stable ST depression?

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saintsfan180

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I had a lady come in last night who had an unwitnessed fall at the NH. I worked her up for cardiac causes among other things. Her EKG showed some lateral ST depression, but the old one had the same depressions noted. Troponin ended up being 0.08 (prior of 0.05 on last admission and she had CHF so it was likely leak). I admitted her anyway but I have never seen "stable" ST depression that was basically unchanged from the prior. It may have been slightly more pronounced in one lead (2mm as opposed to 1mm) but grossly unchanged - lead placement?. She wasn't having any symptoms either. Is it considered significant if you note depression but it's there on the prior? She also had a RBBB noted on prior too, and I know you can see some depression across the precordial leads with that. What do you guys think?
 
You're not seeing the forest because you're looking at the individual trees. The key is making the determination as to whether this was a:

1-A trip and fall in coherent person with an intact memory who's able to answer pertinent negatives such as, "Do you have chest pain, shortness of breath?" or "Did you faint, get dizzy, lose consciousness or do you specifically remember a mechanical trip and fall?" versus,

2-A potential syncopal event in someone demented with poor memory and unable to say, "Guy, I just tripped on my dentures. My heart's fine. I didn't faint or hit my head and forget. Leave me alone, and get me back on the wagon so I can watch Judge Judy, and get to free-tapioca-pudding bingo-night."

If you can make this determination, all of your sub-threshold troponin and non-specific EKG questions become irrelevant. Ask them, "Tell me exactly what happened and why." If they can, it's probably #1 which is a minor trauma work up. If they can't, it's probably #2, which is a "syncope, can't rule out a long list of badness no matter how many tests you do" work up.
 
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Haha this lady was pretty out of it. Apparently that was her baseline for the most part, but she didn't have a clue what happened (or for that matter, than any event had even happened) so I kinda had to work her up for it.
 
Haha this lady was pretty out of it. Apparently that was her baseline for the most part, but she didn't have a clue what happened (or for that matter, than any event had even happened) so I kinda had to work her up for it.
Right. So a single normal troponin rules out nothing, since you have know idea when symptoms started, if there are/were any. Also, even a perfectly normal EKG rules out nothing, since arrhythmias can be paroxysmal, which makes splitting hairs of 0.5 mm of non-specific EKG abnormalities irrelevant.

Demented found on floor could be,

1-Flipped into Vtach or sick-sinus 15 bpm for 20 seconds, and is going to again 5 min post discharge, or could be,

2-Absolutely nothing.

Pick 2, convince yourself your "reassuring" tests are reassuring and end up wrong = presenting M&M next month.

Pick 1, assume worst, consult hospitalist to admit and end up wrong = no harm, no foul.
 
While a pragmatic approach, pursuing understanding as its own end is also reasonable. Structural heart disease and CNS disease are both quoted as causes of ST depression. They would presumably be "stable". Home medications would also be a reasonable possibility...
 
I wouldn't get lost on a single EKG that does not demonstrate acute ischemic morphologic pattern, especially when the previous had similar morphology.

What you're describing sounds to be an easy syncope admission. First, forget all the rules and just listen to your clinical gestalt. Are you really going to send an elderly NH patient home who woke up on the floor, is a poor historian, is certain to have several comorbidities that probably include CAD and can't remember anything about what happened? Of course not. What about one with a troponinemia and a technically "abnormal EKG"? Ditto. Did she fall? Did she seize? Did she have an arrhythmia? Is she having a silent MI? Who knows, and it sounds like she certainly can't give you a great history. It smells like syncope and that's the direction I'd take.

I don't have all your history but she probably meets San Fran Syncope rules quite easily and you could fudge the "abnormal EKG criteria" as potential ischemic morphology. Especially in light of a troponinemia. Even if she doesn't meet San Fran Syncope, she meets OESIL (look it up). That's another study I use for some of these elderly pt's that have syncope and don't meet the criteria but my gut says "no", it includes a few other factors such as age, syncope without prodrome, and CAD (not just CHF). There's also a good LLSA article that I read recently and can't remember where that tried to narrow down these nebulous EKG changes that seem to indicate from the latest literature: anything non sinus, anything LBBB or partial (hemiblock), anything ischemic, etc.. I use OESIL study for those outliers where it validates my gestalt. All these rule systems essentially should validate what your clinical intuition is telling you in the first place.

So (after you've worked her up and made sure she doesn't have hip fx, head bleed, etc...), you've got a pt that's probably both San Fran Syncope positive and OESIL positive, "abnormal" EKG and troponinemia of uncertain significance. NSTEMI? Unsure, because it sounds like she really can't tell you whether she's having any ACS type sx or not but in light of the syncope, it's a possibility. Obviously, she gets ASA. I could easily admit and wait for 2nd trop at 4h and if elevated heparinize her or you could just start the heparin now and stop after 2nd or 3rd enzyme vs let cards/medicine take her off it when they get around to seeing her. I'd leave it up to medicine and think both are not unreasonable approaches.

Admit to tele. Turn over the room. Next pt. Let cards mentally masturbate over the significance of a chronic lateral ST depression with no other changes. Either way, without the troponin, it's an easy syncope admission which you should recognize about 2 minutes into the pt encounter in this case by the sound of it. NSTEMI could also be easily justified as an admitting diagnosis along with the syncope in light of the lack of pt ability to provide more of a history/symptomatology.
 
Yeah I mean like I said, I admitted the patient. This lady was going to be admitted before I even set foot in that room regardless of what any of her workup showed. I guess my question was more about the EKG than the patient. It was in a small rural hospital so no cards and no cath lab. I figured I'd admit (wasn't super impressed by a trop of 0.08) and trend, if it kept trending up then we could send her out to the big city. Which is exactly what I did. I'm not sure what ended up happening to her overnight. I guess my question was, if the depression is slightly more significant (but more than a week out from prior with ST depression noted in the same leads), is it something that needs to be seen by cardiology immediately? Like you all said, it's most likely chronic structural changes. I guess it's the beauty of having a prior.
 
Yeah I mean like I said, I admitted the patient. This lady was going to be admitted before I even set foot in that room regardless of what any of her workup showed. I guess my question was more about the EKG than the patient. It was in a small rural hospital so no cards and no cath lab. I figured I'd admit (wasn't super impressed by a trop of 0.08) and trend, if it kept trending up then we could send her out to the big city. Which is exactly what I did. I'm not sure what ended up happening to her overnight. I guess my question was, if the depression is slightly more significant (but more than a week out from prior with ST depression noted in the same leads), is it something that needs to be seen by cardiology immediately? Like you all said, it's most likely chronic structural changes. I guess it's the beauty of having a prior.

If it's not a STEMI than you don't need Cardiology right away. The data does not show benefit for urgent endovascular intervention on NSTEMIs. So long as your hospital has telemetry and a defibrillator than you have everything this ECG suggests might be needed.
 
That being said, a lot of Cardiologists will tell you otherwise, and, as the doc at the transfer center I wouldn't give you a hard time about this case.
 
Yeah I mean like I said, I admitted the patient. This lady was going to be admitted before I even set foot in that room regardless of what any of her workup showed. I guess my question was more about the EKG than the patient. It was in a small rural hospital so no cards and no cath lab. I figured I'd admit (wasn't super impressed by a trop of 0.08) and trend, if it kept trending up then we could send her out to the big city. Which is exactly what I did. I'm not sure what ended up happening to her overnight. I guess my question was, if the depression is slightly more significant (but more than a week out from prior with ST depression noted in the same leads), is it something that needs to be seen by cardiology immediately? Like you all said, it's most likely chronic structural changes. I guess it's the beauty of having a prior.
Don't forget serial EKGs. EKGs can evolve by the minute. If ST segments go up, emergent cath or lytics and transfer. Otherwise admit to medicine.
 
I had a lady come in last night who had an unwitnessed fall at the NH. I worked her up for cardiac causes among other things. Her EKG showed some lateral ST depression, but the old one had the same depressions noted. Troponin ended up being 0.08 (prior of 0.05 on last admission and she had CHF so it was likely leak). I admitted her anyway but I have never seen "stable" ST depression that was basically unchanged from the prior. It may have been slightly more pronounced in one lead (2mm as opposed to 1mm) but grossly unchanged - lead placement?. She wasn't having any symptoms either. Is it considered significant if you note depression but it's there on the prior? She also had a RBBB noted on prior too, and I know you can see some depression across the precordial leads with that. What do you guys think?

a few thoughts:
RBBB is going to have ST depressions in the precordial leads, however they shouldn't progress past V4 (I'm assuming you mean V5/6 for lateral leads). This could be recurrent ischemia... this could also be LVH with repol abnl causing "ST depressions." depends on what the ekg looked like

Did she have a LAFB or LPFB? An old person with unexplained syncope with bifascicular block or "trifascicular block" (a misnomer) could be intermittent complete heart block and is a IIa or IIb indication for PPM if the other common causes are ruled out

Don't forget serial EKGs. EKGs can evolve by the minute. If ST segments go up, emergent cath or lytics and transfer. Otherwise admit to medicine.

This is not a person you should lyse.