squamous vs basal cell carcinoma

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sleeping beauty

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this question may be stupid for some of you guys (i am 1st year).

is there any markers (or any other ways other than morphology) to differentiate these two?

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Ber-EP4 stains BCCs and (i think) is negative in SCCs.
 
there is some dermpath guy who knows this. the berep4 thing sounds right.

the next question is who really cares, BCCs often show sqamous differentiation and SCC often show at least some myxoid crap and basaloid morph, so obviously there is a big grayzone.

treatment for both is the same. etiology of both is essentially the same.
 
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BigD and LADoc. thanks.

LAdoc, can i send you a case for consultation? i am not sure it is bcc, scc, or tcc. it is from a large ovarian cyst. i do not know how to post pics here. thanks.
 
BigD and LADoc. thanks.

LAdoc, can i send you a case for consultation? i am not sure it is bcc or scc. it is from a large ovarian cyst. i do not know how to post pics here. thanks.

Ovarian cyst?? Hold it, wth. Yeah post pics, you have piqued my interest now. this is arising in a teratoma I assume? I would guess SCC then.
 
Interesting sounding case. Tell us the resolution.
 
Posting pics is pretty easy, there are websites that host free images like photobucket.com , you can just upload your images that you take. Then it tells you how to post them as a link.

I dunno, if it's in an ovary I think the first question shouldn't be whether it's SCC or BCC, but whether it's some other type of CA, especially if there is no teratoma. If a carcinoma is poorly differentiated enough to not be able to tell BCC or SCC there is the potential it's just an endometrioid CA or something like that. Carcinomas arise from teratomas but it isn't that common.
 
history: 60 yo F w/ h/o abd pain for 2 days presented in ER, where she was found to have ovarian mass. hysterectomy in caribeans 10 yrs ago for unknown (but conflicting: non-tumor vs tumor) reason.
path: 17x12x10cm cyst w/ smooth external surface and slightly rough inner surface. cyst filled with yellow-green fluid, not multilocuted. wall thickness about 0.3 cm. micro: cytic wall lined with tumor cells (see pics in the linking). tumor nests found within cystc wall. tubes, R ovary, omentum, diaphragm, peritoniem, colic gutter, 12 periaortic/pelvic/common illiac nodes all negative for metastasis.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A5-10x.jpg
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A5-20x.jpg
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A5-40x.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A4-10x.jpg
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A4-40x.jpg
 
history: 60 yo F w/ h/o abd pain for 2 days presented in ER, where she was found to have ovarian mass. hysterectomy in caribeans 10 yrs ago for unknown (but conflicting: non-tumor vs tumor) reason.
path: 17x12x10cm cyst w/ smooth external surface and slightly rough inner surface. cyst filled with yellow-green fluid, not multilocuted. wall thickness about 0.3 cm. micro: cytic wall lined with tumor cells (see pics in the linking). tumor nests found within cystc wall. tubes, R ovary, omentum, diaphragm, peritoniem, colic gutter, 12 periaortic/pelvic/common illiac nodes all negative for metastasis.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A5-10x.jpg
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A5-20x.jpg
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A5-40x.jpg

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A4-10x.jpg
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee207/sleepingbeautySDN/A4-40x.jpg

I'm in a hurry, so I just looked briefly, but my first impression was a basaloid squam.
 
i am collecting dx.
1, S(quamous) CC, basaloid SCC
2, B(asal) CC
3, T(ransitional)CC
4, ?
5, ?

anyone else?
 
Have you done any special stains at this point? Also, does the whole tumor look like that? Any areas of more conventional teratoma?
 
Up close it's kind of neuroendocrine, kind of nonspecific. Even synovial sarcoma can look like that. I'd want to see more but based on that I'd do a few immunostains. The cystic part is a little weird. Does it invade irregularly anywhere or does it just do that inverting thing?
 
no other components. all areas of the cyst are the same. what special staining do you want to do? this is an old case. but the dx "bothers" me all the time.
 
basaloid carcinoma of the ovary
 
Up close it's kind of neuroendocrine, kind of nonspecific. Even synovial sarcoma can look like that. I'd want to see more but based on that I'd do a few immunostains. The cystic part is a little weird. Does it invade irregularly anywhere or does it just do that inverting thing?

it invades cystic wall regularly, slide A5.

it also does that inverting thing, slide A4.
 
1. malignant transformation? to SCC? rare. tumor cells are basaloid. malignant transformation to bcc? even rarer.
2. there are several reported cases: cervical Ca in situ meta to ovary. (contradictary patient history)

evidence argues against 1 and 2:
a, tumor lining of a gigantic cyst everywhere (instead of focal nests). b, regular invasion (if we consider tumor nests within wall invasion) and without distant meta;

3. transitional cells can do that lining/ invert thing. can it be tcc? cells do not like transitional cells too much. (brenner, borderline tcc, malignant tcc. transtional cell tumors are not too uncommon).

i purely guess.

i will post more pics.
 
I dunno, if it's in an ovary I think the first question shouldn't be whether it's SCC or BCC, but whether it's some other type of CA, especially if there is no teratoma. If a carcinoma is poorly differentiated enough to not be able to tell BCC or SCC there is the potential it's just an endometrioid CA or something like that. Carcinomas arise from teratomas but it isn't that common.

Just saw this thread...looks like a pretty cool case! My first instinct was along the line of yaah's endometrioid thinking because I've been fooled by a rushed diagnosis of transitional cell carcinoma before. Upon first glance, my differential was a poorly differentiated endometrioid, a transitional cell, borderline vs. malignant brenner tumor, and a basaloid squamous cell CA (metastatic from a known primary or arising in the context of a mature teratoma).

I haven't read all the posts but it seems like a lot of us are on the same page. I just had a few questions/and thoughts will I'll project out loud:

1) Are there ANY areas of gland formation...especially if there was a focus of endometrioid type adenocarcinoma glands anywhere? I've been fooled by nests of solid endometrioid tumor that looks transitional in morphology but in both cases, that was due to necrosis, which is not seen here. That being said, based on looking at the histology, I wouldn't expect it. The wall of the cyst and nests of tumor look pretty clean.

2) Not really favoring a met at this point...I get the feeling that this patient has a dominant ovarian cystic mass. For instance, if the patient had a known cervical primary, you could throw on a p16 immunostain.

3) Are there any broad based papillae/fronds lined by transitional-type stratified epithelium along the inner cyst wall? Or is the one pic of the smooth cyst wall fairly representative?

4) Any teratomatous component to the ovary?

5) There are widely spaced somewhat complex looking nests of transitional type cells within stroma...are there confluent nests of transitional type cells?

6) Any Brenner tumor areas within the ovary?

7) Impox-I don't think impox will be terribly helpful. You could maybe try a p63 maybe to test the basaloid SCC hypothesis. TCCs of the ovary, unlike TCCs of the bladder/renal collecting system, is less likely to be CK20 postive. A positive CK7 doesn't help you. And I'm not a big fan of the uroplakin stain.

8) Completely random thought...granulosa cell tumors can exhibit a wide array of morphologies. But I'm not sure if they can have a transitional type look. And plus, the nuclei don't look right for GCT.

Good case...not an easy one...I'll mull over it and if I can come up with anything, I'll post again.
 
1. i revisited all 18 sections. the posted pics are very representative.
2. as previously suggested, I think these so-called nests within cystic walls are not invasions (as WE thought). they are actually caused by tangential cutting. you can see the lumen at right lower corner of slide A5 10X. that suggests trabecular lining structure. as i said, this is an old case. the specimen was gone. however these are no grossly appreciated papillary structures.
3. therefore other than the CLEAN tumor lining, there are no invasions or any other components.

where are these attendings? yaah, what's your dx?
 
1. i revisited all 18 sections. the posted pics are very representative.
2. as previously suggested, I think these so-called nests within cystic walls are not invasions (as WE thought). they are actually caused by tangential cutting. you can see the lumen at right lower corner of slide A5 10X. that suggests trabecular lining structure. as i said, this is an old case. the specimen was gone. however these are no grossly appreciated papillary structures.
3. therefore other than the CLEAN tumor lining, there are no invasions or any other components.
I think those nests can't be solely contributed to tangential sectioning but whatever the verdict is, it isn't invasion. Given that those pics are representative, I can't get to a transitional cell carcinoma. My feeling is that this is a bona-fide transitional lesion rather than a basaloid squamous lesion. That leaves two possibilities...cystic Brenner vs. borderline Brenner. I'm favoring the latter...I'd like to see a more complex architecture for a borderline Brenner but nuclear atypia can bump it up from a simple Brenner to a borderline. And there certainly is nuclear atypia. Hence, I'm going with the latter.
 
i go transitional cell tumor, debating benign, borderline, or malignant. i am not convinced it is scc.
 
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