...and that's just to start! why'd you think we picked it?

 

[Finally M3]

It is interesting that nobody has mentioned EM as a great "lifestyle field." 36-48 hours per week, no call, no follow-up, and $150k/hr to start... I know many EM doctors who, because of their schedules, are able to work a side job, start their own business, or raise large families. Again, as mentioned above though, you have to like what you do...

Some people like some semblance of continuity of care with their patients. ER is interesting as hell (and can be very exciting during traumas), but I hated not being able to followup with the patients.

That and all those stupid-a$$ 3AM visits for pimples to be popped.

PS Can I moonlight for the rate you mentioned?

 

[EctopicFetus]

I think ER is realistically more like $125/ hr at about 17-1800 hours per yr. This works out to $212,000 to $225,000 per yr. Of course there are factors that can make that number go up. I know of someone who just finished her ER residency and will make $300,000 this yr, of course thats in OK. The South and OK and Texas are wide open for ER and many other specialties. Living in the NE or Cali is one way to limit your $$$$. Too much competition.

 

[NinerNiner999]

Oops - edit...

 

[EMDrMoe]

You have to do what you love; you will likely be doing it for the rest of your life. Take advantage of medical school to experience things with an open mind. Do what you truly enjoy and what rewards you in the ways you need. Lifestyle is a factor; one of many.

While everyone justifies their own existence, you can only do this to a certain extent. I know residents in medicine, anesthesia, radiology, etc. who do not truly enjoy their work and they are bitter people. Bitter. I'm an orthopaedic resident at a level 1 trauma center (= pummeled) and I almost always enjoy it. It's what I want to do. I still get out. Actually, I got married and have two kids. I still love it. It's all possible.

Life is what you make out of it.

I think your last line sums it up. Period. If you wake up every day and think "what will go wrong today?", chances are you'll find lots of things that will go wrong. When you wake up and think "today is my best day!", guess what - it'll be your best day.

I worked as a clinic/high school ATC for 6 years after grad school. (Acutally, I worked a year in industrial rehab and cried when my alarm clock went off, so I know what it's like on that end too.)

I loved my job. I hated my job. I went back to watch a football game last night and saw some of "my kids". I really miss them and that environment. But, I don't miss the late nights every night, not seeing my husband because we were both ATCs (and our respective schools almost NEVER had home games on the same days!), and working 6 days a week. Although people will say that money doesn't matter or lifestyle doesn't matter, it makes a big difference. Working 6 days a week for $30-35k a year with a very limited amount of knowledge just wasn't what I wanted any more. It's difficult for a student who's never worked (as many of you said) for an extended period of time to get a feel for the ups and downs (or just plain monotony).

So, going to medical school has helped (1) my professional goals - I love medicine, especially EM, and (2) my marriage - we are going through this together and both feel good about what we're doing with our lives (not to mention the fact that we're together more, even on different rotations).

After all that rambling, my point is that you have to choose to be happy. If that means deciding between 2 specialties that really interest you based on the length of residency or future schedule, so be it. If you decide to take the longer road because your work is your first love, so be it. Just make the decision based on what YOU want and what YOU need to lead a happy and fulfilled life.

 

[fatsal]

I think most medical students lack perspective about what it is really like to have a full time job for years. I know that most med students have worked at some point in their lives to supplement money from home or for extra spending cash but this isn't the same. Many can't understand how everything eventually becomes a job. Stormjen hit the mark, look for a specialty that allows you to have a life outside of medicine because in most instances love of your specialty will fade to another day at the office.

This isn't true, I held a full time job. I earned a lot of money $70 per hour for 40 hours per week. I expensed all my meals, equipment (computers, cell phone) and travel (including hotel, plane and transportation). I had lots of free time. i would fly out to vacation spots on weekends and party like you wouldn't believe. I almost always rented limos whenever I arrived in a city. I bought bottles of champagne in clubs for all my friends. I had lots of disposable income and nothing was out of my reach. I didn't shop at GAP or Banana Republic like the regular 20 something. My clothes came from Gucci, Prada, Kenneth Cole and Hugo Boss. I worked out all the time and had a great body. Guess what, it got boring. I didn't feel fullfilled in what I did. I loved the partying but I hated my job during the day. I was so incredibly bored. I hated going to work despite the money I earned. I didn't feel like I impacted anyone. In fact, I hard time describing what I even did. Money and lifestyle is not everything. You have to enjoy what you do. The vacations, partying, cars...all that got old.

I traded all of that away for medicine. Now, I'm out of shape. I can't hang with my previous friends because I don't have the money to hang with them. I can't vacation with them. I never have free time. I had to trade in my Benz for a Hyundai (I'm serious). I know that I will never have it that good again and I'm okay with that. I had the pleasure of enjoying that lifestyle for nearly half a decade. It was great but it wasn't everything. I could have continued to work in that job and escalated my pay but a job isn't just a job after a while. I'm not saying that your job will always be exciting and fresh because I'm not that naive. But deep down, you have to know that your job and place in the world is meaninful in some way despite that crap that you will endure. It's kind of like your parents. Do you love your parents every time you hang out with them? NO, but deep down you care for them and know they are special. Likewise, you will not always love what you do but deep down you can go home and realize that your job impacted someone in some manner.

 

[scootad.]

what a fool! youre gonna regret it.

 

[golgi]

This isn't true, I held a full time job. I earned a lot of money $70 per hour for 40 hours per week. I expensed all my meals, equipment (computers, cell phone) and travel (including hotel, plane and transportation). I had lots of free time. i would fly out to vacation spots on weekends and party like you wouldn't believe. I almost always rented limos whenever I arrived in a city. I bought bottles of champagne in clubs for all my friends. I had lots of disposable income and nothing was out of my reach. I didn't shop at GAP or Banana Republic like the regular 20 something. My clothes came from Gucci, Prada, Kenneth Cole and Hugo Boss. I worked out all the time and had a great body. Guess what, it got boring. I didn't feel fullfilled in what I did. I loved the partying but I hated my job during the day. I was so incredibly bored. I hated going to work despite the money I earned. I didn't feel like I impacted anyone. In fact, I hard time describing what I even did. Money and lifestyle is not everything. You have to enjoy what you do. The vacations, partying, cars...all that got old.

I traded all of that away for medicine. Now, I'm out of shape. I can't hang with my previous friends because I don't have the money to hang with them. I can't vacation with them. I never have free time. I had to trade in my Benz for a Hyundai (I'm serious). I know that I will never have it that good again and I'm okay with that. I had the pleasure of enjoying that lifestyle for nearly half a decade. It was great but it wasn't everything. I could have continued to work in that job and escalated my pay but a job isn't just a job after a while. I'm not saying that your job will always be exciting and fresh because I'm not that naive. But deep down, you have to know that your job and place in the world is meaninful in some way despite that crap that you will endure. It's kind of like your parents. Do you love your parents every time you hang out with them? NO, but deep down you care for them and know they are special. Likewise, you will not always love what you do but deep down you can go home and realize that your job impacted someone in some manner.

Dude - what was your job? Did it have to do anything with drugs or porn? I don't understand - where can you get a job like that with a 4 yr undergrad degree. Pray tell!

 

[Stinger86]

what a fool! youre gonna regret it.

 

[Mirror Form]

This isn't true, I held a full time job. I earned a lot of money $70 per hour for 40 hours per week. I expensed all my meals, equipment (computers, cell phone) and travel (including hotel, plane and transportation). I had lots of free time. i would fly out to vacation spots on weekends and party like you wouldn't believe. I almost always rented limos whenever I arrived in a city. I bought bottles of champagne in clubs for all my friends. I had lots of disposable income and nothing was out of my reach. I didn't shop at GAP or Banana Republic like the regular 20 something. My clothes came from Gucci, Prada, Kenneth Cole and Hugo Boss. I worked out all the time and had a great body. Guess what, it got boring. I didn't feel fullfilled in what I did. I loved the partying but I hated my job during the day. I was so incredibly bored. I hated going to work despite the money I earned. I didn't feel like I impacted anyone. In fact, I hard time describing what I even did. Money and lifestyle is not everything. You have to enjoy what you do. The vacations, partying, cars...all that got old.

I traded all of that away for medicine. Now, I'm out of shape. I can't hang with my previous friends because I don't have the money to hang with them. I can't vacation with them. I never have free time. I had to trade in my Benz for a Hyundai (I'm serious). I know that I will never have it that good again and I'm okay with that. I had the pleasure of enjoying that lifestyle for nearly half a decade. It was great but it wasn't everything. I could have continued to work in that job and escalated my pay but a job isn't just a job after a while. I'm not saying that your job will always be exciting and fresh because I'm not that naive. But deep down, you have to know that your job and place in the world is meaninful in some way despite that crap that you will endure. It's kind of like your parents. Do you love your parents every time you hang out with them? NO, but deep down you care for them and know they are special. Likewise, you will not always love what you do but deep down you can go home and realize that your job impacted someone in some manner.

I'm getting reall sick of reading so many of these black and white stories about how you either love or hate your job. Nobody who's advocating lifestyle specialties is saying you should go into a specialty that you hate soley to get better hours and pay!!!!! If you're really bored by radiology, then don't do it!!! But there are lots of specialities with good lifestyles, so I think most people can find one that they'd like.

Basically, you need to look at the big picture. Tough lifestyles will definitely detract from your family and personal life . . . accept it! They don't make a good family and personal life impossible though. So you need to balance how much more you like your job with how much less you'll be getting from your personal life. For example, if you like Neurosurg "10/10" and like radiology "1/10," then you'll probably be less happy as a radiologist then a neurosurgeon, even if you have a better personal life. However, if you like neurosurg "10/10" but like ENT "9/10," then I think you'd be doing yourself and especially your family (or future family) a huge disservice to not seriously consider going into ENT even though you like neurosurg more.

 

[theD.O.C.]

I traded all of that away for medicine.....Likewise, you will not always love what you do but deep down you can go home and realize that your job impacted someone in some manner.

I agree. Well I'm glad you like medicine, and I hope it brings great meaning to your life. I have also held a full time career as a development engineer for a major tech company. The work was challenging and bleeding edge. The time commitment a bit (but not much) better. Oh and the bennies! The trips to conferences, the signing bonus, and the generous paid time off (3 weeks off a year)! But sadly for me corporate america got a bit dull after a while, very predictable, one day kind of blended in with another. I left and returned (yeah that's right returned you can leave and come back despite what the establishment says) to medicine. I enjoy (sometimes) the challenge and the diversity of clinical medicine. However, it is very tiring. I can definately see myself seriously dropping back my clinical hours after a few years. Which brings me to my point on lifestyle. The decision of lifestyle vs. "dream" is IMHO not tied to your profession but in what you make of it. As an example, I know PM&R docs that work 80 hours a week easy, and I also know surgeons that barely break 50 hours/week. That's not to say certain fields of medicine aren't more conducive to a better lifestyle than others. However, I believe you should do what you have an interest and passion for right now. You can always scale back your commitment as your life changes.

 

[fatsal]

I'm getting reall sick of reading so many of these black and white stories about how you either love or hate your job. Nobody who's advocating lifestyle specialties is saying you should go into a specialty that you hate soley to get better hours and pay!!!!! If you're really bored by radiology, then don't do it!!! But there are lots of specialities with good lifestyles, so I think most people can find one that they'd like.

Basically, you need to look at the big picture. Tough lifestyles will definitely detract from your family and personal life . . . accept it! They don't make a good family and personal life impossible though. So you need to balance how much more you like your job with how much less you'll be getting from your personal life. For example, if you like Neurosurg "10/10" and like radiology "1/10," then you'll probably be less happy as a radiologist then a neurosurgeon, even if you have a better personal life. However, if you like neurosurg "10/10" but like ENT "9/10," then I think you'd be doing yourself and especially your family (or future family) a huge disservice to not seriously consider going into ENT even though you like neurosurg more.

Nobody including me is advocating black and white. But no one should pursue something they totally hate just for the lifestyle and money because it's not everything and that's what people were implying such as Geddy suggesting that you can hate your job 40 hours out of the week vs 80 hours. And let's be honest, med students do just that. Hey, if I didn't work and earn a lot of money prior to starting medical school, I might have sold out by entering a field I hate just for the money and hours. I understand where a lot of med students come from. I was there man. Hey, you work your tail off in undergrad and then you go straight to medical school. We are all human. Med students want some time for the good life too. And being in school for 8 straight years (college and med school) isn't fun any longer. They want to earn a lot of money and live the single life so they could care less really what field they go into. I understand all of that. I'm just saying that at some point, the money and lifestyle becomes stale just like anything else. It's not exciting anymore. Then it's about your job so you have to genuinely enjoy aspects of it. You have to enjoy what you do to some degree. That's all I'm saying.

If you completely hate everything about your field, you won't like it regardless of the pay and hours. And you can choose certain "non-lifestyle" fields like surgery and afford yourself a great lifestyle. The problem is you should be willing to take a hit in regards to pay and location too. I'm a realist. I'm not suggesting that a surgeon can work 40 hours a week in a major metropolitan city and clear 400K immediately after residency. But you guys are fooling yourself if you think every surgeon works 70 hours upon completion of residency. I personally know a few who work in small towns in the midwest that don't have the surgeon lifestyle. They don't make as much as people living in large cities but they have a great lifestyle and earn a comfortable living. And granted there are exceptions to even this idea. Neurosurgeons are going to work their ass regardless of where and how they practice. But hopefully anyone who is going into neurosurgery or trauama isn't seriously considering trying to make a lifestyle out of it. Those are fields where you are just devoted to your career. God bless those people because I could never make that sacrafice.

 

[fatsal]

Dude - what was your job? Did it have to do anything with drugs or porn? I don't understand - where can you get a job like that with a 4 yr undergrad degree. Pray tell!

You can't get a job like that anymore. But you could have back in 1997 when it was called the Dot.com gold rush baby! In all seriousness, it was completely due to the times. I also network well and developed a niche in my field of expertise which meant I could contract at a ridiculous rate. Problem is I was bored at my job and I didn't like what I did. It was incredibly boring. Trust me, you have to enjoy what you do on some level. Money isn't everything. I know I sound like I'm FOS and if my 1997 self read this, he would laugh and think I was FOS. But funny how life works. Yes, even you greedy bastards out there have a noble side that is just waiting to come out.

 

[fatsal]

I agree. Well I'm glad you like medicine, and I hope it brings great meaning to your life. I have also held a full time career as a development engineer for a major tech company. The work was challenging and bleeding edge. The time commitment a bit (but not much) better. Oh and the bennies! The trips to conferences, the signing bonus, and the generous paid time off (3 weeks off a year)! But sadly for me corporate america got a bit dull after a while, very predictable, one day kind of blended in with another. I left and returned (yeah that's right returned you can leave and come back despite what the establishment says) to medicine. I enjoy (sometimes) the challenge and the diversity of clinical medicine. However, it is very tiring. I can definately see myself seriously dropping back my clinical hours after a few years. Which brings me to my point on lifestyle. The decision of lifestyle vs. "dream" is IMHO not tied to your profession but in what you make of it. As an example, I know PM&R docs that work 80 hours a week easy, and I also know surgeons that barely break 50 hours/week. That's not to say certain fields of medicine aren't more conducive to a better lifestyle than others. However, I believe you should do what you have an interest and passion for right now. You can always scale back your commitment as your life changes.

I agree with your 100%. I'm the type that is willing to take a hit in regards to location or pay if I can practice the type of medicine that I want to practice. I don't mind living in a small town. I don't need to live Southern California or the East Coast. And I agree, nearly every type of physician can have the lifestyle they want if they are willing to make the appropriate sacrafices like choosing to practice in lesser populated area or join a large group and share call but accept far less in salary.

 

[docdoc]

When I talked about a "life away from medicine" I wasn't thinking about staying drunk for a couple of years, while riding in limos to the airport for my next trip to get drunk in a foreign country while having it all payed for by my employer. The lifestyle I was speaking of was being able to spend time with my family. Maybe I won't get burned out on watching little league like you did "partying your butt off".

 

[Patholo-gyst]

1) They do have to take some night call, but excepting derm and path, almost everyone does

Path does night call. Who reads the frozen sections for transplants at 3AM? Pathologists. Who takes calls from the lab when somebody's blood smear shows up full of blasts, or gets called when the new ED admit is full of street drugs? Toxicology--Pathologists.

It's true--it is not like surgery or IM. But we do have a night call schedule, and we have to be available.

 

[Leukocyte]

Path does night call. Who reads the frozen sections for transplants at 3AM? Pathologists. Who takes calls from the lab when somebody's blood smear shows up full of blasts, or gets called when the new ED admit is full of street drugs? Toxicology--Pathologists.

It's true--it is not like surgery or IM. But we do have a night call schedule, and we have to be available.

When I used to work as a Medical Technologist in the hospital's Blood Bank, we used to call the Pathology resident on-call whenever there was a transfusion reaction. We had one Pathology resident on-call every night who used to cover the entire Laboratory.

 

[avgjoe]

so to make the 'you can choose lifestyle and location' over salary more concrete, how much would someone working in the Bay Area, LA, NY etc make while working 50 hrs a week?

 

[Sessamoid]

I think ER is realistically more like $125/ hr at about 17-1800 hours per yr. This works out to $212,000 to $225,000 per yr. Of course there are factors that can make that number go up. I know of someone who just finished her ER residency and will make $300,000 this yr, of course thats in OK. The South and OK and Texas are wide open for ER and many other specialties. Living in the NE or Cali is one way to limit your $$$$. Too much competition.

That may be true working for the megacorps, but if you're in a democratic group that shares the profits, you can make similar in money in both SoCal and NorCal. In my group, the average annual take for partners is probably somewhat over that $225K figure (before bonus). The guys working in the more lucrative hospitals are doing way better than that, but those jobs don't open up often since nobody ever wants to quit those jobs.

 

[fuegorama]

That may be true working for the megacorps, but if you're in a democratic group that shares the profits, you can make similar in money in both SoCal and NorCal. In my group, the average annual take for partners is probably somewhat over that $225K figure (before bonus). The guys working in the more lucrative hospitals are doing way better than that, but those jobs don't open up often since nobody ever wants to quit those jobs.

Isn't all that extra bank soaked up by living in SoCal? If you make within 75k of that figure, can't you live in a lot better sit. in Georgia or NC?

Then again, if it was that much better, I guess you'd be living in Georgia or NC.

 

[Sessamoid]

Then again, if it was that much better, I guess you'd be living in Georgia or NC.

The cost of living is definitely higher in SoCal, especially home prices. The bright side is that I've ridden over 100 miles on my bike in the last week when Georgia and the Carolina coastline has been inundated by hurricane force winds and torrential downpours. It all depends on your priorities and what you value in a lifestyle. I don't have nor need air conditioning and I like it that way.

 

[fatsal]

When I talked about a "life away from medicine" I wasn't thinking about staying drunk for a couple of years, while riding in limos to the airport for my next trip to get drunk in a foreign country while having it all payed for by my employer. The lifestyle I was speaking of was being able to spend time with my family. Maybe I won't get burned out on watching little league like you did "partying your butt off".

Why the hell did you even go into medicine then? If you wanted to watch Little League all day then you should have become a pharmacist. This is what I don't get about people like you. You go to medical school and then you b*** about not having enough free time with your family. Why the hell did you go to medical school then? Why didn't you just go into dentistry or podiatry. As a dentist, you can work 4 days a week with no call and earn more than most primary care physicians and some specialists. If a "job is just a job", there are a lot of other jobs out there that would have provided a comparable income level and security with a lot less demands on your free time. Medicine is not a field you enter for "lifestyle". I will be married in two months. If I wanted ample free time with my future family, I wouldn't have gone to medical school. For most of us, a job isn't just a job hence the reason we chose to become physicians.

I think you have been staring at too many Normal Rockwell paintings. Even Little League gets old. Better yet, coach Little League and then tell me how much you love it. I coached it and I can tell you that I would never do it again. When an anal father gets up and yells at you for not playing his kid, you will see that your naive Rockwell like world isn't so appealing. You will be likely every other dad in that you will reserve Sunday afternoons for golf with your friends just so you can get away from your family for a few hours. Wait, I take that back. I guess you are Bob Sagat from Full House and you would rather spend your Sunday afternoon cleaning your house with DJ, and Uncle Jessie.

What was I thinking?

 

[novacek88]

docdoc

You are an MS2. You haven't even done clinicals. Yet, you are already content choosing a field you have no genuine interest in as long as it affords you a great lifestyle? I think it's fair to say that you made an immature and rash decision to pursue medicine. Medicine is a privilege not a chore. I'm a 4th year that has gone through the hell of clinicals and even I can state that my desire to become a physician is genuine despite my dislike of certain aspects of the field. I would never choose a field that I had no interest in simply for the lifestyle. Like others have stated, there are other jobs out there that could have afforded you a better lifestyle.

 

[docdoc]

"I'f I wanted ample time with my family I would not have chosen medicine as my profesion" that is the most stupid statement I have heard. It sounds like your already planning to never be there, how do you think that will work out in the long run? I didn't say I wanted to watch little league all day, but I would like the opportunity to spend time with my children on a regular basis. When you have been married for a while and have children then we'll talk. I hope that when you have a wife and children "ample free time" might become a priority, It says alot about your character if it doesn't. I actually was a little league umpire. If that stress was too much for you to handle maybe you have chosen the wrong profession. On second thought, I think a specialty that keeps you away from your wife and kids is probably the best thing for your family. Does your future wife know that you already anticipate being miserable having to spend time with your kids? It's sad that you think anyone who makes their family a priority is living in a Norman Rockwell fantasy and addicted to full house. In response to novacek 88. I was a practicing veterinarian for 4 years before I came back to medical school so I have a general idea what medicine is about. Medicine can be a field you entire for the lifestyle. Just because you didn't enter medicine for a lifestyle doesn't mean It can't be done or that anyone who makes that their priority won't be good physicians. I chose to become a physician because there are fields where I can work reasonable hours and make a good living. I'm not trying to talk you out of being passionate about medicine, I think it's great that you feal that way. The truth of the matter though, is that the majority of physicians do eventually look at their work as a job. Not all, but most. Hopefully you will never loose your passion for work, as it is the only thing your likely to have with your attitude about family.

 

[fatsal]

"I'f I wanted ample time with my family I would not have chosen medicine as my profesion" that is the most stupid statement I have heard. It sounds like your already planning to never be there, how do you think that will work out in the long run? I didn't say I wanted to watch little league all day, but I would like the opportunity to spend time with my children on a regular basis. When you have been married for a while and have children then we'll talk.

You are an idiot. I'm sorry but there is no nice way to put this. You have already suggested that you don't care about any particular field of medicine as long as it provides a great lifestyle. You were already a veterinarian so why didn't you just continue to be a veterinarian? Are you that greedy that you had to quit veterinary medicine to become a doctor so you can earn a little more money? You think your family is going to be better off because you earning 200K instead of 120K as a vet? If I was married and had children and was worried about going to Little League and spending time with my family, I wouldn't have been stupid enough to go to medical school. I would have just stayed a vet. You are contradicting your very theme. If you only care about family time, then you should have remained as a vet. You are lying to yourself. Both your family and the future patients you would have hurt as a passionless doctor would have benefited.

I'm going to practice medicine but I'm not going into a field like pathology or radiology just because it pays well and affords a great lifestyle. I could have just remained in my previous job if I was only concerned about money. There are other fields of medicine that are interesting that allow one to strike a balance. It's just that I'm not going to join a field that I detest for the money and lifestyle. I'm interested in many areas of primary care that allow one to tailor their lifestyle if he or she should choose. Unlike you, I have enough integrity not to join a field I don't like simply for the income and lifestyle. There is a difference between one accepting harsh realities about their job but still liking most aspects of it and someone who totally sells out for money like yourself. I'm sure you will set a fine example to your kids as a dad who became a physician for the money and nothing else. That's a fine example you are setting Bob!

 

[docdoc]

novacek,
have you talked to physicians in your community to assess what is important to them after having been in practice for several years? When I was in vet practice I was friends with many of the local physicians. Most of the physicians I have talked to are more interested in what they are going to do when the work day is done. It doesn't mean that they are bad physicians or are doing a poor job. I think it reflects the natural way our priorities change as we age and we are responsible for our families as well as ourselves.
No one I have talked to stated that they wanted less time at home and more time at work because they loved it so much. Everyone I talked to said to make lifestyle a priority. What did the physicians you talked to say? Maybe we are talking to a totally different group of physicians or perhaps you really didn't talk to that many people who are actually practicing the profesion you have chosen and it is you who have made an immature and rash decision.

 

[Heeed!]

I guess you are Bob Sagat from Full House and you would rather spend your Sunday afternoon cleaning your house with DJ, and Uncle Jessie.

I can't believe you know the names of the characters on that show.

 

[docdoc]

You are an idiot.


So now your an expert on vet med? You have no idea what I was making or how much I was working. Let me clue you in genius. I was in a mixed animal practice, I averaged over 75 hrs a wk and was on call every other week for the entire week. I made about 70 K a year. Do you think it might be worth it for me and my family to be a pathologist and work 50 hrs a week and make 200 k a year? It's actually easier to be in med school than to be working like I was. No weekend work, home by five every day, no C-sections in the the middle of the night, I could go on but even an idiot like yourself should get the point by now. I realize that 3rd and 4th year will be more demanding but it's just 2 years verses spending the next 30 yrs doing that as a vet. We can't all be as altruistic as yourself and have the "integrity" to choose a field that you like as well as one that pays well. Those are both self serving motivations you goober. You should have included something about your need to help people, it would have been a more convincing point. It's hilarious that I'm being lectured to by the person who chose medicine because they burned out on partying and thinks anyone who makes their home life a priority over work needs to be ridiculed. You are the type of guy I want as my physician!

 

[JennieFinch]

This is getting a little hot in here.

Hey fatsal...do you happen to work at Oakwood Hospital by any chance? I met this one fat resident there and his name was Sal.

 

[novacek88]

novacek,
have you talked to physicians in your community to assess what is important to them after having been in practice for several years? When I was in vet practice I was friends with many of the local physicians. Most of the physicians I have talked to are more interested in what they are going to do when the work day is done. It doesn't mean that they are bad physicians or are doing a poor job. I think it reflects the natural way our priorities change as we age and we are responsible for our families as well as ourselves.
No one I have talked to stated that they wanted less time at home and more time at work because they loved it so much. Everyone I talked to said to make lifestyle a priority. What did the physicians you talked to say? Maybe we are talking to a totally different group of physicians or perhaps you really didn't talk to that many people who are actually practicing the profesion you have chosen and it is you who have made an immature and rash decision.

Better yet, I speak to my parents both of whom are physicians and have been practicing for over 30 years. And no, their career is not just a job to them. They genuinely like what they do. There are parts of their job they don't like but they would never do anything else nor could they see themselves do anything else.

I think you are taking this to an extreme and are missing the point entirely. You are acting as if everyone is asking you to be a surgeon. Most physicians value their time with family. My parents certainly did and it was hard at times because they wish they spent more time with us. However, like fatsal stated, you have to strike a balance. My father still says that he couldn't be a pediatrician regardless of how much it paid and what lifestyle it offerred. He admits that he would be depressed if he had to work with crying babies all day and is grateful to be an ENT because he loves his field.

No one is asking you to trade your family time away. But what we are asking is that you choose a field that you have some genuine interest in. You will benefit your patients in addition to yourself. I do know several people who went into money fields for the wrong reasons and they hate it. They are unhappy regardless of the time they have with their family. They look forward to retiring everyday as opposed to embracing their job. This is not to say that all radiologists, pathologists and anesthesiologists hate their job. I know several who love what they do and it is sincere.

Finally, I think you should examine your situation. You were a veterinarian. You have a wife and children. You were already earning a comfortable living. If your family is your priority and you were not concerned with what you did so long as it paid the bills, then why would you quit that and enter medical school? People who choose medicine as a second career do it because they have a genuine interest in it, not because they can earn more money and spend time with their family. Think about it. You have 4 years of medical school and 4 years of pathology residency (assuming you will match which is a big maybe). That is 8 years you took away from your family. That's a long time to sacrafice if you have no genuine interest in medicine. I don't think it's worth it if you don't genuinely like medicine.

 

[fatsal]

You are an idiot.


So now your an expert on vet med? You have no idea what I was making or how much I was working. Let me clue you in genius. I was in a mixed animal practice, I averaged over 75 hrs a wk and was on call every other week for the entire week. I made about 70 K a year. Do you think it might be worth it for me and my family to be a pathologist and work 50 hrs a week and make 200 k a year? It's actually easier to be in med school than to be working like I was. No weekend work, home by five every day, no C-sections in the the middle of the night, I could go on but even an idiot like yourself should get the point by now. I realize that 3rd and 4th year will be more demanding but it's just 2 years verses spending the next 30 yrs doing that as a vet. We can't all be as altruistic as yourself and have the "integrity" to choose a field that you like as well as one that pays well. Those are both self serving motivations you goober. You should have included something about your need to help people, it would have been a more convincing point. It's hilarious that I'm being lectured to by the person who chose medicine because they burned out on partying and thinks anyone who makes their home life a priority over work needs to be ridiculed. You are the type of guy I want as my physician!

Okay, now it's confirmed that you are a complete idiot. Ever heard of starting your own clinic or moving to another practice? No veterinarian should be forced to working 75 hours a week unless he doesn't know how to look for a job You didn't have to stay put in that practice. I know that veterinarians rarely earn more than 100K but I don't know of any vets working 75 hours per week let alone 40 hours per week. I don't have to be a vet know that; this is just common sense. That's like a dentist saying he is forced to working 6 days a week. You haven't even started clinical rotations let alone residency. And you just threw down at least 120K in a student loan so I'm "certain" your family isn't being stressed by the loans and the time commitment involved with going back to school.

Besides, why did you even become a vet in the first place? You knew it didn't pay well. Did you not do your research? Were you that stupid to go all the way through vet school to find that you aren't earning as much as you perceived. Why didn't you just go to medical school 8 years ago? I wouldn't ask a normal person this question but since you admit you have no real interest in medicine, I fail to see why you didn't go to medical school 8 years ago and get it over with.

Also, I mentioned that I had an interest in primary care *****. Primary care fields don't pay well so I don't know where you got the impression that I wanted to earn a lot of money. I also said that I would be willing to tailor my lifestyle which basically means I'm willing to take even less money than what most primary care docs earn to have a decent lifestyle. And unlike you, i chose medicine for the right reasons. Most people in my position wouldn't exchange a 160K salary on a 30 hour work week for one that will potentiall pay less and offers more working hours. Even an idiot like you should be able to do the math and figure out that I'm not in medicine for the money. I didn't go to medical school because I just got sick of the partying.


The thing is you are hypocrite and a liar (a bad one at that). You say you want to spend more time with your family but the truth is you just wanted to earn more money. You could have found another veterinarian job that offered a better lifestyle. Or you could have went into pharmacy, dentistry or podiatry if having more time with your family was important. Instead, you decided to give up 8 years of your life and go into debt to become a pathologist who works 40 hours per week for 200K. What would be funny is if you didn't match pathology and you had to be a measily primary care doc like myself.


Besides, I think it's funny how you keep spouting about family values etc. as if no one else in here cares about family but you. You sound like one of those militia freaks in Montana who claim they are more patriotic that everyone else because they fire guns in their backyard. Man, I'm so glad I'm not your kid.

 

[docdoc]

Everyone is making the assumption that I dislike medicine. Obviously I don't dislike medicine or I wouldn't have chosen med school as my second career. I'm simply saying that it's not the most important thing in my life. My original post was hoping to make the point that people should make lifestyle an important part of their residency decision. It's not realisitic to think that it won't really matter eventually. Maybe you hadn't read my post about what vet my career as a vet was like. 100k of debt, 70 hr work weeks, and 70 k salary is not a comfortable living. I never stated that I disliked my job but rather that it wasn't giving me enough for what I was putting into it(look at my post on the vet board a couple months ago). I actually have more family time now than when I was working, so there really was no down side to returning to school. I work an occasional night shift at a local animal emergency room which makes enough to pay my tuition so no more student loans. My wife works and makes enough that we live comfortably yet modestly after downsizing. I was a happy when I was practicing vet med and will be happy when I'm a physician. People choose medicine as second career for many reasons including lifestyle, money, and interest depending largely on what they were doing as their primary career. I'm going to try to tone down the sarcasm and hateful speech, it usually doesn't help.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Please note that calling other members names like "idiot" or "*****" violates the SDN Member TOS agreement. There is a way to disgree without resorting to such name calling, whether those names be profane or not. If this behavior continues (one more time) the thread will be closed and the offending party(ies) will be post held for a certain period of time.

 

[docdoc]

Okay, now it's confirmed that you are a complete idiot.

Wow, I should have talked to you about my career change before I made it. You are obviously well versed in veterinary practice management and the logistics of veterinary practice. Maybe we should just call this discussion quits, I'm not going to convince you of anything and your not going to convince me of anything so what's the point of continuing?

 

[fatsal]

Everyone is making the assumption that I dislike medicine. Obviously I don't dislike medicine or I wouldn't have chosen med school as my second career. I'm simply saying that it's not the most important thing in my life. My original post was hoping to make the point that people should make lifestyle an important part of their residency decision. It's not realisitic to think that it won't really matter eventually. Maybe you hadn't read my post about what vet my career as a vet was like. 100k of debt, 70 hr work weeks, and 70 k salary is not a comfortable living. I never stated that I disliked my job but rather that it wasn't giving me enough for what I was putting into it(look at my post on the vet board a couple months ago). I actually have more family time now than when I was working, so there really was no down side to returning to school. I work an occasional night shift at a local animal emergency room which makes enough to pay my tuition so no more student loans. My wife works and makes enough that we live comfortably yet modestly after downsizing. I was a happy when I was practicing vet med and will be happy when I'm a physician. People choose medicine as second career for many reasons including lifestyle, money, and interest depending largely on what they were doing as their primary career. I'm going to try to tone down the sarcasm and hateful speech, it usually doesn't help.

It's a little late to backtrack don't you think. Throughout that entire debate, people were accusing you of not liking medicine and you never denied it. You basically acknowledged our accusation that you are only in it for the money by your citing your family.

No one is ignoring lifestyle. But none of us can calmly admit that we don't care what field of medicine we enter as long as it pays well and affords a great lifestyle because according to you a "job is just a job" after a while.

I'm sorry but that is a disgraceful and disrespectful stance on medicine. It's a priviledge to practice medicine and benefit people. This isn't real estate. You don't make medicine your second career for the sole purpose of earning more money.

 

[docdoc]

your right fatsal, I'm quitting school today, thanks for the brilliant posts, I just needed someone like you to set me straight.

 

[Heeed!]

I'm sorry but that is a disgraceful and disrespectful stance on medicine. It's a priviledge to practice medicine and benefit people. This isn't real estate. You don't make medicine your second career for the sole purpose of earning more money.

Prior to going to medical school I had my dream job. I dropped bombs and spent my days breaking the sound barrier. However, it was my job. My life started when I arrived home each night. People go into medicine for a multitude of reasons. There's no requirement for altruism. Come down off the high horse, my friend, and be realistic. If you think the MAJORITY of doctors are in medicine because of medicine's noble calling, you're kidding yourself. It's great, however, that there are people like you...willing to go into lots of debt and work in the trenches of medicine for relatively little pay. (I'm being serious and not sarcastic). If you want to make medicine your life and not your job, that's your decision. But that's not necessarily what's best for other people. If you look at the general trend of discussions on these boards, increasingly more of us are looking for higher pay, better quality of life, better locations in which to live, etc. We're all different and have different motivations for wanting to practice medicine. Apparently, you don't like it if people go into medicine for only monetary reasons, even though I don't think that's what docdoc is saying. That's why I'm prescribing you Prozac 1qd x30. 5 refills. (That was sarcastic).

 

[Finally M3]

This is getting a little hot in here.

Hey fatsal...do you happen to work at Oakwood Hospital by any chance? I met this one fat resident there and his name was Sal.

Hey, don't make fun of Sal! He's a nice guy!

Hopefully that Sal isn't this Fatsal....this one seems to have an anger management problem

 

[Lonestar]

docdoc,
you are right on about the way to approach a career in medicine nowdays. I am an intern at a tertiary hospital, and on the path to enlightenment. Most of these med studs are too idealistic until they hit third year and some when they hit internship. But 99% of them eventually realize that medicine in the end is a JOB and not a MARRIAGE. Medicine is just not what it used to be. Trust me, I haven't seen one doc in my entire career that has been happy working their ass off. The ones that are working very hard are for the most part miserable and rude. Hell, I get that way when I am post-call and the resident asks me to do his work for him at 2:30 in the afternoon. I understand many jobs have their respective stresses, but medicine for some reason likes to put its practitioners through unusually cruel life. Many docs try to rationalize their decision by saying "well, atleast I have job safety" or "Many people don't get to make such a huge difference in people's lives like we do". RRRRight and that's why you are all for the homeless/drunkerds who constantly take advantage of our healthcare system. Maybe thats why many attendings don't even try to go see some of their "troublemakers" on the floors. Believe it or not, but Medicine is a BUSINESS. And like any business you had better get out what you put into it or its not worth it. Dodoc, i sincerely hope that you make a good choice as far as career goes (Just avoid Medicine, Surgery, OB, Peds, family practice). BTW good fields to consider Rads, Anesthesia, Optho, Derm, Path, Rad onc, Urology. I guess if you don't want to make any money and just have free time then you can go for psych, PM&R. Just my two cents.

 

[funkless]

No veterinarian should be forced to working 75 hours a week unless he doesn't know how to look for a job You didn't have to stay put in that practice. I know that veterinarians rarely earn more than 100K but I don't know of any vets working 75 hours per week let alone 40 hours per week. I don't have to be a vet know that; this is just common sense.

I'm married to a veterinarian. Her first job (in New England) had her working an average of 60 hours per week, for less than $60k a year, and she considered herself very lucky to grab that job. The veterinary market is NOT very open to new vets, esp right now. A primary reason is that more and more veterinarians are adopting an entrepreneurial approach to their practices, as opposed to the old, somewhat provincial "hang up a sign and treat some patients" mentality that used to be the hallmark of human medicine.

Her new job (in the Mid-South) pays about 33% more and has a much easier schedule, but she was only able to get that job after proving herself to be an exemplary clinician. (Bear in mind that vets don't typically have residencies. Their first jobs often serve the same function--show what you can do on these long hours for these low wages.)


Bottom line, your "common sense" failed you. That's not a major surprise, judging from the rest of your posts.

--Funkless

 

[theD.O.C.]

I guess you are Bob Sagat from Full House and you would rather spend your Sunday afternoon cleaning your house with DJ, and Uncle Jessie.

What was I thinking?

Pax my friends. Fatsal if you were really thinking you would have wanted to be on full house spending Fri and Sat night with the Olsen twins! Who's yer TV Daddy?!!

 

[theD.O.C.]

I was a practicing veterinarian for 4 years before I came back to medical school so I have a general idea what medicine is about.

Cool about being a vet! However, I'd just like to impart a bit of wisdom to you before you head into your clinicals: the thermometer generally goes into a vastly different body cavity when working with people (joke).

I'm glad you have your priorities sorted out, but as I'm sure you realise from working in health care this is serious work. Even the 'easiest lifestyle' specialties demand alot of diligence and commitment to stay late even if your hungry, tired, or missing your kid's school play. As an example, what if you're a pathologist and you get slammed with a whole bunch of surgery samples (frozen sections) at 4pm on fri? The surgeons are waiting for an answer about whether to cut more or close up. Someone's life hangs in the balance of your expertise and discipline (I'm not being dramatic this really does happen). You have to like what you do and feel that it's important in order to sacrifice your own needs/wants to do this. That's something you would have a hard time doing IMHO if you just thought of it as a job.

Feel free to call me an a**hole or self-righteous or idealistic or anti-family or anything else. I don't mind, my ex-girlfriends (of which I've had several since I came back to residency) have said much the same. However, unlike them you're gonna be a doctor someday, and to me that means something.

 

[fatsal]

I'm married to a veterinarian. Her first job (in New England) had her working an average of 60 hours per week, for less than $60k a year, and she considered herself very lucky to grab that job. The veterinary market is NOT very open to new vets, esp right now. A primary reason is that more and more veterinarians are adopting an entrepreneurial approach to their practices, as opposed to the old, somewhat provincial "hang up a sign and treat some patients" mentality that used to be the hallmark of human medicine.

Her new job (in the Mid-South) pays about 33% more and has a much easier schedule, but she was only able to get that job after proving herself to be an exemplary clinician. (Bear in mind that vets don't typically have residencies. Their first jobs often serve the same function--show what you can do on these long hours for these low wages.)


Bottom line, your "common sense" failed you. That's not a major surprise, judging from the rest of your posts.

--Funkless

What exactly was I wrong about? Your wife got a job that pays 33% more and has a much easier schedule once she moved, which is what I advised him to do. Also, she practiced in New England which is extremely saturated. It's not unusual to see physicians earning less than a 100K in New England. I don't think she is a great example. I'm originally from Burbank, Ca and I'm friends with two veterinarians out there. Both people got jobs immediately out of school that afford them a regular 40 hour work week. Mind you one of these people graduated from Ross Caribbean vet school too so this person didn't have the most amazing credentials.

And I'm somehow devoid of common sense because I encourage people to pursue a field in medicine that they are genuinely passionate about. I think I was being reasonable about the situation. I wasn't asking anyone to go into neurosurgery and forget their family. At the same time, I don't think people should choose a field like pathology for the money and hours if they hate everything about it. I guess this makes me a bad guy for suggesting this.

Funk isn't the only thing you are missing.

To the others
1. Yes, I'm fat and my name is Sal but I don't work at Oakwood
2. Yes, I would babysit the Olsen twins and yes Uncle Jessie had a hot wife.

 

[Rudy Guliani]

If my thread, which has been beneficial both to myself and apparently to other people as well, gets closed because Fatsal couldn't shut the hell up, I am gonna be hella pissed.

 

[Mirror Form]

Hey, if I didn't work and earn a lot of money prior to starting medical school, I might have sold out by entering a field I hate just for the money and hours. I understand where a lot of med students come from. I was there man. Hey, you work your tail off in undergrad and then you go straight to medical school. We are all human. Med students want some time for the good life too. And being in school for 8 straight years (college and med school) isn't fun any longer. They want to earn a lot of money and live the single life so they could care less really what field they go into. I understand all of that.

This is very true, after watching all of my non premed friends have more fun then me for four years in college, and then continue having much more then me throughout my medical school career, and will have ten time more fun then me during my intern year . . . I'm getting pretty sick of paying my dues. College plus med school plus intern year = 9 years. That enough for me! After that, I want to start living a decent life.

I think a lot of people like me who killed themselves with extremely hard undergrad majors are getting burnt out and want a lifestyle field. Whereas people who just did the typical biology major thing and didn't work that hard (relative to med school) aren't burned out yet and are more likely to consider fields with tough lifestyles.