Specialty hype

[stdmufin27]

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Placing all of the credit on the student is BS in my opinion, students become who they are from their teachers and quality of their education.

You have some serious issues with personal motivation I guess. I suppose you got to this point because your parents and teachers completed all of your undergrad work? Are you from some ritzy place in the world? ARE YOU UNABLE TO REALIZE THAT SOME PEOPLE COME FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE TRASH CAN TO REACH THE TOP!!!!!!! Yes, teachers and schools help the student but it is the intelligence and dedication of a student that makes them successful. I honestly have to say that was the worst friggin comment I've read on SDN!

 

[armorshell]

The question of whether a certain school tends to favor specializing is problematic because there is a shortage of verifiable facts. Ideas like fewer applicants apply, students who prefer 3-year programs also have a preferance for general practice, and some schools have curriculum geared for specializing are largley opinions, as there are no available published information to confirm any of those ideas. If formulating the idea "Some schools with virtually equal quality of students graduate more specialists," I tried my best to use only what are known to be facts, leaving out all information that's close to opinion.
.

These are not opinions, they're established empirical observations. Because there is no published statistical data on the effect of these observations, I relegate it to opinion.

Just for some more fallacious reasoning you ascribe to, you're comparing 1 attribute and extending it to an entire curriculum. You must be well aware that DAT AA isn't by any means the sole predictor of specialization, or even Part 1 boards scores. The last study I saw, on the ADA website, reports the amount of variation on the boards due to DAT score variability was something around 25%. You also conveniently leave GPA out of the picture, and any number of other valuable, objective measurements.

So, what's the agenda here?

[SIZE=3[B]]Published data seems to indicate that, in some cases, a person may have a greater chances of specializing coming from certain school.[/B] Arguments to the contrary seem to be backed up by a string of unverifyable opinions (Not all people want to specialize. People go to the cheapest schools possible. I know somebody super smart but have an aversion to specializing). [/SIZE]

Put up or shut up. Lets see these studies.

That's what the data suggests to me. However, I back up and leave the argument simple, in a way most people would agree with, avoiding trying to fill in the gaps with possible reasons why this observation exists. Some schools with virtually comparable quality students graduate more specialists.

It seems clear to me the way that you've designed your "study" and the loaded language you use, your argument is not objective, isn't simple, most people wouldn't agree with it and inherently hints at why you believe the observation exists. Not only that, but you've taken two pieces of weakly correlated evidence, superimposed an opinion over them, and refused to acknowledge that there are confounding factors, or that the population you're observing has human tendencies.

Please though, feel free to further ignore the posts in this thread and re-repost your opinion, which is what it is, as you have already done several times. Please don't try to engage in any sort of logical or thought provoking discussion, as that might disrupt the meme you're trying to spread.

 

[building]

I find this thread as a whole ridiculous in the fact that, if any of you were to bring any type of scientific basis to this argument, there would be nothing to say.

This ongoing disagreement among dental students can not be settled simply because there are too many variables to consider.

To argue that it is purely a student's decision whether they become a specialist, is completely crap. A school's curriculum, faculty, setting, and peers are very important factors when it comes to how an individual student decides whether they specialize and what they do it in. Hasn't anyone ever decided to look into a field or interest that they never would've thought to do otherwise because a friend or fellow classmate mentioned that it was potentially interesting?

Isn't it also important to consider the fact that perhaps some students attend certain schools that are see to be "specialty" schools because the schools already had the reputation?

 

[UCSFplayboy]

I've already stated what I wanted to state. People can feel free to agree or disagree as they please. I don't necessarily side with either side, and my only intent was to present a viewpoint contrary Armorshell's: the idea that a certain school can be geared towards producing more specialists has merit and should not be dismissed outright. The argument was largely academic, and I, myself, can come up with many more problems with the argument I presented than those already mentioned by Armor, himself. The biggest one being those that already know they want to specialize prefer schools that are also seen as specialty school by others. Regardless of the views expressed, I acknowledge I've already chosen a school and would have to work hard to secure a spot in one of the specialties. I'm just happy that UCSF is one of the top school, has cheap public tuition, and is situated in one of the top cities in the country. There's not much to have to settle for.

FYI, by "published data," I meant the published DAT scores for various schools.

 

[building]

Yeah, I understood what you were goin for UCSFplayboy. I mean, you would expect that people would potentially get defensive or aggressive when discussing the topic, but thats the nature of discussion - people want to assert certain beliefs when no one really cares that much anyway.

 

[Columbia07]

They have high specialty rates because they produce them through their cirriculum! Again, why do you think parents send their kids to public high schools and then to schools like Harvard and Princeton? Because they have a higher chance in succeeding in the future whatever their endeavors. Again, I gave you an example of a med school who admits a lot of applicants from California because they came from good schools, but again you negate the fact because it doesn't fit with your opinion, which by the way you failed to produce any evidence to support it. Placing all of the credit on the student is BS in my opinion, students become who they are from their teachers and quality of their education. Your basing your entire arguement on your own personal opinions which renders it invalid.

1. How can you prove that the school's curriculum is, in fact, the defining element that determines student's board scores?

2. Listen, I went to Columbia. People go to various colleges for many different reasons. Going to Columbia is not the ticket to success. You, as an individual, define your own success--not the institution. Institutions will provide you with the tools to allow you to be successful in life, but they will not make you successful in life.😎

3. I've said it before and I will say it again. People from Penn, Harvard, USC, UoP, Howard, NYU, etc earn 75's and 99's on their NBDE. Explain to me why the kid that is going to Harvard earned the 75 while the kid going to Howard earned the 99?

4. Finally, all dental schools go through a rigorous accreditation process. If a dental school is accredited, it will provide you with the tools to be a successful student. Take for instance USC, we are constantly criticized for our PBL curriculum (supposedly it's inferior), yet men and women match in to top OMFS, PEDO, ORTHO, etc programs every year. They are able to do this because they are motivated individuals that are willing to go out and get something they want. Seriously, I don't give a rat's a*s what you say, Penn is not going to guarantee me a spot in Parkland's 6yr OMFS residency, or will it?

5. I'll come back later after armorshell loosens up your bunghole a bit more.

6. Night.

 

[rkamsterdam]

This is such a podunk thread.

 

[crazy4clana]

You have some serious issues with personal motivation I guess. I suppose you got to this point because your parents and teachers completed all of your undergrad work? Are you from some ritzy place in the world? ARE YOU UNABLE TO REALIZE THAT SOME PEOPLE COME FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE TRASH CAN TO REACH THE TOP!!!!!!! Yes, teachers and schools help the student but it is the intelligence and dedication of a student that makes them successful. I honestly have to say that was the worst friggin comment I've read on SDN!

Like OMG for realz?! Do I need to call you a whaaambulance?
Yes, of course a student's success is dependent upon their motivation and their will to do well but they can't do it with a steady education and teachers. Like I said, everyone is wetting their pants and exclaiming that this doesn't pertain to dental schools. That's fine, I agreed with that. I was taking about the real world, yes there is one outside of dental, you will be screwed over by that kid from Harvard. It's an opinion, and it's true for med schools and specialties, don't deny that.

 

[Columbia07]

Like OMG for realz?! Do I need to call you a whaaambulance?
Yes, of course a student's success is dependent upon their motivation and their will to do well but they can't do it with a steady education and teachers. Like I said, everyone is wetting their pants and exclaiming that this doesn't pertain to dental schools. That's fine, I agreed with that. I was taking about the real world, yes there is one outside of dental, you will be screwed over by that kid from Harvard. It's an opinion, and it's true for med schools and specialties, don't deny that.

1. I think you meant to say "can't do it without a steady education and teachers..." I would suggest getting your bearings in line.

2. Listen to me carefully, you cannot apply what you call "real world situations" to dental school specialty rates and board scores. Going to Penn does not guarantee a high board score just like going to Howard does not guarantee a low board score.

3. Yes the "old boy's club" is alive and ticking, and this will help you in places like NYC, D.C., Boston, Philly, etc, for things like business and finance, but it's not going to do **** when you're vying for a 6yr OMFS residency.

4. You need to understand a very important concept, and it's something that Armor tried to beat into your thick skull already, CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION. Students being admitted to top medical schools are motivated, intelligent students that are destined to do well on the boards regardless of the school. If you're bright, going to a "podunk" medical school is not going to prevent you from achieving a high board score. Do you honestly believe this?

 

[blankguy]

😴

 

[CaliGirl15]

Like OMG for realz?! Do I need to call you a whaaambulance?
Yes, of course a student's success is dependent upon their motivation and their will to do well but they can't do it with a steady education and teachers. Like I said, everyone is wetting their pants and exclaiming that this doesn't pertain to dental schools. That's fine, I agreed with that. I was taking about the real world, yes there is one outside of dental, you will be screwed over by that kid from Harvard. It's an opinion, and it's true for med schools and specialties, don't deny that.

Why would I be screwed by the kid from Harvard in the real world??? I came from what might be considered one of the "podunk" UC schools (meaning not Berkeley, LA, or SD) and I let me tell you I have way more real world experience/smarts then they do. They may have scored tens/hundreds of points higher then me on their SAT's but how does that correlate with how they negotiate life? So what if they can recite every element in the periodic table with correct atomic weight out to the thousandths place? I would ALMOST (I say almost because I don't have an real evidence to back this up *note that I am saying this is strictly my opinion before you jump down my throat) argue that the kid from the "lower tier" school would be more successful in life then say the Harvard kid because he/she probably has a better grip on what the real world is like.
Ok go ahead rip me apart, I am done adding my opinion😀

 

[stdmufin27]

It is definitely obvious that the brilliant go to the brilliant schools. So, it's no friggin surprise that those schools may place a handful more students into specialty programs. Just a handful. Because the brilliant kids who choose a school for tuition, location, or any other reason will also get themselves into a specialty programs because they have just as much ability as the Harvard or UPenn student. I find it utterly ridiculous that there are certain people (crazy4clana) who honestly feel that it is the school that creates the specialist. All those high and mighty schools would be nothing without the brilliant and determined students who attend those schools. If the standards weren't placed that high at those schools the "average" student would attend them and those graduates going on to specialty programs would certainly drop.

By the way crazy4clana, I need the whaaaaaambulance for your dumb-A comment. You have ZERO understanding of having to work hard to get to this point in your life guess or was lucky enough to get handouts from the school and teachers you have come in contact with.

 

[crazy4clana]

1. I think you meant to say "can't do it without a steady education and teachers..." I would suggest getting your bearings in line.

How about you think of a more viable arguement instead of crucifying me over a typo? Oh that's right, you can't. 🙄

Why would I be screwed by the kid from Harvard in the real world??? I came from what might be considered one of the "podunk" UC schools (meaning not Berkeley, LA, or SD) and I let me tell you I have way more real world experience/smarts then they do. They may have scored tens/hundreds of points higher then me on their SAT's but how does that correlate with how they negotiate life? So what if they can recite every element in the periodic table with correct atomic weight out to the thousandths place? I would ALMOST (I say almost because I don't have an real evidence to back this up *note that I am saying this is strictly my opinion before you jump down my throat) argue that the kid from the "lower tier" school would be more successful in life then say the Harvard kid because he/she probably has a better grip on what the real world is like.
Ok go ahead rip me apart, I am done adding my opinion😀

Oh woe is me, I lived a hard knock life in California! I'm sorry but this post is entirely self-promoting, pompous and full of ridiculous assumptions. I don't see how you can prove anything. Just my opinion!

By the way crazy4clana, I need the whaaaaaambulance for your dumb-A comment. You have ZERO understanding of having to work hard to get to this point in your life guess or was lucky enough to get handouts from the school and teachers you have come in contact with.

Ahaha, ouch that zinger hurt. 🙄

Oh do I really have zero understanding of hard work because I am not self-promoting and gave myself all the credit for the way I am today? No, I'm not that stupid nor conceited to not credit my success to others. My parents, the teachers I had, and the schools that I went to all helped me to become who I am today. And btw, I went to all public schools except for college and I never said I came from a "ritzy" family that places importance on names. Like someone said earlier, some schools have better didactic cirriculums and therefore produces more students with higher board scores and better specialty placement. And explain to me why UIC med school has a 75% pass rate on the USMLE step 1 exam and Rosalind Franklin, a "better" school has 95% pass rate?

Again, THIS IS DOES NOT APPLY TO DENTAL SCHOOLS. Maybe if I type in caps people will actually acknowledge that I said it in every post. Jesus, everyone can have an opinion but as soon as I give mine, everything goes to hell huh? Cry me a frigin' river.

 

[armorshell]

How about you think of a more viable arguement instead of crucifying me over a typo? Oh that's right, you can't. 🙄

I guess you missed the other 4 points on his post.

Oh do I really have zero understanding of hard work because I am not self-promoting and gave myself all the credit for the way I am today? No, I'm not that stupid nor conceited to not credit my success to others. My parents, the teachers I had, and the schools that I went to all helped me to become who I am today. And btw, I went to all public schools except for college and I never said I came from a "ritzy" family that places importance on names. Like someone said earlier, some schools have better didactic cirriculums and therefore produces more students with higher board scores and better specialty placement. And explain to me why UIC med school has a 75% pass rate on the USMLE step 1 exam and Rosalind Franklin, a "better" school has 95% pass rate?

As you so frequently say "I don't see how you can prove any of this." This is all technically opinion, and it's not common knowledge that "some schools have better didactic curriculums" or that their curricula result in certain schools having higher pass rates than others. It's well known that medical school ranking criteria have literally nothing to do with the quality of the curriculum, and a lot more to do with research dollars, nebulous peer assessments and faculty : student ratios.

Again, THIS IS DOES NOT APPLY TO DENTAL SCHOOLS. Maybe if I type in caps people will actually acknowledge that I said it in every post. Jesus, everyone can have an opinion but as soon as I give mine, everything goes to hell huh? Cry me a frigin' river.

You're allowed to give any opinion you want, and in the same vein, we're allowed to respond to it in whatever way we want. If you can't handle the heat, change your mind, make your argument better, or GTFO.

 

[armorshell]

Oh woe is me, I lived a hard knock life in California! I'm sorry but this post is entirely self-promoting, pompous and full of ridiculous assumptions. I don't see how you can prove anything. Just my opinion!

I find it incredibly funny that after this thread, you could seriously post something like this. Pot, meet kettle.

 

[CaliGirl15]

Oh woe is me, I lived a hard knock life in California! I'm sorry but this post is entirely self-promoting, pompous and full of ridiculous assumptions. I don't see how you can prove anything. Just my opinion!

First of all I thought I made it clear I had no evidence to support my claim and it was purely my opinion? Your absolutely right I CAN'T prove any of it...but I already said that. Also I never said I lived a hard life...I will be the first to admit I live the good life. My point was that how can you validly say that some from Harvard would screw someone else in the real world?? To use your words "I don't see how you can prove anything." I don't see how by going to a top school makes you successful at handling real world situations, it is my experience (no proven fact) that some of the smartest people I have come across are the least prepared to survive the real world. Please next time you attack me try to attack my points and not my character, I hardly felt that my statement warranted you calling me pompous as I never attacked your character I was just responding to something you had posted.

 

[stdmufin27]

Placing all of the credit on the student is BS in my opinion, students become who they are from their teachers and quality of their education.

Can't remember.......

No, I'm not that stupid nor conceited to not credit my success to others. My parents, the teachers I had, and the schools that I went to all helped me to become who I am today.

what you say!!!!!!

Do I hear the sirens? 😀

 

[Columbia07]

How about you think of a more viable arguement instead of crucifying me over a typo? Oh that's right, you can't. 🙄

1. I'm just trying to help you out bud. You've already dug yourself a pretty big ditch.

2. You completely ignored my other comments...

3. Medical school rankings are not based on the school's curriculum, just like undergrad, everything is about money. Why do you think Columbia College is ranked 9th and Harvard College and Princeton is ranked 2nd/1st respectively? These are two wealthiest schools in country, probably the world and Columbia is not. If you look at endowment and compare that to undergrad ranking, I would bet it would look extremely similar.

4. I would give up on this pissing contest.

 

[crazy4clana]

As you so frequently say "I don't see how you can prove any of this." This is all technically opinion, and it's not common knowledge that "some schools have better didactic curriculums" or that their curricula result in certain schools having higher pass rates than others. It's well known that medical school ranking criteria have literally nothing to do with the quality of the curriculum, and a lot more to do with research dollars, nebulous peer assessments and faculty : student ratios.

Actually schools DO have better didactic cirriculums, why is it so hard for you to admit that? I don't understand your relectance to admit something so trivial. And the two med schools I used as examples aren't even ranked, Rosalind Franklin has better stats, i.e. higher gpa, MCAT scores ect. than UIC and dun dun dun, ironically enough, they get amazing residency placements compared to UIC where you have to be damn near the top of the class to be that competitive. And don't try to say this based on my opinion because this is TRUE. And BTW, med schools are based on research funding which they recieve from the GOVERNMENT and donators who feel that they are the top schools. Why do so many nobel prize winners work at schools like Harvard and University of Chicago? Why don't they choose a school in the middle of nowhere where anyone can get in?

You're allowed to give any opinion you want, and in the same vein, we're allowed to respond to it in whatever way we want. If you can't handle the heat, change your mind, make your argument better, or GTFO.

That's funny coming from someone with an "holier than thou" attitude and demands "Prove ME wrong, I am ALWAYS right!" And your evidence to support it comes from what a link from Wikipedia about causation vs. correlation which is not always true. So I am not going to study for the rest of the semester and see if I can ace all of my finals, let's see if causation doesn't equal correlation! Oh wow, doesn't that sound ridiculous. 🙄 And the two articles that talked about success after choosing schools like Harvard hardly justifies anything considering no one person can measure your success.

1. I'm just trying to help you out bud. You've already dug yourself a pretty big ditch.

2. You completely ignored my other comments...

3. Medical school rankings are not based on the school's curriculum, just like undergrad, everything is about money. Why do you think Columbia College is ranked 9th and Harvard College and Princeton is ranked 2nd/1st respectively? These are two wealthiest schools in country, probably the world and Columbia is not. If you look at endowment and compare that to undergrad ranking, I would bet it would look extremely similar.

4. I would give up on this pissing contest.

Sorry, it just seemed that your arguement was based of off caustation vs. correlation crap which can be proven false in many instances. The arguement kept going around in circles with people exclaiming that their opinion was correct and no one else's mattered which sort of ticked me off.

Please next time you attack me try to attack my points and not my character, I hardly felt that my statement warranted you calling me pompous as I never attacked your character I was just responding to something you had posted.

If you read my post, it said "this post is pompous and self-promoting ect." I never meant to make a personal attack on you which plenty of people already did to me like "I don't want to go a dental school with someone like you! Blahblahblah I can only hear the sound of my own voice blahblahblah." Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to. And I think you misunderstood my example of the "real world", I meant other professions like business, medicine, corporate jobs ect. They WILL pick the person who went to an Ivy League over you just because they really did get a better quality education which makes them a more competitive candidate. I don't see how you can refute that! You are dismissing the quality and high academic rigor of the top schools in the country. When you try to downgrade those schools, you are the one who ends up looking foolish. I only responded to this thread because it boogled my mind that someone REFUSED to believe that some schools have an edge over specialty placement. Is it really that hard to believe? It's common sense!

 

[Columbia07]

1. I'm not arguing, I'm just asking questions to clarify the nonsense you've been writing for the past two days.

2. Do you or have you ever attended an Ivy League college?

3. If your opinion didn't matter I wouldn't be discussing this issue with you, correct?

 

[crazy4clana]

1. I'm not arguing, I'm just asking questions to clarify the nonsense you've been writing for the past two days.

It's nonsense because you don't agree with it? It's TRUE for everything else other than dental school! I already gave my examples about three times yet of course they are ignored or someone twists my words around.

2. Do you or have you ever attended an Ivy League college?

No, far from it.

3. If your opinion didn't matter I wouldn't be discussing this issue with you, correct?

I only care because I've dealt with this heavily in the past with my family members going to med school and when picking a college.

 

[CaliGirl15]

If you read my post, it said "this post is pompous and self-promoting ect." I never meant to make a personal attack on you which plenty of people already did to me like "I don't want to go a dental school with someone like you! Blahblahblah I can only hear the sound of my own voice blahblahblah." Sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to. And I think you misunderstood my example of the "real world", I meant other professions like business, medicine, corporate jobs ect. They WILL pick the person who went to an Ivy League over you just because they really did get a better quality education which makes them a more competitive candidate. I don't see how you can refute that! You are dismissing the quality and high academic rigor of the top schools in the country. When you try to downgrade those schools, you are the one who ends up looking foolish. I only responded to this thread because it boogled my mind that someone REFUSED to believe that some schools have an edge over specialty placement. Is it really that hard to believe? It's common sense!

Sorry, my mistake I misread what you posted. And I am by no means downgrading high academic rigor I have had plenty of friends that have gone to Harvard, Yale, and Stanford and I do see the quality of education they have received. I guess I am always just a firm believer in the student makes their education what they want...however, I do believe schools like Harvard give their students more access to education opportunities.

 

[Columbia07]

No, far from it.

1. Then why do you seem to think you are the authoritative figure on an Ivy League education?

2. Also, you really need to avoid using rankings to validate your points. Rankings are extremely subjective and usually involved lots of endowment and donor money.

 

[absolutely]

I think if dental school were free then alot of people would prefer to go to one of these "big name" schools that are more expensive. Not everybody. But I think a lot. maybe somebody should poll it.

 

[crazy4clana]

^ True, it would be a whole different ball game, but of course people wouldn't admit to that.

Like I said, I have a lot of family members who went through this process so I know quite a bit about it, thanks. And when did I say I was an authoritative figure on the subject? I was just trying to get my point across that going to high caliber schools that are known for their high academic rigor will give you an advantage! It's common sense.

And when I gave my examples I already explained that they weren't even ranked. And ranking is based off of lots of factors including retention rate, entering gpas, standardized test scores, peer evaluations ect. The schools that object to these lists are the ones that don't make the cut. And the rankings are important, for college at least a lot of students use it to decide where to go. And yes, they do recieve a lot of donations from the government and other benefactors because they are the best and deserve it.

Sorry, my mistake I misread what you posted. And I am by no means downgrading high academic rigor I have had plenty of friends that have gone to Harvard, Yale, and Stanford and I do see the quality of education they have received. I guess I am always just a firm believer in the student makes their education what they want...however, I do believe schools like Harvard give their students more access to education opportunities.

See that's exactly what I'm saying (btw, I actually wasn't refering to you when I was talking about Ivy League education). The only thing I meant was that you would have a competitive edge when competing with someone who went to a less I guess "prestigious" school.

 

[armorshell]

Like I said, I have a lot of family members who went through this process so I know quite a bit about it, thanks. And when did I say I was an authoritative figure on the subject? I was just trying to get my point across that going to high caliber schools that are known for their high academic rigor will give you an advantage! It's common sense.

Apparently it's not common sense. We're not comparing the average student of a university here either. If you have two identical students, we'll say med here, both with identical boards scores, one having gone to State Med U and the other one University of the Prestigious, what's the difference? Their performance on a nationally standardized exam was identical. Perhaps their may be some kind of good 'ol boy's club effect at play here, but I'm not willing to believe people as intelligent as program directors can succumb to something like that unlilaterally.

And when I gave my examples I already explained that they weren't even ranked. And ranking is based off of lots of factors including retention rate, entering gpas, standardized test scores, peer evaluations ect. The schools that object to these lists are the ones that don't make the cut. And the rankings are important, for college at least a lot of students use it to decide where to go. And yes, they do recieve a lot of donations from the government and other benefactors because they are the best and deserve it.

How can you not see that these are painfully confounding factors when you consider post-graduate success? Also that things like peer evaluations and entering gpa/test scores are co-dependent, and that research dollars literally have no necessary impact on the quality of the education the students receive? This is statistics 101 and you're actually choosing to ignore it. Mind boggling.

 

[crazy4clana]

And why do you choose to pick apart minor segways that don't even pertain to the arguement at hand? All of the examples I gave are from schools that are NOT ranked, I believe you are the one that through rankings into the mix. My POINT was that the money goes to the top schools, why do you think that government does that huh? For instance, more money=better clinics/equipment/technology ect. Does that not help students learn better. I hear a lot of complaints about dental schools that are old, outdated, ect. Wouldn't you think that students would perform better with better material to work with?

And enough with the "statistics 101", most of the things you use as "statistics" and be as dismissive as you are to my opinions and the facts I present.

 

[armorshell]

Actually schools DO have better didactic cirriculums, why is it so hard for you to admit that? I don't understand your relectance to admit something so trivial. And the two med schools I used as examples aren't even ranked, Rosalind Franklin has better stats, i.e. higher gpa, MCAT scores ect. than UIC and dun dun dun, ironically enough, they get amazing residency placements compared to UIC where you have to be damn near the top of the class to be that competitive. And don't try to say this based on my opinion because this is TRUE. And BTW, med schools are based on research funding which they recieve from the GOVERNMENT and donators who feel that they are the top schools. Why do so many nobel prize winners work at schools like Harvard and University of Chicago? Why don't they choose a school in the middle of nowhere where anyone can get in?

So you're telling me that a school that accepts students who are better academically, get higher boards scores and better residency placements?!? Are you kidding me right now? Because that sounds like the most painfully obvious thing anyone has ever told me. How can you, saying what you just said, not see the connection?

That's funny coming from someone with an "holier than thou" attitude and demands "Prove ME wrong, I am ALWAYS right!" And your evidence to support it comes from what a link from Wikipedia about causation vs. correlation which is not always true. So I am not going to study for the rest of the semester and see if I can ace all of my finals, let's see if causation doesn't equal correlation! Oh wow, doesn't that sound ridiculous. 🙄 And the two articles that talked about success after choosing schools like Harvard hardly justifies anything considering no one person can measure your success.

I personally don't remember saying that, however I do remember claiming the exact opposite. Feel free to deny whatever statistical or scientific truths you want though, just don't expect too many to take you seriously.

Your example makes absolutely no sense, causation absolutely implies correlation.

I can't even understand your last comment, and I'm guessing you didn't even read the introductions to the papers I posted.

 

[armorshell]

And why do you choose to pick apart minor segways that don't even pertain to the arguement at hand? All of the examples I gave are from schools that are NOT ranked, I believe you are the one that through rankings into the mix. My POINT was that the money goes to the top schools, why do you think that government does that huh? For instance, more money=better clinics/equipment/technology ect. Does that not help students learn better. I hear a lot of complaints about dental schools that are old, outdated, ect. Wouldn't you think that students would perform better with better material to work with?

And enough with the "statistics 101", most of the things you use as "statistics" and be as dismissive as you are to my opinions and the facts I present.

Ah of course, when you rank a school the whole argument falls apart for some unknown reason. Makes perfect sense.

So your argument is that the government ignores schools who need the most help, and funnels it to the schools who are already the best? Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[armorshell]

And enough with the "statistics 101", most of the things you use as "statistics" and be as dismissive as you are to my opinions and the facts I present.

I'll continue to remind you of your errors in statistical application until:
A. You learn more about statistics. Rote denial of principles of statistics and research don't sit too well with me for some odd reason.
B. You grow tired of arguing with me and leave. Check the post count, I'm in this for the long haul
C. The thread gets locked.
D. All of the above

 

[crazy4clana]

So you're telling me that a school that accepts students who are better academically, get higher boards scores and better residency placements?!? Are you kidding me right now? Because that sounds like the most painfully obvious thing anyone has ever told me. How can you, saying what you just said, not see the connection?

Did you or did not just agree with me? I honestly don't know what you are saying half the time, oh yay! Time to laugh in my face again right? 😴

Actually, they both have the same stats now (checked and they changed from last year). So yeah, the arguement fits. Rosalind Franklin is private, more elite, lots of people from CA and look at that better residency placement! Shocker! All that money they get goes to brand new anatomy labs and new cadavers. That doesn't benefit the students right?

And actually I took Psych Research and Stats. 🙄

Fine, I'll leave. Agree to disagree cause I have homework to do. 😛

 

[armorshell]

Did you or did not just agree with me? I honestly don't know what you are saying half the time, oh yay! Time to laugh in my face again right? 😴

Actually, they both have the same stats now (checked and they changed from last year). So yeah, the arguement fits. Rosalind Franklin is private, more elite, lots of people from CA and look at that better residency placement! Shocker! All that money they get goes to brand new anatomy labs and new cadavers. That doesn't benefit the students right?

And actually I took Psych Research and Stats. 🙄

Fine, I'll leave. Agree to disagree cause I have homework to do. 😛

I didn't agree with you, you agreed with me, and don't seem to understand exactly what that means.

If the stats changed last year, it seems like the effects on residency placement won't be noticed until the class in question graduates. Additionally, I'm going to assume you've never had a dissection-based anatomy course before.

Well, I guess I'll just have to defer to your vast experience in a single undergrad course in psych statistics.

Anyway, good luck with your homework. I hope your professors did a good job writing it, since apparently that's all that matters right?

 

[CookieDough]

I am thoroughly enthused! By some more than others. Bottom line is, or should be, that an individual's success is MOST LIKELY influenced by their own motives for pursuing dentistry. True, factors that may influence your class rank come from your surroundings... but can't we agree that anyone whose taken the time to prepare for dental school is already motivated and has the potential to do just as well in the real world? I personally would not walk around as a patient boasting my dentist's credentials here and there. There's more that goes into being a skilled dentist besides being good at what you do... someone can be an absolutely brilliant dentist, but if they are incapable of carrying on a sensible conversation with their patients, how are they going to build their practice? You guys are fiestyyyy haha

 

[TrogdeLorean]

Students being admitted to top medical schools are motivated, intelligent students that are destined to do well on the boards regardless of the school.

It is definitely obvious that the brilliant go to the brilliant schools. So, it's no friggin surprise that those schools may place a handful more students into specialty programs.

I think that most people reading this thread missed the point of the original poster. He is aware that in some cases, schools with a reputation of sending a higher percentage of graduates to specialty programs got that reputation merely because the students that they admit are smarter or at least more academically driven in the first place. However, as the OP pointed out, certain specific schools can be compared, and one school may have that reputation while the other does not even though they both accept students of a similar caliber (as measured by their AA scores).

But this still does not necessarily imply that any particular school provides a better education than the others. As was already (sort of) pointed out, "specialty schools" probably have the reputation of sending more graduates on to specialize simply because more students from those schools choose to specialize and choose to apply to specialty programs.

This makes sense because students who, as undergrads, are planning to eventually specialize will certainly be drawn to the schools that are considered to be better for preparing a dentist to specialize. Therefore, you would expect more students who are going to apply to specialty programs to be at the specialty schools than at other schools.

They WILL pick the person who went to an Ivy League over you just because they really did get a better quality education which makes them a more competitive candidate...

..Is it really that hard to believe? It's common sense!

If two candidates for a specialty residency, one from UPenn and one from Howard, have the exact same board scores, then the decision must be made based on their grades. If the grades are the same, you are right, the student from UPenn will be chosen, but that is not because he received a higher quality education. It's because (as far as I know) grades are based on a curve, and since UPenn accepts more competitive students than Howard, the residency candidate from UPenn must have been competing against "smarter" people to get that equal grade, so therefore the grade has more value.

It's no wonder you won't change your mind; you believe that your opinion is common sense. Would it toally shatter your perception of reality if your opinion was untrue?

 

[phraud]

Some people say that cucumbers taste better pickled.

 

[armorshell]

Some people say that cucumbers taste better pickled.

It's common sense that pickled carrots are better.

 

[CaliGirl15]

Personally I don't like anything pickled and I'm Asian...except the ginger that comes alongside sushi.
I think I'm beginning to forget the intend of the original post now, why am I talking about pickled food??? I love SDN

 

[litldime]

i just find it interesting that its pre-dents arguing with dental students. i would think the dental students would have more knowledge on this topic since they've had more first hand accounts, lectures, meetings, actually speak to d-school professors and others who really know what's going on etc. I also find it interesting that pre-dents have such preconceived notions about how things work without having spent a day as a dental student. I guess our minds can only really change or we get the whole picture when we actually start school.

 

[rkamsterdam]

Personally I don't like anything pickled and I'm Asian...except the ginger that comes alongside sushi.
I think I'm beginning to forget the intend of the original post now, why am I talking about pickled food??? I love SDN

asian people rock!

 

[SHC1984]

Hell yeah! WE sure do! 😀😉

asian people rock!

 

[CaliGirl15]

asian people rock!

Hell yeah! WE sure do! 😀😉

Of course we do...everyone knows that we basically run the world! Plus we make the best food.

 

[crazy4clana]

i just find it interesting that its pre-dents arguing with dental students. i would think the dental students would have more knowledge on this topic since they've had more first hand accounts, lectures, meetings, actually speak to d-school professors and others who really know what's going on etc. I also find it interesting that pre-dents have such preconceived notions about how things work without having spent a day as a dental student. I guess our minds can only really change or we get the whole picture when we actually start school.

What does being in dental school have to do with it? It's not like professors are going to say that their school is not as competitive against another school anyway. It doesn't matter what your experience is like, I've spoken to admission counselors about this as well as advisors, also have family members and friends in med school going through it. Age doesn't always equal wisdom.

 

[UCSF2012]

Of course we do...everyone knows that we basically run the world! Plus we make the best food.

I always thought you were white.

 

[armorshell]

What does being in dental school have to do with it? It's not like professors are going to say that their school is not as competitive against another school anyway. It doesn't matter what your experience is like, I've spoken to admission counselors about this as well as advisors, also have family members and friends in med school going through it. Age doesn't always equal wisdom.

Wait, so you have family members, who are med students, that you listen to about med school, but dental students aren't as good for some reason when you're talking about dental school?

 

[crazy4clana]

They are in their last years and applying for residencies. Didn't you just get accepted? I'm sure you are just an entire encyclopedia of knowledge about this, with your infinate amount on knowledge of stats. 🙄

 

[CaliGirl15]

I always thought you were white.

Technically speaking I am only half Asian and half white...so you are half correct. I think of it as the best of both worlds

 

[UCSF2012]

Technically speaking I am only half Asian and half white...so you are half correct. I think of it as the best of both worlds

Then that means you only half-way run the world. 😎

 

[crazy4clana]

Technically speaking I am only half Asian and half white...so you are half correct. I think of it as the best of both worlds

You must be beautiful! Do you know Kristin Kreuk from Smallville? I love her! 😍

 

[SHC1984]

My mother is half russian (white) and half asian. Mixed people are beautiful!

You must be beautiful! Do you know Kristin Kreuk from Smallville? I love her! 😍

 

[CaliGirl15]

Then that means you only half-way run the world. 😎

I am ok with that...if I had to run the whole world I wouldn't have enough time for dental school too. This way I can do both things ya see?